Religion...and SCIENCE! (Nee - Re: Oh..those people at westboro baptist are at it again! o3o)

[HairyHeretic]

I would say the answer is atheists. Often (but not always) to point how corrupt, evil, and destructive religion is as they point out the past. Often using it as a predlude to point out that it will happen again in the future

Even the more zealous catholic and christian friends at best rarely quote from the bible. It just doesnt work for debates because you get a lot of arguments going about religious script and close the minds of those you're debating. However a key debate tactic from atheists when religion or religious influenced stuff is involved is to deny logic and force the use of religious texts/scripts/rituals. Its something I find quite infuriating and a bit demeaning since its obvious that we dont follow the bible to the letter but instead let it influence our lives

Thats another coversation but I felt an alternative view point was needed after that comment

True, to a degree. The type you're referring to, I would describe as anti-theists, rather than atheists .. the more fanatical believers.

The type that cherry pick their quotes, atheist or religious, aren't looking for a debate. Their mind is already made up, and the quotes are there to support their position, nothing more. They're right, you're wrong, and here's the quotes to prove it.

[Silk]

I would say the answer is atheists. Often (but not always) to point how corrupt, evil, and destructive religion is as they point out the past. Often using it as a predlude to point out that it will happen again in the future

Even the more zealous catholic and christian friends at best rarely quote from the bible. It just doesnt work for debates because you get a lot of arguments going about religious script and close the minds of those you're debating. However a key debate tactic from atheists when religion or religious influenced stuff is involved is to deny logic and force the use of religious texts/scripts/rituals. Its something I find quite infuriating and a bit demeaning since its obvious that we dont follow the bible to the letter but instead let it influence our lives

Thats another coversation but I felt an alternative view point was needed after that comment

For a holy all knowing book of the all perfect god that is not nessersarily all that perfect full of contradiction etc. Athiests often bring such things with those that do claim that everything in the bible is true. That god told the writers what to write etc. You will find almost all Athiests don't give a damn about what people choose to believe, however I seriously doubt that it is "uncalled for" for us to point out holes in your claims when you make them.

The biggest group that Atheists tend to "fight" against are creationists, normally because they so dogmatically believe that the world is 6,000 years old, world wide flood, and that the dinosuar fossils were put there to test our faith etc.

Now Anti-thiests are a entirely different kettle of fish. They continue to make the same asserted claims that the religious do and most Athiests have nothing to do with them or outright go against them as well.

Besides, you make it sound like as if people are unjustified at picking out the holes in the bible. When you say christian that is a massive umbrella term that only has one connecting factor. The religious book in which christianity derives from.

[Wolfy]

As an Athiest, I think we can all agree that we officially give up on Kansas. o3o

[consortium11]

Stan Lee can be my god any time.

More creative and kind than the current idea of God in every sense of the word. o3o

He's like the Grandfather everyone wishes they had! o3o

It's Marvel 616 (their main universe) that Stan Lee actually sort of is God, or at least his right hand.

In one of the Fantastic Four comics (possibly number 400, although I could be wrong) they all end up in a form of heaven which is pretty much Stan Lee and Jack Kirby (I think... it's been years since I read the comic) just chilling in a cottage. Stan has a gift from the "man upstairs" for the Fantastic 4... an image of them all as old men/women with a quote along the lines of "It'll be all right in the end" at the bottom.

One of the sweetest comics I can remember.

Also on the religion/comics side of things there's a buckload of Christian/Jesus subtext with Superman that some writers lay on with a spade, others are subtle about and some ignore all together. One of the last big DC events had a load of Judo-Christian and comics mythos mixed in together.

And the last big Marvel event had Thor killing the Wrath of God with a lightning bolt...

[HairyHeretic]

And the last big Marvel event had Thor killing the Wrath of God with a lightning bolt...

Say what now? :)

[consortium11]

Say what now? :)

*Is risking going incredibly off-topic*

During the run up and duration to Siege they "revealed" that The Sentry/Void (who has a convoluted enough back story without all this...) was actually the Biblical Wrath of God. Siege itself more or less consisted of Sentry owning everyone (notably ripping Ares in half and tearing down Asgard) until pretty much every single Marvel hero went up against him (+ some villains). He turns into the Void, kills Loki, Iron Man crashes the Shield Helicarrier into him, Thor beats him up a bit, the Void depowers, asks Thor to kill him, starts to power up again and Thor kills him with a lightning bolt. It's simpler than I've made it sound.

In terms of big event comics it was actually one of the better ones overall.

[Inkidu]

As an Athiest, I think we can all agree that we officially give up on Kansas. o3o

But, but how will the rest of the world check to see if their levels are true if we give up on Kansas! D:

[Wolfy]

As far as I know, Kansas has legalized teaching Creationism in Science Class. (or so I've heard)

It's time to give up trying to argue with them, and just let it go. D:

Next is Texas, which has legalized making changes to history books to make it sound more....I guess Conservative?..Or republican...is there a difference? O-o

Such as changing Americans bringing slaves from Africa to "The East Atlantic Triangular Trade" or some other such nonsense. >_>

Funny thing is, Texas doesn't have the funding to get their new text books to the schools. LOL

[Serephino]

Nah, we shouldn't give up on Kansas completely.  There may still be a few people who haven't lost their minds yet.  What I personally would like to see is other Christians publicly condemning this kind of behavior.  It's making y'all look really bad.  I feel the same about Republicans and their growing number of nutjobs.  It seems like the crazy people are running things because the sane ones are too timid/afraid or something to tell them to shut the fuck up and go crawl back under their rock. 

[Oniya]

Such as changing Americans bringing slaves from Africa to "The East Atlantic Triangular Trade" or some other such nonsense. >_>

Actually, the 'Triangle Trade' is a more accurate description of it, and it doesn't really cover up the fact that one of the articles traded was African men and women.  The molasses from the Caribbean was used to make rum in New England, which was traded for slaves in Africa, which were brought back to the plantations.  Also, raw materials from those plantations were turned into finished goods in New England, and then traded on those same ships.

As John Rutledge said in the musical 1776:  "Hail Boston, Hail Charleston, who stinketh the most?"

[Lord Drake]

Nah, we shouldn't give up on Kansas completely.  There may still be a few people who haven't lost their minds yet.  What I personally would like to see is other Christians publicly condemning this kind of behavior.  It's making y'all look really bad.  I feel the same about Republicans and their growing number of nutjobs.  It seems like the crazy people are running things because the sane ones are too timid/afraid or something to tell them to shut the fuck up and go crawl back under their rock. 

If you want to see ME publicly condemning them please tell me whaere I must sign up.

<----- Is ready

About the bigger churches... I am not sure they are worth it. There are other things that I would personally like my church to do before wasting time on those losers.

[Brandon]

For a holy all knowing book of the all perfect god that is not nessersarily all that perfect full of contradiction etc. Athiests often bring such things with those that do claim that everything in the bible is true. That god told the writers what to write etc. You will find almost all Athiests don't give a damn about what people choose to believe, however I seriously doubt that it is "uncalled for" for us to point out holes in your claims when you make them.

The biggest group that Atheists tend to "fight" against are creationists, normally because they so dogmatically believe that the world is 6,000 years old, world wide flood, and that the dinosuar fossils were put there to test our faith etc.

Now Anti-thiests are a entirely different kettle of fish. They continue to make the same asserted claims that the religious do and most Athiests have nothing to do with them or outright go against them as well.

Besides, you make it sound like as if people are unjustified at picking out the holes in the bible. When you say christian that is a massive umbrella term that only has one connecting factor. The religious book in which christianity derives from.

The bible quote argument isnt anti-atheist at all. Its anti-debate/discussion and before you claim that you dont use it you need to look back through some past threads again because I can cite at least 2 sources in seperate threads that support it happens here on Elliquiy. Furthermore I would argue that, like sexual orientation and race, faith isnt a choice at all. Its an individual truth thats molded over a persons lifetime, like sexuality it can be fluid but it can also be like a stone statue, forever shaped into one form and never changing until it is destroyed.

Now if you're talking specifically about the bible then yes I think its fine to "poke holes" in a persons point of view if you have a counter point of view backed up by that text. However discussions outside the bible, koran, or Kama sutra (yes thats a religious text for hindu's) are a different matter. What I dont think you or others understand is that while these books influence what shape religion has taken now and will in the future, they are not, nor have they ever been the sole means of how a religion determines what it does, stands for, or stands against.

As were getting off topic, Ill leave it there and change it up a bit

One thing I dont understand about these nutjobs is if theyre so disatisfied with the country then why dont they immigrate somewhere else? Its clear that they think that homosexuality, amoung other things, are sins that cant be forgiven. So why speak out against it at all? If it cant be forgiven then protests seem useless to me. I dunno, on general I have a hard time understanding Christians (not including catholics) as is but these guys just baffle me

[Lord Drake]

One thing I dont understand about these nutjobs is if theyre so disatisfied with the country then why dont they immigrate somewhere else? Its clear that they think that homosexuality, amoung other things, are sins that cant be forgiven. So why speak out against it at all? If it cant be forgiven then protests seem useless to me. I dunno, on general I have a hard time understanding Christians (not including catholics) as is but these guys just baffle me

In this particular case I keep putting my money on the fact that they do it mainly for the press.

[Wolfy]

Well Brandon, it seems to be that Christians, nutjobs or no, want to 'save everyone they can', or at least that's what I understand.

Soo..perhaps that's why they don't leave?

Or it could be that America is the only place they won't get shot for doing this sh*t. o3o The only place where the law can't legally touch them, because all they are doing is using words rather than violence. I think in any other country they'd be locked away very quickly.

[Brandon]

Well Brandon, it seems to be that Christians, nutjobs or no, want to 'save everyone they can', or at least that's what I understand.

Soo..perhaps that's why they don't leave?

No I dont think thats it wolfy, they clearly believe that confession isnt enough to wipe sins away. Think back to that pokemon = witchcraft thread. We saw the same thing. "You cant go to heaven!" was a common theme.

Now in catholosism (Im not sure if this is true for christianity but I think they believe the same thing) once we die we are given the chance to confess our sins before god. If were honest, open, and truly sorry for them they will be forgiven and we can enter heaven. Confessions in front of a priest also allow our sins to be forgiven.

Its clear in both cases of the baptist church and the church in that pokemon = witchcraft video that confession to a priest or before god isnt enough to save your soul. This leads me to 2 conclusions. 1) They are not properly following what the christian faith teaches (which happens often) and 2) They actually believe the bull they are spouting. In this case the act of protesting is meaningless. If a person is already condemned then the idea of "theyre trying to save others" is redundant

Or it could be that America is the only place they won't get shot for doing this sh*t. o3o The only place where the law can't legally touch them, because all they are doing is using words rather than violence. I think in any other country they'd be locked away very quickly.

I would agree with you here but I find focusing more on theological aspects would give us better insight into their minds as well as give us better intellectual arguments to give in response. Its sort of a fight fire with fire idea, if that makes any sense

[HairyHeretic]

Unfortunately that isn't going to work, in my experience. If someone is that convinced by what their faith tells them, you're almost never going to get through to them. On another forum I'm on, there is one particular poster who has come out with some (to him) perfectly reasonable and rational ideas that sound insane to me.

For example, his God is good, therefore anything he does must be good, since God is good and by definition cannot be bad. So, all the smiting, blowing up of cities, attempting to kill every living creature on the Earth .. all good.

I blow up a city, I'm a mass murdering sociopathic maniac. His God does it, it's good.

How exactly do you argue with someone like that?

[Wolfy]

Well..if God killed his family(Family including: Mother, father, sister, brother, Aunt, uncle, and everyone he knows on more than an acquaintance level) and mangled his body in such a way that he was left conscious and alive but in severe pain for several years, if not the rest of his life, would he still consider it "Good"?

[Brandon]

I would argue that it may have been good for the time (remember its easy to apply our morale compass to a culture that is entirely different) but isnt in todays age. In the past man was still young, exploring the earth and living lives of pure chaos. Today we seem to live lives of pure law (which is just as bad IMO). Another thing that I think is a central theme in every religion is that god will not interfere with free will. He (or she if you believe in a female ones or a pantheon like the norse) will often go out of his way to corrent things through events and his angels but he will never enslave a persons mind. Thats just a theory mind you, I think its a pointless argument

Anyway that central theme is good IMO. To let man make his own choices whatever they may be but also not be afraid to clean up the mess later for the sake of his other children. Now before anyone argues that a religious person could use that to do anything I should point out that God is considered to be at least a supernatural being and at best an omnipetant being, not a human. Think about it for a minute, were talking about a being whos age, experience, and thoughts are on a completely different level from our own. What would your mind be like if you lived 1000 years? 10,000 years? 1,000,000 years? Yet this is a being that has never not existed. On a plantary or galactic scale an epoch is a blink of an eye, for a being thats as old as time a planets life is a blink of an eye.

As is, I think to many people get caught up in trying to understand god when that very act is beyond our comprehension. I hope that makes sense

[HairyHeretic]

Well..if God killed his family(Family including: Mother, father, sister, brother, Aunt, uncle, and everyone he knows on more than an acquaintance level) and mangled his body in such a way that he was left conscious and alive but in severe pain for several years, if not the rest of his life, would he still consider it "Good"?

Odd as this may sound, I think he might.

He has also put forward the idea that since God made everyone and everything, he has a perfect right do whatever he wants with them. And by his earlier rational, those actions can only be good.

I honestly can't fathom that mindset.

[Wolfy]

So..he's of the mindset that God can do anything he wants?

Did you try the old "Can God Make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?" Paradox? o-o

[HairyHeretic]

I think that one got the response of not putting God to the test. I tend to ignore the guy now.

It's better for my sanity  :P

[HairyHeretic]

I would argue that it may have been good for the time (remember its easy to apply our morale compass to a culture that is entirely different) but isnt in todays age. In the past man was still young, exploring the earth and living lives of pure chaos. Today we seem to live lives of pure law (which is just as bad IMO). Another thing that I think is a central theme in every religion is that god will not interfere with free will. He (or she if you believe in a female ones or a pantheon like the norse) will often go out of his way to corrent things through events and his angels but he will never enslave a persons mind. Thats just a theory mind you, I think its a pointless argument

As a follower of the just mentioned Norse pantheon, I'd say not quite. Explaining Norse belief and cosmology would seriously derail this thread, but I'll be happy to give my own personal thoughts on it elsewhere, if people are interested.

As is, I think to many people get caught up in trying to understand god when that very act is beyond our comprehension. I hope that makes sense

Maybe so, but we were given minds for a reason. I'd like to think part of that reason is to question, to explore, to discover and to seek to understand.

[Wolfy]

Mankind got where it is today by being inventive and seeking to challenge itself...

o-o..Religion seems to give us an easy answer to everything, rather than facing the tough questions on our own.

Or that's my thoughts on the matter, anyway.

[Brandon]

I would say yes he can. Agian think about it, omnipotent being with an existance beyond human understanding and not a human. If he wants to make a rock heavier then he can lift it he can, and then later on if he wants to make it so he can lift it then he can either make himself stronger or make the rock lighter

Religion from my point of view, demands you ask more questions then atheism does. For atheists, sceince is the one and only answer and for specific atheist religions like scientology and buddism they already have their beliefs. I mentioned before that faith and by extension religion is not a choice, a person can be brought up in a religion by tradition but once they become an adult if they believe they continue to follow it, if they dont believe they go looking for something else or form their own beliefs. This is a questioning process, to find something that makes sense to the individual. Catholisism in particular has always encouraged me to ask questions and find my own answers either within the church or out in the world. Unlike what many people think, Ive never been forced to believe something or to accept an answer that didnt answer my questions but I have been told many times that if I dont like the answer to a question I should find my own answer

I partly agree with you hairy but I think there are mysteries of the universe that can never really be solved because they are beyond our understanding

[Wolfy]

There is nothing beyond our understanding, given enough time and Ingenuity. o3o We used to not know how birds flew in the sky, or why the ground shook sometimes, or what that hot red stuff coming from the mountain like blood was.

o3o