Where do criminals come from?

Started by Beorning, August 19, 2018, 01:15:00 PM

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Beorning

Here's a question that's been haunting me for years - and I thought I could use your opinion. I'm posting it here in PROC, because it's a serious, sociological issue.

Basically, my question is: why do people become criminals?

For example, a few days ago I've watched some scenes from an Italian movie from the 1970s, The Big Racket. The movie is about a violent gang of criminals (including one very violent woman), who terrorize a small town with their protection racket. They beat people up, they set them and their property on fire, they even engage in rape. All pretty extreme, but I think that there are people like that out there. So, what makes them behave like that? I tend to believe (or, at least, want to believe) that all people have some basic empathy - so, what makes some people disregard this empathy and brutalize others?

Of course, not all criminals are violent - but the same problem applies. A con man, for example, swindles other people and steals their money, even though he / she knows it hurts the victims. So, why would they do it? What causes them to behave like that?

Any opinions?

Skynet

It sounds like you're using an example of those who are "career criminals," vs other types of crime.

Crime in general is something almost everyone does at some point in their life. Ever downloaded a movie, game, or soundtrack you were supposed to pay for? That's a crime.

As for more violent crime, a lot of it is heat in the moment or personal grudges. People get pissed off and can't control their temper, and then things escalate.

As for "career crime," it is often due to socio-economic factors. In some cases, particular with communities of social outcasts, some groups may be denied opportunities for a better life due to how the system is set up, and thus they end up going around the system to make a living. Another example is when said communities become distrustful of the police due to mistreatment, so they use their own methods of justice such as vigilante groups and/or taking the law into their own hands. The Black Panthers in the USA were intended to be a "police alternative" for black communities in California, for instance, and Chinese tongs in the Old West were formed to defend railroad workers from racist violence. Even the Italian Mafia was formed when the law could not be trusted in Sicily, and the term "mafioso" originated as a Sicilian word for private security entities who operated outside the government's purview.

Unfortunately some of these vigilante groups, either due to personal bias, lack of proper training and due process, or simple power and greed, end up engaging in harmful and illegal activity with varying levels of justification. Governments and police forces do not like unaccountable groups, especially ones who seek to pull communities away from trusting them in favor of what they (in many cases, rightfully) see as violent hoodlums and "dictators thinking they're Robin Hood" enforcing their will on the people they're charged with protecting or oppressing.

It's not always cases of poor and marginalized people. Very rich businesses cheat on taxes by transferring funds to tax-free havens. Or hire immigrants for sweatshop work to save money in spite of the terrible conditions. If a person knows that their status in society will give them some leeway, they're more likely to try and get away with unethical behavior with enough self-justification.

legomaster00156

I can't give a better answer than Skynet. Ultimately, you seem to be asking "why do people hurt other people", and that is a question psychologists and philosophers have grappled with since time immemorial. Rational beings tend to realize that what is good for society as a whole favors individuals, as well, and yet selfish behavior still persists.

Beorning

And that's what interests me, in part due to RP challenges :) I'd like to understand: how does one justify a serious crime? I know many people commit small crimes / misdemeanors occassionally (heck, only two weeks ago, my manager at the company I work at actually was encouraging me to swindle the company for some money from the social benefit fund...). But what about crimes that have obvious victims? For example, how does one justify beating up for their money, like in the movie in mentioned?

BTW. Some time ago, I saw a bit from one of these "jail doc" TV shows. It featured a young woman who calmly told of how she executed a defenseless cop while in a gang. She didn't seem to show any remorse... Do people like that have such strong justifications for what they do? Or is it a case of sociopathy?

Pumpkin Seeds

This is a fairly complex issue that involves many factors.  There are certainly some genetics that do play into violent behavior and predispose people to those acts.  People that either do not feel empathy for another person, those who are quick to anger and lash out and others who are always simply more aggressive.  I say predispose because from the studies I have seen nature only gives someone the cards, nurture is what really brings out the behaviors.  Inside every person rests the capacity to hurt another human being no matter how well intentioned or genetically conditioned to bring about no harm. 

Nobody ever views themselves as the villian in their own story.  Justification is a strong force in our mind and people go to great lengths to justify their actions.  Even when committing some of the most heinous crimes in history, the person doing them had a rationale that made sense to them.  The person was being harmed in some way by this other group, they had a greater need for whatever resource was being fought over at the time or the other person was simply not "a person."  There are many nuanced arguments and rationales people give for why they committed violence against someone else.

Also never underestimate the power of social pressure.  One of the most interesting lines I read regarding violence was from a Colonel in the army who did research into the willingness of soldiers to kill.  What he reported was that the last thing soldiers remembered before shooting was a commanding officer telling them to kill.  So they did not react to even being attacked, they reacted to someone in a position of power telling them to open fire. 

Eye of Horus

Stripping it back to its most basic level, people will break the law either due to a strong emotion or due to some perceived benefit that outweighs the often abstract risk of getting caught and punished.

Whether it was a “good” law or an oppressive one that they broke, or what caused them to feel that strong emotion, or what benefit they perceived and why they wanted it, are things that are going to be unique to the circumstances.

Curious Itch

I work in Juvenile Corrections with male offenders. Which has made me rethink preconceived notions I had about crime and criminality. Unlike adult corrections, staff in Juvenile corrections are encouraged to interact, redirect and attempt to "mentor" youth offenders. As a result I hear what brings them to jail, and they are often disarmingly honest about it. Of course what I say here still falls in the realm anecdotal. 

A good number of them (I would say the majority) have been raised in an environment where crime is the norm. That is to say at least one parent has been in incarcerated for a crime for at least a part of the juvenile offenders life. Often time this is a constant state. Much of this is gang related and gang culture permeates their thinking. While most of them do understand what they do is wrong, they often don't see another way. That is to say: They think they were born into "Street life".

Almost all (including the above group) have virtually no coping skills, or understanding of the deferred gratification. Sometimes this is a result of simply nonexistent authority figures in their lives, or because of one or more mental health issues. Sometimes these issues have been brought on by abuse. An alarming number of these young men say that when they arrive at our facility we are the first adults they have met that haven't actively harmed or ignored them. (I paraphrase of course, they're seldom that direct in their praise).

Some of them are just bad human beings. This is less common, but some of them I can only describe as straight up sociopaths.

A few ended up being criminals out of necessity. Though this is extremely rare.

The conclusion I've come too in regards to at least youthful criminals: The reasons they do the things they do, and are the way they are is exactly as varied as why people aren't criminals.

RedRose

I really understand local culture, social pressure, even turning a blind eye out of fear or whatever. But I think it takes something wrong in the head to target innocents, especially those universally seen as such (kids, etc). I've gotten in trouble a couple times in some countries for speaking up against, whatever it was, which they considered normal.
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]



Skynet

Another example I can think of is when degrees of separation help rationalize things.

Imagine the cigarette industry. The tobacco farmer says that he only grows the crops, and does not put it in the hands of people. The distributors claim that they're only moving around a product which already exists and will be consumed one way or another. The advertisers claim that they're not the ones who make it. But put it all together and you are selling death.

In a similar situation, many organized crime groups use money laundering in legitimate businesses and have "initiates" and unassociated people as fall guys. aka the difference between an actual Made Man and one who just happens to do some errands for the mob. Let's say there's a guy who is paid money to deliver a package to the docks at midnight and put it under a parked car. He's paid a lot of money, which can help pay for his kids' healthcare, and his only instructions are to not look at the contents and to avoid any cops.

"That package could be anything," he thinks. "It could be something really bad, like anthrax, but it's more likely to be a harmless drug such as marijuana."


This also ties into what is known as "victimless crimes." aka crimes which by definition do not inherently hurt or kill another person and which all parties consent. Many drug users operate on the theory of a fully-informed rational individual choosing what to put in their own bodies, or use examples of legal yet even more dangerous drugs such as alcohol and cigarettes to highlight the hypocrisy of laws. However, this isn't always the case; some people have very poor impulse control, and some of the more dangerous drugs such as crystal meth can screw up a person's life even if they use it willingly. There's also the problem regarding withdrawal of the more painful kind: when you're in constant torture for hours or days until you indulge, is such a person really a drug user of their own free will? Thus the laws against certain kinds of drugs. But then this ties back into the issue of consent, and how not all drugs and drug users are the same, which in turn is used to justify drug use.

Iniquitous

QuoteI tend to believe (or, at least, want to believe) that all people have some basic empathy - so, what makes some people disregard this empathy and brutalize others?

You want to believe this, but it is not true.  There are people that simply do not have the ability to empathize, or even sympathize, with others.  A sociopath/psychopath lack this ability.

Now, people that are that way could have been born that way (the wiring in the head is messed up) or they could have become that way through a violent/neglected childhood - which is the nature vs nurture discussion.

Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


MasterMischief

What Pumpkin Seeds says resonates strongly with me.  I believe it all really comes down to justification.  Some may require little justification (those who lack empathy) while it may take much more for others (people who have a strong sense of right vs wrong).  Entire nations once engaged in slavery.  Did the entire nation lack any empathy?  Or did an entire nation find sufficient justifications to turn a blind eye?

gaggedLouise

Entrenched poverty and the feeling of being locked in a state of impowerishment you cannot break out of, *is* a major factor. Not the only one of course, but often one that can't be denied. Especially if they continue from generation to generation - "what's the point of honest work, we can't get ahead for real in this way". And even more so if it's happening in a culture where people are flashing their consumption and their fat gadgets around to show who they are: without solid money, you are at risk of becoming a nobody.

Judas Priest's old breakout hit is a fun song (and a great video), but there's a serious message underneath about how abject powerty and lack of options in life breed crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L397TWLwrUU

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Eye of Horus

Quote from: MasterMischief on August 21, 2018, 07:09:36 AMSome may require little justification (those who lack empathy) while it may take much more for others (people who have a strong sense of right vs wrong).  Entire nations once engaged in slavery.  Did the entire nation lack any empathy?  Or did an entire nation find sufficient justifications to turn a blind eye?

I think this is a very good point. I mean, when you think about where your drugs came from (if you think about it at all), you probably don’t think any further than your dealer, who is in all likelihood a perfectly regular person. If pressed, you probably picture some harmless stoner growing your weed in an attic full of lamps and silver foil. You don’t picture immigrant kids doing slave labour in weed factories, or Colombian mobsters hacking people’s heads off so the cocaine can make it to your table.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: MasterMischief on August 21, 2018, 07:09:36 AM
What Pumpkin Seeds says resonates strongly with me.  I believe it all really comes down to justification.  Some may require little justification (those who lack empathy) while it may take much more for others (people who have a strong sense of right vs wrong).  Entire nations once engaged in slavery.  Did the entire nation lack any empathy?  Or did an entire nation find sufficient justifications to turn a blind eye?

Part of the justification (for the slave trade from Africa to America at least) was the idea that by bringing these men and women to be sold as slaves, they could at least get to know Christianity and get baptized, so they and their future children were given a great gift: the chance for their eternal souls to be saved. This sounds like a deluded justifier to most of us today, but in the 17th/18th centuries it was a very real idea. Then there was also the more crass notion that some races were destined to work and be enslaved by their superiors.

Even if "We are selling them as slaves and punishing them so that they may come to know the Gospel" sounds like a weird reasoning, that kind of self-serving or more or less cynical (pseudo-moral) justifications have appeared alongside many kinds of dire abuse and oppression. There is an infamous speech by Goebbels where he tells a rally of SS men that they were heroes who had to steel themselves to be able to kill as many Jews as possible, because in doing so they were serving the future. Seeing outright murder of innocents explained that way is extreme, but justifying the use of lies and deception in something like that way is not that uncommon.  :-X

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

RedRose

I think someone good would treat his slave "right"... Whatever right is in the situation… I also think someone good just would not be able to kill innocents even for the future. They may believe it is needed but doing it?
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]



gaggedLouise

Quote from: RedRose on August 22, 2018, 07:39:48 AM
I think someone good would treat his slave "right"... Whatever right is in the situation… I also think someone good just would not be able to kill innocents even for the future. They may believe it is needed but doing it?

Yeah, I didn't say those SS men were in any sense good of course. But sometimes reaching a future goal is a valid justification. In war for instance - I remember someone saying (and during the second world war) that what(generals do sometimes comes down to sending 50.000 men into a tough but necessary operation, where there will be lots of casualties, and putting medals of bravery on those who come out of it alive and victorious (and some of the men they had to eliminate/fire at would have been conscripted into service and wouldn't have had any choice except to fight in order to survive).

I think we're moving away from the topic of this thread though. :)

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Lustful Bride

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 22, 2018, 07:57:20 AM
Yeah, I didn't say those SS men were in any sense good of course. But sometimes reaching a future goal is a valid justification. In war for instance - I remember someone saying (and during the second world war) that what(generals do sometimes comes down to sending 50.000 men into a tough but necessary operation, where there will be lots of casualties, and putting medals of bravery on those who come out of it alive and victorious (and some of the men they had to eliminate/fire at would have been conscripted into service and wouldn't have had any choice except to fight in order to survive).

I think we're moving away from the topic of this thread though. :)


Quote from: RedRose on August 22, 2018, 07:39:48 AM
I think someone good would treat his slave "right"... Whatever right is in the situation… I also think someone good just would not be able to kill innocents even for the future. They may believe it is needed but doing it?

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 22, 2018, 05:04:36 AM
Part of the justification (for the slave trade from Africa to America at least) was the idea that by bringing these men and women to be sold as slaves, they could at least get to know Christianity and get baptized, so they and their future children were given a great gift: the chance for their eternal souls to be saved. This sounds like a deluded justifier to most of us today, but in the 17th/18th centuries it was a very real idea. Then there was also the more crass notion that some races were destined to work and be enslaved by their superiors.

Even if "We are selling them as slaves and punishing them so that they may come to know the Gospel" sounds like a weird reasoning, that kind of self-serving or more or less cynical (pseudo-moral) justifications have appeared alongside many kinds of dire abuse and oppression. There is an infamous speech by Goebbels where he tells a rally of SS men that they were heroes who had to steel themselves to be able to kill as many Jews as possible, because in doing so they were serving the future. Seeing outright murder of innocents explained that way is extreme, but justifying the use of lies and deception in something like that way is not that uncommon.  :-X


So this might or might not be on topic but Eichman in Jerusalem might be an interesting look at the way people justify horrific acts and just seem to blindly follow the worst of leaders.


Video which quickly looks over the topic

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Lustful Bride on August 22, 2018, 08:05:54 AM


So this might or might not be on topic but Eichman in Jerusalem might be an interesting look at the way people justify horrific acts and just seem to blindly follow the worst of leaders.


Video which quickly looks over the topic

*nods* As a less extreme example, and where most of the instigators were not actually ordered to obey, I remember hearing some interviews with people who imported Russian escorts to northern Sweden and kept them in a state close to sex slavery. These gang members and the local customers would then say: "we're doing these girls a service, they get to make money here on a scale they couldn't have made at home" (highly doubtful) "and we'll find nice clothes for them, so they're in no trouble..."  :-(

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

RedRose

Quote from: gaggedLouise on August 22, 2018, 08:16:48 AM
*nods* As a less extreme example, and where most of the instigators were not actually ordered to obey, I remember hearing some interviews with people who imported Russian escorts to northern Sweden and kept them in a state close to sex slavery. These gang members and the local customers would then say: "we're doing these girls a service, they get to make money here on a scale they couldn't have made at home" (highly doubtful) "and we'll find nice clothes for them, so they're in no trouble..."  :-(

I don't believe they really believe so...
I do believe a fanatic can be convinced it is the right thing to kill civilians. But between thinking so and managing to do it, sometimes repeatedly, in "real"?
Sending men to their death is also awful, but you can think (rightly so) that they are soldiers. Now, mandatory draft kinda defeats this justification.
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]