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Author Topic: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**  (Read 3453 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 03:31:06 PM »
Two of those were for show, the third one was labeled "Deus Ex Machina".

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2018, 01:24:37 AM »
One of the group instances in the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMO I used to play was about shutting down a battlestation that could launch small asteroids at planets in a very similar fashion...at least I think it was based on a similar premise.

No one is going to claim physics isn't being followed in a science fantasy like Star Wars...but I think the hyperspace suicide was a two-edged sword in the film.  It was very anime-esque, especially in the silent view of the impact--I think it was in many ways an homage to such actions in anime, possibly there to appeal to fans of anime outside the U.S.  Of course, letting the genie out of the bottle, the move is going to have to be explained away somehow in books or other materials outside of the films, so as to not lead to the 'why doesn't everyone do that' complaint.  Or Disney just doesn't care.

Regardless of the logic or plot-worthiness of it, I think it was presented very well, and was emotionally impactful to the story.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2018, 11:29:37 AM »
I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but I had some thoughts on Poe.

He should be executed.  First he disobeyed orders with the bombers resulting in most of them being destroyed.  Then he launched an unsanctioned mission that revealed a military deception that cost the Rebellion probably 7/8ths its numbers since they went from several starships to being able to all fit in the Millenium Falcon.  Not to mention the outright mutiny. He is actually the greatest enemy of the Rebellion.  He has shown to be more dangerous to the Rebellion than the First Order was.

What he did was not a simple mistakes or something, it was outright unwarranted challenges to the chain of command, dereliction of duty, and disobeying orders.  I can see why the Admiral didn't share the plan with him, he was unreliable and he had no 'need to know' which is a big aspect of military deceptions.  He proved he was unreliable, doubled down on it, and then went all in on it.  He was the ultimate insider threat, the one that doesn't even realize he is a threat.  Leia was wrong to just demote him in the first place.  He should have been cut off after the bomber incident. 

Having served in the military to include military deception experience myself, he was the most despicable character of the movie.     

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2018, 09:21:33 PM »
I know this thread has been quiet for a while, but I had some thoughts on Poe.

He should be executed.  First he disobeyed orders with the bombers resulting in most of them being destroyed.  Then he launched an unsanctioned mission that revealed a military deception that cost the Rebellion probably 7/8ths its numbers since they went from several starships to being able to all fit in the Millenium Falcon.  Not to mention the outright mutiny. He is actually the greatest enemy of the Rebellion.  He has shown to be more dangerous to the Rebellion than the First Order was.

What he did was not a simple mistakes or something, it was outright unwarranted challenges to the chain of command, dereliction of duty, and disobeying orders.  I can see why the Admiral didn't share the plan with him, he was unreliable and he had no 'need to know' which is a big aspect of military deceptions.  He proved he was unreliable, doubled down on it, and then went all in on it.  He was the ultimate insider threat, the one that doesn't even realize he is a threat.  Leia was wrong to just demote him in the first place.  He should have been cut off after the bomber incident. 

Having served in the military to include military deception experience myself, he was the most despicable character of the movie.     
Then you seem to forget what is expected of officers (American, at least). The Resistance either ran the op brilliantly (affirming Poe's actions) or stupidly. PM if you want to discuss further.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2018, 09:28:18 PM »
Then you seem to forget what is expected of officers (American, at least). The Resistance either ran the op brilliantly (affirming Poe's actions) or stupidly. PM if you want to discuss further.

If you have something to say I think it can be shared with the class...

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2018, 09:40:40 PM »
If you have something to say I think it can be shared with the class...
Failing to account for a known quantity like Poe Dameron is piss poor planning and horrible fieldcraft. Poe's gonna Poe. That's about all I can say publicly.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #81 on: January 27, 2018, 09:25:54 AM »
That's about all I can say publicly.

I don't think that's literally true. I think you're perfectly capable of saying more, but you're choosing not to for reasons that aren't entirely clear. Regardless, you don't want to elaborate, so I'm just going to let it go. Like Hitch said: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #82 on: January 27, 2018, 02:28:10 PM »
Failing to account for a known quantity like Poe Dameron is piss poor planning and horrible fieldcraft. Poe's gonna Poe. That's about all I can say publicly.

If you are having to build allowances for a single specific person in your plan, maybe that person is not somebody you want in your unit in the first place.  Either that or the US Military dropped the dropped 80% figure and went complete head down every rabbit hole planning. 

And was I have never seen a regulation that said need to know should be granted to hot heads that don’t obey orders. 

As for the known factor, I blame Leila for that.  Disobeying orders and losing an entire asset warrants more than a demotion. 
 

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #83 on: January 27, 2018, 02:39:26 PM »
If you are having to build allowances for a single specific person in your plan, maybe that person is not somebody you want in your unit in the first place. 
It's not an allowance for one individual, it's an allowance for a senior officer. It's like not making an allowance for Patton being Patton.

And was I have never seen a regulation that said need to know should be granted to hot heads that don’t obey orders. 
Need to know has degrees. "Bob, you're going to screw up an ongoing op. Settle down." And if he doesn't, you put him on ice for awhile. It's not like that would be beyond the capabilities of an admiral on a resistance ship....

As for the known factor, I blame Leila for that.  Disobeying orders and losing an entire asset warrants more than a demotion.
Maybe the general figured that succeeding in the mission and destroying a dreadnought was worth the losses. The 8th AF certainly did in WWII. And you've just proved the point. Conduct of the operation is a commander's call. Leia kept Poe in the game knowing what how he operates. It's not an insider threat when the commander makes an affirmative decision, it's a component of the plan.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #84 on: January 27, 2018, 03:42:09 PM »
Quote
It's not an allowance for one individual, it's an allowance for a senior officer. It's like not making an allowance for Patton being Patton.
He was not a senior commander anymore.  Second, there was a change of command after Leia was injured.

Quote
Need to know has degrees. "Bob, you're going to screw up an ongoing op. Settle down." And if he doesn't, you put him on ice for awhile. It's not like that would be beyond the capabilities of an admiral on a resistance ship....
Second, Holdo had almost that exact conversation with Poe, to include reminding him of his demotion.

Quote
Maybe the general figured that succeeding in the mission and destroying a dreadnought was worth the losses. The 8th AF certainly did in WWII. And you've just proved the point. Conduct of the operation is a commander's call. Leia kept Poe in the game knowing what how he operates. It's not an insider threat when the commander makes an affirmative decision, it's a component of the plan.
Even Leia demoted him, the screen showing the lost squadron didn't demonstrate that either.  But it was not Leia's call for him to launch an unauthorized mission after that.  It was not Holdo's call to launch Rose and Finn out that ultimately revealed the deception. 

So far, your arguments have not shown that Poe should be resolved of this.  It was solely Poe's call to launch that mission that was not part of the plan. Poe didn't do his part of the plan, despite being given orders to stay in his lane by Holdo.  He exceeded his authority to the point of mutiny even.  Nothing you have said justifies mutiny.  The deaths of the Rebels are on Poe's hands.  It was his call, and only his call.  A call exceeding his authority, and against the orders given to him.  Both in the case of the loss of the squadron, and the loss of the deception and its consequences.

Conduct of the mission is the commander's call.  Poe was not the commander. Leia was, then Holdo was.  Both gave him orders to the contrary of what he did.  At Poe's level, his calls were not only wrong, but in the face of receiving orders not do it. 

Offline greenknight

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #85 on: January 27, 2018, 05:03:35 PM »
Poe Dameron acts. He saw what he assessed as a betrayal of the Resistance and initiated an operation against it. Anyone should be commended for that, if they're right. He was a known variable that either the Resistance accounted for, which means the command endorsed everything he did, or they didn't, which means the command was responsible for everything they failed to prevent him from doing. Holdo didn't remove him (or bring him all in) or control a narrative to focus him where his blind actions would best serve, and so her operation suffered for it.

Feel free to prefer charges against Commander Dameron, I'm curious how that would go.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2018, 10:46:07 PM »
Key words:
Quote
... if they're right.
Poe was wrong on every count in the movie. 

Poe is not a role model in this movie.  He unwittingly killed the combat power of the Rebellion.  He exceeded his authority, especially as only "Captain Dameron."  Two ranks below his previous rank of Commander, he was removed.  He disobeyed orders.  He lost an asset. He was demoted. His unauthorized mission revealed a deception to the enemy that resulted in the Rebellion becoming combat ineffective.  There is nothing commendable about his actions in that movie. 

Looks like I'm not the only one who feels that way: https://nerdist.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-failed-poe-dameron-holdo/

Quote
Let’s be honest: Poe Dameron should be in the brig or shot out the nearest airlock. The Resistance isn’t a feel-good clubhouse; it is a military, and Poe went AWOL. He got people killed. He started a mutiny and held his commanding officers at gunpoint. No matter how hard-pressed the Resistance is for pilots, Poe is now a risk that can’t be allowed to stand. Letting him roam free on the Millennium Falcon sends a message that subordination will be met with not even a slap on the wrist.

The author also seems to feel Poe is a sexist,
Quote
Within his story, over and over again Poe ignores the orders of his female commanders. He uses his personal relationship with Leia to undermine her authority, getting an entire bombing squad killed. He bristles under the command of Holdo, clearly put out that she won’t share her plan with him. Poe thinks he knows better. But, by taking matters into his own hands, Poe merely gets more people killed. If not for him, Finn and Rose never would’ve gone to Canto Bight and met Benicio del Toro’s DJ, who then would never have tipped off the First Order about the transports.

The author doesn't seem to know what AWOL means.  Finn and Rose actually went "AWOL," but Poe sent them.

But Greenknight, obviously we are going to have to agree to disagree.  In my opinion, Poe is down there with Hux.  One is a spineless, suck up sob, the other a brash, unhinged loose cannon.  Opposite sides of a metal slug, but both worthless and neither worth looking up too. 

I think the writers wanted to expand on the "failure is the best teacher" aspect of the story, but they went too far with it for Poe.  Poe destroyed the Rebellion in its current form. 

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #87 on: January 27, 2018, 11:22:06 PM »
Do you also have issue with Luke turning off his targeting computer and using the Force? I'm just curious.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #88 on: January 28, 2018, 01:12:25 AM »
Do you also have issue with Luke turning off his targeting computer and using the Force? I'm just curious.

When was he actually ordered to use it?  Someone just commented to him that he turned it off.  Another comment was made using an “if” statement, “if you can’t see it, the computer can hit it.” 

Also, he accomplished his mission, and he didn’t upend a larger effort in doing so. 

With Poe, he was directly ordered not to do something that he did anyway and attempted mutiny.  In both cases his action cost lives and undermined operations.  Greenknigt’s comment, “if they were right,” is a huge factor.  Luke was right and it supported the mission, and he was not ordered to do/not do something.  Poe was wrong, went against the command and orders, and cost the Rebellion hundreds of people.  Yes, it is subjective, but results matter.  Luke saved lives, Poe cost lives and defied orders when he did so.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #89 on: January 28, 2018, 01:46:05 AM »
And how do you feel about Finn?

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2018, 01:52:22 AM »
I looked up the script for Episode IV and Luke was not ordered to use the targeting computer.  I was wrong about the “if” part, the conversation was actually doubt about the computer being able to hit it. 
Quote
My scope shows the tower, but I can't
                         see the exhaust port! Are you sure
                         the computer can hit it?   

And when Luke turns off the computer:

Quote
  BASE VOICE
                              (over speaker)
                         His computer's off. Luke, you switched
                         off your targeting computer. What's
                         wrong?

                                     LUKE
                              (over speaker)
                         Nothing. I'm all right.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2018, 02:08:25 AM »
And how do you feel about Finn?

Finn did try to desert.... again.  The first time was more of a defection of course.  The second time was desertion when Rose caught him.  Poe influenced them.  They were even more unwitted than Poe.  They both knew they were unauthorized to leave the ship, heck Rose was even on guard to stop attempts to leave the ship.  They are culpable to Poe’s crimes, but Poe gave the orders and Poe did the actual mutiny.  Rose specifically knew they were not allowed to leave the ship.  She willingly abandoned her post as well.  Again, nothing commendable about them in my opinion. 

Hollywood writers seem to have this trend going that standing up to any authority is noble and they play on emotion, not logic.  In doing so, to me they ruined not only the original characters, but the new ones as well. 

Yes, you question or report illegal orders, but nothing Holdo did was illegal or immoral.  When Finn and Rose figured out the tracking, that information should have gotten to the Chain of Command, but Poe stopped that too. 

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #92 on: January 28, 2018, 02:22:40 AM »
Hollywood writers seem to have this trend going that standing up to any authority is noble and they play on emotion, not logic. 

There is also a rich history of military characters and organization acting like "feel good clubhouses" - The Dirty Dozen and Top Gun immediately spring to mind.

Offline Yvellakitsune

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #93 on: January 28, 2018, 02:52:46 AM »
There is also a rich history of military characters and organization acting like "feel good clubhouses" - The Dirty Dozen and Top Gun immediately spring to mind.

There is.  And that still doesn’t make a character commendable referring back to my original stance.

  On the current subject of plot devices...  It’s a place to potentially build the redemption of a character.  Top Gun did that and Maverick became a pilot the Navy needed.   I think The Last Jedi attempted to do that, but failed at it by taking it too far.  Top Gun balanced it more.  Maverick broke rules, but he didn’t cause the carrier to get sunk and only get a slap on the wrist. 

A lot of that comes from writers who just don’t Know and are too lazy to bother to research the subject, or simply don’t care because it fits a formula.


Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #94 on: January 28, 2018, 03:37:44 AM »
At the time, I'd say they probably didn't want to hold an immediate court martial based on the fact that they were on the run from the First Order. So when he openly disobeyed orders and endangered their plan, he was disabled, and his punishment put off until they were all safe. Aside from that, considering the kind of casualties that the Rebels had taken, they likely didn't want to put a further blow to morale trying and possibly executing someone that was up until that moment seen as something of a hero to the rebels. His personal relationship with Leia aside, the decision was likely necessary (for morale), political and spur of the moment.

And once the dust cleared, there wouldn't be much of a military infrastructure left to try and court martial him, and if there were, he'd be right at the top of that infrastructure, because despite his demotion, he is still considered a leader by many of the surviving rebels, and as such, some sort of leadership would be necessary.

I'm not saying that he was in the right, as I found his actions a bit abrasive and definitely unnecessarily destructive. I can just see the reasoning as to why they would either put off punishing him properly or dispense with it altogether under those particular circumstances.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #95 on: January 28, 2018, 03:56:42 AM »
Does all of this bad stuff really hinge on Poe being kept out of the loop?

Hypothetically, if Holdo had decided to tell Poe about the plan, is there a sense that he would have behaved differently, or is the character portrayed such that he would have taken the same course of action but with the additional justification that he thought the plan would be ineffective and he could formulate a better response to the First Order?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2018, 11:30:34 AM »
Does all of this bad stuff really hinge on Poe being kept out of the loop?

Hypothetically, if Holdo had decided to tell Poe about the plan, is there a sense that he would have behaved differently, or is the character portrayed such that he would have taken the same course of action but with the additional justification that he thought the plan would be ineffective and he could formulate a better response to the First Order?

Personally, I think he would have. The fact that he was entrusted with finding R2 in TFA shows he is actually capable of extended work without supervision - and more to the point, the Resistance had trusted him with solo operation of that sort. So he can't be a completely incompetent renegade.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2018, 11:45:47 AM »
There's a buffet of bad decisions. I'll start with Admiral Hunger Games and Breathes-in-Space, just to show I'm being as objective as possible here.

AHG and BiS:
  • Fail to hold and debrief an intelligence asset.

Poe:
  • Withheld vital intelligence from his commanding officers.
  • Violated the chain of command
  • Led a mutiny and encouraged others to do the same.

Rose:
  • Went AWOL
  • Stole and allowed to be destroyed Resistance matériel.
  • Withheld vital intelligence from her commanding officers.
  • Violated the laws of Planet Casino
  • Escaped from lawful imprisonment (risking countless lives and doing property damage in the process).
  • Participated in grand theft spaceship.

Finn:
  • Violated the laws of Planet Casino
  • Escaped from lawful imprisonment  (risking countless lives and doing property damage in the process).
  • Participated in grand theft spaceship.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 11:48:30 AM by Regina Minx »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2018, 12:45:31 PM »
Don't forget "Attempted to desert his post in the middle of a battle" to Finn's list of crimes. That's as bad as mutiny in most military law codes.

Online Regina Minx

Re: Last Jedi! **SPOILERS**
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2018, 12:47:16 PM »
Don't forget "Attempted to desert his post in the middle of a battle" to Finn's list of crimes. That's as bad as mutiny in most military law codes.

In the interest of "benefit of the doubt extending", I'm not assuming that Finn is a member of the Resistance in a formal way.