Interracial Roleplaying - How do you feel?

[la dame en noir]

I have no issue with interracial pairings, in play or in real life.

Perhaps because of my personal background (my own family is a rainbow of colors and cultures), I've always found it rather odd that people would give much importance to the skin color of a relationship's participants. It took me a while to discover that some people found others with a phenotype different than their own repulsive.

It is seldom just a matter of preference either. A mere preference for people sharing their skin color would make one choose someone of their own ethnicity over someone different, but it shouldn't make one outright dismiss someone different in the absence of more appealing competition.
Someone refusing to RP with a character of another skin color is showing overt dislike and rejection. The fact that this prejudice would extend even to someone's fantasies is kind of mindboggling to me.

This is exactly how I think. I just don't get the concept. I really don't, a lot of it stems from our culture.

[Tamhansen]

I'll doubt you'll find much disagreement on that on E! (All these lefty bleeding heart liberals :P:P:P ) Seriously though, I really don't think playing with someone of a different colour writer or character should ever be an issue. That said, I rarely play someone with a different ethnic background than my own, simply because often, there is an expectance of a certain culture involved, and I don't really know if i can accurately portray said culture.

[Lustful Bride]

This is exactly how I think. I just don't get the concept. I really don't, a lot of it stems from our culture.

I wouldn't say it stems 100% From our culture, since as Humble Scribe pointed out, eh was driscriminated against overseas in China and Japan. I personally had a teacher who was part of a group that went to China and all the Blacks and Hispanics in her group were singled out by the locals, given looks and stares that were a mix of curious and hostile.

Its more like cultural flotsam that resides with all humans that no matter how much we try and throw it out, some of it always remains and sometimes grows back to replace what we threw out.

[Anteros]

I'll doubt you'll find much disagreement on that on E! (All these lefty bleeding heart liberals :P:P:P ) Seriously though, I really don't think playing with someone of a different colour writer or character should ever be an issue. That said, I rarely play someone with a different ethnic background than my own, simply because often, there is an expectance of a certain culture involved, and I don't really know if i can accurately portray said culture.

Well as long as the game take place in a cosmopolitan setting, it souldn't pose too much trouble. Culture, origin and phenotype are not synonymous, after all. Your character should be an individual, not a stereotype.  ;)

[Tamhansen]

I agree. Yet expextations play a major role. And so does culture. Even in real life. Look at all those Americans who say barack obama isn't a black guy because he acts too white. Not sure what acting white is, but its the kind of thing I hear with acting and role playing as well.


Worse, one time I did play a black man, I was accused of blacking up. Hadnt written a single word yet.

[Blythe]

As far as interracial RPing goes...I suppose I've technically written interracial RPs, but that's never how I actually thought of them. I tend to think of my RPs as about people in general rather than thinking overmuch about ethnicity. I've found that the more I try to focus on the "right" way to write non-white characters, the more I overthink it and lose sight of the fact that people are people, regardless of skin color, and really the best I can do is just do a little research and have fun crafting a new character. ^^

I start off thinking of a character concept I'd like to play, like "computer hacker genius!" and I typically just pick an appearance based on whatever wows me. Then I just write my characters like interesting people and tend not to overthink things about skin color. I figure if I get something particularly awry/incorrect, my writing partners would just casually mention it, and I can take the constructive criticism in stride and edit/improve my writing.

I do want to write more non-white characters (and I pretty much don't care about the ethnicity my writing partners want for their characters beyond a passing interest in which model they might use for a face claim/what art they'd use + a few extra details, mostly minor ones). Mostly this is because I just like expanding my variety/repertoire of characters I want to write, though.

Maybe I just don't think about it as much as I should? :/

I used to worry about this sort of thing a lot more until I realized...I'd much rather try to push myself and make mistakes (and improve myself over time) rather than let my hesitance goad me into not trying.

[Anteros]

I'm sorry you had to experience that. I'd never even seen the expression "blacking up" before. For what it's worth I don't think you did anything wrong.

As for Barack Obama acting white... what is that even supposed to mean? There are hundred of millions of white people of dozens of nationalities and even more ethnicities. Anybody saying those people are all supposed to behave the same way and that they have a sort of monopoly on specific behaviors should probably be regarded with the highest suspicion. 

[Tamhansen]

blacking up  is used to denote white people who paint themselves black. Originally only used for people doing it to perform derogatory stereotypes of black people (Good example being minstrel groups in the US in the 20's who painted themselves into exagerated versions of black stereotypes known as blackface

trigger warning

A more recent parody of this idea was portrayed by Robert Downey junior in the ben stiller movie Tropic thunder, where he plays a white australian hired to play a black guy.

But in recent times it has also become used to denote white people portraying less negative stereotypes of black people, or even in certain cases I've seen the internet gone crazy over larpers who'd painted themselves black to portray Drow.

As for Obama. Well I guess it has to do with perception.

[Sirian Eve]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I can definitely understand where you are coming from. I often thought it may have been due to the over-saturation of caucasians seen not only on television, but comics, anime, and books. It is a sad, beyond sad that you have to deal with that in areas where the imagination is supposed to be most expressive. I am also a person of color, female person of color and I like to use that as huge plus sign when writing stories or coming up with characters. I feel it makes the character more unique because it's not something you see heavily in fantasy or science-fiction like you said.

I've never personally experienced discrimination when it comes to roleplay. Most of my partners have been very open, but you always wonder. Don't let that deter you from what gives you joy though. Some people just are to close-minded. You ask why is it that they prefer light characters and when you get down to the bottom of it some people just  prefer to exercise discretion with characters they can see themselves having more common ground with.

I however...enjoy all the colors of the rainbow.  ;) Do I have a preference? Yes, but that may be my insistent craving for a good L.A. Banks novel.

[Skynet]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I can definitely understand where you are coming from. I often thought it may have been due to the over-saturation of caucasians seen not only on television, but comics, anime, and books. It is a sad, beyond sad that you have to deal with that in areas where the imagination is supposed to be most expressive. I am also a person of color, female person of color and I like to use that as huge plus sign when writing stories or coming up with characters. I feel it makes the character more unique because it's not something you see heavily in fantasy or science-fiction like you said.

I've never personally experienced discrimination when it comes to roleplay. Most of my partners have been very open, but you always wonder. Don't let that deter you from what gives you joy though. Some people just are to close-minded. You ask why is it that they prefer light characters and when you get down to the bottom of it some people just  prefer to exercise discretion with characters they can see themselves having more common ground with.

I however...enjoy all the colors of the rainbow.  ;) Do I have a preference? Yes, but that may be my insistent craving for a good L.A. Banks novel.

Might be a nitpick, but a lot of Japanese designers and fans don't automatically intone light-skinned anime characters to be caucasian. In fact, over there it's a steretoype that most white people are blonde and have prominent noses, so when they wish to designate a caucasian character they use those features. Of course this is also an inaccuracy, and doesn't change the fact that darker-skinned characters are underrepresented in anime, and that manga set in Europe (like Fullmetal Alchemist) often has characters drawn the exact same way as anime set in Japan.

But it's a thing that pops up due to differing perceptions from West/East fandoms and emphasis on certain features. And that Japanese people are overall lighter-skinned than other East Asian groups (from what I've seen).

I've seen the claim that "people read their own races into characters," but in regards to manga I don't see many fans of African, Indian, or Native American heritage saying that most anime characters look like them. So I think it's the skin tones.



In related to your second bolded note, I always found the primarily white casts on sci-fi shows amusing, considering that several countries today with the largest space programs include China, South Korea, Iran, and Japan in addition to Russia and Western nations. Take for example Firefly, where it was implied that China had a big presence in space colonies, but no Chinese actors or characters were present on the show itself.

I recall of how Star Trek (Original Series) was advanced for its time with Uhura and Sulu as Enterprise crewmembers. If it were released in the modern day I get the feeling it'd be derided as "too politically correct!"  :P

[Sirian Eve]

Very true.

I do remember growing up watching Sailor Moon and thinking " They can have naturally blue and green hair, but not dark skin?"

As for science-fiction and fantasy I liked seeing representatives of the rest of the human race wherever I found them. In regards to firefly I really latched on the character of Zoe (I think that's her name) because she is a strong woman of color. However there's a whole history behind afro futurism and the great space race. I'm just a believer of equal representation.

[la dame en noir]

I agree. Yet expextations play a major role. And so does culture. Even in real life. Look at all those Americans who say barack obama isn't a black guy because he acts too white. Not sure what acting white is, but its the kind of thing I hear with acting and role playing as well.


Worse, one time I did play a black man, I was accused of blacking up. Hadnt written a single word yet.

Acting white = Being Educated/Intelligent

Its always meant that and it needs to stop.

[la dame en noir]

I wouldn't say it stems 100% From our culture, since as Humble Scribe pointed out, eh was driscriminated against overseas in China and Japan. I personally had a teacher who was part of a group that went to China and all the Blacks and Hispanics in her group were singled out by the locals, given looks and stares that were a mix of curious and hostile.

Its more like cultural flotsam that resides with all humans that no matter how much we try and throw it out, some of it always remains and sometimes grows back to replace what we threw out.

I'm specifically talking about American culture and the dominance of white beauty.

[Lustful Bride]

I'm specifically talking about American culture and the dominance of white beauty.

Il give you that one.

I always just stuck with what my Dad said once,
"Racism, sexism, etc. are all just concepts invented by someone to use to justify their hate, exploit others, or to hide the fact that they themselves are a piece of shit."

He wasn't much one for mincing his words. :/ 

Then again what is beauty? :P Certainly not those plastic models we have shoved in our faces 24/7

[Nachtmahr]

Then again what is beauty? :P Certainly not those plastic models we have shoved in our faces 24/7

Well, isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?

I'm sure that some people consider these "Plastic Models" beautiful, otherwise they simply wouldn't be used as often as they are. Hell, I know one girl who had her body augmented since nature had decided that she shouldn't have much in the way of breasts, and it helped her through something of a personal crisis. A personal crisis that was as valid as any, I might add.

I think it's important that we don't end up doing exactly what we're arguing against here: Generalizing and becoming the arbiters of what is and is not beauty.

Victoria Secrets has no right to claim that they have found the universal answer to what beauty is, but neither do we.

[Renegade Vile]

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

I, for one, do, though it still depends on the race in question. I have my visual preferences like everyone else does but I don't have an issue with female characters of any race so long as I can imagine it fitting with my own character in question. Additionally, I usually look at it from the character's standpoint and try to give them preferences that are different from my own. But that's somewhat off-topic.

Are you curious?

No need to be.

How do you feel about this interaction and have you seen it before?

I have no positive nor negative feelings on this issue and I have seen it before. To me, race makes absolutely no difference beyond aesthetics. A person's race tells me absolutely nothing about them aside from assumptions based on probability. Most black people I would meet where I live would come from Africa, so I can assume they adhere to one or more African cultures. But, I could be completely off the mark, since the person could have been born and raised in Flanders, speak Flemish and otherwise be as Flemish as I am, and not-African as I am. We have to call a group something, but I inherently think it's flawed to group people together by the color of their skin or their ethnicity when trying to do anything but describe common visual traits among them. Just being white doesn't make me American, Flemish, British or Spanish in any way, shape or form. As such I also have no problem with someone who doesn't like role playing romantic games with women of color. If they don't find common visual traits of that ethnicity appealing, who are any of us to tell them that's wrong?

I just need some clarity, because I have never felt so inhumane and hurt before.

You might be taking this person's preferences a bit too personal, lady La Noire. Unless they were rude and callous about it. It is also wrong that they approached under this pretense even though you stated clearly you role play as black women. But, that aside, don't you have preferences as well? I'm sure you like certain facial shapes more than others? Things like that. In the same vein, some men and women like dark skin, some don't. Sexual attraction is about a mix of the physical and mental, and I don't think most people can just separate the physical element from it.

As for the ideal of white beauty, why should that automatically be linked to racism? Most people, even in multi-cultural environments, still grow up near people of their own race. Your childhood is probably the most defining period of when your idea of what is attractive takes root. I honestly don't think movies and tv shows have that big of an impact on it, but rather the people around you and interactions with them do. If you grow up surrounded mostly by white women, odds are, you're going to be primarily attracted to white women. That doesn't mean you will -only- be, but there is going to be a skew in their favor. It's familiarity and nothing more. On the flipside, some people experience the exact reverse and find other races to hold something 'exotic' (a dirty word, for some reason, even though it just refers to them being different from what you're used to seeing. Different is also a dirty word these days despite the fact that -everyone- is different) and are attracted to that instead. Again, I doubt the media has much of a play in this as the media caters to what people want, it does not dictate what people want.

White guys on average have a predisposition towards white women. As far as I know, white people still make up the majority in America when dividing it into ethnicities. To reach the biggest demographic in the easiest way they can, companies will cater to that group. I agree that it's about time there's some variety put forth, but good luck convincing media conglomerates to put in more money and effort when they can take the easy way out.

...

This may have gone entirely off topic, I only really read the first few posts of this thread.

[Renegade Vile]

Perhaps because of my personal background (my own family is a rainbow of colors and cultures), I've always found it rather odd that people would give much importance to the skin color of a relationship's participants. It took me a while to discover that some people found others with a phenotype different than their own repulsive.

The people who find others repulsive are extreme examples, but otherwise, what's so hard to understand? Everyone has preferences and a different ethnicity is more than just another skin color. A whole slew of visual differences come packed with it, all of which contribute to the appearance of the person in question. If many of those traits are not in line with what the person finds attractive, why should they force themselves to be attracted anyway? What sense does that make?

It is seldom just a matter of preference either. A mere preference for people sharing their skin color would make one choose someone of their own ethnicity over someone different, but it shouldn't make one outright dismiss someone different in the absence of more appealing competition.

Why? You just said there is more appealing competition. Why would someone not go for as appealing as they can? I'm not disputing there is more to a person and a relationship than skin color and physical attraction (way more) but it is still a key element in the psyche of most people. So why would they not prioritize the person they are the most attracted to?

Someone refusing to RP with a character of another skin color is showing overt dislike and rejection. The fact that this prejudice would extend even to someone's fantasies is kind of mindboggling to me.

Heaven forbid someone reject something they dislike. Unless it's done in a rude, callous, aggressive or otherwise malign fashion, what is wrong with someone's fantasies not including women of a certain skin color/ehtnicity/what have you?

[Nachtmahr]

Heaven forbid someone reject something they dislike. Unless it's done in a rude, callous, aggressive or otherwise malign fashion, what is wrong with someone's fantasies not including women of a certain skin color/ehtnicity/what have you?

I have to partially agree with this, but add that the idea that rejecting a fictional character because of how they look should not be taken as someone showing "Overt dislike and rejection" of that type of person in general. If you genuinely find people with a dark color of skin less sexually attractive, that does not show "An over dislike" of that type of person. It shows that you don't necessarily want to sleep with them in a scenario (A fantasy) that is completely under your control, where you can have pretty much anything you like.

I think it's actually absurd to say that a person is outright prejudiced if their sexual fantasies do no include people of color, but center around one particular skin color. Gay roleplayers who reject female characters are not misogynist, and unless someone is indeed being rude or callous you're crossing the line by calling out prejudice/distaste/racism where there is none to be found.

It's only natural for people to carry over their sexual interests into the stories they write, so it confuses me why you'd think people are prejudiced when carrying over their sexual preferences. It feels like you are putting any rejection for any reason into the same box, and choosing to take them all personally regardless of context. People are all wired differently though, and everyone does not find everything attractive.

If someone rejected you, stating that: "I don't want to play with you because you want to play (Or you are) a black person, and I don't like black people." Then I fully agree that we may have a problem and that this person is showing a troublesome view of their fellow humans. You'd not even be blamed for calling it racist or prejudiced.

But if someone rejects you because: "I don't find black people sexually attractive, I'm sorry." Then we're in a situation where no one is at fault. You're not in the wrong for wanting to play out your preferences, but neither are they. It's not close-minded or offensive to find someone unattractive.. It's just natural. Some people like different things.

I think muscular black men in particular are fiercely attractive, and I have a profound love for black women for reasons I probably shouldn't go into in this thread, but some people would disagree with me. Some people would say "No, I think Arab women are the most gorgeous, mysterious and seductive!" and others still will say "No, the chubby white girl next door, that is the ultimate in female beauty!".

Everyone is free to pick and choose, and no two people have the exact same preferences. Human sexuality is like a herd of Zebras. Some like large people, some like muscular people, some like black people and some like white people. Unless they are being offensive or aggressive about it, then no one really has any right to say that anyone should be writing stories they don't enjoy as much as they possibly could. I personally would happily play out interracial stories. Doing so is quite vanilla compared to most of the stories I write to be honest. But not everyone feels the same way, and that's okay. Not finding someone sexually attractive isn't a sign for distaste, hatred or prejudice towards that person.

[Renegade Vile]

I cannot agree more, lady Nachtmahr.

[la dame en noir]

SIGH

The idea of Eurocentric standards of beauty do stem from racism. I'm sorry, but I do not understand or agree with finding someone repulsive because of the color of their skin. Many people of different cultures are raised to reject people of dark skin, even if it means forcing their kids to marry someone of fairer skin, bleaching their skin, and obtaining ideals that are more closely related to European genetic traits.

This is especially true in cultures where people are of a darker skintone. It is very prevalent in African, Black-American, Latino, Asian, and Indian cultures. I don't know how else to say this without getting red in the face. I can't comprehend it because I do not think that way.

Colorism is a huge thing in black communities. Often - black men and women(more often women) are ridiculed and put down if they're darker than what is acceptable. Parents will tell their kids to stay out of the sun, try skin bleachers, date a white or hispanic male/female so their grandkids have "light skin and good hair". In a lot of cultures being "dark" or "black" is ugly and that mindset is very toxic. This is why you have so many movements in different cultures to embrace loving who you are. Brazil East Asian

I had one white male tell me that he would fuck me, but would never marry a black woman because he doesn't want his kids to be black, look black, or carry any genetic diseases african-americans may have.

Even a London club was refusing entry to dark skinned black women.

It took me a VERY long time to love myself. I wanted so badly to be Asian or White anything that wasn't black because no one found me beautiful or worthy of marriage or anything intimate. Society is very harsh towards dark skinned woman and even harsher towards black women. Black women are on the lowest of the totem pole when it comes to dating.

[Kythia]

The idea of Eurocentric standards of beauty do stem from racism.

I think here is where you're losing people a little.  What you seem to be saying is that not being attracted to black (or non-European) people is itself a racist act and people are, understandably, arguing against that:-  It's pretty clearly not.  Arguing that the prevailing standards of worldwide beauty are heavily influenced by the European ideal is a stronger position, and one I'd likely agree with, but drilling that systematic issue down to an individual person being prejudiced (and I can't tell for sure whether you mean to do that or not, so apologies if you don't) is a step too far.

[la dame en noir]

I think here is where you're losing people a little.  What you seem to be saying is that not being attracted to black (or non-European) people is itself a racist act and people are, understandably, arguing against that:-  It's pretty clearly not.  Arguing that the prevailing standards of worldwide beauty are heavily influenced by the European ideal is a stronger position, and one I'd likely agree with, but drilling that systematic issue down to an individual person being prejudiced (and I can't tell for sure whether you mean to do that or not, so apologies if you don't) is a step too far.

Considering media? I'd have to disagree. It could be a preference or whatever anyone is calling it, or it could be that this person has a distaste for anyone that is black or dark skinned thats racist and I'm not sure how else to call it. This is from years of rejection and finding it hard to fit into a variety of things.

I was also responding another comment - I just lazily didn't quote it. When England/Portugal/Spain (just to name a few) have colonized and controlled other parts of the world, of course their ideal of beauty will be pushed forth and thus others will follow in that path. That's just how the world works and its not cute.

[Renegade Vile]

SIGH

The idea of Eurocentric standards of beauty do stem from racism. I'm sorry, but I do not understand or agree with finding someone repulsive because of the color of their skin. Many people of different cultures are raised to reject people of dark skin, even if it means forcing their kids to marry someone of fairer skin, bleaching their skin, and obtaining ideals that are more closely related to European genetic traits.

Depends entirely on how those standards of beauty are used. If they are used to deny people work by the color of their skin, I agree. If you look at it on a personal level, then I strongly disagree, because again, your preferences are your own. You cannot just blanket assume that everyone who isn't attracted to black people (or any other race for that matter) do so because they were indoctrinated from birth to do so. Those are, most likely, a minority. Also, there is a significant difference between finding someone of a different ethnicity 'repulsive' and not being attracted to them...
Also, define being 'raised' to reject people of dark skin? I do not know a single person who was told from birth to specifically reject anyone. If they do, it's always been a personal choice in my experience. I cannot speak for other locations on the globe though.

This is especially true in cultures where people are of a darker skintone. It is very prevalent in African, Black-American, Latino, Asian, and Indian cultures. I don't know how else to say this without getting red in the face. I can't comprehend it because I do not think that way.

Colorism is a huge thing in black communities. Often - black men and women(more often women) are ridiculed and put down if they're darker than what is acceptable. Parents will tell their kids to stay out of the sun, try skin bleachers, date a white or hispanic male/female so their grandkids have "light skin and good hair". In a lot of cultures being "dark" or "black" is ugly and that mindset is very toxic. This is why you have so many movements in different cultures to embrace loving who you are. Brazil East Asian

So basically, because some parents put such pressures on their own children, or some people do on other people of color, that automatically means that every single person who has a preference for certain visual aspects of a person on a sexual level (because again, we are talking purely about attraction here, they are not actively harassing, harming or even fighting with people of color, merely making the point that they do not find them attractive) is a racist? I'm certain that the perceived beauty ideal of white skin causes significant confidence problems in people of color and it is something that should be closely investigated and addressed, but that should not make it alright to force people to swallow their preferences and be "attracted" to everything and everyone. That is oppression of a different sort.

I had one white male tell me that he would fuck me, but would never marry a black woman because he doesn't want his kids to be black, look black, or carry any genetic diseases african-americans may have.

Then that ONE white male had issues that are beyond the scope of this discussion. Unless you think I, for example, am cut of the same cloth? You cannot blame everyone for one *sshole who was raised by idiots.

Even a London club was refusing entry to dark skinned black women.

Yes, ONE nightclub, owned by some racist. Again, tell me what this has to do with individual ethnic preferences for sexual attraction.

It took me a VERY long time to love myself. I wanted so badly to be Asian or White anything that wasn't black because no one found me beautiful or worthy of marriage or anything intimate. Society is very harsh towards dark skinned woman and even harsher towards black women. Black women are on the lowest of the totem pole when it comes to dating.

I'm not so sure about that. I've done some Googling on this matter and I've seen a ton of white guys who -want- to date black women, but seem to think they would not be interested in a 'white boy'. I've done similar searches for other ethnic combinations and I'm starting to think this is a problem everyone shares the moment they think about dating outside of their own skin color.
And you just said that you now love yourself, which is perfect, everyone should, but why does that mean that a hypothetical man should like everyone equally? You are comparing issues of racism with sexual preferences. It's exactly the same as demanding gay men should still be attracted to women or otherwise they are sexists because it will make women interested in them want to be more like men. There's no logical connection to any of that.

[Kythia]

Considering media? I'd have to disagree. It could be a preference or whatever anyone is calling it, or it could be that this person has a distaste for anyone that is black or dark skinned thats racist and I'm not sure how else to call it.

That was kind of my point.  Yes, it certainly could be racism.  But your statement seemed - and again apologies if that wasn't the way you intended it to be read - to be saying it was racism.  No other alternative.  That was what I was trying to pull out.

However, I think there's a problem in your wider consideration.  If we're willing to accept that preferring European looks over African ones can not be racism (as in "it is possible for it not to be..." not as in "can't be...") then your further contention that European standards being preferred is racism  takes a hit.  As you say yourself:

When England/Portugal/Spain (just to name a few) have colonized and controlled other parts of the world, of course their ideal of beauty will be pushed forth and thus others will follow in that path. That's just how the world works and its not cute.

There's no need for any prejudice to have happened here.  England conquers wherever.  Pushes English ideals of beauty (me, basically  ;D).  Original culture picks up cultural traits of colonial masters.  No racism needed.

[la dame en noir]

Sigh this is too much.

I'm accounting 1 incident out of MANY that I've encountered in my life. I can't sit here and explain it from a "minority" point of a view what many black women go through without someone saying "well this can't be true" because of what they encountered from the other side. Its not rocket science and its not hurting anyone what I'm saying.

By saying "you can not blame everyone" is basically acting is if I'm putting you with the people I'm talking about, you're making yourself the victim instead of looking at it like "this happens".

Again, I'm ending this conversation with you because it is too hard to get people to open up and just understand that shit happens globally.

Black people in general are seen as least attractive and sought after, it has been tested. I'm not making this shit up.

Thank you for you honest opinion.