WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[wander]

I've been considering Deep Strike, at least for when I go to higher point games. Atm I have Nurgle Bikes for Fast Attack, because going against S5 pulse weapons isn't fun at all.

I figure grabbing 3 flamers and a melta makes the most sense. I already have 2x autocannons in the Havoc squad, to make them fairly shooty though not a clear massive target to be wiped out first. Also I wanted some special weapons in my other squads (2x CSM squads and a bike squad).

I realised that getting an early charge in even at Overwatch being blasted at 6+ is better than getting marker-lighted and dealing with that.

I'm pondering on options like a Nurgle Daemon Allied Detachment, or adding in a Terminator squad when bumped to 750 or 1000pt games. I know I'd like to add some Chaos Spawn in to act as ablative wounds for my Biker HQ. Though by then I may go and just grab a Daemon Prince depending.

[CopperLily]

Heyyyyyy A 40k thread, this is my shit.

I personally don't like Unbound because it takes away a big part of the game and the competitive aspect. It's not easy to make a good list that works well for the points you're given if you have certain limitations. The limitations are there for a reason, to add that extra challenge. Oh you're a deathwatch player, well if you want Drop Pods for your kill teams you have to take a CAD in your list too, so that you can fit it in nicely. That extra aspect is important to me.

In contrast, I like Unbound because you can already make some abusive as hell armies and have them be Battle Forged, but I've seen the occasional neat Unbound army and don't feel like tossing out the baby along with the bathwater.

Anyone whose going to abuse army construction, in my mind, is going to abuse it regardless of the comp system in place.

[CopperLily]

Wander, how do you feel about plasma? Better range, almost as effective as killing battlesuits, though you do have overheating to worry about.

Keep in mind that the drop to S7 for Plasma also means you don't double-out battlesuits, which is a big thing.

[wander]

I'm considering for the 3 bikers to add in 2 flamers, shorter range though they get upfield quicker and cause massive damage if the models are cooped up nested as Tau tend to...

Seem cool or should I just give them one special weapon? Like I can give them one flamer or melta instead and have the added range of those bolters.

[VonHellsing]

Awwww yeah, Warhammer. Time to nerd out for a bit.

Keeping on topic a bit, I never really cared for Unbound. Sure you could spam Riptides or Heldrakes, but you lose out on Objective Secured and certain other benefits. And with all the new Decurian-esque detachments recently with absurdly powerful special rules, Unbound is starting to become less and less viable unless you're spamming fliers.

Orks were my main army for a while; I mostly ran Ork Horde detachments with lots of Boyz and Meganobz. Sadly they now sit around in pieces and collecting dust since I moved to college and all, and I've sold some other parts of it. They're fun as hell to play, but getting your ass kicked is not an uncommon occurrence, especially if the only players your know play Tau and Ultramarines.

I now have Genestealers and some Space Marines to have a Kill Teams, but I haven't used them in a while. I'm undecided as to what to paint my Space Marines, maybe Salamanders or Raptors.

[greenknight]

I'm undecided as to what to paint my Space Marines,

Whatever you want, whatever scheme fits your fancy. Mine wear camouflage, their only markings are subdued versions of the Rogue Trader rank insignia. (Camouflage, BTW, is also endorsed by Rogue Trader.)

Then define them as a successor to whatever chapter you want and use those chapter tactics. You want fire, they're Salamanders. You want jumpy guys, hellsmurfs or space vampires. I usually play mine as The Hidden Fist, an Imperial Fists successor, or maybe as an unaligned, no daemon support CSM force list representing, again, a Rogue Trader-esque mercenary force.

And by Rogue Trader, I, of course, mean the first edition of the WH40K rules, a gloriously satirical parody of grimdark where your forces' specific loadouts were more or less randomly determined.

[VonHellsing]

Whatever you want, whatever scheme fits your fancy. Mine wear camouflage, their only markings are subdued versions of the Rogue Trader rank insignia. (Camouflage, BTW, is also endorsed by Rogue Trader.)

Then define them as a successor to whatever chapter you want and use those chapter tactics. You want fire, they're Salamanders. You want jumpy guys, hellsmurfs or space vampires. I usually play mine as The Hidden Fist, an Imperial Fists successor, or maybe as an unaligned, no daemon support CSM force list representing, again, a Rogue Trader-esque mercenary force.

And by Rogue Trader, I, of course, mean the first edition of the WH40K rules, a gloriously satirical parody of grimdark where your forces' specific loadouts were more or less randomly determined.

I absolutely adore the Rogue Trader idea. That's one of the reasons I really, really want to get my hands on some Heresy-era Space Marines from Forge World, if I ever get enough cash to throw around. I'm on the fringe if I would ever go the whole 9 yards and make an actual 30K army.

See, I wouldn't mind making my own Chapter/CSM warband, but the fluff and story behind most established Chapters is so damn cool that it would make any background for my guys look woefully inadequate. Not to mention there's the trap of "this is my super special OC, pls no steal" that I've seen people fall into, where they're either Mary Sues or super gritty edgelords. That being said, however, I've had a couple ideas toiling in my head for a White Scars/Thousand Sons chimeric Chapter since both Legions were on good terms before the Heresy, and a Sisters of Battle Order that embraces a more Shaolin Buddhist mentality and culture.

Overall, I'd say my favorite Chapters are Salamanders, Black Templars, Carcharadons, Raptors, and the Minotaurs. An honorary mention for a fanmade Flesh Tearers successor called the Blood Jaguars from /tg/.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Blood_Jaguars

[TheGlyphstone]

Angry Marines 4 Lyfe, yo.

[HairyHeretic]

I absolutely adore the Rogue Trader idea. That's one of the reasons I really, really want to get my hands on some Heresy-era Space Marines from Forge World, if I ever get enough cash to throw around. I'm on the fringe if I would ever go the whole 9 yards and make an actual 30K army.

Betrayl at Calth and Burning of Prospero sets both contain enough Heresy era armour marks that they'd easily form the basis of a 30k army, and those models are also available (or coming) in standard GW squad box sets.

See, I wouldn't mind making my own Chapter/CSM warband, but the fluff and story behind most established Chapters is so damn cool that it would make any background for my guys look woefully inadequate. Not to mention there's the trap of "this is my super special OC, pls no steal" that I've seen people fall into, where they're either Mary Sues or super gritty edgelords. That being said, however, I've had a couple ideas toiling in my head for a White Scars/Thousand Sons chimeric Chapter since both Legions were on good terms before the Heresy, and a Sisters of Battle Order that embraces a more Shaolin Buddhist mentality and culture.

Overall, I'd say my favorite Chapters are Salamanders, Black Templars, Carcharadons, Raptors, and the Minotaurs. An honorary mention for a fanmade Flesh Tearers successor called the Blood Jaguars from /tg/.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Blood_Jaguars

Well, CSM warbands are maybe a bit easier to work off, as you can have Loyalists turning renegade / traitor, or have them come from the Traitor Legions. Have them from Traitor Legions that remained loyal during the Heresy, and changed their livery after. There were split loyalties amongst all the Legions, with the possible exception of the Word Bearers who purged anyone 'unrelibale' before the Heresy started.

There's lots of options out there.

[wander]

I call my Death Guards the 'Derp Guard', mainly as I've built them to look as derpy and hug-seeking as possible for CSM models, given the fluff of Nurgle daemons being super friendly and jovial. ^__^

My flamer doods look like they're playing them as electric guitars, which was an accident, but looks pretty damn cool!  :D

Anyways, paintscheme wise, my doods are going to be undercoating with Steel Legion Drab to prime them (as I was recommended by Warhammer Community to go brown with undercoating Nurgle models ^^). Then as they're Death Guard I'm using Stracken Green as their main base colour. I have things like Leadbelcher, Screaming Bell, Typhus Corrosion and Ryza Rust to make their trim, backpacks and guns look a right mess, as befitting for Nurgle. I'm also going to paint the three dots of Nurgle on their blank pauldrons in Typhus Corrosion as 'Marks of Nurgle'. I think then their helmet eyes are going to be Screaming Bell for a bronzey metallic shade to them.

Undecided in how heavy to go Agrax Earthshade on them. I guess when I get to actually painting I'll figure it out. I want them to look dirty though they still should look pale enough to be clearly Death Guard Legionnaires.

[VonHellsing]

I call my Death Guards the 'Derp Guard', mainly as I've built them to look as derpy and hug-seeking as possible for CSM models, given the fluff of Nurgle daemons being super friendly and jovial. ^__^

My flamer doods look like they're playing them as electric guitars, which was an accident, but looks pretty damn cool!  :D

Anyways, paintscheme wise, my doods are going to be undercoating with Steel Legion Drab to prime them (as I was recommended by Warhammer Community to go brown with undercoating Nurgle models ^^). Then as they're Death Guard I'm using Stracken Green as their main base colour. I have things like Leadbelcher, Screaming Bell, Typhus Corrosion and Ryza Rust to make their trim, backpacks and guns look a right mess, as befitting for Nurgle. I'm also going to paint the three dots of Nurgle on their blank pauldrons in Typhus Corrosion as 'Marks of Nurgle'. I think then their helmet eyes are going to be Screaming Bell for a bronzey metallic shade to them.

Undecided in how heavy to go Agrax Earthshade on them. I guess when I get to actually painting I'll figure it out. I want them to look dirty though they still should look pale enough to be clearly Death Guard Legionnaires.

Sounds fun! But as fun as Death Guard are to paint and as powerful as they are in-game, I could just never get behind their fluff. Don't get me wrong; their role as foot-slogging hardasses with a knack for chemical warfare and their fall to Nurgle is really interesting... but everything else isn't as much. Doesn't help that Mortarion's only character traits are being moody, hating psykers, and constantly bitching at his other brother Primarchs.

[greenknight]

Sounds fun! But as fun as Death Guard are to paint and as powerful as they are in-game, I could just never get behind their fluff. Don't get me wrong; their role as foot-slogging hardasses with a knack for chemical warfare and their fall to Nurgle is really interesting... but everything else isn't as much. Doesn't help that Mortarion's only character traits are being moody, hating psykers, and constantly bitching at his other brother Primarchs.

Sounds like this would be the fight song if you play them.

[wander]

Sounds like this would be the fight song if you play them.

That'd be more a Thousand Sons Legion song methinks, though still... Awesome track! ^^

I know when I had a Skitarii Kill Team, their anthem was this;

spoilered to keep page loading decently ^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvTqknDobU

[HairyHeretic]

https://youtu.be/3A3G6JcLn24

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-your-questions-answered/

New addition this year, existing codexes won't be usable. Definite AoS elements in the FAQs

[greenknight]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000-your-questions-answered/

New addition this year, existing codexes won't be usable. Definite AoS elements in the FAQs

Total system reset? Will the new core book have "full" army lists like the 3rd edition?

[HairyHeretic]

It sounds like they're making a number of changes, such as a movement value and armour save modifiers coming back. They've said they older codexes won't be usable with the new edition, but that the basic rules will be free and there will be three different ways to play.

They might be taking a similar approach to AoS in how they're putting out army lists, but I don't know for sure.

[VonHellsing]

It sounds like they're making a number of changes, such as a movement value and armour save modifiers coming back. They've said they older codexes won't be usable with the new edition, but that the basic rules will be free and there will be three different ways to play.

They might be taking a similar approach to AoS in how they're putting out army lists, but I don't know for sure.

The community always responds positively to free stuff, so free rules and maybe specific army rules will be a given. I'm more afraid they'll jack up model prices to compensate, but I doubt they'll really go that far, considering it looks as if they've actually been (to an extent) paying attention to community feedback post-AoS backlash.

I can't really say ruleswise what I want to change or what I'm looking forward to. I just hope movement value is properly balanced and doesn't cripple some units or even entire armies.

Personally, I really hope Orks and Tyranids return to their old glory. For such menaces in the fluff, they've really been undercut and underpowered since the inception of 7th Edition, at least when compared to Eldar, Space Marines, and the recent CSM updates. Grange they're fun to play sometimes, especially Orks, but losing is certainly not an uncommon occurance.

[HairyHeretic]

I've been playing since Rogue Trader days, so starting off when everyone had their own movement value. It meant things like eldar and Nids could be faster than a baseline human, as you would expect, and Orks might potentially be slower (except when they Waargh).

A fair large change in the basic rules means they can do a clean slate on all the armies now, and I'd like to hope they'll have at least basic stuff available for all factions on day 1, if the old codexes are no longer valid. They'd pretty much have to, I think.

[wander]

*nods* It also seems like a summer release as rumoured seems likely... Geedubs have stated the current codexes will be coming off the shelves very soon, so now is the time to pick them up if you want 7th edition lists.

I don't think many things are really changing outside of the stated movement rates and the swap back from AP to armour penalties like in prior editions. There may be the return of damage ratings also for weapons. There's murmers of ammo rolls also. I do think seeing what the reaction to Shadow War is pushing 8th edition forward.

I see a similar initial push like AoS happening; a free pdf of the most basic rules (the main rulebook is supposed to be sold seperately and will not be free), then seperate pdfs of the main forces for models currently in-stock.

There's rumblings of them continually adapting the game AoS style too, so there will be likely be apps for the game like AoS has.

Lastly;
I didn't see Mechanicum or Skitaari mentioned in the factions of the Imperial side, I don't see them squatted as supposedly every model currently for sale will be supported by the new rules, plus the Rangers are in Shadow War, but possibly a future squatting, ala Bretonnians/Tomb Kings?

I just want the Tau nerfed... In Shadow War they have S5 basic weapons and an armour penalty of -2. Fair enough they have BS3 and no pluses to hit, though they have drones and shit to help them. All in all, still 3+ to wound speehs mereeens (and 2+ anyone with T3 which is practically everyone else) and reducing a power armour armour save to 5+... Plus they're cheap as chips, it's damn filthy.  -_-

[greenknight]

FWIW, in pre-3e days, bolters were net -2 to armor, excuse me, armour saves, too; -1 for S4 and an additional -1 as a specific weapon quality.

As for ammo rolls, I'm not especially fond of that. It's probably too crunchy for the style of play 40k and FoW go for. In a game like Hammer's Slammers or Infinity, I could see it, maybe even Void with its attempt to give 40k more granularity. Necromunda, too, with its focus (like Infinity) on individual skirmishers rather than squads. But otherwise, how do you build the rule into the system? Does a whole squad run out at once? Does a special/heavy weapon run dry and then what else does the gunner have? Combi-weapons and HKs work with their one shot system, otherwise, I don't see the utility.

[CopperLily]

FWIW, in pre-3e days, bolters were net -2 to armor, excuse me, armour saves, too; -1 for S4 and an additional -1 as a specific weapon quality.

As for ammo rolls, I'm not especially fond of that. It's probably too crunchy for the style of play 40k and FoW go for. In a game like Hammer's Slammers or Infinity, I could see it, maybe even Void with its attempt to give 40k more granularity. Necromunda, too, with its focus (like Infinity) on individual skirmishers rather than squads. But otherwise, how do you build the rule into the system? Does a whole squad run out at once? Does a special/heavy weapon run dry and then what else does the gunner have? Combi-weapons and HKs work with their one shot system, otherwise, I don't see the utility.

Forge World came up with workable "Constrained supply" rules for...HH: Extermination IIRC.

[HairyHeretic]

There's ammo rolls in SW:A, but I can't see them doing that in regular 40k games. Possibly an optional rule for a themed scenario type game though.

[wander]

I'm pondering if the new army lists will be free pdfs detailing current models as AoS had done, or if they'll go the route of only including the current army lists in the priced rulebook, having the free rules pdf seperate.

I'm honestly not too concerned, it'll probably be some time before I get involved with 8th edition. I kinda have a bad taste in my mouth over this, as I got back into things around the time of the Genestealer Cult and Mechanicum codex releases, they're only a handful of months old and now already marked as soon to be obsolete...

I also don't really see the new rules creating more of a balance, if anything it's going to make things a lot more cheesy. I'd like to see more of a balance of cost between Toughness and Strength. So far in 7th edition few armies are over T3 and it costs far more points to put up defence than it does to grab high Str weapons. Now armour penalties are coming back and unless point costs change to reflect that, balance is even more out of the window. The costs of weapons and kill team members in Shadow War has not eased my worry on that.

[HairyHeretic]

If they're giving the base rules free, I think they'll have to do the same for army lists too. It may be they're adopting the AoS format, I don't know. I'll wait and see what the new rules bring. At worst, they don't interest me, and my stuff goes back on the shelf. Not that I get much 40k playing in anyway. In that regard, the Kill Team sized stuff of SW:A actually suits me quite nicely.

[wander]

Plus, it's not like Geedubs are gonna go round people's homes and burn their 7th edition rulebooks and codexes, so the models you own can still be continued to be played as you already are.

Apparently current armies will still be usable with 8th edition too, so unless they start squatting models and shifting their datafiles about, current armies will still be playable.

I'd be interested to see new factions come in. If for example Slaanesh gets quietly put to rest with the arrival of the Ynarri, will be get the Hrud as a replacement, given the Horned Rat being the new 4th Chaos God in AoS? And how would adding Space-Skaven affect the Skitaari, who have the irradiated flintlock runner schtick of the Skaven down-pat?