What's in the news?

[Trigon]

It's unquestionable that we'll need as much unofficial transparency as we can get, since Trump and the GOP in general won't want people knowing what they are up to. But I think LB was saying that there's not a huge gap between being the next Edward Snowden, and wanting to be the next Edward Snowden but ending up causing genuine damage instead. We'll already be on extremely unstable ground as far as foreign affairs go with someone as volatile as Trump at the helm, someone with good intentions letting something sensitive out - I'm thinking closer to the diplomatic cables leaked by Chelsea Manning than the NSA reveals by Snowden.

I understand the concern. The only thing I would ask is what you would define as "genuine" damage? What makes the diplomatic cable leak from Manning different or less damaging from the Snowden leaks?

Let us remember that it's already been proven some time ago that the the NSA surveillance programs don't do anything for public safety anyway, and it sure isn't deterring any of the real threats to our nation. It's already broken from the get go.

[TheGlyphstone]

I was arguing that the cable leaks were more damaging, because they didn't do anything useful. Snowden revealed that the NSA was spying on U.S. citizens domestically, and rather extensively, which was both illegal and ineffective. The cables were simply private communications that didn't accomplish anything except embarrass us on the international stage and damage our foreign relations. Plus, things like the Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative list mixed in with the other stuff were actually potentially incredibly damaging - and whatever Manning's motives were, I don't think she actually intended to hand out a public list of all our global infrastructural weak points so much as it was just part of the giant collection of files labeled 'diplomatic correspondence' she handed over to WikiLeaks. That sort of thing could be the poison pill in a do-gooder's whistleblowing.

[Trigon]

TheGlythstone.... you are a smart guy. We do have our disagreements for sure, but please understand what I am about to say.

Let us reiterate the facts, and state the simple and the obvious:

1) First, the USA has just elected a reality TV star to be the President. Who happens to be a complete megalomaniac, and has shown admiration for brutal dictators.
2) Obama is about to hand over the entire NSA surveillance network to him, without any resistance whatsoever. And more, such as the nuclear codes.
3) He is on public record for saying so many disturbing things that... there is simply no point in reiterating it all here.
4) Many of which, by the way, are all lies. And he's proud of that.

At least the Germans back in 1933 could (very weakly) claim ignorance as to the true nature of Hitler, though it is a ]flimsy excuse at best (just open the tab listed as "Real Life", and look at the first bullet point). The USA, on the other hand, has absolutely no excuse whatsoever. Especially since we have had decades of hindsight here, particularly if you are a either a Millennial or a Gen-X'er. 

Just look at this picture below, when the rest of the White House staff learned about Donald Trump's victory:




What more does anyone need here?

Again, I'm just stating the simple and the obvious. And for all those reading this and can't help but feel a bit of dread, you are in fact justified in feeling that way. Grieve, mourn, cry, panic, and be very very angry, for it is completely justified.

And yes, I absolutely agree that we can convert this into positive energy, and that we should channel that energy towards counter-balancing and resisting all the hate and misinformation that Trump will inevitably spew in the coming years. But first, we must understand the enormity of the situation, before we can successfully resist. 

Snowden at the very least has informed us of the magnitude of the problem here when it comes to domestic surveillance, and that we were lucky that the Obama administration had some vague sense of restraint. Can we really expect Trump to have the same restraint here???

[TheGlyphstone]

 ???

...what does any of that have to do with my post, though? I'm really baffled. No one is disputing that Trump will be a horrible president, or that Snowden blew the whistle on something that needed to be exposed. We're currently disputing whether or not a theoretical whistleblower within the Trump presidency could accidentally cause genuine harm to America - not Trump's administration, but America itself - in the process of blowing said whistle, with Manning's expose of the diplomatic cables including the CFDI list as a prime example.

[Trigon]

The point I'm trying to make is that you don't need a whistle-blower to cause genuine harm to America under a Trump presidency, as Trump is more than capable of doing that all by himself.

I challenge you to list what possible harm a whistle-blower can possibly do at this point, in light of all that. Don't you think we need to double down on whistle-blowing here???

Is public trust in government at stake here? It's already too late for that:

[Trigon]

Do you think whistle-blowing is even necessary to cause a crisis? In 1939 the Nazis have proven that you don't need such a thing when you can just simply fabricate a crisis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

What possible harm did the White Rose movement do to Hitler's regime (before the Fall of Berlin). They are about the closest you can get to a contemporary whistle-blowing campaign in this day and age....

[Trigon]

Oh yeah, by the way, Donald Trump plans on expanding the NSA surveillance program.

And given that he has proven that he is more than capable of staying up past 3 am in the morning just to stalk other women on Twitter, what makes anyone here think that he will show even nominal restraint?

Where exactly did Snowden go wrong here in leaking information about the NSA? It was already unethical and, yes, illegal indeed, to begin with under Obama. And yet no government in the West wants to grant him asylum or clemency. Have they gone insane?

[Lustful Bride]

Trevino I think you are kind of missing the point.... but more importantly the thread has been derailed abit,

In good news.

US forgiving $108 billion Students debt

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-us-will-forgive-over-dollar108-billion-in-student-debt%e2%80%94wildly-more-than-anyone-thought/ar-AAkYcIy?ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

[Cassandra LeMay]

Where exactly did Snowden go wrong here in leaking information about the NSA? It was already unethical and, yes, illegal indeed, to begin with under Obama. And yet no government in the West wants to grant him asylum or clemency. Have they gone insane?

Asylum is intended to shield people from persecution for their race, religion, or political views. It is not intended to shield someone from a legitimate criminal prosecution. That Snowden's motives may have been political doesn't change the fact that those (political) motives lead him to do something that is not just illegal in the USA, but would also be illegal in pretty much every other Western country.

[Trigon]

Asylum is intended to shield people from persecution for their race, religion, or political views. It is not intended to shield someone from a legitimate criminal prosecution. That Snowden's motives may have been political doesn't change the fact that those (political) motives lead him to do something that is not just illegal in the USA, but would also be illegal in pretty much every other Western country.

So just because the state declares something to be "illegal" must therefore also mean that the law pushed forward is "just", and that the state should have free reign to do whatever it wants to those they disagree with? Socrates would be rolling around in his grave just about now...

Not to mention also ironic, as the surveillance program by the NSA is in fact blatantly unconstitutional...

Besides which, the act of granting asylum to political refugees who have leaked state "secrets" is neither new or unprecedented in modern history (defectors from the USSR come to mind here, and we do this all the time for high ranking North Korean defectors), so I'm not sure why anyone would have a hard time with the idea of giving Snowden the same benefit here. That it happens to be from the supposedly free USA should make no difference.

Trevino I think you are kind of missing the point.... but more importantly the thread has been derailed abit,

I disagree. I believe I hit the nail on the head here. And the reason I am adamant about my case here is because, as Orwell once said, to see what's in front of ones nose requires a constant struggle. Especially when it comes to an online debate.


But yes, I will concede that this is a topic for another thread, so if anyone still wants to contest the issue, let's agree to do this elsewhere.

[Trigon]

In other news, the inventor of the IBM mainframe has recently passed away: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/technology/erich-bloch-who-helped-develop-ibm-mainframe-dies-at-91.html

Erich Bloch was certainly a brilliant man, and if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have online forums to post on.

[Cassandra LeMay]

Mass trial of HIV vaccine begins in South Africa.

[Lustful Bride]

The recent Gatlingburg Wildfire has put a new meaning to Hell on Earth.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/inside-the-gatlinburg-fires-apocalyptic-wasteland/ar-AAkZC7z?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

[Beorning]

More scary news from Poland...

Currently, PiS is trying to make changes to our laws related to public manifestations and protests. According to these changes, the manifestations organized by the government and the Church are going to be legally privileged. Meaning, if the opposition registers a public protest and, in reaction to that, the government organizes some sort of counter-protest at the same location, the opposition's protest would be cancelled. Alternatively: remember these women's protests that took place a few months ago against the changes in anti-abortion laws? According to this new law, such protests can be easily derailed. All that is needed is for the Church to come up with a manifestation of their own that would take place in the same location. Then, the pro-choice protest would have to be cancelled, because the new law states that Church manifestations take precedence... even if they are registered *later*.

Horrible  :-[

[TheGlyphstone]

I wonder if Trump is taking notes.

[Sara Nilsson]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/01/health/teen-suicide-cyberbullying-trnd/index.html

18 year old girl kills herself over bullying, and as always.. nothing the police can do due to how the internet works. Well then we need to find a way around that, a young person should have to be bullied to the breaking point and then past that. Fucking hell..

I was bullied a lot in school, but since I am older then dirt this was long before the internet and cellphones so my parents could at least walk over to the people who bullied me and put a stop to it once I told them what was going on (which took a long time granted). So i can just imagine the HELL kids must go through today with the internet and such.

So angry right now.

[Cassandra LeMay]

Scientists discover link between gut bacteria and Parkinson's disease.

It's too early to tell if this will eventually lead to treatments for Parkinson's, but it appear to be a big first step in the right direction.

[Trigon]

Was the Carrier "deal" actually a deal, or now just a form of crony capitalism: http://www.npr.org/2016/12/02/504042185/is-trumps-deal-with-carrier-a-form-of-crony-capitalism?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=storiesfromnpr

I'm going to guess the latter as most of those jobs are still going to Mexico anyway, while the rich get yet more money...


Also, the first casualty in Trump's dictatorship looks set to be voting rights: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/us/politics/voting-rights-donald-trump.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/

[Beorning]

More on the bill restricting freedom of protests in Poland:

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/282675,Polish-MPs-approve-ban-on-counterrallies

*bangs head against the wall*

[Sara Nilsson]

More on the bill restricting freedom of protests in Poland:

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/282675,Polish-MPs-approve-ban-on-counterrallies

*bangs head against the wall*

oO that is honestly really really scary!

[Trigon]

oO that is honestly really really scary!

A preview of what is to come here. Fascism is being voted in, literally without a fight...

[Anteros]

Jury to continue deliberating in ex-South Carolina cop's murder trial: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south-carolina-shooting-slager-idUSKBN13R260?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

Rising GOP star Virginia Foxx called motive in Matthew Shepard murder a ‘hoax’: http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/12/rising-gop-star-virginia-foxx-called-motive-matthew-shepard-murder-hoax/

Donald Trump Sues to Stop Recount in Michigan: http://theslot.jezebel.com/donald-trump-sues-to-stop-recount-in-michigan-1789622874?rev=1480720652371&utm_campaign=socialfow_jezebel_twitter&utm_source=jezebel_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

[Lustful Bride]

US Veterans meet with Tribal leaders in Support of their protest of the Dakota Pipeline.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-veterans-to-meet-with-tribe-elders-in-pipeline-protest/ar-AAl5I6t?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

[Trigon]

More potshots fired at the First Amendment by the Trump regime. In particular, Corey Lewandowski is suggesting that the head of The NY Times should be jailed for having published Trump's leaked tax returns from 1995: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58431e3be4b017f37fe4e8e4

[Cassandra LeMay]

Far-right candidate loses presidential election in Austria.