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Author Topic: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*  (Read 3650 times)

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Offline MizerTopic starter

Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« on: December 15, 2017, 07:29:26 AM »
Oh Last Jedi you had such potential and promise. Instead you are weighed down by stupid writing, stupid characters, and blatant Disneyfication. Your entire first half manages to drag down a movie that admittedly has really fun and good scenes, making me even more angry because there are GLIMMERS of how good you could have been.

Someone told me going into the movie that it was shot for shot Empire Strikes Back. To which I say "HA HA!! ....No." No they would made a far better movie if they had copied Empire Strikes Back.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 04:45:45 PM by Mizer »

Offline RedRose

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2017, 07:48:03 AM »
I regret watching the "Rey" one and probably will not be watching newer one...

Offline SithLordOfSnark

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2017, 08:22:06 AM »
I'll still be seeing it just because I'd be a horrible Star Wars fan if I didn't, but thanks for the heads up. :)

Offline NicciKotor

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2017, 09:06:36 AM »
People are having a hard time grasping is that this movie was supposed to be depressing. It's the required emotional low so the victories in the next movie are even better. So yes, it is akin to Empire.

Offline Mathim

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2017, 12:05:33 PM »
After Force Awakens, I was like, oh, okay, so they're just not even trying anymore, huh? So I quit. Not going a step further. Didn't bother with Rogue One, wasn't going to bother with this one either but now I'm not even letting my friend who wants to see it drag me with him.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2017, 02:39:45 PM »
I thought it was amazing character you think would be alive at the end weren't and ones you swear should die - didn't. It had a nod to the Hoth battle at the end on a salt planet so it was white with red salt underneath and desperate plans one that FAILED badly. And Luke was played like a boss. Rey is maturing into a proper Jedi and I like they didn't do a full reveal leave some things to speculate on for the next movie if they ever reveal who they are or is she an ancient force avatar of some kind? And the rear admiral was cute and forgot the first rule of being in the rebelling side the long shot stupid plans tend to work just remember the attack on the first death star. Go with the crazy people sometimes and let them loose and go for the hail mary. But they won the way the rebels do with hope and a dream of what could be.

I give it an 'A' grade for one hell of a popcorn movie.  ;D


Offline AmberStarfire

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2017, 11:55:44 AM »
I didn't think it was bad at all. You can tell so much work went into that movie in every way. I loved it. :)

I wanted to stay in the cinema and watch it again.

Offline TheHighwayHitman

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2017, 12:07:51 PM »
Is it really that bad? Or is it bias because the original trilogy is so good? Is it like the Star Trek reboots where technology is what makes it worth watching for the affects alone?

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2017, 03:10:33 PM »
Was the original trilogy 'good' it wasn't special the same basic plot worked in the Lord of the Ring Trilogy, Chronicle of Narnia and other lets be frank tropes of the hero or heroes (Narnia) rising up from obscurity and after mentoring and training or fate get to fight and defeat some big bad. The new Trilogy started there but is tossing some things on their heads the big bad is Ren not Stoke and its clear Rey could be a flawed heroine who knows if she is the big heroine or will someone else be that she could die in 9 and her powers pass to Fin maybe. They aren't going to play it safe and clearly will keep everyone guessing.

I like they are using the tropes but then messing with them its refreshing, I still wanted a Jar Jar cameo in the casino as a 'visiting diplomat from Naboo' maybe with a wife and adult child it would have been fun for my dad and made his day, maybe grabbing a fish with his tongue and looking around.

Offline Shekinah

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2017, 03:58:38 PM »
I kinda am with Amber on this one, I really loved it and wanted to stay and watch it again.
Though I also loved what they did with Luke, kinda made it so that he wasn't unfailable and the perfect Jedi but also gave in to his fears.

Also Ruby, kinda hard for Jar Jar to make a cameo as well he probably will be dead bcz of old age. After all he was already mature during the first three movies when Luke and Leia were born. Now those two are basically well seniors in age. And a gungan lifespan is just the same as a human's sooooooo yeah not possible.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2017, 04:05:16 PM »
Okay Jar Jar Binks Jr. and well my dad would have loved a Jar Jar moment even if a similar looking son.  ;D

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2017, 05:30:16 PM »
Jar Jar was mentioned in recent Disney canon extended material of being an ostracised old street jester in the time following the Battle of Endor, he explains he is ostracised due to the belief of him helping the Empire (as technically he did give the deciding vote to put Palpatine in that level of power). He ends up adopting a disfigured orphan and that he'd train him to become a clown too.

Source is the Aftermath: Empire's End novel, he's mentioned already as being old in this time (5 ABY-ish) and given the new trilogy is set 30 years after that, he'd be in his 80s if he was to appear. More than likely his adopted son may appear in a future film.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2017, 06:02:34 PM »
Noooooo he was the dark sith lord everyone knows that just watch the films the Supreme Chancellor was his pawn, while he slide in and manipulated the Jedi and the Senate to his dark will. All this Jar Jar hate ruined the true plot.  >:(

Offline TheHighwayHitman

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2017, 08:01:04 PM »
The thing Ruby, tha  I need yo point out is that the original Star Wars trilogy came out before any of the others you mentioned. So following a similar format is actually copying. Yes, the LotR novels were first, but we're talking cinema. If we go to the LotR novels we have to also note that the movies don't exactly follow them.

Star Wars is also, in mu mind, one of the originals when it comes to making you cheer for the Villain. Darth Vader is too tbis day, a fan favorite. He made being the bad guy cool.

As they say in Clerks 2, "There is only one return, and it is of the Jedi. Not the King."

As for Jar-Jar? I hope I am not the only one who can't stand him. :p

Offline SithLordOfSnark

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2017, 08:46:35 PM »
The thing Ruby, tha  I need yo point out is that the original Star Wars trilogy came out before any of the others you mentioned. So following a similar format is actually copying. Yes, the LotR novels were first, but we're talking cinema. If we go to the LotR novels we have to also note that the movies don't exactly follow them.

Star Wars is also, in mu mind, one of the originals when it comes to making you cheer for the Villain. Darth Vader is too tbis day, a fan favorite. He made being the bad guy cool.

As they say in Clerks 2, "There is only one return, and it is of the Jedi. Not the King."

As for Jar-Jar? I hope I am not the only one who can't stand him. :p

You're really not.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2017, 08:47:49 PM »
It just would be funny, since he is such a un-liked character.  ;D

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2017, 02:22:11 AM »
My opinion is no better or worse than anyone else's, but, like everyone else, it is unique.  I'm old enough to have seen Episode IV when I was eight years old, and lived the wonder of it.  I was eleven when Empire Strikes Back came out, and Luke's coming of age in that really had a deep impact on my own psyche.  I didn't like the Ewoks so much, but did love the plot and final arc of Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.  I didn't hate the prequels as much as many older fans did, but took them as they were.  By that point, though, I had begun to understand the concept of 'you can't go home again' in life.

I was happy with The Force Awakens, understood it for what it was--a bridge for younger generations into the Star Wars series--and recognized it was, like any work of art, both flawed and subject to interpretation.  I placed it above the Prequels, but below the original series.  I loved Rogue One.  My dad sort of raised me on war movies, and it came off just like one of those.

And now I come to The Last Jedi.  Well, I saw it with my son, who is no Star Wars fan.  He mentioned many times to me the last few weeks, he wasn't looking forward to seeing it with me.  He's from a different generation, one that isn't impressed by the original series, nor is he from the prior generation who looked fondly on the Prequels.  He's a Harry Potter kinda fan, loved Homestuck, played and followed Undertale, big fan of Markiplier and JackSepticEye...a different cultural foundation for him.

He came out of The Last Jedi gushing.  Has a crush on Kylo Ren now.  Thought Rose was adorable.  Cheered at several sections.  I loved the film, but my son was made a new Star Wars fan with this movie, after seeing all the ones before it and not being won over.

Every generation has their touchstones, and prior generations tend to act puzzled and upset when newer generations don't venerate their favorites.  It's awesome when something comes along that unites generations.  The first Star Wars was like that, for me, my parents, and my grandparents.  Maybe this new one is the same, for some people.

Sure, it had flaws.  There was hokey dialogue in places, but every Star Wars movie has had that--it's kind of a given with the genre.  There were obvious Disney product placements--porgs?--to sell merchandise to kids.  There were plot points I would have written differently--Luke's basic demeanor, Snoke's...well...arc, Rey's continued lack of training--but there were far, far more fantastic moments in it.  Laura Dern's final action, played out in the silence of space--then punctuated by a sudden shockwave--was surprisingly powerful.  Rose's action towards the end aimed at Finn was heroic.  And Luke stepping out towards the end just made the hairs on my arms stand up.  I thought the film was epic, and only topped by A New Hope and Empire.

The franchise evolves, like everything that is alive.  My headcanon doesn't matter to whatever director helms a new Star Wars movie.  I'll never make a Star Wars film--I look forward to seeing what they will create.  If I want to create Star Wars, I'll do it here as an RPG :)

Offline Shekinah

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2017, 02:30:51 AM »
My opinion is no better or worse than anyone else's, but, like everyone else, it is unique.  I'm old enough to have seen Episode IV when I was eight years old, and lived the wonder of it.  I was eleven when Empire Strikes Back came out, and Luke's coming of age in that really had a deep impact on my own psyche.  I didn't like the Ewoks so much, but did love the plot and final arc of Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.  I didn't hate the prequels as much as many older fans did, but took them as they were.  By that point, though, I had begun to understand the concept of 'you can't go home again' in life.

I was happy with The Force Awakens, understood it for what it was--a bridge for younger generations into the Star Wars series--and recognized it was, like any work of art, both flawed and subject to interpretation.  I placed it above the Prequels, but below the original series.  I loved Rogue One.  My dad sort of raised me on war movies, and it came off just like one of those.

And now I come to The Last Jedi.  Well, I saw it with my son, who is no Star Wars fan.  He mentioned many times to me the last few weeks, he wasn't looking forward to seeing it with me.  He's from a different generation, one that isn't impressed by the original series, nor is he from the prior generation who looked fondly on the Prequels.  He's a Harry Potter kinda fan, loved Homestuck, played and followed Undertale, big fan of Markiplier and JackSepticEye...a different cultural foundation for him.

He came out of The Last Jedi gushing.  Has a crush on Kylo Ren now.  Thought Rose was adorable.  Cheered at several sections.  I loved the film, but my son was made a new Star Wars fan with this movie, after seeing all the ones before it and not being won over.

Every generation has their touchstones, and prior generations tend to act puzzled and upset when newer generations don't venerate their favorites.  It's awesome when something comes along that unites generations.  The first Star Wars was like that, for me, my parents, and my grandparents.  Maybe this new one is the same, for some people.

Sure, it had flaws.  There was hokey dialogue in places, but every Star Wars movie has had that--it's kind of a given with the genre.  There were obvious Disney product placements--porgs?--to sell merchandise to kids.  There were plot points I would have written differently--Luke's basic demeanor, Snoke's...well...arc, Rey's continued lack of training--but there were far, far more fantastic moments in it.  Laura Dern's final action, played out in the silence of space--then punctuated by a sudden shockwave--was surprisingly powerful.  Rose's action towards the end aimed at Finn was heroic.  And Luke stepping out towards the end just made the hairs on my arms stand up.  I thought the film was epic, and only topped by A New Hope and Empire.

The franchise evolves, like everything that is alive.  My headcanon doesn't matter to whatever director helms a new Star Wars movie.  I'll never make a Star Wars film--I look forward to seeing what they will create.  If I want to create Star Wars, I'll do it here as an RPG :)

*runs over and gives a hug if that's okay*
Thank you for that comment, made me really happy reading that.

Online Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2017, 05:29:11 AM »
I loved The Last Jedi!

Did it have its weaker moments? Sure! Like any movie in my opinion. I don’t, however, judge movies on the particular dialogue or acting qualities and certainly not on any technical kind of movie making qualities. I judge a film by how much I loved watching it, how much I enjoyed it and how much I want to see it again. All three those categories were big wins with this movie. I thought it even better than Force Awakens. I liked Force awakens a lot, but I thought Rey was a bit... meh, but she really came into her own in this new movie. My wife loved it, too, and till Force awakens, she wasn’t even a Star Wars fan.

Luke skywalker’s finale was stunning, to be honest and despite me expecting it, I still wished it could have gone a little bit differently as he is my favourite character of the entire franchise.

My advice: go see it! Especially before determining whether you think it is good or not.

Offline Nico

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2017, 05:42:08 AM »
I usually do not post in such threads, but since it popped up and we saw it last evening..

I loved it. But, as with all things, tastes differ.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 10:52:50 AM by Nico »

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2017, 11:39:38 AM »
Quote
*runs over and gives a hug if that's okay*
Thank you for that comment, made me really happy reading that.

Hugs are always okay with me :)

Offline mia h

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2017, 11:44:14 AM »
Someone told me going into the movie that it was shot for shot Empire Strikes Back.
I'm guessing the person in question never saw Empire.
Imperial probe droids - Nope
Giant space worms - Nope
Flying city - Nope
Jedi gets hand chopped off -Nope
etc. etc.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2017, 12:04:38 PM »
It's really simple with me. I didn't like VII so I'm not going to watch any of the other ones. I'll always hold that Star Wars has more to do with what age you watch it at more than the quality of the actual films being presented, and I'm sticking by that. I thought Force Awakens was so badly done with Rey being grossly mishandled and such a Mary Sue that I don't think there's a fertile enough foundation for a solid trilogy. If another generation of kids can like it though, more power to them.

Offline National Acrobat

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2017, 04:21:30 PM »
As a long time fan who saw A New Hope when it came out multiple times in the theatre at the age of 8, I've loved Star Wars my entire life, and I loved the Last Jedi, as did my kids, who range in age from 21 to 11. Empire is my favorite of them all. It is time to move the series to a different style, and evolve, and they are doing it. I personally thought it was a great movie, and I look forward to Episode 9.

Part of the problem with Star Wars, is that everyone has an idea of what they think should be in the movies and how the story should evolve, and has their own hopes and expectations. Film makers will never meet those. In my own close circle of friends, each and every one of them had different expectations for this movie, each one of them had an idea of what they thought the plot should be. None of them expected any of this, and I think it's way past time we start to get Star Wars movies that don't follow a safe formula.

That's just my opinion though, it's no better or worse than anyone else's opinion.

Offline Kuroneko

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2017, 04:28:17 PM »
I also thought it was great. The torch has been passed to a new generation,as it should be.

Offline MizerTopic starter

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2017, 04:45:29 PM »
Just so many things happened in the movie that I could not forgive or look past. 

For one, why couldn't the Star Destroyers keep up with the Resistance ships?  Star Destroyers are really fast, despite their size.  And, if they can't keep up with the Resistance ship, why not have other Star Destroyers come out of lightspeed in front of them and block their route?

Why couldn't the Admiral tell them where they were going?  What was so secret about that planet that she couldn't just say "Oh yeah, we have an abandoned base on a planet that we can reactivate and hide out until help arrives."  She kept talking about hope, well you know what would have given the crew hope?  Knowing they had a place they could still go and a possible plan of action.

What was so evil about the hole in the ground?  Luke says it's a place of great evil to go along with the great good, but all that's down there is that weird mirror wall.  So what exactly is the evil?

If Finn knew the Star Destroyers were capable of tracking them through hyperspace, why didn't he warn them of that originally?  He clearly knew they had the capability because he was able to lead the mechanic girl and Benecio Del Toro right to it.  And on that subject, HOW were they able to track the ships through hyperspace?  There wasn't a relay on the ship.  They weren't using some kind of Force connection between Kylo and Leia.  They just... were able to.  I guess that tracker ran on plotonium.

What was the point of having Captain Phasma return?  She was a completely pointless character and she got killed off again almost as soon as she came back.  And Benecio Del Toro, what was his point?  He was supposed to be some kind of big hacker but nothing he did seemed really to fit a master hacker character.

The whole relationship between Finn and the mechanic girl was so Disney it was painful, the worst of which being her line about "protecting and fighting the things we love."

Taking Snoke out the way they did, are you serious?  Way to waste a character that actually was pretty interesting.

And the worst offender of all, Leia going space swimming.  I don't care what the Force says, it can't protect you from being spaced for five minutes.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2017, 05:20:59 AM »
My take on this half the fans are hardcore fans who loved Star Wars and watched the TV animated series maybe and read some of the books and other media and are picky about what is wrong with everything not 'Canon' or 'Legends'.

Then there is the ordinary fan they liked the movies, maybe even Jar Jar Binks (go Jar Jar  ;D ), and buy a bucket of popcorn with butter and just watch the movies as fun sci-fi movies and enjoy the fun which is what I am and my dad.

That explains the Rotten Tomatoes viewer rating of 53% last time I looked this simple split.


Offline mia h

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2017, 07:04:01 AM »
You know it's possible to be a hardcore fan and still enjoy the movie. Although anyone who likes Jar Jar isn't ordinary or even normal for that matter  :P

Offline WindFish

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2017, 07:14:39 AM »
As a long time fan who saw A New Hope when it came out multiple times in the theatre at the age of 8, I've loved Star Wars my entire life, and I loved the Last Jedi, as did my kids, who range in age from 21 to 11. Empire is my favorite of them all. It is time to move the series to a different style, and evolve, and they are doing it. I personally thought it was a great movie, and I look forward to Episode 9.

Part of the problem with Star Wars, is that everyone has an idea of what they think should be in the movies and how the story should evolve, and has their own hopes and expectations. Film makers will never meet those. In my own close circle of friends, each and every one of them had different expectations for this movie, each one of them had an idea of what they thought the plot should be. None of them expected any of this, and I think it's way past time we start to get Star Wars movies that don't follow a safe formula.

That's just my opinion though, it's no better or worse than anyone else's opinion.

This. Right here. I wish there was a way we could like posts on E.

Franchises are meant to evolve, especially one as old as Star Wars. I think at some point some fans need to accept this and realize that the filmmakers aren't going to cater to their every expectation, and we'd all be happier. Just because a film doesn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean it's bad.

I for one am glad that this movie was willing to take risks and break from established patterns.

Online Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2017, 07:20:14 AM »
This. Right here. I wish there was a way we could like posts on E.

Franchises are meant to evolve, especially one as old as Star Wars. I think at some point some fans need to accept this and realize that the filmmakers aren't going to cater to their every expectation, and we'd all be happier. Just because a film doesn't live up to your expectations doesn't mean it's bad.

I for one am glad that this movie was willing to take risks and break from established patterns.

+1000

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2017, 07:42:52 AM »
All I know is I got the original trilogy (well VHS remasters of the original trilogies) and loved it. Saw the prequels starting at Phantom Menace at ten and loved them (especially Attack of the Clones). Trust me when I say, Jar-Jar is not that bad when you're a ten-year-old, it's actually really funny.

I saw The Force Awakens and after Rey's third skill of impossible destiny I never wanted to be out of a theater so bad in my life and I sat through Cloverfield (which should probably be a ding on JJ Abrams... eh... "talent". The writing was boring and stilted, and the great glimmers of the six movies of the past were there, but it just felt like it was a movie made to tick boxes. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they were the (honestly flawed) vision of a director, not a film assembled by marketing committee, and that's saying something when you know how much Lucas loved his merch rights.

Now I get that the Hero's Journey is a really an arch-narrative that involves checking off boxes, but it doesn't exactly have to be super obvious, and like I said earlier they didn't even do that right, quashing any hopes I had that a sequel could build off such poorly laid foundations (no I haven't seen the Last Jedi, and I'm probably not going to).

So here's my take on everything I've seen. I went back some years ago and watched all six movies in the original order to prepare for The Force Awakens, and thinking about it as critically as possible the original trilogy is not sci-fi writing magic, and the prequels aren't a total garbage fire. They're actually on par with each other more than most people are probably willing to admit. Even TFA isn't that far off the mark (Again it just feels like it was designed by Disney's Marketing Department and directed by one of the most oversold, pretentious directors of our generation. You know what's in the freaking box, JJ? It's a bunch of magic-shop shovelware, that's what's in the box!)

The short of it:

-Star Wars has more to do with the age of first exposure than any amount of writing/directing genius.
-It's an important milestone in science fiction. There have been talented writers/directors but the films are not some unreachable ideal.
-Nothing is ever as good as you remember it being.
-JJ Abrams sucks. Just genuinely sucks, guys, but he makes bank.
-The worst part of Star Wars is its fans. (I loved Phantom Menace, but what Star Wars fans did to the kid who played kid Anakin is just loathsome and appalling.)


Online Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2017, 09:44:52 AM »
All I know is I got the original trilogy (well VHS remasters of the original trilogies) and loved it. Saw the prequels starting at Phantom Menace at ten and loved them (especially Attack of the Clones). Trust me when I say, Jar-Jar is not that bad when you're a ten-year-old, it's actually really funny.

I saw The Force Awakens and after Rey's third skill of impossible destiny I never wanted to be out of a theater so bad in my life and I sat through Cloverfield (which should probably be a ding on JJ Abrams... eh... "talent". The writing was boring and stilted, and the great glimmers of the six movies of the past were there, but it just felt like it was a movie made to tick boxes. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they were the (honestly flawed) vision of a director, not a film assembled by marketing committee, and that's saying something when you know how much Lucas loved his merch rights.

Now I get that the Hero's Journey is a really an arch-narrative that involves checking off boxes, but it doesn't exactly have to be super obvious, and like I said earlier they didn't even do that right, quashing any hopes I had that a sequel could build off such poorly laid foundations (no I haven't seen the Last Jedi, and I'm probably not going to).

So here's my take on everything I've seen. I went back some years ago and watched all six movies in the original order to prepare for The Force Awakens, and thinking about it as critically as possible the original trilogy is not sci-fi writing magic, and the prequels aren't a total garbage fire. They're actually on par with each other more than most people are probably willing to admit. Even TFA isn't that far off the mark (Again it just feels like it was designed by Disney's Marketing Department and directed by one of the most oversold, pretentious directors of our generation. You know what's in the freaking box, JJ? It's a bunch of magic-shop shovelware, that's what's in the box!)

The short of it:

-Star Wars has more to do with the age of first exposure than any amount of writing/directing genius.
-It's an important milestone in science fiction. There have been talented writers/directors but the films are not some unreachable ideal.
-Nothing is ever as good as you remember it being.
-JJ Abrams sucks. Just genuinely sucks, guys, but he makes bank.
-The worst part of Star Wars is its fans. (I loved Phantom Menace, but what Star Wars fans did to the kid who played kid Anakin is just loathsome and appalling.)

Freedom of speech and opinion are a thing :)

I don’t mind anyone not liking the new Star Wars movie. Everyone has different tastes. I do not entirely like people judging a movie without having seen said movie themselves.

And you make plenty of very good points, Inkidu. I feel the same about Phantom Menace. It’s my least favourite movie of the eight, but it’s not a bad movie. When it first came out, I actually thought Jar Jar a bit funny. If I watch it now, I find him a bit annoying, but not enough to bash or hate the movie.

Offline mia h

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2017, 10:40:53 AM »
When it first came out, I actually thought Jar Jar a bit funny. If I watch it now, I find him a bit annoying, but not enough to bash or hate the movie.

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2017, 11:07:50 AM »
I'm finding it weird people who like the movie aren't giving too many particular reasons based on the film why they liked it. I don't really think 'the series is evolving and we need to accept that' is a legitimate argument for stating enjoyment of a media, to me (and YMMV) that sounds more like defending it from fallout or 'giving it an excuse'.

Basically, I can see here and in the other thread that people clearly loved the film, though I'm not seeing too many reasons why, was it the characters, the plot, the visuals, the pacing? I'm mostly seeing 'I loved it and sure it had flaws though I still enjoyed myself' and yet it seems to be from reading between the lines that people are enjoying it mainly as it ticks boxes for a different target audience from them enjoyed it.

Now my thing to ponder now is; if the actual people interested in watching liked it because it appealed to a different target audience that was not them (and by 'them' I lump in 'Prior Star Wars fans and scifi film fans'), there seems to have been a misstep.

Online Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2017, 11:18:57 AM »
I'm finding it weird people who like the movie aren't giving too many particular reasons based on the film why they liked it. I don't really think 'the series is evolving and we need to accept that' is a legitimate argument for stating enjoyment of a media, to me (and YMMV) that sounds more like defending it from fallout or 'giving it an excuse'.

Basically, I can see here and in the other thread that people clearly loved the film, though I'm not seeing too many reasons why, was it the characters, the plot, the visuals, the pacing? I'm mostly seeing 'I loved it and sure it had flaws though I still enjoyed myself' and yet it seems to be from reading between the lines that people are enjoying it mainly as it ticks boxes for a different target audience from them enjoyed it.

Now my thing to ponder now is; if the actual people interested in watching liked it because it appealed to a different target audience that was not them (and by 'them' I lump in 'Prior Star Wars fans and scifi film fans'), there seems to have been a misstep.

I liked it because Luke Kay walker was both human and badass all at once, the fight sequences were amazing, most of the new characters came to life in a way they didn’t entirely manage in the previous movie. There was plenty of humour, but not too much, visuals were breathtaking without going over the top and the plot worked for me.

The only possible downside in my opinion, was the fact that there was just so much happening that people not entirely familiar with Star Wars would have had a hard time following all of it.

When people say I loved it, they usually say it because there wasn’t anything not to love. It’s a rather all encompassing. What you’re asking, wander, is asking people to try and ex0lain why they love chocolate.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2017, 02:11:38 PM »
When people say I loved it, they usually say it because there wasn’t anything not to love. It’s a rather all encompassing. What you’re asking, wander, is asking people to try and ex0lain why they love chocolate.

Which is easily done by any rational person. If you cannot explain why you like something you didn't bother to analyze it - and if you didn't bother to analyze it it cannot have been that good. Things that are truly good linger in your mind and prompt you to think about them. This is what objectively good entertainment does.

This is the crux of fandoms. Nostalgia and social pressure becomes a moving force to direct responses to something. That force blinds them to flaws and enhances the strengths till they see a distorted version of it - and can no longer grasp that that is not the version others see. It stops being about the quality and becomes more about the shared cultural experience. Which basically makes debates about the quality of these things pointless.

As someone who does not experience nostalgia and always judges things off of their own merits I have never really understood fandoms. I simply want quality entertainment and the franchise name attached to it makes no difference as to the quality of the individual part. I overall really enjoy the Marvel movies but I will freely admit that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 are garbage fires. I love the Simpsons and can freely admit that the later seasons are at best "meh". I enjoyed the original trilogy of Star Wars movies - and I have no problem admitting that the prequels are drivel or that the Force Awakens was a paint by numbers rehash of A New Hope without a single instance of quality acting or writing.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2017, 02:25:00 PM »
As someone who does not experience nostalgia and always judges things off of their own merits I have never really understood fandoms. I simply want quality entertainment and the franchise name attached to it makes no difference as to the quality of the individual part. I overall really enjoy the Marvel movies but I will freely admit that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 are garbage fires. I love the Simpsons and can freely admit that the later seasons are at best "meh". I enjoyed the original trilogy of Star Wars movies - and I have no problem admitting that the prequels are drivel or that the Force Awakens was a paint by numbers rehash of A New Hope without a single instance of quality acting or writing.
So basically, you're saying that by not being pressured by nostalgia or society, you like the movies everyone is supposed to like, and dislike the ones that everyone else dislikes.

Everyone knows that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 were horrible. A vast majority of people call the Original Trilogy of Star Wars movies masterpieces (not flawless films by a damn mile) and haughtily call the Prequels 'Drivel' even though they had their merits. And (shocker, I know) everyone knows that the Force Awakens was a remake of A New Hope. Everyone enjoys the older Simpsons episodes while saying that the new ones just aren't as good because of the nostalgia behind them.

Are you seeing how I get the feeling that your claims to being immune to the effects of nostalgia and fandoms is more than a little hypocritical?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 02:31:02 PM by Deamonbane »

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2017, 02:32:51 PM »
So basically, you're saying that by not being pressured by nostalgia or society, you like the movies everyone is supposed to like, and dislike the ones that everyone else dislikes.

Everyone knows that Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 were horrible. A vast majority of people call the Original Trilogy of Star Wars movies masterpieces (not flawless films by a damn mile) and haughtily call the Prequels 'Drivel' even though they had their merits. And (shocker, I know) everyone knows that the Force Awakens was a remake of A New Hope. Everyone enjoys the older Simpsons episodes while saying that the new ones just aren't as good because of the nostalgia behind them.

Are you seeing how I get the feeling that your claims to being immune to the effects of nostalgia and fandoms feels more than a little hypocritical?

Way to go mischaracterizing what I said (and outright lying about fan reactions to certain movies) to make my argument weaker in your eyes. This is called a Strawman Argument. It is a logical fallacy. You make a secondary argument by misconstruing my argument to distract from the actual points I made. And followed it all with an Ad Hominem attack upon me. Need I go on or did I make my point?

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2017, 02:43:42 PM »
Did I mischaracterize what you said? Really? Or did you say that people who engage in nostalgia and fandoms are illogical whilst repeating the same mantra that every self-important Star Wars, MCU and Simpsons superfan has been quoting which is a rehash of 'The old days were so much better'? Not sure if that's a logical fallacy, but by heck, it should be.

So please, go on.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 02:50:20 PM »
Did I mischaracterize what you said? Really? Or did you say that people who engage in nostalgia and fandoms are illogical whilst repeating the same mantra that every self-important Star Wars, MCU and Simpsons superfan has been quoting which is a rehash of 'The old days were so much better'? Not sure if that's a logical fallacy, but by heck, it should be.

So please, go on.

Once again mischaracterizing what I said. I never said the old were so much better. You would have to cherry pick from my argument (or completely misunderstand my argument) to take that from it. So yet another Strawman Argument. I'm done with you. You are intellectually dishonest and I have no time for people like you. So I'm gonna ignore you and call it a day.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2017, 03:12:53 PM »
Excellent. Because it doesn't take a genius to figure out that fandom and nostalgia have nothing to do with logic or analytics, but instead with enjoyment and imagination. Or to put it in terms that you may be able to comprehend without taking it as a personal attack, not all good films are fun, and not all fun films are good. I would present a few personal favorites like The Raid: Redemption, The Raid 2, Dredd (Urban and Stallone), John Wick, and John Wick 2 as films that aren't necessarily good, but are enjoyable nonetheless. I even like the Star Wars Prequels and the new Star Trek films. Ditto a veritable horde of TV series that, from a critial standpoint petered out in early years and managed to still be enjoyable to fans despite that.

So instead of quoting all the logical flaws in my argument, would you care to explain how enjoying a film or series of films (Which are pieces of past iterations and therefore incomplete without them) is something that can be enjoyed without being subjected to logical and analytical dissection is a sign of willfully blinding themselves to the truth? Would you also care to explain that, while you claim to be above such fallacies as nostalgia and mindless enjoyment, you choose to substantiate your statement by rehashing arguments that have been on the tongues of critics for years?

Because that was your point in saying that people who are in fandoms and enjoy things for nostalgic reasons do so by ignoring the logical (and in many cases quite valid) criticisms of the cultural pieces that they enjoy when that is simply not true. Enjoying something does not incapacitate us from seeing the flaws. True, there are some 'superfans' who love something while claiming it is absolute perfection and any attack on it is seen as a personal attack, and these people are reshaping the world and what they love to fit their own views and it is not something limited solely to the realm of culture but rather a common flaw in humans as a rule. But a lot of people I know enjoy something simply because it is enjoyable, flaws and all. And while we admit that your criticisms are valid, it will not change the fact that we enjoy that thing anyways.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 03:14:15 PM by Deamonbane »

Online Kye

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2017, 03:13:41 PM »
There is no reason for a discussion in this thread to get to this point of incivility.  Please remember to keep things civil, I don't want to have to lock this thread.  I suggest that everyone take a step away from this discussion now to cool down.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2017, 03:24:23 PM »
I never said I was above mindless entertainment (I love Dredd and the Raid and most of the movies you listed) nor did I say was above nostalgia. I am not capable of the emotion. I am on the low end of the ASPD spectrum. I do not possess the necessary emotional triggers for it. All my original argument was was that if you cannot defend why you like something your like is not based off of objective quality. That's it.

But that's why I avoid the conversational sections of E. I always get attacked.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2017, 03:29:12 PM »
I never said I was above mindless entertainment (I love Dredd and the Raid and most of the movies you listed) nor did I say was above nostalgia. I am not capable of the emotion. I am on the low end of the ASPD spectrum. I do not possess the necessary emotional triggers for it. All my original argument was was that if you cannot defend why you like something your like is not based off of objective quality. That's it.

But that's why I avoid the conversational sections of E. I always get attacked.
I misunderstood, and took your statement as an attack. I apologize for that.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2017, 09:32:47 PM »
Inkidu, I both agree and disagree with some of your points (big surprise there :P )

I think you're right about the age of exposure to Star Wars.  My generation (Gen X) who grew up with the original trilogy, love them to death for the most part, and hate the prequels for the most part.  Milennials, though, seem to have a much higher regard for the prequels, and some even see them better than the originals.  What you are raised around makes a big difference.  My son, who is almost 16, has never been a fan of Star Wars, but he came out of Last Jedi gushing over it and saying it's one of the best films he's ever seen.

As for myself, I'm a Star Wars fan, but not a rabid one.  Empire is one of my favorite films, but not my #1.  That goes to another Lucas project, Raiders of the Lost Ark.  That was, for me, about as perfect as an action film can be.  Empire comes close, but not quite.

As for dinging episodes 7 and 8, well...even the original films had their flaws.  Lucas has never been one for great dialogue, and though he has his one liners and other moments, there are a lot of groaners in the original trilogy, too.  Lucas is also no great strategic mind, because the military plans of good guys and bad guys in the films are atrocious, old and new films.  Plot holes abound, characters show up and then leave with little or no explanation (bounty hunters in Empire, Maul in the prequels, Snoke and Phasma in the new ones).  Not to hoist you on your own petard, but it does indeed matter what generation you grow up in, insofar as how you look at the entirety of the Star Wars catalogue--unless you decouple yourself and give it all an unjaundiced, objective eye.

To answer what wander said about people not saying what they liked about episode 8:

spoilers!
  • Admiral Holdo's sacrifice scene in the Raddis reminded me very much of similar anime scenes, particularly ones I remember in Macross--especially with the light effect and the silence.
  • The rebel bomber pilots, especially Rose's sister.  It was a lot like Rogue One, which in itself was a lot like many, many war movies I saw with my father.  Sacrifice tends to ennoble characters greatly, and bring our sympathies to them.
  • Rose's reaction to Finn trying to run away.  It was quite realistic, especially from a character who had just seen her sister die.
  • Luke walking out of the smoking cloud of destruction from the walker's fire, grim-faced, then brushing some dust from his tunic.  Badassery to the extreme!
  • Rey's entire scene in the dark cave with the mirror.  Daisy Ridley did so much acting just with her face there.
  • Leia blasting Poe insensate.  That was a vintage badass Leia move.
  • Kylo taking Snoke out.  Totally, totally unexpected.  I remember how my mind was whirling with the possibilities.  Rian Johnson had me completely unsure of what would happen--would Kylo kill Rey, would Kylo somehow set her free and stand beside her?  I never expected Kylo to kill Snoke.  The look on Snoke's face was priceless, too.
  • Rey and Kylo's battle with Snoke's guards...especially the last one.  That saber to the face was epic.

That's all I recalled in two minutes.  There's probably more, but I've only seen it once, and there was a lot of material in it.

Look, I get the film was flawed.  But it was fun.  That's what I look for in this kind of film.  If I want to contemplate, I'll watch Blade Runner.  Star Wars is essentially an emotional and exciting rollercoaster ride meant to entertain.  If that kind of material doesn't work for you, then likely Star Wars isn't your cup of tea.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 09:48:42 PM by HannibalBarca »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2017, 09:46:10 PM »
Freedom of speech and opinion are a thing :)
Um, yes... yes they are. I'm afraid I don't follow this line of thought, and I am not for people using it to validate their opinions and invalidate others'. Opinion and free speech aren't... critical tools they're the foundations upon which criticism is built.  It also doesn't excuse incivility or vileness. Freedom of speech isn't freedom from the consequences of speech. What the fandom did to that kid is just wrong, even if it's their right to say it.

Quote
I don’t mind anyone not liking the new Star Wars movie. Everyone has different tastes. I do not entirely like people judging a movie without having seen said movie themselves.
I didn't judge The Last Jedi. I specifically avoided judging it, but I did point to The Force Awakens as the foundations of this new trilogy and pointed out where I didn't think it was going to go the distance.

Quote
And you make plenty of very good points, Inkidu. I feel the same about Phantom Menace. It’s my least favourite movie of the eight, but it’s not a bad movie. When it first came out, I actually thought Jar Jar a bit funny. If I watch it now, I find him a bit annoying, but not enough to bash or hate the movie.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2017, 10:09:22 PM »
Inkidu, I both agree and disagree with some of your points (big surprise there :P )

I think you're right about the age of exposure to Star Wars.  My generation (Gen X) who grew up with the original trilogy, love them to death for the most part, and hate the prequels for the most part.  Milennials, though, seem to have a much higher regard for the prequels, and some even see them better than the originals.  What you are raised around makes a big difference.  My son, who is almost 16, has never been a fan of Star Wars, but he came out of Last Jedi gushing over it and saying it's one of the best films he's ever seen.

As for myself, I'm a Star Wars fan, but not a rabid one.  Empire is one of my favorite films, but not my #1.  That goes to another Lucas project, Raiders of the Lost Ark.  That was, for me, about as perfect as an action film can be.  Empire comes close, but not quite.

As for dinging episodes 7 and 8, well...even the original films had their flaws.  Lucas has never been one for great dialogue, and though he has his one liners and other moments, there are a lot of groaners in the original trilogy, too.  Lucas is also no great strategic mind, because the military plans of good guys and bad guys in the films are atrocious, old and new films.  Plot holes abound, characters show up and then leave with little or no explanation (bounty hunters in Empire, Maul in the prequels, Snoke and Phasma in the new ones).  Not to hoist you on your own petard, but it does indeed matter what generation you grow up in, insofar as how you look at the entirety of the Star Wars catalogue--unless you decouple yourself and give it all an unjaundiced, objective eye.

To answer what wander said about people not saying what they liked about episode 8:

spoilers!
  • Admiral Holdo's sacrifice scene in the Raddis reminded me very much of similar anime scenes, particularly ones I remember in Macross--especially with the light effect and the silence.
  • The rebel bomber pilots, especially Rose's sister.  It was a lot like Rogue One, which in itself was a lot like many, many war movies I saw with my father.  Sacrifice tends to ennoble characters greatly, and bring our sympathies to them.
  • Rose's reaction to Finn trying to run away.  It was quite realistic, especially from a character who had just seen her sister die.
  • Luke walking out of the smoking cloud of destruction from the walker's fire, grim-faced, then brushing some dust from his tunic.  Badassery to the extreme!
  • Rey's entire scene in the dark cave with the mirror.  Daisy Ridley did so much acting just with her face there.
  • Leia blasting Poe insensate.  That was a vintage badass Leia move.
  • Kylo taking Snoke out.  Totally, totally unexpected.  I remember how my mind was whirling with the possibilities.  Rian Johnson had me completely unsure of what would happen--would Kylo kill Rey, would Kylo somehow set her free and stand beside her?  I never expected Kylo to kill Snoke.  The look on Snoke's face was priceless, too.
  • Rey and Kylo's battle with Snoke's guards...especially the last one.  That saber to the face was epic.

That's all I recalled in two minutes.  There's probably more, but I've only seen it once, and there was a lot of material in it.

Look, I get the film was flawed.  But it was fun.  That's what I look for in this kind of film.  If I want to contemplate, I'll watch Blade Runner.  Star Wars is essentially an emotional and exciting rollercoaster ride meant to entertain.  If that kind of material doesn't work for you, then likely Star Wars isn't your cup of tea.
Well, yes, maybe I've grown too critical, but the original trilogy didn't commit the cardinal sin of boring-invincible protagonist, and it's not the actor's fault, but Rey was far too strong and left far too little room to grow in Force Awakens, and that's something that's so difficult to walk back that I would call it a literary impossibility. It's nothing against the actor's acting talent. She's great, but she's hamstrung by the bad writing. I don't know why they did it this way, maybe they were scared to have a female character appear weak I don't know.

I'm not saying that there weren't parts of TFA that I didn't enjoy, Finn was great, he had genuine growth, and doubt, he had real moments of bravery and no poor OP writing to fall back on. So the main protagonist thread was heavily flawed and greater hooks of the series weren't so much hooks or unanswered questions as JJ Abrams being his typical vague self. Not telling someone doesn't equal lingering question, sometimes it just says that you're just being obtuse.

I mean if a whole new generation of ten-year-olds love it, fine. I'm not going to scream on my soapbox and call people stupid for liking it, but it commits too many fundamental literary sins in my eyes to be considered good at least as an adult. And it just feels too much like this series has its foundations in that design-by-accounting-committee feel to it. Maybe I'm just able to see the beats and missteps easily, but I didn't enjoy TFA and more of the same is not going to draw me back into the series.

It's hard to realize that the things we loved as kids aren't going to grow with us and take on the views and shades we've accrued as adults. I guess in a lot of ways it's really painful a realization to make because it means saying goodbye to another piece of something you loved as a kid, but that doesn't mean that it's gone.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2017, 10:56:05 PM »
No my friend, I don't think you're too critical.  Your points are well-taken.  Star Wars isn't an entity, but a fantasy world that is now written by multiple creators and overseen by a corporate bigwig.  That's not the recipe for catching lightning in a bottle once again as Lucas did with the first two.  It's a recipe for cranking out crowd-pleasers that earn a lot of money.  What we're talking about doesn't even take into account what Disney requests be done to the script to make it more palatable for viewers from other nations and cultures, in order to rake in even more cash.

But you talked of literary sins, and that's something of my point: Star Wars isn't literature, unlike the original versions of Lord of the Rings, 2001: A Space Odyssey, or even Blade Runner to an extent.  I did read the Star Wars novel, after I saw the film.  It was written by Alan Dean Foster, an excellent science fiction author himself, but it came from Lucas' script, not the other way around.  Lucas' brilliance was in making a scene and then editing it all together into a cohesive whole...that and understanding the monomyth as taught by Joseph Campbell.  Lucas was great at synthesis, not at creating wholly new concepts.  J.K. Rowling is something similar, though I'd give her more credit for creating the opposite of what Tolkien made: a character-driven fantasy masterpiece, rather than a plot-driven one. 

If you look at Empire Strikes Back it's hard to credit too much to Lucas, since he didn't write most of the script and didn't direct it.  Once his friend Gary Kurtz left after Empire, it had a huge effect on Lucas--primarily, Kurtz wasn't there to be an objective voice and critic to bad ideas.  I will always wonder what Return of the Jedi and the prequels might have been like had Kurtz and Lucas not had their falling out.

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2017, 08:22:43 AM »
I mentioned once to my friend on the topic of Lucas and his creative outlook that more than likely the Ewoks were a big thing he wanted. They seem more in theme with the prequel films than anything we got in New Hope and Empire.

I think the thing with the prequels, whilst I'm on the subject and I haven't seen it talked on yet, is that at least Attack of the Clones was well into production and Lucas hadn't even finished the script when filming had started. Much was made up as he went and I can think of only one other film off the top of my head that didn't have a completed script before filming started; ALIEN 3.

More on topic; I've been checking youtube and last week after Tuesday the critic's reviews came in, praising it whilst pointing there were flaws (the most obvious and common one was the Finn/Rose side-quest that went nowhere), though overall it was highly recommended. Then spoiler reviews came out on Friday and more critical analysis came by pointing some legitimate concerns. Last night, hundreds of videos are saying TLJ sucked, the new trilogy is dead in many fan's eyes, videos asking what went wrong and a whole ton pointing out Disney seeming putting forth a specific agenda.

Now whether these changes have been put forth to fit for viewers of other nations and cultures or it speaks more to the kind of tract more obvious in Marvel's (also owned by Disney now) trash-fire of current superhero comics, the actual audience of previous fans are reacting more visibly to when Rogue One came out, which seemed to be a mixed bag for many people (I felt it was alright) and the whole Mary Sue debate in TFA which divided the fans theoretically still now, though to a lesser extent.

Whatever the case, I myself am a bit downheartened with the course Disney are currently taking things (I know some like the idea of the new trilogy 10-12 not having any Skywalker in them, though I don't like that, for one thing) and how the big corporation is managing things behind the scenes too. I think we can all agree also that when JJ Abrams comes back for Ep.9, what with this being Rey's final film with Daisy Ridley done after it to boot, he's really written into a corner right here and it's clear many things he planned have been handwaved away that I see retcons having to happen for him to get the plot to a decent finale for this arc.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2017, 08:27:35 AM »
No my friend, I don't think you're too critical.  Your points are well-taken.  Star Wars isn't an entity, but a fantasy world that is now written by multiple creators and overseen by a corporate bigwig.  That's not the recipe for catching lightning in a bottle once again as Lucas did with the first two.  It's a recipe for cranking out crowd-pleasers that earn a lot of money.  What we're talking about doesn't even take into account what Disney requests be done to the script to make it more palatable for viewers from other nations and cultures, in order to rake in even more cash.

But you talked of literary sins, and that's something of my point: Star Wars isn't literature, unlike the original versions of Lord of the Rings, 2001: A Space Odyssey, or even Blade Runner to an extent.  I did read the Star Wars novel, after I saw the film.  It was written by Alan Dean Foster, an excellent science fiction author himself, but it came from Lucas' script, not the other way around.  Lucas' brilliance was in making a scene and then editing it all together into a cohesive whole...that and understanding the monomyth as taught by Joseph Campbell.  Lucas was great at synthesis, not at creating wholly new concepts.  J.K. Rowling is something similar, though I'd give her more credit for creating the opposite of what Tolkien made: a character-driven fantasy masterpiece, rather than a plot-driven one. 

If you look at Empire Strikes Back it's hard to credit too much to Lucas, since he didn't write most of the script and didn't direct it.  Once his friend Gary Kurtz left after Empire, it had a huge effect on Lucas--primarily, Kurtz wasn't there to be an objective voice and critic to bad ideas.  I will always wonder what Return of the Jedi and the prequels might have been like had Kurtz and Lucas not had their falling out.
I think you took that literary thing too literally. But it kind of misses my point. All movies have writers. We all know this, directors often get the big spotlight because they compose the film, but there is some genuinely shoddy screenwriting in TFA. There's no amount of editing that can be done to properly de-power Rey after what they did in TFA. It just can't be done. They fell victim to some kind of power fantasy or fear and they made their hero way too strong from the start. It's especially egregious when you compare it to Finn her co-protagonist's arc in the same film. He's got no special powers, no special destiny, he's not even particularly good at anything, but he gets up there and stares down a Sith... and loses! And he's better for having lost.

Rey's just boring and unsympathetic by comparison. Add in JJ Abrams's shoddy practice of doing vague things in films and trying to pass it off as genuine mystery (like the lightsaber, to put it in perspective Luke got the same--well implied to be the same--blade in a New Hope and it was still just as unknown, but Lucas set up the Clone Wars and a hero father. Genuine lines of questioning. Abrams however said "Here's Luke's old lightsaber, you know you want it fanboys, wink wink nudge nudge. Who cares how you got it back from the crushing depths of a gas giant" That's just confusing not mysterious) and she comes out as flat and mono-dimensional. Not to detract from the actor at all. She was doing the best she could with bad writing, but after a while there's no level of composition or acting talent that can fix a crappy script, which is what a lot of people said about the prequels too, it's just this new series works so hard to hit all the nostalgia buttons and get fans to put up the blinders.

EDIT: Note on what I'm saying with the lightsaber: To Luke it was a talisman connecting him to his past, a past he knew nothing of, to Rey it's just a lightsaber, it'll probably turn out to be Obi Wan's or Luke's even, but it holds no special attachment to her, because no one explained any hint of what that was. It holds special meaning for the audience watching the film, which is just shameful and makes for a confusing and pandering scene to the viewers.

I decided to put this down here because the aside up in the comment was running way too long.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 08:36:48 AM by Inkidu »

Offline mia h

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2017, 10:24:00 AM »
I mentioned once to my friend on the topic of Lucas and his creative outlook that more than likely the Ewoks were a big thing he wanted. They seem more in theme with the prequel films than anything we got in New Hope and Empire.
The Ewoks were originally going to be Wookies but after having Chewy is seen fixing the Falcon it was hard to sell the idea that the every other Wookie fought a with stick. So they chopped Wookie in half and got an Ewok.

Offline WindFish

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2017, 12:27:00 PM »
This is one of the better reviews I've seen, and it perfectly sums up my thoughts on the movie.

Spoilers, obviously.



Just because a film doesn't cater to fans or live up to your expectations doesn't make it bad. I think that was one of the main themes of the movie in regards to failure and high expectations. They have to start doing different things with Star Wars before it gets too repetitive, which is why I'm glad they decided to take risks and not cater to fan service.

It's by no means a flawless movie, but it's not anywhere near as bad as some people are saying.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2017, 04:50:53 PM »
Why should they you understand why they had two Chinese women in the movie who were heroes and the love interest, to appeal to the Chinese and Asian foreign movie markets, the same reason in Rogue One the Chinese blind monk was a well regarded Chinese market actor the money. They don't care about the hardcore fans they know each movie means a lot of return on the investment and they will add women to appeal to women, ethnic persons to appeal to ethnic persons Del Toro is a very popular Latin American actor hello as the reason he was added and so forth. Old fans might drop away but they know more people will be new fans and likely even the hardcore fans will likely go see them once each because its Star Wars and they will be curious.

Its about the money.

Offline Norsegod1839

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2017, 05:20:55 PM »
I loved it.... To me the last jedi is exactly what star wars is. Not about who your parents are or your family destiny but how the force belongs to everyone and all you need is hope.

The ending of the movie with the kid starring out at the horizon and looking up at the stars is the theme of star wars hook line and sinker. Luke started in exactly the same place just a kid from Tatoine who dreamed and hoped for something better and did his best to do it.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2017, 05:44:33 PM »
It's really simple with me. I didn't like VII so I'm not going to watch any of the other ones. I'll always hold that Star Wars has more to do with what age you watch it at more than the quality of the actual films being presented, and I'm sticking by that. I thought Force Awakens was so badly done with Rey being grossly mishandled and such a Mary Sue that I don't think there's a fertile enough foundation for a solid trilogy. If another generation of kids can like it though, more power to them.

without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.

Offline Norsegod1839

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2017, 05:45:56 PM »
without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.

I agree with that one! It is kind of a FU to TFA which might be why I enjoyed it because I didnt like TFA and thought its problems were solved in this one.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2017, 06:03:59 PM »
without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.

If what you hated about 7 was the characters I don't think 8 will have fixed that problem.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2017, 06:51:09 PM »
JJ is very nostalgic and reverent of the series and RJ is very "people who worship these movies and characters are ridiculous"

JJ tried very hard to do intrigue and mystery boxes and RJ is almost meta in knocking them down and saying they're either dumb or don't matter.

so yeah if you have a hard on for the OT characters, 8 will not be your jam. the whole message is that real people don't have arcs where they get over their bad habits. we're like addicts, we slip back into bad habits all the time. we only "grow" in the sense that we recognize our own worst tendencies. etc.

but if you complained about 7 being a remake, this is... not a remake.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2017, 07:15:07 PM »
I complained that 7 was bad from beginning to end. It being a remake was - at best - a minor irritation.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2017, 07:27:27 PM »
i mean, people like and dislike things for different reasons, it's okay.

we're 2/3 through the sequel trilogy and i think it's a very decent modern star wars story. there are problems (some illogical situations, the new guys aren't as good as the OT characters because they've been admiring the OT characters or fucking things up or presumed dead or whatever)

and they were caught in a tight space between letting luke dominate this new trilogy or reverting his character and neither choice would make everyone happy.

but man there were a lot of BAD movie-product things put out this year, and TLJ was not one of them. this is an auteur story with dope visuals, philosophy/theme, exciting fights, good comedy. so if it's not you're thing, okay, but i'd personally like star wars to be more like this imo.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2017, 07:46:52 PM »
I just want good movies. Nothing I have heard about this movie makes it sound like one. The story sounds absolutely nonsensical, it utterly destroys any possibility of the trilogy making sense, and the characters are garbage. If I want good comedic space action I'll watch Guardians of the Galaxy. If I want good space fantasy i'll watch Thor Ragnarok.

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2017, 08:24:42 PM »
I'mma leave this here.


Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2017, 09:05:05 PM »
without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.
That's actually worse.

It's the same reason why the Mass Effect Trilogy failed. Lucas basically had a hand in writing all six films. Could he have used some more editing and less protection from editors? Yeah, but the voice stays consistent.

To be brief on my point and it's one I share with Shamus Young: Everyone thinks that Mass Effect fell apart at the third game. No, it fell apart at Mass Effect 2. Yes it has wonderful gameplay and characters, but the game was written by a guy (and I realize it's more than one person but for the sake of simplicity one guy) who hated the world-building of ME 1. So if there was something to fix in TFA then having someone who hated it and tore it all down is probably not good, because this tug-of-war is going to make IX terrible.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:08:24 PM by Inkidu »

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2017, 11:10:56 PM »
I got done watching this video, and HelloGreedo pretty much summed up the film with my exact feelings on the film.  No really, he spot-on says what I feel and have been saying in this thread:



Of course, HelloGreedo got a lot of pushback in the comments section, but that's nothing new on YouTube.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2017, 12:00:56 AM »
I got done watching this video, and HelloGreedo pretty much summed up the film with my exact feelings on the film.  No really, he spot-on says what I feel and have been saying in this thread:



Of course, HelloGreedo got a lot of pushback in the comments section, but that's nothing new on YouTube.

Subverting an expectation is about twisting the ending. What he is describing here is failing to pay off on a storyline. Subverting can help tell a good story. Failure to pay off is an egregious writing sin. He literally doesn't understand the writing conventions that he is talking about.

He literally says that what the viewer wants doesn't matter... except it really, really does when you spend years hyping a movie and getting them to see it under a certain set of assumptions. Like that movie will have more connections to the first movie in the series than simply having the same characters. I didn't like the Force Awakens but simply casting it all aside to be "different" is slipshod piss poor edgelord writing. If he wanted to not follow the story of the Force Awakens he could have simply waiting for his own trilogy. All this does is insure that this trilogy will be incoherent and schizophrenic in mood.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 12:04:55 AM by DarkPrince »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2017, 04:31:33 AM »
Not planning to watch it - I saw VII and it was good but still felt a bit haphazard and I'm not that much invested in Star Wars as a whole, never have been.

I just read a mournful, disenchanted review of the film and the underlying problems of wrapping up a multi-part sci-fi epic like this one in an age when the film and tv inductry want to have the option of endlessly adding new parts, sequels. prequels and reboots.  For people who have followed SW ever since the first trilogy and who loved it, and its actors, these final three probably won't ever fulfil what the story "should have become" in their minds. How do you actually make a good continuation/sequel to a massively successful series of films from forty years ago? The original actors are around retirement age by now, Carrie Fisher is gone, and the whole sense of optimism and romanticism about space that prevailed back in the 60s and 70s is difficult to recapture too - even though we now know a lot more about actual alien solar systems.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/star-wars-is-dead-gen-xers-get-over-it/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=20732020982974576184239190769818

The reviewer says he felt a sense of anger and failed opportunities. In part he was thinking Disney had done a botched job, but the real trouble is that with Luke played by  a man who was about 65 years old during the filming and Princess Leia by a 60-year old lady who died towards the end of the movie shoot, mourned by many millions of fans, there won't be a truly satisfying ending, and just seeing them on the screen becomes a reminder of the passage of time. It's like watching Bob Dylan attempting songs about young rebellion that he did better than anybody else when he was 23, but now he's 75 and his voice is half gone... :( I had a quick look at the plot at Wikipedia and it does look like the final showdown between Luke and Kylo becomes a bit of a contrived joke to get around the difficulty of staging a duel with a much older Luke who still should appear young and fearless - we still think of him as the young swashbuckler. It just doesn't look like it's holding together that well.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 05:14:39 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2017, 05:48:35 AM »
Not planning to watch it - I saw VII and it was good but still felt a bit haphazard and I'm not that much invested in Star Wars as a whole, never have been.

I just read a mournful, disenchanted review of the film and the underlying problems of wrapping up a multi-part sci-fi epic like this one in an age when the film and tv inductry want to have the option of endlessly adding new parts, sequels. prequels and reboots.  For people who have followed SW ever since the first trilogy and who loved it, and its actors, these final three probably won't ever fulfil what the story "should have become" in their minds. How do you actually make a good continuation/sequel to a massively successful series of films from forty years ago? The original actors are around retirement age by now, Carrie Fisher is gone, and the whole sense of optimism and romanticism about space that prevailed back in the 60s and 70s is difficult to recapture too - even though we now know a lot more about actual alien solar systems.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/star-wars-is-dead-gen-xers-get-over-it/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=20732020982974576184239190769818

The reviewer says he felt a sense of anger and failed opportunities. In part he was thinking Disney had done a botched job, but the real trouble is that with Luke played by  a man who was about 65 years old during the filming and Princess Leia by a 60-year old lady who died towards the end of the movie shoot, mourned by many millions of fans, there won't be a truly satisfying ending, and just seeing them on the screen becomes a reminder of the passage of time. It's like watching Bob Dylan attempting songs about young rebellion that he did better than anybody else when he was 23, but now he's 75 and his voice is half gone... :( I had a quick look at the plot at Wikipedia and it does look like the final showdown between Luke and Kylo becomes a bit of a contrived joke to get around the difficulty of staging a duel with a much older Luke who still should appear young and fearless - we still think of him as the young swashbuckler. It just doesn't look like it's holding together that well.

I think the fanservice and pandering of this trilogy so far comes off less as heartfelt homage and more, "Don't worry, Star Wars is eternal, it has never changed, never will change, and all you longtime fans are never going to succumb to the ravages of age. After all if you can still recapture the magic of an eternally optimistic child then there's hope. Right?"

But (and I'm not saying Abram's had the talent to do this, because he doesn't, bad Inki leave the nice, rich, bafflinglly-successful director alone; pick on someone your own size) if this new trilogy had sought to actually tell a unique story to capture a new generation of viewers instead a pale facsimile of doing that. Fans would have Prequel'd all over the place because they'd have to face their own looming morbidity.

Offline Kaspider

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2017, 06:29:43 AM »
I liked it but I think the writing could be better. Also the back and forth cutting between slow emotional pace (Rey's storyline) and fast action was a bit too much. Throughout the movie it was the same. In the middle, it was slow but the ending was good.

I kind of think Rey's character took a step backward and the Luke stole the show. I don't know. I haven't seen any Star Wars movies before.

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2017, 11:04:59 AM »
Quote
He literally says that what the viewer wants doesn't matter... except it really, really does when you spend years hyping a movie and getting them to see it under a certain set of assumptions. Like that movie will have more connections to the first movie in the series than simply having the same characters. I didn't like the Force Awakens but simply casting it all aside to be "different" is slipshod piss poor edgelord writing

If Disney doesn't care about myself as a fan and wants to subvert what the audience, their paying audience had built up and wanted closure on with shaggy dog stories, if they really don't care for the core fandom that bad and they're pushing their fun little regime and just want a film each year for the money, I hereby stop giving them my money.

I'll spend it on a franchise and company that cares about their fans and doesn't troll them.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2017, 11:35:46 AM »
Learnt a new word today: shaggy-dog story. :D

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2017, 11:44:01 AM »
For those who may not know what I meant by that;

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShaggyDogStory

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2017, 11:17:28 PM »
If I may chime in with my two cents: I feel like a lot of the problems with The Last Jedi stem from the incomprehensible decision to have it immediately pick up where The Force Awakens left off. Star Wars has never done that, and with good reason: putting some space in between the films allows room for other stories to be told (novels, tie-in games, fanfiction, etcetera), plus it lets filmmakers skip over all the boring in-between stuff -- hence why we got stuck watching Leia and Poe ride a space bus for two hours.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2017, 08:12:42 AM »
I agree if they had say five years between the movies, Rey training off screen, the resistance losing battle after battle and winning a bit, characters maturing this could explain Rey being so bad ass and other characters being different. However in the Empire Strikes Back how long was Luke working with Yoda it didn't seem all that long a month maybe two? Just saying maybe the Force is bouncing back like the old days and more force users will rise, like its in the valley now and climbing up the mountain for a period of time until there is another dip someday?

Offline wander

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2017, 10:19:14 AM »
There was in the timeline supposed to be a six month gap between Empire and Jedi, of which Luke may or may not have spent some of that with Yoda.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2017, 05:28:11 PM »
Without any obvious 'two weeks later' kind of cues in Empire, it's foggy as to how long Luke was with Yoda training.  Considering the Milennium Falcon couldn't jump to hyperspace, the journey from the asteroid field in the Hoth system to Cloud City is speculated to have taken anywhere from days to months.  And knowing how Vader pretty much toyed with Luke in their duel, we can safely say whatever Yoda taught him as far as fighting wasn't anywhere near enough to be even at an average Jedi level of expertise.  Luke pretty much fought on instinct backed up by his natural force ability.

My question comes in like this: how much combat training or practical fighting experience did Luke have growing up?  It seems implied that Rey spent a lot of time defending herself on Jakku, being alone, while Luke grew up with a family and probably didn't spend a lot of time fighting off Tusken Raiders with melee combat skills.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2017, 05:30:29 PM »
My question comes in like this: how much combat training or practical fighting experience did Luke have growing up?  It seems implied that Rey spent a lot of time defending herself on Jakku, being alone, while Luke grew up with a family and probably didn't spend a lot of time fighting off Tusken Raiders with melee combat skills.

The question is meaningless. School of hard knocks training with a staff would not at all translate to mastering a weightless blade that can remove one your one limbs with a careless swing. Not even close in discipline, muscle memory, or technique. Take this from someone who has studied melee combat his entire life.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2017, 05:46:38 PM »
Also, if you give your heroine all the skills she needs to be good at the movie from her backstory, that's bad writing::)

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2017, 05:47:34 PM »
Eh, the writers don't seem to care how much training Rey gets so why should I?

I'm more bothered by the First Order. Who the hell are they? Where do they get the resources to build a planet-sized solar-system-murdering machine, or a spaceship the size of 15 Star Destroyers? It made sense for the Empire to do that stuff because they were a large-scale galactic government. But who the hell is Snoke? Why is he wearing a gold sequined bathrobe? Did he make his fortune as a galactic pop singer? We know nothing. As far as I can tell, the First Order is just the Empire with even stupider hats.

But my main issue with TLJ is that nothing the characters do means anything. Finn & Rose's whole mission to the casino planet ends up being pointless and actually results in a net loss to the Rebel Alliance Resistance. The one time Finn tries to do something meaningful, she stops him. Also what the hell was up with his scene at the beginning of the movie? Goodbye, all of his character development from TFA!

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2017, 06:19:35 PM »
RJ seems not to believe in character development in a traditional sense.

Like in the hollywood movie model of storytelling, you have a problem, you have experiences, you change, you're different.

In eastern literature or TV, you don't "get over" your character flaws, you do them over and over. So Finn is a coward and he's going to need that push over and over just like a normal person.

I like a LOT of this movie. Rose is a much better foil than Poe would have been on that casino trip. Everyone here is a writer, Rey is the new main character.

Luke's options were to revert emotionally, to get nerfed, or to be the main character of the new trilogy.

And one movie overwriting another one... lmao, I mean have you guys seen OT Star Wars before? That's an argument you can dismiss without even talking about. TLJ is a smart movie, but it's also a Star Wars movie about how people should stop worshiping Star Wars, so of course it's contentious with the fans. GOOD. It's okay to have one or two of those.

Rian did this weird meta teardown of the series, JJ is going to have to make a final chapter that:

RECONSTRUCTS to some extent and is a meta-rebuttal to TLJ's cynicism
keeps the new generation cast together (lmao, rey and poe have seriously had one sentence together)
gives finn's story arc a satisfying ending and also resolve this fucking weird rose-finn-rey-kylo love quadrangle
a few other things

he has some work ahead of him, but it's not impossible and star wars isn't ruined. tbh i WANT more stuff like this. even if you hated last jedi, it feels like a Lucas movie (except for the cynicism, which george of course would never do). it doesn't feel like it came from a lab, there are imaginative setpieces, muddled mortality, cool-ass animals, heroes doing NONVIOLENT shit in the climax... I want creators to get in there and do their thing and not be like Star Trek where everybody is intimidated by how the property is "supposed" to be.

so the next movie i want JJ to tweak the setpieces and conflicts of "STAR WARZ" in the same way Rian tweaked the morality and tropes of "STAR WARZ" and for it all to be a good time.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2017, 06:22:35 PM »
Calling it "meta" doesn't make it good.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2017, 06:33:11 PM »
Eh, the writers don't seem to care how much training Rey gets so why should I?

I'm more bothered by the First Order. Who the hell are they? Where do they get the resources to build a planet-sized solar-system-murdering machine, or a spaceship the size of 15 Star Destroyers? It made sense for the Empire to do that stuff because they were a large-scale galactic government. But who the hell is Snoke? Why is he wearing a gold sequined bathrobe? Did he make his fortune as a galactic pop singer? We know nothing. As far as I can tell, the First Order is just the Empire with even stupider hats.

But my main issue with TLJ is that nothing the characters do means anything. Finn & Rose's whole mission to the casino planet ends up being pointless and actually results in a net loss to the Rebel Alliance Resistance. The one time Finn tries to do something meaningful, she stops him. Also what the hell was up with his scene at the beginning of the movie? Goodbye, all of his character development from TFA!

its implied they found planets outside the known space and exploited them Rose had a planet stripped of resources for the First Order and its war machine and its not likely the only one, lets say they found a premium planet like Earth how many ships and recruits and slave labor could they get even if the population was two billion people? I would like to see this more fleshed out but odds are they just found worlds and looted them regardless if they were uninhabited, inhabited or low tech to advanced more they exploited them. Is that so different than the conquest of the New World and colonialism in the real world history.

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2017, 06:40:14 PM »
i don't want 10 posts arguing about STAR WARZ in my post history because I'll feel like a lame-o. But:

- all movies are meta.
- TLJ is the most fresh, mature, surprising SW movie ever.
- the action scenes are surprising, well staged, and cool
- the character development for these characters was vital and pitch perfect even if their setpieces weren't (i mean, canto blight is not important but rose and finn's interactions are)
- luke and his man vs legend conflict is handled perfectly

its not an A+ movie, there are some things (like the lightspeed kamikaze) i would have never done, but it's time for fans to realize there's one all-time standalone classic and a bunch of mixed bags, and TLJ is gonne be one of them.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2017, 07:09:27 PM »
its implied they found planets outside the known space and exploited them Rose had a planet stripped of resources for the First Order and its war machine and its not likely the only one, lets say they found a premium planet like Earth how many ships and recruits and slave labor could they get even if the population was two billion people? I would like to see this more fleshed out but odds are they just found worlds and looted them regardless if they were uninhabited, inhabited or low tech to advanced more they exploited them. Is that so different than the conquest of the New World and colonialism in the real world history.
Yeah, but all of that stuff is in the supplementary materials. I hate to paraphrase Mr. Plinkett but I shouldn't have to read a bunch of tie-in novels, comic books or visual dictionaries in order to understand the movies.

It's a minor quibble, but it's not hard to explain stuff like that. The Empire didn't really need explaining, it's right there in the name, but A New Hope still threw in enough lines here and there that we weren't completely lost. But the whole political situation in the new trilogy is murky as hell and they do a terrible job explaining it. And don't throw a bunch of crap at me about the Galactic Concordance and disarmament treaties and blah blah blah. I'm well aware of the explanation behind the Resistance, I'm just annoyed that I had to read three Wookieepedia articles to find it.

Though that's more of a complaint about TFA than TLJ. TFA was enjoyable in spite of its issues.
- all movies are meta.
If all movies are meta, then what's the point of praising TLJ for being "meta"?
- TLJ is the most fresh, mature, surprising SW movie ever.
Why is it "mature"? Because a ton of people died? What was surprising about it? The thing with Kylo Ren? That's nothing new, it's the exact same thing Vader tried to do except Kylo succeeded. The big Luke twist? Whatever. The stuff with Benicio del Toro? Unexpected maybe, but what was the point of any of it?
- the action scenes are surprising, well staged, and cool
Eh. The opening space battle was fine, the fight with Snoke's guards annoyed me because they looked like green-screen stunt doubles except red instead of green (and having everything take place against a completely red backdrop didn't help), and the Crait battle was even more one-sided than Hoth somehow. Also this is the only Star Wars movie without a lightsaber duel (but I'm sure that counts as a cool "meta" subversion, ooh, ahhhh). I liked when Finn fought Phasma but again, that was mostly pointless.
- the character development for these characters was vital and pitch perfect even if their setpieces weren't (i mean, canto blight is not important but rose and finn's interactions are)
I don't feel like Rose and Finn's interactions were important at all. What, because she kissed him at the end? Because she stopped him from doing a single meaningful act BCUZ LUV? I don't see it.
its not an A+ movie, there are some things (like the lightspeed kamikaze) i would have never done
That's a shame because that was one part I really liked.

TLJ left me feeling frustrated. Frustrated that I essentially spent two hours watching the Resistance ride a bus somewhere so they could make a phone call. Frustrated that Leia spent most of it in a coma (yeah, nobody's gonna regret that story decision in hindsight, no sir). Frustrated that the answer to many of the burning questions from TFA was "Who cares?" Frustrated that everything everyone did was largely pointless. Frustrated that the ending left me with zero interest in what happens next. Frustrated that Han is the only original trilogy character whose death is going to have any meaning.

I'm glad you liked it but unfortunately I have to disagree with you.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2017, 07:39:58 PM »
Without any obvious 'two weeks later' kind of cues in Empire, it's foggy as to how long Luke was with Yoda training.  Considering the Milennium Falcon couldn't jump to hyperspace, the journey from the asteroid field in the Hoth system to Cloud City is speculated to have taken anywhere from days to months.  And knowing how Vader pretty much toyed with Luke in their duel, we can safely say whatever Yoda taught him as far as fighting wasn't anywhere near enough to be even at an average Jedi level of expertise.  Luke pretty much fought on instinct backed up by his natural force ability.

My question comes in like this: how much combat training or practical fighting experience did Luke have growing up?  It seems implied that Rey spent a lot of time defending herself on Jakku, being alone, while Luke grew up with a family and probably didn't spend a lot of time fighting off Tusken Raiders with melee combat skills.
See that doesn't track. It's shown that while she could smack some people around with her staff if she had to, her better scenes start her out as a rather promising guile heroine. Then you tack on Chewie-level mechanic, and Han-level piloting skills, and then savant-level force powers makes her rather boring as a character ultimately, because there's no real room for growth.

You'd honestly think Finn would have the better combat training, even when the army handles its own sanitation demands the troopers would still have basic combat experience, and that's further exemplified by Tr8-0R (that guy with the shock stick).

So what we could have had was a guileful scrappy non-traditional Jedi-to-be to play opposite Finn's pacifistic but fairly formally trained prowess, and what we got was a boring invincible female co-protagonist.  That makes me more sad than outraged or anything. I just get the feeling that someone, somewhere either adopted Rey as his creator's pet or (given how TLJ has apparently been directed) was scared to have a female main character who was weak in any way.


Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2017, 07:49:03 PM »
As much as I hate to rehash the whole awful "Rey is a Mary Sue" debate, revealing she was one of Luke's students from the ill-fated Jedi Academy would have solved a lot of that. If she'd had Jedi training at a young age it would make plenty of sense for her to be able to pull of the Jedi mind trick so easily, for example. And it would explain why Kylo Ren seemed so interested in her.

Having her just be a rando from planet garbage throws a wrench in all that. Though for the record I rather like Rey.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2017, 08:06:50 PM »
I'mma just jump in and say that I loved the movie.

The action, the suspense, the story development, all of it.  Rey being the balance for Kylo fits with the way the Force works, in all of my reading of Star Wars books, lore, and the myriad games I have played.

They could have made her a lost padawan, but her rise from nothing is the opposite of Kylo.  He was from a distinguished bloodline, trained by Luke Skywalker himself.

She came from nothing, her parents were nothing, and yet she is naturally gifted in a way that mirrors Kylo's power and ability.

I loved the inspiration that remained in the low points of the Rebellion, and the words of hope at the end.

If I have any complaint at all, it was that Phasma was under-used again.

Otherwise, I suggest folks go see it.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2017, 08:47:39 PM »
She came from nothing, her parents were nothing, and yet she is naturally gifted in a way that mirrors Kylo's power and ability.
Now, I've only seen TFA and I'm sure TLJ has a lot of reveals but if I were reading this sentence after seeing the TFA I'd say:

That's because she is nothing, has had nothing explained about her, and to be honest we're not sure she even has parents. She's a bunch of over-powered skills in the shape of a humanoid character.

I don't think someone vague and ill-explained is a good foil to anyone.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2017, 08:49:26 PM »
I actually have to agree with Kazyth on this one. While overall I disliked TLJ and I feel some aspects of Rey were poorly executed, her coming from nothing and being "nobody" (as she says in TFA) actually does make her a very good counterpart to Kylo.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2017, 09:53:42 PM »
Question: How the fuck does Kylo Ren know who her parents are? The Force doesn't give you magical genealogical mapping abilities - cause if it does that blows a huge hole in A New Hope.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2017, 10:00:32 PM »
He knows because she knew.

She always knew, but she lied to herself about it.  Their mental connection let them see deeper into each other.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2017, 10:05:53 PM »
So... bullshit bad writing handwaving? Gotcha.

Offline Kazyth

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2017, 10:14:49 PM »
That’s one way to look at it, I suppose.

Lore-wise, that sort of thing is entirely within the purview of the Force.  Mind reading, mind links, Force Ghosts and Posessions, all of that and more.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2017, 10:22:44 PM »
Lore doesn't make up for the fact that it's a lazy writing ass pull so the director doesn't have to actually deal with a story hook left over from the first movie.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2017, 10:22:59 PM »
TLJ also leaves open the possibility that Kylo is simply lying.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2017, 10:44:45 PM »
He knows because she knew.

She always knew, but she lied to herself about it.  Their mental connection let them see deeper into each other.
Of course she would always know, heaven forbid she have a real blind spot. >,>

(Yes, now I'm just venting my spleen.)

Offline mia h

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2017, 02:35:58 AM »
I think everyone needs to calm down and watch the latest episode of the Librarians, which about an old movie house and the over analytical lead character is told by another character.

"Be normal. Movies aren't meant to be dissected, they're meant to wash over you like a wave until you are totally immersed in the story, swimming in the characters. Can you do that?"

So who needs swimming lessons?   ;D

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2017, 03:32:56 AM »
I think everyone needs to calm down and watch the latest episode of the Librarians, which about an old movie house and the over analytical lead character is told by another character.

"Be normal. Movies aren't meant to be dissected, they're meant to wash over you like a wave until you are totally immersed in the story, swimming in the characters. Can you do that?"

So who needs swimming lessons?   ;D

All forms of art are meant to be analyzed - especially if its flaws prevent immersion. Also the Librarians is terrible and should never be taken as a source of wisdom or entertainment.

Offline mia h

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2017, 04:01:42 AM »
Guess I know who needs a life preserver for Christmas.

Star Wars is aimed at 10 year olds and I'm sure the 10 year old SithChicken would have loved TLJ, you just have to let your inner 10 year old watch the movie and not over analyse everything.

As for The Librarians being terrible????? It's really low budget, it's silly and everyone involved knows it. But instead of shying away from those things, the show leans into them and that makes it work because they aren't taking themselves seriously, again 10 year old SithChicken would love it.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2017, 04:38:05 AM »
I have one person telling me TLJ is the most "adult" installment, someone else is saying it's for ten-year-olds. Which is it guys? ::)

Though I feel most ten-year-olds would be bored to tears by TLJ, aside from the X-wing scenes or the Snoke Ninja fight.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2017, 06:33:00 AM »
Guess I know who needs a life preserver for Christmas.

Star Wars is aimed at 10 year olds and I'm sure the 10 year old SithChicken would have loved TLJ, you just have to let your inner 10 year old watch the movie and not over analyse everything.

As for The Librarians being terrible????? It's really low budget, it's silly and everyone involved knows it. But instead of shying away from those things, the show leans into them and that makes it work because they aren't taking themselves seriously, again 10 year old SithChicken would love it.
He's right though, art never suffers in the long run from critical analysis. The problem only really comes when the film in question comes to wash over you, and it ends up breaking over you leaving a bad impact, or worse, no impact.

Is Star Wars meant for ten-year-olds? Sure. Does that protect it from criticism. Obviously not. Winnie the Pooh was also for ten-year-olds and you won't believe the criticism written about that. Hell, I did my bachelor's thesis on The Hobbit and that wasn't meant for adults.

Are there a lot of emotions tied up in Star Wars that feelings get hurt? Definitely. I'm not going to ignore a poorly written character though. It's not because it's Star Wars either. I'd be ripping Rey apart if she showed up in any other form because it's just bad writing, and if it can be established that it's bad writing, then people can learn from it and avoid it.

Online Arkaniel

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2017, 06:34:23 AM »
I have one person telling me TLJ is the most "adult" installment, someone else is saying it's for ten-year-olds. Which is it guys? ::)

Though I feel most ten-year-olds would be bored to tears by TLJ, aside from the X-wing scenes or the Snoke Ninja fight.

I think Last Jedi works for all ages. I think it’s more an issue of exp3ctations. I expected a fun movie with action scenes, humour and science fiction and... so on. I got what I wanted. I enjoyed it and I think it was a fun movie to watch and better than TFA or the prequel trilogy, though maybe not on the same level of immersion as the original trilogy.

I also think Mia h is very right!

Star Wars isn’t meant to be analysed. I don’t think you can analyse any science fiction or fantasy as thoroughly as some people are attempting to do with this movie, just to find reasons to call it a bad movie. You either liked it or didn’t and no amount of critiquing is going to change it. On the issue of plot writing, dues ex machine and Mary Sues and whatnot... well, I don’t know any fantasy or science fiction that doesn’t suffer from these things.

Also, Rey didn’t KNOW, not for sure and it’s still very possible Kylo was lying to her. Besides, why would Rey need a special parentage at all? Age wise, she could only be Luke’s daughter of any of the famous characters and I think Luke would have remembered if he had a daughter and definitely not have left her on Jakku of all places.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2017, 06:54:50 AM »
I also think Mia h is very right!

Star Wars isn’t meant to be analysed. I don’t think you can analyse any science fiction or fantasy as thoroughly as some people are attempting to do with this movie, just to find reasons to call it a bad movie. You either liked it or didn’t and no amount of critiquing is going to change it. On the issue of plot writing, dues ex machine and Mary Sues and whatnot... well, I don’t know any fantasy or science fiction that doesn’t suffer from these things.
You're wrong, and I find this statement very dangerous and anti-intellectual. I'm trying desperately not to be offended, and I don't want to fly into a rant, but saying Star Wars isn't meant to be analyzed hurts everything about it. Sure it protects it from all the negative criticism, but it would also stop people from leveling positive criticism at it. You're basically saying it is merely mindless entertainment fodder to be ingested and crapped out of the human brain box without nary a second thought, and that's the single most offensive thing art can be. Sure a lot of people think criticism is just a bunch of stuffy people poo-pooing movies they don't like, and trust me I hate that as much as the next person, but true analytical criticism is important to art on a fundamental level. If work is not worthy of a deeper dive then I'll point you back up to the mindless entertainment fodder once again.

It's only when we stop to give works of art that deeper level of scrutiny, that deeper read that we find that resonance within us. To say "It's not meant to be analyzed" is saying that it basically is not worth the film it's shot on. So yeah, some of time you out what directors, writers, and developers tried to sweep under the rug and it brings the experience down, but sometimes, sometimes you find something so wonderfully constructed and full of meaning that it becomes something so much better than merely a book, movie, or game.

And no, I'm not just trying to validate my bachelor's in English. I'm trying to explain why the humanities exist at all.  Never have I said anyone should feel bad because they liked a film or movie. I think all works are learning experiences, even the Librarians. I may not like something, but I never write it off. And I definitely don't write off something I enjoy to spare myself from maybe picking at a flaw, a flaw that may make it all just fall apart. That's not what a proper analytical critique is about People like what they like, but don't try to refute the desire to give something that deeper read. Is there some sausage-making involved that some people might not wish to know? Sure, but if you can take that deep breath and push past it, and be honest with it, you might find that the works you love are more multifaceted and nuanced than ever thought possible. 

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2017, 12:04:22 PM »
Guess I know who needs a life preserver for Christmas.

Star Wars is aimed at 10 year olds and I'm sure the 10 year old SithChicken would have loved TLJ, you just have to let your inner 10 year old watch the movie and not over analyse everything.

As for The Librarians being terrible????? It's really low budget, it's silly and everyone involved knows it. But instead of shying away from those things, the show leans into them and that makes it work because they aren't taking themselves seriously, again 10 year old SithChicken would love it.

10 year old SithChicken had better taste than that. Don't project your lack of desire to analyze art or entertainment upon me. You don't know me or what I like. SO do not make assumptions about me.

What is it about people defending this movie that makes them so condescending?

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2017, 12:06:31 PM »
Star Wars isn’t meant to be analysed. I don’t think you can analyse any science fiction or fantasy as thoroughly as some people are attempting to do with this movie, just to find reasons to call it a bad movie. You either liked it or didn’t and no amount of critiquing is going to change it. On the issue of plot writing, dues ex machine and Mary Sues and whatnot... well, I don’t know any fantasy or science fiction that doesn’t suffer from these things.

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong this statement is. I literally review science fiction and fantasy for a living. I can show you a hundred examples off the top of my head of science fiction and fantasy that doesn't suffer from those problems.

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2017, 12:26:53 PM »
Okay people calm down. No need to get angry and annoyed.
Everyone has their opinion. If you don't like it, that's okay. If you like it that's okay too.
It's just you don't have to tear down the other group who's opinion isn't the same.
What's good writing for one is bad writing for another and vice versa. Not everybody likes the same things after all.
It's okay to make a statement to express in which camp you are. But tearing down a person who's statement doesn't agree with your views, no matter which side you are on, isn't what this topic is about nor the point of it I think. so please calm down. Just say what you like, what you don't like and that's it.
Don't become rude because someone doesn't agree with your view or you don't agree with their view.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2017, 02:12:29 PM »
Being a nobody who came from nobody--that's Anakin Skywalker in a nutshell.  Sure, he may have been created by Darth Plagueis, but that isn't even canon...yet.

What is interesting to me is, out of all the countless fan theories, some of them were very clever and would have made for some great plot points.

I think Star Wars can be both analyzed by adults and enjoyed by children.  There are far too many personality types and individual interests in the world for someone to claim a work of art is 'X', and then expect everyone else to adhere to their understanding of it.  There are as many opinions as people.  Explaining why your own understanding is what it is--that's where good communication skills comes in.  Since we're dealing with both emotional and logical responses to film, there's going to be a lot of difference in how people experienced the films.  Logically, I saw flaws, and though they didn't outweigh the clever parts, there were a lot of them.  Emotionally, it was a joy to watch for me.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2017, 08:12:15 PM »
I think Star Wars can be both analyzed by adults and enjoyed by children.  There are far too many personality types and individual interests in the world for someone to claim a work of art is 'X', and then expect everyone else to adhere to their understanding of it.  There are as many opinions as people.  Explaining why your own understanding is what it is--that's where good communication skills comes in.  Since we're dealing with both emotional and logical responses to film, there's going to be a lot of difference in how people experienced the films.  Logically, I saw flaws, and though they didn't outweigh the clever parts, there were a lot of them.  Emotionally, it was a joy to watch for me.

^ This. I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2017, 08:37:22 PM »
^ This. I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to grasp.

Mostly I think because emotion is in it.  That can't be helped, but there was a lot less of "I found the writing to be flawed, and this is where I saw the flaws, maybe this is what I would change" and a lot of "Hack writing, this is crap, that is crap" etc.  Not helpful language, and it's the kind that puts people on the defensive.  Which is not great if a dialogue is meant to be opened in a thread.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2017, 08:41:11 PM »
Emotion is the enemy of reason.

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2017, 08:49:56 PM »
Peace is a lie!  There is only passion!

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2017, 09:40:20 PM »
Emotion is the enemy of reason.
I was going to say, "Actually several sociological--"

Then I got it...

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2017, 10:09:30 PM »
I was going to say, "Actually several sociological--"

Then I got it...

Got what? I wasn't making a reference to anything or a sly comment of some kind. That is my sincere belief backed by years of debate and psychology.

Offline WongBal

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2017, 10:13:57 PM »
I'm glad we've come back around to civil! This must be the most well-behaved Star Wars debate I've ever seen.

For me, analyzing a movie's flaws and strong points is more of a dissection process to help me figure out why I liked or didn't like it. I'll probably see TLJ again and who knows, my opinion may change. For example I enjoyed Star Trek Into Darkness when I first saw it and now I loathe it.

At this point I still feel like TLJ missed a lot of opportunities. But everyone speaking in its defense have raised good points. And it's by no means terrible. Even The Phantom Menace had good points.

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2017, 10:32:18 PM »
Quote
Emotion is the enemy of reason.

And yet the vast majority of humans are born with innate emotional senses, which can be honed into an emotional intelligence.  I think of emotion and logic as facets of human consciousness, but it is my belief that logic must be the one in charge.  I'm no psychiatrist, but my ex is, and I helped her study all those years for her degree, so I picked up some things along the way.  It's no hard science, for sure.

Quote
At this point I still feel like TLJ missed a lot of opportunities. But everyone speaking in its defense have raised good points. And it's by no means terrible. Even The Phantom Menace had good points.

Sure I can agree with this!  The Prequels, for all of their own failures, had some of the most satisfying emotional moments in the entire collection.  The silent scene where Anakin and Padme are looking out from their separate rooms, only being acted with facial expressions, was deeply satisfying in the way it communicated what they were experiencing. The opera house scene was masterfully acted by Ian McDiarmid.  And the finale of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel was intense and surprisingly well-acted.

For that matter, I've never felt the hatred for digital effects vs practical effects that so many people have expressed.  I don't get as easily taken out of the experience and have my immersion jolted by imperfect effects.  I grew up on some pretty terrible (in comparison) effects, especially with my dad loving to watch old Bruce Lee films and even older Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon serials.  For me, even films with poor effects (think Princess Bride) can be satisfying, if they excel in other areas.  As I mentioned before, Star Wars has never been outstanding with dialogue, but that's easy to overlook with the pace, effects, and space opera excitement.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2017, 10:36:11 PM »
And yet the vast majority of humans are born with innate emotional senses, which can be honed into an emotional intelligence.  I think of emotion and logic as facets of human consciousness, but it is my belief that logic must be the one in charge.  I'm no psychiatrist, but my ex is, and I helped her study all those years for her degree, so I picked up some things along the way.  It's no hard science, for sure.

None of which impacts my statement or really has anything to do with it. Emotion is animal nature and chemicals. Reason and logic are the tools by which we overcome those. Thus emotion is the enemy of reason.

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2017, 12:03:56 AM »
Logic is, by definition, animal nature and chemicals as well, because it is all based in the brain.  Humans are animals, too, just with highly developed brains--and thus highly developed emotional responses.  To call emotion the enemy of reason is as much to say blue is the enemy of orange...when both are simply aspects of their spectrums.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2017, 12:09:03 AM »
Logic is not by definition anything of the sort. Being based in the brain does not make it a function of chemicals and instinct. Logic is a discipline by which we overcome instinctive and emotional reactions. We use a process by which to overcome the animalistic urges inherent to our biology.

I actually have a degree in this field. I have devoted a great deal of my life studying the process' of logic and reason in the face of emotion. Written papers on the subject and everything. It's kind of one of my passions.

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Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2017, 06:12:45 AM »
Logic is not by definition anything of the sort. Being based in the brain does not make it a function of chemicals and instinct. Logic is a discipline by which we overcome instinctive and emotional reactions. We use a process by which to overcome the animalistic urges inherent to our biology.

I actually have a degree in this field. I have devoted a great deal of my life studying the process' of logic and reason in the face of emotion. Written papers on the subject and everything. It's kind of one of my passions.
I'm not going to get too deep into it, but I've read article after article and book after book by neuroscientists that say emotion is crucial to rational, logical decision-making ventures. To be totally without emotion not only lengthens the time you make any decision no matter how trivial to impractical levels, but actually causes you to be divested in your own life. I'm paraphrasing a book called Descartes' Error. It's counter-intuitive but a lot of people are holding to the theory.

That's all I'm going to say on that subject, because the tread's derailed enough as it is.

Offline TheSithChicken

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2017, 08:44:44 AM »
I'm not going to get too deep into it, but I've read article after article and book after book by neuroscientists that say emotion is crucial to rational, logical decision-making ventures. To be totally without emotion not only lengthens the time you make any decision no matter how trivial to impractical levels, but actually causes you to be divested in your own life. I'm paraphrasing a book called Descartes' Error. It's counter-intuitive but a lot of people are holding to the theory.

That's all I'm going to say on that subject, because the tread's derailed enough as it is.

That's good because you just Strawman'ed the hell out of my statement to make this last argument.

Offline Oniya

Re: Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2017, 12:07:50 PM »
This thread is being locked for no less than 24 hours.  Please review the rules on civility and remember that this is not a debate forum.