Boeing stuff - Info request

[AndyZ]

I was reading through this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/opinion/nocera-how-democrats-hurt-job-creation.html

I know people have said nasty things about Boeing and I was curious what the problem was.  If I was years behind on manufacturing, I'd open up another plant as well.

Maybe somebody can give me further perspective on this.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Long-delayed 787 wins FAA approval to enter service

This might provide some additional information.

[AndyZ]

Yeah, three years is crazy long.  So why is the Obama administration saying that it's in response to a union strike?  This other article agrees that they're best off opening another factory.

Thank you, though.

[Beguile's Mistress]

The original article that you cited is an Op-Ed piece and I tend to take those with a grain of salt.  I'm not disputing any facts included in that article only accepting the fact that opinion pieces are written with a particular point of view in mind.  When a subject interests me I try to find more information in "hard news" reports.  I admit that publications tend to be biased, also, but facts that are repeated from article to article and in various media sources tend to be reliable.

[AndyZ]

Totally agree that op-eds tend to be biased, but what I've noticed is that you can usually trust someone who has a slanted opinion when he says something good about the opposition or something bad about his own people.

The writer is clearly Democrat, so I can trust the harsh things he says about Democrats.  However, I see what you mean about wanting to check and make sure that it's true.  Thank you for that.

[Callie Del Noire]

One of the things Boeing likes to do is to pack there contracts by loading up on workers for a period of time on government contracts, then once they are ahead letting a lot go. Cuts out a lot of seniority and time related beanies. Then a year or so later, rehire folks in starting positions again.

[AndyZ]

Are government contracts steady or subject to significant flux?  I can understand that if they get contracts in bulk and those come and go, but it sounds sneaky otherwise.

However, that seems to contradict everything in the article, where they're years behind schedule, trying to start up a second factory (more jobs = ^_^) and being attacked for it.  What am I missing that these two don't seem to mesh?

[Callie Del Noire]

It's an op-Ed piece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op-ed

It's an opinion. Clearly antiunion and looking to blame all Boeings problems on anyone else. The P8A is something like SIX years behind schedule and Boeing has yet to outfit one single squadron to the navy. Yet it was a "better" choice than Lockheeds P3 replacement?  I have had 15 years experience in anti-sub/surface aircraft yet I can't get a job with Boeing to work on it because I lack 737 experience?

That would make sense if I was an engine or airframe guy but I work on avionics. Most of which Beoing will be getting from others. Strange.

The fun part is if Lockheed HAD gotten the contract, we'd have only paid half the tool up cost and the new P3 versions would be flying now. But Lockheed got the JSTF so to be 'fair' Boeing got the P8A.

Not to say Beoing is all bad. They have possibly the BEST supply division in the world. No one else can get a part anywhere in the world in under 48 hours. They just like to play silly games with contracts and blame others. 

[Vekseid]

I was reading through this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/opinion/nocera-how-democrats-hurt-job-creation.html

I know people have said nasty things about Boeing and I was curious what the problem was.  If I was years behind on manufacturing, I'd open up another plant as well.

Maybe somebody can give me further perspective on this.

Oh dear god, where to begin.

They quite literally have a policy of treating engineers and potential employees like shit. This was before their insipid 'let's outsource everything' craze. One friend was hired, told to pay their own move out to Washington, then when he arrived was told there wasn't a job available for him. Callie's comment combined with that should tell you enough about why they complain about not being able to retain talent. Keep in mind, this is the sort of talent that is still facing a whopping 3% unemployment rate even now.

Boeing (and a lot of other companies, but it's the most blatant with them) is finally realizing that outsourcing is not always a brilliant move. They've had delays across their development line because of it and last count was this cost them some five billion as of last year IIRC.

A lot of companies in America have forgotten that they rely on people. Boeing is just a chief example. In the 90's they were blaming Microsoft. They'll blame people until they collapse.

[Callie Del Noire]

Oh dear god, where to begin.

They quite literally have a policy of treating engineers and potential employees like shit. This was before their insipid 'let's outsource everything' craze. One friend was hired, told to pay their own move out to Washington, then when he arrived was told there wasn't a job available for him. Callie's comment combined with that should tell you enough about why they complain about not being able to retain talent. Keep in mind, this is the sort of talent that is still facing a whopping 3% unemployment rate even now.

Boeing (and a lot of other companies, but it's the most blatant with them) is finally realizing that outsourcing is not always a brilliant move. They've had delays across their development line because of it and last count was this cost them some five billion as of last year IIRC.

A lot of companies in America have forgotten that they rely on people. Boeing is just a chief example. In the 90's they were blaming Microsoft. They'll blame people until they collapse.

My brother, who works for Lockheed on the JSTF (Joint STrike Fighter), told me this practice they like to do on government contracts.

They will hired 25% or more above what they need for a contract, particularly for the military. They will work the crews, be they assembly teams or engineers, till they drop then about 2/3rd to 3/4s of the way through the contract..then cut manning by as much as 65% and then when they fall behind come up with all manners of excuses and use it as a way to renegotiate the contract with a longer time frame, more cash and rehire up the laid off workers back at starting rate with no compensation for lost time, seniority and such. No wonder the union wants assurances. The only reason that Boeing hasn't moved overseas or outsourced is the moment they do they know they are done. No more good boy contracts from the military and government.

The P-8A, the replacement for the aircraft I worked on for 10+ years, was SUPPOSED to be manning up for squadron deployments next year at the original contract time. The Navy MIGHT get their hands on run up units this coming year.. if they are lucky.

One little design secret, when you add a design feature like a bomb bay to an established airframe like 737, it is very difficult to pull off. Witness the fact that they are now SIX years behind original projection. It's easy to get a computer simulation to perform to work but moving it over to real life can be hand.

Don't get me wrong, Boeing isn't completely bad or incompetent. They have an extremely well laid out supply program and one of the best civilian maintenance programs there is for the aircraft industry. They have done a LOT for aircraft safety and design criteria but they need to realize that they have to change their business practices. Of course I think the industry as a whole needs to do a lot, of course I think that some of them have vastly unfair business advantages.

Like look into the perks and support that Airbus gets from the EU and various states within it.

If the US government did HALF the things that are given to help out the EU to any of the US companies they'd be mauled in the media for it.

[Dashenka]

Well as a big fan of Boeing I do have to stand up for them a bit.

First of all, they did produce two very good new aircraft and if they are a success, they will provide a fully loaded factory again. The 787 is now finally being produced and the 747-8 and 747-8i have also finalized their approvals.

Secondly, they are about to begin on the new projects of upgrading and modernizing the 737 and 777, which will also provide lots of work.

Third and maybe most important. I know they have gotten a big order from the US government for the new military aircraft. With the war in Iraq over, Osama dead, and the American economy more dead than alive, there is no priority for that order. Neither from the government nor from Boeing. They need to specialize as it is a highly competitive business they are in. They can´t keep a workforce they cannot pay because the moment they will overprice their products, there will be other markets taking over.

Boeing is a big employer in the US and if they cannot be competitive with European and Asian products, they will go down, so will have to sack people and when things get better, hire new people again. You can´t blame a company to try and make a profit. The outsourcing is just part of cost reduction. Setting up a whole new division of people to research and build a small part of a plane will cost more than to outsource it. The advantage of outsourcing is that it generates work at other places as well.

As far as the delays go, name one aircraft that has ever been delivered on time? Airbus A380? Two years delayed. Even smaller manufacturers manage to delay production simply because there is always unforeseen factors and where Toyota or other Japanese car makers accept the risk and produce it anyway, I thank the Lord that aircraft manufacturers are a bit more careful with that.

At the moment, Boeing are in the worst place imagineable for the products that they make.

[MasterMischief]

Totally agree that op-eds tend to be biased, but what I've noticed is that you can usually trust someone who has a slanted opinion when he says something good about the opposition or something bad about his own people.

That is a seriously flawed assumption.

[Oniya]

That is a seriously flawed assumption.

In what manner?  Wouldn't it take some internal wrestling for a biased person to admit they could be wrong about their position in any way?

[MasterMischief]

Certainly.  You still have to assume that the biased person is in fact biased as he says.