WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[MiaKage]

I think I'll keep my Only War books, also looked up Wrath and Glory, seems a bit too simple for me.

[wander]

I'm happy with my books, was a bastard getting Black Crusade and the few for that in the lead-up to the line getting pulped.

On books, as noone's mentioned yet;

Space Wolves and then Orks have been announced as the next codexs now. Probably will cover July, though Codex Orks could be as late as August.

[TheGlyphstone]

My entire collection is digital PDFs anyways. Hard to sell those as collectibles.

[MiaKage]

I hope Lemans Russ comes back! He's my favorite n.n

[HairyHeretic]

I have a friend in the States who has been trying to track down the Black Crusade Tome of Excess for ages, but it's apparently either rare as hell or going for silly money.

[TheLaughingOne]

Woowoop!! Imperial knight codex coming out soon!!!

[wander]

This Saturday even.

All good if you want an army of three models.  ;D

[TheLaughingOne]

Game update:

VICTORY!!!!

Yes!! My first win!!

So friend and i took some time to look things over and put together a list while familearizing him with space marines for his own little addon group, and he helped me get something together that was a good solid list while avoiding my habits of over accessorizing. The battle was 1000pts... and took almost 6 hours, not counting breaks for bickering, breathers, bullshit,  and bits of food. Not to mention looking up rules and other delays. ... and our battle was literally just "YOU AND ME GONNA FIGHT TIL NOTHIN LEFT!!" and proceeded to beat our action figures against each other.

AND WORTH EVERY DAMN MINUTE.

One tbing we are trying is alternating activations, which added a lot of time to play as trying a new rule idea.
Alternating worked along the lines of:

You move, then i move, you, me, ect, then same into firing and all the other rounds.

We still have some issues, like this puts a hurt on melee some.(house rule is if on your move you can declare charge on in range target, if he hasnt moved, he has option to brace and fire, or fall back, this helps stop things like "well, i roll back Just out of range and fire". Its not as complicated as it sounds, and has worked out well, leaving the ground even for both sides..

And movement, if i have less guys, i am HOSED because its being argued i Have to move, so mygrouo has a couole guys with no real move cause there is no advantage to it, they have a bead on their target, moving would give them penalty, or so forth. If i dont move, i lose them. He still has like, 4 guys left, and saved moving them until well after so now they get to manuver freely, while my guys sit there like idiots watching them drive away.

He argues i have to "anticipate" his movements, but then im still loudly telegraphing and leaving him in the exact same position. Theres no way to say "my guys stop to see whats happening" though is the suggestion of spending a cp like a stratagem to stagger a units move. Other thought i had was a priority thing in movement,heavies, fliers, and transports have to move first, as they are less manuverable they kind of telegraph their moves, then elites, and troops and fast attacks go last as they are made for battlefield mobility. But thats complicating things alot. There might not be a good answer that will make everybody/anybody happy.

The biggest things are games do take a bit longer, you consider moves alot more carefully, not just yours, but your enemies.
Same time... it was SOOO much more fun. It wasnt making all my moves at once, then sitting for 20+ minutes while he makes his moves, then in combat sitting around waiting to make saves and so forth. Your always involved, paying attention, and in the thick of it.

And biggest thing was it eliminated the first round over advantage. Watching several games ive watched a 2000pt army hammered into a 1200pt army or there about at the end of the first shooting phase. ... so thats part of what makes it longer as well.

Either way, god damn was that fun and even if i lost, i would have loved it. And almost did!

My only surviving units were an autocannon/lascannon predator, and the techpriest WHO REPAIRED OVER 13 POINTS OF DAMAGE ON IT over the game.

It was close ad he had his commander, a chimera with autocannon,, heavy bolt, and stubber, and squad with 3 guys left, 1 hotshot and 2 flamers, and a vulture with twin punishers. Blasting the chimera resulted in an explosion, and as he was right next to his troops (5 inches, just getting ready to hop in for protection), and rolled 3 mortal wounds on each. No ground troops meant vukture pulled. And i won, just barely.

[MiaKage]

Twin punisher vulture *drools*

Are flamers any good? It's getting about time that I get back into playing and want to try out my Sisters of Battle n.n

[TheLaughingOne]

Flamers are REALLY good.

Friend usees them to great effect against melee units, since its auto hit, they dont need to roll for overwatch, just the number of hits. And if you roll well the sheer number of dice can chip away at Armour, the downside is they arent as effective against armor, and they are VERY short range. Heav flamers SoB can use are bit longer range and heavier hittiers, and dont suffer the penalty of heavy weapons as they have no to hit. So if used properly, they can be absolutely BRUTAL against things, but they can be Very niche.

And the punisher was actually his Least effective unit in the game!! he made several passes over my troops blasting them with 40 shots, and due to raven guards chaptact most of the initial shots missed, then are a bit stronger then say, marines or guard, so its damage on a 3 up, and no armor penalty so for my marines it was a 3 up to save (and i made sure to keep cover, so now its only a 2+), vehicles were even less threatened.

While a threat, it was more waving a pointyed stick then a knife, made you wary, but didnt do as well as one would expect. eventually i just ignored it until it got to a position to start hitting more vital troops (though my tech priest with his 2+ save just TANKED a full 40 round salvo with out taking any damage thanks to range advantage (was outside 12), bad rolls on his to wound, and that wonderful 2+ base save!!

Still, his models are fucking beautiful, he is in process of getting them together, and next time i'll get some pics of his russes (all of the turrets and sponsons are magnets for quick custom), same for chimera, and his giant fck you battle plane thing i forgot the name of...

[wander]

TLO;

These may fall under your house rules, though here's some things you may not have known about.

On the fall back and fire thing, if a unit falls back out of combat, they cannot shoot afterward unless they have a special rule that allows them to do so (such as the Fly keyword). That unit that fell back also cannot counter-charge after, so you could shoot them and then charge, depending on your weapon load-out.
Also, you do not have to move if you don't want to. Though unsure if 'forced move' is another house rule your circle made.


That said, if you enjoy the aspect of flitting between phases and having a more proactive position in the opponent's turn, I highly recommend you look up Infinity. It has more expensive models (they're metal, though they're also damned sexy), though also is a much smaller scale, ala Kill Team so it kinda evens out. Has a nice mechanic where if the opponent moves a model into the LoS of one of yours, you get to fire your weapon on that model, giving the game that feel of playing more to real-time and giving you more to do and keep an eye out for on your opponent's turn.  :-)

[TheLaughingOne]

The fall back thing is a "fix" to try and keep from nerfing melee completely, as with a back and forth its very easy for you to have moved your melee in close for a charge only for the other guy to move them just out of range with no real issue. We have it so you can declare charge, locking in on one target (you declare, you Have to charge them) or nkt really say and have it as a surprise, like i caught a guy completely unaware by having my empty rhino suddenly charge a bushel of his troops he wasnt paying attention to rwnges with.

The dude who came up with this is actually an almost entirely melee guy, who only plays imperial guard, and cant stand tau. Its kinda funny. He tends to run armour heavy lists as said.

And ive checked into infinity some, and while looks awesome, i dont know anybody interested in it. All my current group only does 40k, and most only really dig the grimdark aspects while having no interest in infinity as just doesnt appeal to them interest wise. Setting just doesnt do it for them.

[HairyHeretic]

Warzone used to have an interesting mechanic, where rather than having distinct phases, you would activate a unit and then everything it did was an action. Moving, shooting, melee, special stuff, all actions. That way you could take all 3 actions to run, to shoot, or whatever combination you wanted. I think that is one of the better mechanics I've come across.

[wander]

Just seems funny to me to homebrew 40k that much, though you're having fun which is the main thing.

I'm beginning to play more Age of Sigmar myself, which has similar rules to 8th edition, though some interesting changes, including a 'Hero Phase' before movement which is a place purely to do your Command Trait along with spells, which work exactly the same as 40k psychic powers though sans Perils.

Melee is handled different in AoS as you're not allowed in the movement phase to pass 3" within an enemy unit. You also have to be within a half inch of the enemy unit for a charge to succeed, so rolling a 2 on a charge is always a failed charge. You then in the Combat Phase get to pile in 3" closer to the nearest models before making your attacks, not afterwards.
Melee Weapons have a range, usually 1-2" so you also have to measure range in Melee which takes a little more time than in 40k, though makes spears/staffs feel different to daggers/swords outside the usual weapon stats.

One other neat thing in AoS is the ability to shoot into melee, including if you're in combat with an enemy unit. 40k has that now with pistols, though in AoS you can do it with all ranged weapons.

[TheLaughingOne]

Yeah, the other guys came up with ot after on dudes 2000 point army got cut to little more then half in the first turn. And not even like he completely flubbed placing his units. I had it happen to me once in first round my imperial knight got nuked by a single LeRus analator as first salvo. Then used everything else to disassemble me in one go. Granted i did setup poorly and had an issue with over accessorizing..

[wander]

I find going over 1,500 can unbalance a game, especially if you are using elitey units. A lot of people play 2k I know, though at that point it really does become more like chess with units getting deleted wholesale. I actually find 1000pt games to be a nice sweet-spot for a good game. Make the table 4x4' and it's a real proper scrap. ^^

Recognising your weaknesses in list-building is a good thing to advance in your skills in play. One thing I like about AoS is that there are no lil extras that cost pts in the army lists. You can spend more points to add more doods into a unit, or spend pts to add in a batallion (read Formation special rules), though that's all. Units can do things like have a banner and/or musician though they're free adds, same as a unit may say something like 'if you have 10 or more in this unit, two models may have (heavy weapon)' though these are always free.

I find it better as I can concentrate on the squad type itself and what works best for what's needed in a list, like debating on anti-infantry blobs, ranged support, character slayers, etc.

[TheLaughingOne]

Yeah, i find i like 1000 points myself, though for space marines that gives them a bit of a limit, they dont really seem to "come to" until about 1500-2000pts. One issue point wise is dude has a thing and wants to play HUGE point armies, llike he talks of putting a pair of 2x4 tables next to each other, then bridge spanning over a 3 foot gap or something, and both sides spend 4000pts... He kinda goes overboard with army sizes.

Side note thing is we, well, they, are running a kinda campaign, little tile map setup and everybody has chosen their own main base. They build a 4000 point army, and each week (as they meet weekly) they build 3 armies from it. Base defense which is 500pts minimum, and they are the static defenses of your home base. and then about 2000 point max for Defensive force to counter one of the other players attacking one of your tiles, and 2000 max to attack another tile to try and take it over. Any units wiped in course of gameplay are erased from your list, but if you have tiles with manufactorums you can roll to spawn a new unit of one you lost. Im not really involved as i only really get to play with one guy, but i help in playtesting some rules, brain storming (this is largely based on an idea i had, though less complicated) ideas, and editing their little rules pamphlet (dear god... The spelling errors, redundant sentences, horrible grammar, and pages with 7-8 pictures in it completely throwing off the formatting of the pages......)

Its still a bit of a mess, but getting refined, and our current players seem to enjoy, and its got some interest from new guys, though some of them are right proper knobs (one dude messaging and declaring "Its almost an hour drive for me to get on there. Sell me on why i want to play with your group")

And thats fair, though i do like the customization on units, its just i got a little to wild, the amount i was spending allowed me to buy a couple extra units to fill out my force, and quite often conflicted with their purposes, so it was just points wasted. Now im getting my guys organized and putting them to good use in positioning, and their units purpose. Now its just learning tactical thinking in a new medium, used to like, RTS, or other turn based games, and WH is a whole different beast. thankfully, even with our new turn order kinda thing its still easy enough to think in terms of regular play style.

One issue is One game is enough to last me like, a couple weeks, thinking over it, looking at where i messed up, what i did right, ect, but duder im playing with.. Man, he could play 2 games each night and not get sick of it i think. 2 games this last week and i was pretty burned out, and not just cause of how long it took. Trying to bring some other games to play, specially as his wife would like to get some social game stuff as well (we had awesome game of munchkin... somehow i ended up with level 3 guy... with a power of like.. 40 from all the gear i picked up..) Pulled out eldritch horror to play.. but upon opening the box realized i was way to tired and hadnt played it in long enough to even get it setup right...

[wander]

I play Death Guard and I also play Custodes. 1000pts is fine.

I have a pair of Helbrutes and a Daemon Prince in my DG force. At 1,500 I'm only really plopping Mortarion down with what I already got.

Apocalypse scale can be fun, though really should be done for a special event. You're adding play time on for the more points you use and that can lead to the burn out you mentioned.

AoS happens to go pretty quick as it seems to me so far to be a bit more lethal, which can be pretty fun at times. I get less headaches playing it trying to think tactics and strategy than 40k. One neat thing about melee in AoS I forgot to mention is chargers don't auto-go first. The player whose turn it is chooses which unit goes first and it goes back and forth until every unit in melee has attacked. There's some strategy there as you need to think which of your units will attack first and what enemy unit you want to get rid of to not have them attack back.

[TheLaughingOne]

Thats fair!

Side note you should especially enjoy Wander,

https://imgur.com/gallery/UFTUrDS Chaos Knight. Nurgle.

[wander]

That's pretty awesome. ^^

I wonder if the Knights Codex does much with Chaos Knights. So far I have Mortarion as my big-smashy thing for the DG.

Right now though I'm going (somewhat) Nurgle via starting up Clan Pestilens in AoS.
I have my Verminlord Corruptor use 'Wither' on the enemy (+1 to wound rolls on withered unit for the whole turn) and then sending in a carpet of Plague Monks after a command of 'Gouge-Tear their Eyes!'... Basically giving the Monks 5 melee attacks each (3 foetid blades + 2 woe-staves), I have them in blobs of at least 20 and they have potential exploding wounds with their Contagion Banners (roll another d6 for each 6 to wound, on 6s the unit get a mortal wound). Also their Bile-chimes gives me a neat -1ap if I roll 6s to wound, so on a withered target that's 5+s to activate the banner and chime abilities.  8-)

They're basically Nurgle as an alpha-strike force.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's pretty awesome. ^^

You do remember we are talking about GW, right? Why would they include Chaos Knights in the same book when they can sell Codex: Chaos Knights as a standalone book?

[wander]

Touche.

I did hear mention they're covered in the Codex, though I'm not looking to buy the thing as I've always thought Knights to be a pretty unbalanced thing tbh.

[TheLaughingOne]

I have IK book, and nothing of Chaos knights (with the whole Imperial part on front, and of course, why sell 1 book when could sell 2)

In the past i've found knights arent quite as OP as would expect, every game i played one with it was usually first to go as its a giant hard to hide firemagnet, the big guns and everything make it to tastey of a target, It actually has few attacks (about 3-4, heavy weapon, carapace, support (maybe 2) and melee). They can pack a wallop if you get them in the right place, but if your opponent has anti armor, dont expect them to last long. Very low customization, toughness 8, wounds 24, 3/5 (and the 5inv is only against ranged, so if enemy has some heavy melee weapons prepare for some hurting)

Their bonuses is a 3+ for melee and ranged, they can fire their heavy weapons with no penalty while moving (a very respectable 12 flat with your first 11 wounds, move Over infantry (so long as dont end within 1 inch),  falling back doesnt stop them from firing weapons, OR charging again, which means if you can get one with a melee (If you can get them in melee, they will MURDER almost everything they come across, 5 attacks with either a strength 14, or strength 16, -3ap or -4 ap, and both options do a flat 6 damage. plus Thunderfists option of if you kill vehicle or monster you can throw it 9 inches for d3 mortals wounds on a 4+ roll.) Give them a thermal cannon or avenger gatling and choose your target preference (avenger is murder on infantry/swarm groups, and can wear down vehicles with the mass of fire and thermal is great at antivehicle, while still blowing chunks out of infantry.

But in the end, your big enough you have no where to hide, good weapons, but cant spread your fire out as much as say.. some tanks, its going to cost you about 400+ points for something good.. On the other hand.. armigers of both flavors are pretty good, and not to high of a cost. ... relatively.

Chaos actually has it better, if by battle scribes setting them up. can take a base chasis and say.. slap on 2 rapid fire battle cannons (72 range, Heavy 2d6, strength 8, ap-2, d3 damage) stick them at the back of your map, and commence bombardment of th enemy (with a pair of heavy stubbers for lights that get close, and their feet for swarms that get to close (holy crap... strength as unit (8), -2ap, and d3 damage. And roll 3 times for each attack. so thats 15 attacks at 3+)

They have some excellent war gear for warlord, knights get some good bonuses (and penalties traits) and all in all, its not TO bad, but they seem more useful for a high point game, or as support for your army. specially as the superheavy detatch only gets you those 3cp...

[TheLaughingOne]

... unless you get a castellion. those are ranged rape monsters.

Plasma decimator spams plasma shots to handle infantry,

Shieldbreaker missiles are a russian roulette shot of 80mm cannon or Nerf dart (and block invuln saves completely, have to rely on your base save -4)

siege breaker cannon (with option of 2 of them, and the cost is so small you might as well)
Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
48" Heavy 2D3, Strength7, ap-1, Damage D3
(for like 11pts more you get 2 twin cannons of that, but only 2 shield breaker missiles as opposed to 4)

and Volcano Lance
80" Heavy D6, Strength14, ap-5, Damage3D3 You can re-roll failed wound rolls when targeting TITANIC units with this weapon.

and 2 sets of twin melta guns.

thats 603pts. And if you dont get to start, and didnt place him last behind some cover, guy your playing is going to shoot EVERYTHING at him in hopes of burning him down... So e very expensive distraction if need be.

[Idej]

I'd like to see something like the Dark Mechanicum come into existence as an army at some point lol