rude 'n' ridiculous rants + polite but painfully-slow prattle with passers-by

[FireflyWhisper]

increases my level of despondency and depression

And I've never been happier, and I wouldn't trade my life for anyone's or for anything, because I believe the one and only truth.

I've always wondered why those who believe strongly in religion often don't seem that happy.  You say you've never been happier, but you also say you suffer from depression.  If one accepts Christianity, it seems like there shouldn't be much to be unhappy about, as long as you are doing your best to fulfill your part of the bargain.  God's will shall be done.  Eternal reward in heaven awaits.  Yes, people are imperfect, we'll agree on that.  But, I suggest that a belief system that promises everything and still leaves so many unfulfilled suggests that there is a problem with the belief system itself.

Disclosure:  I believe religion is at best a band-aid for human fear and insecurity about death and the after-life.  At worst, it is a system of  indoctrination that borders on child abuse and does wide-ranging harm to mankind.  However, I'm not going to argue against those beyond the age of reason being taught about religion because I believe we should all have the freedom to believe in whatever we want.

So, if you really are as happy as you could possibly be with your religion, I'd have to say great!  I'm glad it is making you happy.  But, I think it is possible to be very happy without religion as well.  Strangely enough, I imagine happy for both of us involves many of the same things.  I can't imagine being really happy without feeling like I was a positive influence on the world as a whole.  I believe in being good to people, fostering positivity and respect, giving to those who are in need, spreading love and friendship and a sense of being together and not alone in this thing called life.  Religion won't make me happier in those pursuits, because in my heart I don't believe in the 'story' of any religion, even if I enjoy select portions of them in the abstract.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

I've always wondered why those who believe strongly in religion often don't seem that happy.  You say you've never been happier, but you also say you suffer from depression.  If one accepts Christianity, it seems like there shouldn't be much to be unhappy about, as long as you are doing your best to fulfill your part of the bargain....

"Depression and unhappiness are not the same thing... People are ingrained with that belief, and it's extremely false. Depression tends to cause unhappiness, but it is not unhappiness in and of itself. Depression is an empty, hollow feeling, a desire to do nothing and feel nothing, and it gives way to more and more of itself when you get trapped by it. Unhappiness usually follows, but one can be distracted from the unhappiness caused by depression, without ridding themselves completely of depression. Again, usually, if one can actually find happiness, they chip away and wash away the depression, but in the end, you're still looking at a different beast."

"This is poorly conveyed by society (big surprise) and so people assert that depression is just some long, angsty stage of sadness. Being bipolar, even in my happiest states, sometimes I'll simply become depressed for even a stupid reason. Once you hit that downward slope, it's hard to stop sliding. Alcohol is a depressant, so it stands to reason this would have a similar effect on someone prone to depression."

So, if you really are as happy as you could possibly be with your religion, I'd have to say great!  I'm glad it is making you happy.  But, I think it is possible to be very happy without religion as well.  Strangely enough, I imagine happy for both of us involves many of the same things.  I can't imagine being really happy without feeling like I was a positive influence on the world as a whole.  I believe in being good to people, fostering positivity and respect, giving to those who are in need, spreading love and friendship and a sense of being together and not alone in this thing called life.  Religion won't make me happier in those pursuits, because in my heart I don't believe in the 'story' of any religion, even if I enjoy select portions of them in the abstract.

"I'd argue the same of your beliefs, and not even in support of religion. Your beliefs are likely bestowed onto you by social norms, which decree some acts (which can be as damaging as they are kind) to be virtuous. You describe the concept of charity, being 'good', and being a 'positive influence', usually hallmarks of superficial 'goodness'. I'm not defending religion here, only stating that you seem to have a very 'above-it-all' sense of how atheism, or possibly agnosticism, is somehow more noble. Yet I imagine your concepts of charity and kindness are rooted in traditions that are simply different, not wiser or more valid."

"I apologize for stepping in to speak up in rick's blog to someone that isn't rick, but I felt that, if nothing else, my first point was important and poignant."

[Oreo]

I have to agree with your perception of depression, Ryuka. It has nothing to do with my happiness. They are two separate things. I feel blessed in so many ways, yet am still beset with bouts of depression. Most of the time it is due to illness. Religion gives me the strength or purpose to fight through it. Things could be so much worse than they are. In the end, it is my belief system that pulls me out of that dark place.

For others it might be something else that brings them back into the light. Either way, depression is a medical-mental state. Unhappiness is a dissatisfaction with life. You can be the life of the party, a smile on your face, and inside be completely unhappy and alone.

[FireflyWhisper]

RE: Depression vs. Unhappiness - In terms of the point I was making, I don't think there is a difference.  I don't believe anyone is going around saying being depressed or unhappy is a good thing.  So why are people who believe they have found the true way in God and are following it to the best of their ability still depressed and/or unhappy?

Unrelated to that point, I do think in rare circumstances there is a genuine medical condition causing imbalances in the brain.  But, I think most of the time 'depression' is instead a very serious onset of unhappiness.  From my understanding of clinical depression, it is often identified as not changing even when situations and environment change, unlike normal unhappiness.  I would contend that people aren't able to truly get away from their environment in terms of the hegemony of culture that pervades our modern world.  How can you 'get away' if where you go is basically the same as where you were before when you were unhappy?

RE: Good and Atheists, etc - 'Good' is a very subjective term, of course.  I don't see atheists and/or agnostics as being inherently more likely to be 'good'.  They do seem less likely to try to impose their rules on what I choose to do.  Also, less likely to hurt or kill others based on religious beliefs.

No comments on waiting until the age of reason before teaching religion or lack thereof?  What's wrong with letting people come to their own decisions?  If God is the answer, won't they find their way there on their own?

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"Again, depressed and unhappy are not interchangeable. Depression is an affliction, not a state of mind. It probably possible to feel lethargic and empty without being depressed, but that doesn't equate to depression. If you're going to ask 'why do people who feel fulfilled by religion remain depressed', you would have to ask why they still the flu or allergies. Even if you can fight it (which I do), it doesn't change the fact that it creeps up on you. In no way did rick say he couldn't stop being depressed if he got depressed, only that he didn't want to become depressed in the first place."

"As for the second thing, I feel you missed my point, and I don't really care to reiterate it. I made it as much as I wanted to make it, and only because I was already posting due to the depression topic. To the idea of 'age of reason', the only thing I have to say is that 'age' is a misused term. For some people, the 'age of reason' is 8 or 12 or 16, and for others, it's never, at least by my reckoning."

[rick957]

Just popping in briefly at this moment to say a giant "thanks" to everybody who's been posting here or PMing me -- it's just the kind of thing I hope can happen in this blog, people talking about interesting things that have been discussed here before.  I'm reading every word and will respond as soon as possible.  It's a pleasure and honor to hear from each of you, including those who have commented politely but frankly about disagreements with things I've said; that's wonderful meaty stuff!  I love polite exchanges of differing ideas, and I don't expect or even want my personal perspective to be the only one aired in this blog.  The more the merrier, IMO. 

Back again before long with more detailed comments.  :)

[rick957]

Reader Replyishness, Take Seventeen

Okay, so it's probably not a great idea for me to try replying to every comment that gets made in this blog, because I'm currently replying to a comment from 2 1/2 weeks ago, which means the person is probably either long gone or doesn't remember her comment or doesn't care about getting a reply any more.  On the other hand, having a backlog of comments is kind of new for me.  Hell, having more than one reader is kind of new for me.  ;)  Well it seems that way anyway.

Meh, I'm just gonna keep going for now.  I'll catch up someday!



@ Branwen

Hi Branwen!  Branwen is one of my RP partners at the moment, and she commented here a long time ago, but I'm just now replying to that.

I come to Elliquiy primarily to do adult RPs, not to blog, although it may seem otherwise considering how much I blab in this thread.  :)  Here's a confession:  it makes me nervous to be doing adult RPs at the same site where I do this blog, although I knew that would happen from the start and just decided to go ahead anyway with the blog.  What makes me nervous about it?  Well for one thing, this blog is jam-packed with me talking about Christianity, and not only are my Christian beliefs quite literally and knowingly offensive to many people, but on top of that, there's something a bit less than sexy about talking about Christianity.  I know it.  Christianity is associated with sexual repressiveness and has been for a very long time.  It takes an unusually open mind to be a Christian and admit to having ordinary sexual urges.  I have yet to find a group of Christians anywhere on the planet who believe what I do about Christianity and also believe what I do about sexuality.  I'm not even sure any such people exist.  Anyway I worry that anyone who finds out about my beliefs from this blog will never ever want to talk to me again, much less RP with me, and much much less RP with me about S-E-X.  Who wants to talk kinky with religious people?  Oh, nobody, I guess.  Or maybe everyone around here is more open-minded than me, I don't know.  More broadly speaking, I'll bet there are things in this blog about my life and my opinions that have nothing to do with Christianity but could still easily bug someone enough to not want to RP with me, and since I come to E mostly to do the RPing, I fret that this blog will make it harder for me to RP.

So far it's entirely a theoretical concern and not something that has actually caused a real problem, but (heh) most of my concerns and worries in life are like that -- theoretical shit inside my head.  It might turn into even more of a concern because I've been thinking about tying one or more of my RPs into this blog in an experimental way, but that won't happen for a while and will require the cooperation of my RP partners, so it may not happen at all, we'll see.

Anyway, woo!  one of my RP partners saw this blog at least once and hasn't stopped RPing with me (yet!), so that's a relief, frankly.  :)

All them nifty pictures in your post here, Branwen, makes it probably the nicest-looking post in this blog so far.  Gotta love that.  I likes pictures but I seldom put them in this blog, mostly because I'm too busy doing other stuff like writing.

... ... The takeaway here is this:  light is made up of many colors.  Not every color is equal in energy or wavelength or frequency.  For some reason the green was being reflected back to your eyes and the red was either being absorbed or sent off in a different direction.

Which of course begs the question:  What light do you have to be under in order to play the blues?

Holy shit that was also by far the most erudite and educational post anywhere in this blog.  You know a lot more than I do about a lot of stuff, Branwen.  It annoys me a little (hehe) that you're so smart about science and can also write so frickin' well.  I'm more of a one-trick pony, although I'm still trying to figure out what my trick is.  :)

Then again I think Branwen is a teacher so it makes sense that she knows her science, but being able to write well on top of that is just unfair, dammit!

Anyway, I knew enough about science to guess that perhaps there was something to do with the various colors in the visible light spectrum that could account for the mysterious color of lime green being reflected off of my silver guitar fret from a yellow light bulb across the room, and then Branwen provided a wonderfully-educational and well-written (and well-illustrated!) explanation that could possibly support my theory!  How cool.  I maybe learned some stuff too.  Although I'll forget it soon, because information never stays in my head for long, especially useful information, like about science and stuff.

Now I need to confess something that may annoy Branwen a bit, or maybe she'll just find it humorous, as I did.  A few hours after Branwen's post, or maybe the following day or so, I figured out how the lime green light got there, and it was a little embarrassing to admit, but ... I realized that when I was practicing my guitar, there was a little portable space heater at my feet, and the heater had a lime green "Power" light to tell you when it's on.  It was a tiny light, like a little button or LED thingie, so I forgot all about it being there!  Sorry.  /cheeks redden

Totally pedestrian and simple and non-fascinating explanation for what I assumed was all fascinating and complicated instead.  Perhaps there's a lesson in that!  Occam would approve.  Ah well.  Sorry Branwen!  But thanks for the fun post anyway!

[rick957]

Current nonsense

Imagine going through an entire day and never feeling any need whatsoever to worry about any part of it, neither a part that just happened or a part that's going to happen.  I think I'm learning how to do this.  Not there yet; not even close; but really learning.  It's a damn sight better than the ordinary amount of worrying I do on any given day.

I've got so much doubt and fear and worry and wrongness woven into the strands of my DNA that I keep discovering more that I didn't even realize was there.  It's okay, though, because I'm also killing away some of that awful shit and killing it good.  heh.

Oops not very deep today, huh?  Meh.  Maybe this stuff will be more interesting.



More replies to way-old stuff

"On this we disagree, as an artist (of various sorts), I would rather have good fans than lots of fans. Particularly since you say, 'Art should be above politics.' If I were to get published, there would definitely be a lot of political issues in my books, such as support for gay and polyamorous relationships (and doing so without making the story all about that aspect). It would be about neutrality and self-governance being major virtues. I don't need conservative fans, nor do I want them. If they like my stories, fine, same with music, but I don't want to *share* it with them anymore than I am happy to share a planet with them."

Aargh.  That last line gets an "aargh."  :(  ;)

I think the artist (capital-A; we're doing abstract theory here) has to be free to talk about whatever the fuck he or she wants.  Art becomes petty propaganda at the point where the artist stops speaking honestly and truthfully about his or her experience and starts trying to convince his or her audience to agree with his or her perspective.  Propaganda of any kind, even the most well-intentioned type that supports the most worthwhile causes, should be beneath the artist (capital-A).

The best art that addresses politics or social issues does so in a way that speaks the truth about the topic from the artist's perspective without pushing the audience to think one thing or another ... Maybe it's a distinction that doesn't mean anything to many other folks, but to me, it's hugely important, because I care a lot about certain kinds of art and loathe the prostitution of art for unworthy causes. 

Art shouldn't be made for causes; it is its own cause, and it's as high a cause as any other, or at least damn close.

The "aargh" above is because, well, hell.  I feel a lot of hatred towards a lot of people, both individuals and groups of individuals, but when I feel that way (which is very often indeed) I strive to remember that I can't hate another person without looking down on them first, and I can't look down on anyone because they're the same as me in all the ways that matter.  Also I need everyone.  I need the conservatives and the liberals, the Republicans and the Democrats, the geniuses and the doofuses, the kind and the cruel.  I need every one.  I got needs.

Tom Waits: 
"We're chained to the world /
and we all gotta pull"

"Honestly, if I were a musician, and I supported Obama, I'd play for him because if you like my music, you won't care what my political leanings are, or screw you if I do. Someone being a public figure does not make them subject to the whims of their audience (except monetarily, but I hate the economy more than I hate government). I don't support Obama (because I don't support government), and I don't specifically care for Springsteen, but if he supports Obama, then good on him for showing it."

The artist-audience relationship is very complicated and is still something I need to learn about and understand.  I used to think that consideration of the intended audience was necessary in order to make good art.  Lately I'm more of the mindset that consideration of the audience in any way is death for the artist, a recipe for crap art.  Maybe that's why propaganda fails as art, because it starts to take the audience into consideration.

Who does the artist make art for?  For herself or himself.  Maybe for God if you believe in one.  Most good artists don't, it seems.  :)

"I think the problem there is that art is generally about expression, which means ideas, and in the end, all ideas are based on views, be they moral, political, philosophical, or religious. Often, they're some combination of all of those. Are hymnals and gospel music not art? Despite my dislike for their message, I spent a lot of time in my High School Choir singing them, and grew to like a few of them because they were fun to listen to and sing."

"Beyond that, what about the Beatles? Is 'Revolution' not art? It's definitely political. Let's look into more 'absurd' examples that relate to your idea that Republicans can't love Bruce Springsteen due to his support of Obama. What about Elvis? Are Jews not allowed to love 'Blue Christmas', or an agnostic like me?"

"Even love songs delve into this area. Listen to 'Hey there, Delilah', it's about a heterosexual relationship by any but the loosest translation of the lyrics, and has a pretty strong tone of monogamy. That doesn't make the song any less beautiful to me, even though I refuse to support monogamy."

"It may seem like semantics, but it's arbitrary to say that supporting Obama is so different from supporting any other view. Hell, Springsteen sang 'Born in the USA', which is pretty political, regardless of what you believe the message to be."

"Why should it be wrong to sing, write, or draw anything you want, about anything you want. I mean, if it's propaganda, then most love songs are propaganda for heteronormative, monogamous life, and Star Wars is propaganda for a humanocentric universe (and that's totally ignoring the actual political and philosophical implications of the Jedi)."

Excellent observations and sharply expressed.  The key distinction, I think, isn't the topic of the art but the way the topic is addressed or the goal of the artist in addressing the topic.  One can make great art on nearly any topic under the sun.  One can also make shit art about any topic.  My opinion is that more often than not, art that addresses political or religious topics is bad art, not because it addresses those topics, but because of the way it does or because the artist aimed for an inappropriate goal, one that is lesser and inferior to the proper aims of art. 

I know as soon as I suggest that art has proper or improper aims, I lose most people.  :) 

Artists in general have used their art to push their views for ages, both subtly and blatantly.  In many famous paintings of Hell, for example, there are 'sinners' that depict someone that the painter didn't like.  As far as I'm concerned, an artist putting forth their stand on an issue (something ongoing) is speaking about something very close to their heart.  (I may not be fond of 'Christian rock' as a genre, but I'm okay with it as a concept.)  An artist who is endorsing a candidate (something transitory - at some point the candidate will no longer be there, whether the issue is resolved or not) is advertising.

Since this is my blog, I'll be inappropriate now and use this opportunity to point out that "Christian rock" is god-awful shit that needs to die die die.  (I know a lot about the topic from personal exposure in my addled youth.)

It's fun having a blog, you should try it sometime, you opinionated people out there.  :)

(OH MY GOD.  People laugh at me when I talk about Styx.  "Are they the guys who did Mr Roboto/Come Sail Away?"  I sometimes worry that I've imagined all their other songs.

hehehehe Yes!  Was it really Styx that did Mr. Roboto, as in "Domo arigato Mr. Roboto"?  That songs rules!  I didn't know that I liked any Styx songs.  There are probably others that I don't realize are theirs.

Oniya and Kythia, interesting conversation there about different topics of various artworks.  I don't think timelessness or universality is the important distinction though.  There are great rock songs about issues that lasted five minutes decades ago.  It's got something to do with how and why the topic is treated in the artwork.

I care a lot about abstract theories on Art but obviously am not knowledgable about the subject -- can't quote the great thinkers or express myself all that well on the topic.  It still matters to me a lot and fascinates me though.

"While I don't agree with the concept of the 'right' way to do art, but I can accept that over not calling it art at all. Uhh... that's all I got for your wall of text this time. I think we're both mature enough to learn something from a debate (that's why I come to your blog), and here I think this is that 'agree to disagree' point for me. I don't think the point is objectionable, I see what you mean, but I still don't agree with the idea of 'the right way' to do art. I don't care for Springsteen, but I would support both his right and his decision to play for Obama."

I'll bet I already said this but it's worth reiterating anyway.  Saying that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do art sounds dubious -- applying such moral terms to art raises the hackles of most artists, probably -- but most people will admit that some art is "good" or "great," while other artworks are "bad" or "crap" or "unsuccessful" or whatever term you like.  It's the same distinction using different terminology.  The right way to do art is the way to make good art, the wrong way is the ways to make bad art.  It's hard to make good art, and it's worth studying how and why good art turns out so good and bad art turns out so bad, so that perhaps we can all learn better how to make and to recognize good art.

There's so much more bad art than there is good, and so much awful bad shit art is popular and financially successful.  Most bad art isn't propaganda, but propaganda is bad art. 

Bad art becomes popular by appealing to its audience's worst instincts; it panders, manipulates, cheats, and tells attractive lies to everyone about the nature of reality and the truth of human experience. 

Great art illuminates and reveals the truth about reality and human experience; it elevates the audience, not just in some superficial emotional way (although it might do that too), but in the deepest sense, by communicating profound truths, or by reaching into our heart and plucking its strings in ways nothing else can.  Sumthin like that.

Society needs great art; people need it; I need it!  So I like to talk about it too. 

XD "I'm sorry for taking up all your posting time. It was an engaging post, and I'd be happy to talk about erotic writing more if you have things to say or ask."

"Also, you're right, I don't remember butting heads with you, but I butt heads a lot. If it was only mild, that's probably why, but I am happy to be friends with people that I disagree with. The post before this most recent one was entirely a surprise to me, because I wouldn't expect you to be Christian. I definitely disagree with some of the sentiments, and personally don't even support the idea I should be tolerant of certain types of ideals. However, you're an intelligent and interesting person, and you aren't evangelizing to me (I mean, even if that last post is evangelizing, this is your personal blog, that's your right in this space)."

"Honestly, I am quite spiritual, but not at all 'religious'. The part that surprises me is not that you believe in God, but that you believe in that one. To each their own, of course, as long as you don't tell me I should give a crap. I just thought I'd clarify what surprised me."

Here I just want to point out that mrsjaz also raised the spirituality vs. religiosity vs. Christianity topic, so I plan to think up something intelligent to say about those distinctions when I reply to her post from a long time ago, and that should be the next thing I reply to, I expect.

"Anyway, I'm happy to discuss writing and erotic writing whenever you'd like, and as I said before. I can always offer what writing I have done, though I don't know if I'd say it's amazing or anything."

I love analyzing and commenting on pieces of short fiction, erotic or otherwise; even just RP writing.  If you, RT, or anyone else who stops in, wants to post a piece of short fiction here in this blog, I'd be delighted to comment on it.  Let's see, here's a few important caveats, though, for anyone who wants to take me up on that offer.  First, obviously, the response will take a long time because I'm slow like that.  Second, nothing super-long, please -- only stuff that can be read in about ten minutes or less.  Third, please specify if you want positive comments only or if you also want constructive criticism.  I can usually find plenty of both to point out, but some people don't enjoy critical comments, and there's nothing wrong with that -- it's just for fun after all.  Fourth and finally, I'd like for other readers to feel free to leave comments too or engage in discussion about anything that gets posted here, so don't post anything unless you're cool with that.

Just an offer!  One of several buried in this blog somewhere for any eagle-eyed people poking around.  More replies coming soonish ......

[rick957]

5K views!  Wowsers.  Them 'bots get around, don't they?  ;)

Love to the human beans in that number though!

[Oniya]

Was it really Styx that did Mr. Roboto, as in "Domo arigato Mr. Roboto"?  That songs rules!  I didn't know that I liked any Styx songs.  There are probably others that I don't realize are theirs.

Yup, that was them!  :D Three others that you might know (and not know you knew) are 'Lady' 

Chorus

You're my lady of the morning
Love shines in your eyes
Sparkling, clear and lovely
You're my lady

'Babe'

Chorus

You know it's you, babe
Whenever I get weary and I've had enough
Feel like giving up
You know it's you, babe
Giving me the courage and the strength I need
Please believe that it's true...
Babe, I love you.

and '[noembed]Show Me The Way[/noembed]' (the only song I have ever done for Karaoke night)

Verse 1

Every night, I say a prayer
In the hopes that there's a heaven
And every day I'm more confused
As the saints turn into sinners
All the heroes and legends I knew as a child
Have fallen to idols of clay
And I feel this empty place inside
So afraid that I've lost my faith

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

~Lots of stuff rick said in his last very long post...~

"On the topic of art again, I think the nature of art as 'good' or 'bad' depends on the purpose of art. I think lots of art doesn't mean to try to tell people how to think, and ends up teaching a terrible lesson anyway, and plenty of good art is filled with 'propaganda' (such as Oniya's discussion of depictions of Hell, where Dante's Inferno comes to mind). However, again, we can argue that back and forth and get nowhere."

"As for 'needing people', I probably 'needed' conservative people in the past, to become who I am now, but I'm done needing them. I have no tolerance for stupid people and this idea that we should tolerate all kinds of people just doesn't do it for me. This falls into my, 'I don't talk about this because I'll say things that *will* anger people' area though. I don't care, but other people do, and I don't need the grief."


"Also, on the topic of erotic writing, I don't do it much outside E. By 'much', I mean, I wrote one once for the fuck of it. Since we were talking about erotic writing on E, that's what I was referring to, and the scene wouldn't be particularly short. I don't think it's equivalent to compare my solo writing to my RP writing anyway, they're very different animals."

[rick957]

Oniya -- those are some classic-sounding rock-type lyrics you posted.  (I love classic-sounding rock-type lyrics; they're an art unto themselves, IMO.)  I might know the songs by ear but they don't ring a bell just from the words.  Sadly I don't like listening to music online usually, so even though I could find links to the songs probably, I don't plan to look, just 'cause listening to music online always feels less-than-enjoyable to me.  But I'll keep an ear out for Styx next time I'm hearing various classic rock on the radio and in other places.

RT -- (I hope you don't mind the lazy abbreviation there, I'm lazy) -- It's cool, thanks for the reply replies.  :)  I enjoy discussing things at great length (heh, obviously) even when I don't necessarily agree with people -- I mean, that's one way that I learn things and sometimes even change my mind about things, if I hear an interesting point from someone who disagrees with me.  That's the only reason that I point out disagreements that I have with anyone here, because I enjoy the dialog, even when we disagree.  You have a lot of interesting views and ideas, and anytime you feel like it, I'm interested in hearing them, including if you feel like doing lots of back-and-forth dialog.  That kind of thing can sometimes cause hurt feelings or unpleasantness, but I believe -- I certainly hope, at least -- that it's possible for people to dialog respectfully and pleasantly even on points of disagreement. 

So anyway, just sayin.'  You've got more posts here I'll have more to say about later, as I continue to catch up on replyings. 

[Oniya]

Oniya -- those are some classic-sounding rock-type lyrics you posted.  (I love classic-sounding rock-type lyrics; they're an art unto themselves, IMO.)  I might know the songs by ear but they don't ring a bell just from the words.  Sadly I don't like listening to music online usually, so even though I could find links to the songs probably, I don't plan to look, just 'cause listening to music online always feels less-than-enjoyable to me.  But I'll keep an ear out for Styx next time I'm hearing various classic rock on the radio and in other places.

It's the genre they're usually classed in, so you're fairly likely to catch one or more of their songs in a given day's playlist.  (I remembered you saying that you usually don't listen online, or at least via YouTube, so I only linked one of them.  :D )

Actually, since I know you're a fan of supporting artists, what's your opinion of things like Pandora, where I believe there is a payment made to the labels for permission to play the songs?  (And, as a result, ad space that gets sold on the 'stations').

[rick957]

Nifty avatar there Oniya.  :)

Actually the truth of the matter is that I've heard lots of Styx in the distant past because I worked at a music store with at least one and probably several people who loved Styx and would play their CDs in the store, which means I probably know lots of their songs by ear.  Working at a music store was great that way, even if it was a shitty music chain -- it was great fun.  But brick-and-mortar music stores have kind of gone the way of the slide rule, increasingly.

Pandora is one of a small handful of sites that gets recommended to me pretty often by people who are more comfortable than I am so far about listening to music online.  It's only a matter of time before I get into that habit, just like everyone else, but I'm enough of a contrarian and Luddite and gray-haired crank to enjoy the fact that I'm often behind the times.  (It's not all gray, of course; yet!  Aging is such fun.)

Oh anyway I feel very strongly that musicians need to get paid somehow by somebody or else they can't be full-time musicians, and I want there to still be full-time musicians in the public sphere, because I love so many of them and consider them essential contributors to the entire culture and society.  All that said, though, I don't know enough about the various revenue streams that still exist for musicians to have any strong preferences or dislikes for any of them. 

The truth is that most of my CD collection was purchased from cut-out bins and flea markets and used music stores, and lots of it is promo CDs that no one ever got paid for, so the original artist often didn't get money from me for their CDs, even though I've seen most of my favorite artists live and bought other stuff of theirs and turned on others who bought their stuff, so I figure it all works out.  I'm not a purist about it, in other words.  (And yeh, I got some guilt anyway, but not too awful much.  I didn't mean nobody harm!, buying all that second-hand stuff.) 

Nowadays as all my favorite bands have started to starve and/or die out and disappear, it feels extra-important to me to find ways to spend money on them, and I hope that's true for all other dedicated music fans, including other cheap mofos like me.  That's my take.  Not that you were necessarily asking, but I'll use any excuse to run my mouth, dontchaknow.  :)

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

RT -- (I hope you don't mind the lazy abbreviation there, I'm lazy)

"I meant to say this before, and forgot. You can call me Ryu, that's my name (within the context that I don't believe a legal name is more real because it's on some government document)."

Oh anyway I feel very strongly that musicians need to get paid somehow by somebody or else they can't be full-time musicians, and I want there to still be full-time musicians in the public sphere, because I love so many of them and consider them essential contributors to the entire culture and society.  All that said, though, I don't know enough about the various revenue streams that still exist for musicians to have any strong preferences or dislikes for any of them. 

"I know there's a definite difference between the ideal and what is real, but this is one area where I go with my principles over any social obligations. I believe all things, especially art, don't really belong to anyone. I believe in communal society, so, I believe nothing should have a cost. Music is made as a contribution to the community, and in turn I do my job as a doctor, farmer, mechanic, or whatever, and when that musician comes by I do my job for him just as much as anyone. I'm not setting up a discussion here, I'm just explaining the reasoning behind my thought process that I just don't really care what people think about me listening to music by whatever means I want."

"If you want to listen to a song online without guilt, look it up on Youtube and see if there's a VEVO account for the band (just make sure the uploader has VEVO in the username). As I understand it, those are entirely legal and probably use advertising to provide revenue."

[rick957]

What's the difference between an artist and a non-artist?

An artist is someone whose purpose in life is to do something useless.

A non-artist is someone whose purpose in life is to do something useful.

I haven't figured out yet if I'm an artist, but I figured out a long time ago that I was useless.  hehehehehehe

"I meant to say this before, and forgot. You can call me Ryu, that's my name (within the context that I don't believe a legal name is more real because it's on some government document)."

Another interesting proposition but one I have no opinion about.  I have an older brother who legally changed his first name, and that kinda freaked me out.  I used to not like my real-life name but now I kinda do.

I picked a really goofy and inappropriate screenname for Elliquiy because I didn't know any better at the time when I joined.  Live and learn.

"I know there's a definite difference between the ideal and what is real, but this is one area where I go with my principles over any social obligations. I believe all things, especially art, don't really belong to anyone. I believe in communal society, so, I believe nothing should have a cost. Music is made as a contribution to the community, and in turn I do my job as a doctor, farmer, mechanic, or whatever, and when that musician comes by I do my job for him just as much as anyone. I'm not setting up a discussion here, I'm just explaining the reasoning behind my thought process that I just don't really care what people think about me listening to music by whatever means I want."

But you're listening to music in the real world rather than any ideal world, and in the real world, musicians either get paid to make music or get paid to do something other than make music.  There are many great musicians who make a living doing something else and somehow find the time to also make great music on the side, basically for free.  These types of musicians are going to do just fine whether the music industry disappears or not, and it certainly looks like the industry is on its way to disappearing.  If and when that happens, certain other musicians will have to stop making music:  those musicians who are only able to make their great music if they focus on doing it full-time rather than having a second job to pay the bills. 

I don't know which musicians are which, but I do know that almost all of my favorite musicians did some or all of their best work during periods when they were doing music full-time, so I figure that if nobody gets to do that anymore in the future, there will be a lot less great music out there.  That would be a shame in my opinion.

On the other hand, there are reasons why great music gets made that have nothing to do with any of those considerations, so that's a cause for hope.

[rick957]

Belated replies to visitor comments, chapter 22.  I'll catch up someday, darnit!

Rick, I have been skimming you blog and the title was soooo tempting I just had to have a look and raise some maybe obvious points with you.
I have been off the site for a long time and I am slowly trying to read and catch up with the things that interest me.
I liked the blog so far, and I know it’s a very serious blog at times, but I’m a quite a serious sort of person, so it’s okay as far as I am concerned and I also understood it.

Hope you're still out there someplace, mrsjaz, and that you get back to this blog long enough to see this much-belated reply to your post here, which was incredibly thought-provoking and much-appreciated.  Having visitors to this blog who have such thoughtful and provocative things to say is always a pleasure.  Of course, heck, having visitors to this blog who have nothing to say at all is also a pleasure, but that's a different kind of pleasure.  :)  Anyway thanks for stopping in and commenting.

If you do choose to scrap it I still hope that it helped you work through some of the very real dilemmas that people(Christians) have had to endure at the hands of such a (imo) corrupted idea.
I say corrupted because there exist evidence to suggest the fundamentals of your faith originated not out of nothing, but from the mythologies and events of much older cultures.

If Christianity originated out of the mythologies and events of older cultures, how does that make the fundamentals of Christianity corrupt?  Logically speaking, I don't see why that must follow.  Christianity makes life-altering propositions about the nature of reality that may or may not be true, but whether or not those propositions are unique to Christianity would not necessarily make them true or untrue.

I would suggest that they are unique to Christianity in at least this way:  Christianity's propositions about the nature of reality are centered on Christ.  I don't think that's the case with older mythologies, although I understand that some people think Christ was just another version of a mythological figure who appears in older religions also, but I don't believe that or see any reason to believe that.  Yet.  Perhaps you can persuade me otherwise!  :)

Still, I think you can guess by now that I am no believer in god or any religion, but I don’t like extremes much either, and the alternatives, the rational, science based ideologies seem to deny humanity any real empathy.

I'm very glad that you chose to post here in spite of the fact that you don't believe in a god or any religion; that alone makes me interested in your perspective already, especially since you seem to have arrived at that position with serious thought.  I arrived at Christianity with serious thought and rejected every alternative I've heard yet, but it wasn't the serious thought that convinced me to do that.  Regardless, I respect serious thought by anyone on any subject.

Why is empathy important?  If you don't mind the question.  I may ask others here too, but it's fine if you don't reply to them, although I'd be interested in your replies to any of this.  I like discussions and dialogs when I can have them.

I once asked someone here on E, why he thought people who believed in god could enslave another people, he replied, Because there was no law against it…  I followed with; How come these same people did not enslave their own mothers, brothers and families. Or kill and rape and castrate them? He did not give a clear answer.

He could have simply said they lacked empathy!

I know the example was kind of strange but the point I was trying to make was that the feeling one has for family should be the same for strangers, if you’re a Christian.

As I understand it, this shows great insight into Christianity.  I agree.

The hypocrites, and parasites have called themselves Christians or whatever for a long time, you know them and I know them, but my problem with "bad" Christians is that I cannot tell them apart, the  “good” Christians, the sheep, often sound and look like wolves to me.

Totally, strongly agree.

I could not call myself a Christian (if I was one) because of this point. So given what you think of certain Christians it surprised me that you still have to consider yourself of that faith. That, as you pointed out in your blog must be a very hard thing to do!             

It's a free choice rather than anything I feel that I "have" to do.  Your points about the challenge of associating oneself with others as historically and utterly reprehensible as my fellow Christians are well taken.  I hate associating myself with them but choose to do so anyway; I'm sure they don't like me much either!  hehehehehe  Well, most of 'em anyway.

I wanted to ask you quite a few questions, and I know I have bombard you with too many of them to answer all at once., but my first is why did you choose a religion and not spirituality?

I feel the two are very different. Religion, to me, has been used to exploit our need for rules and our connection to nature. Spirituality is universal and can require no cultural god figure. Could you feel spiritual and not worship anything or anybody?

It sounds like an alternative with certain obvious appeals, like the ones you describe here.  Because I have chosen to believe Christianity, I can't believe that it's possible for anyone to be spiritually healthy or aware or even alive without becoming a Christian, because Christianity claims that everyone has a spirit that is so corrupt that it's basically dead.  It also claims that there is one and only one way to fix that problem, and I choose to believe its claims, although I respect and admire many other people who reject its claims altogether.

Here's something I can never say enough in this blog.  I am no authority on Christianity, not even close.  I am not a good person to learn about Christianity from, not only because I don't know all that much about it, but also because I'm not at all a good person for anyone to learn anything from, considering how many problems and enormous flaws I am riddled with on a daily basis.  All that said, I take seriously the responsibility laid upon every Christian to speak openly about it without disrespecting others, so I try to do that in this blog and in other places where it seems appropriate. 

But it's so important for anyone who reads any of this blog to realize that there are knowledgeable and authoritative and trustworthy people out there who can talk to you or to anyone about Christianity, and I am not one of them, so if anyone wants to consider Christianity seriously, they should talk to one of those people.  Nothing I say and nothing you can learn from any source besides one of those trustworthy Christian leaders is a remotely-adequate substitute for what they can tell you in person.

I also wanted to pick up on a point about the nature of your god.

“…because he is real, and knowing God through him is the whole reason any of us were put here to begin with.”

Who is the “us” you speak of, all humans? All English speaking westerners? Or “us” as in us believers?

Your god is universal right?

Right, I believe there's only one God, a "universal" one, who made every person and has a purpose for every person which he chose to tell all of us, as mentioned previously.

Another point similar to one already made by Oniya, when she asked why god would choose a particular group of people over any other group of people… a good point, and I understand that you could not answer, after all you are not in your god’s mind are you?

I can't really respond to the point about what Oniya said because there's so durn much material in this silly blog that I have no idea where to look to find that part!  Sorry!  :)  But if you want a direct response to that point so much that you're willing to dig up the relevant part and provide a link, I'll be happy to reply to it.  Don't bother on my account though; I hope our conversation can take place without either of us making any great effort or doing any research like that, unless you really want to.  :)  I'm lazy, it's true.

Christianity claims that God chose to reveal certain truths about his purposes and actions and intentions, and he didn't reveal those exclusively to me but to everyone who hears about Jesus and understands what he did on behalf of humanity.  I have no special knowledge or special access to God whatsoever, but I believe the things I've been told about him in Christianity, as anyone could.

My point is similar. How could I, as a heathen from say the Congo, believe in the introduction of a white god figure into my culture? How is that truth? Is it just coincidence that your god looks like you? 

I sympathize with this point, but strictly speaking, Christianity does not claim that God looks like any person except Jesus, who was not white according to the best available information about him, not just in the Bible but what historical indications we have.  Or so I've heard, not being greatly knowledgeable about the historical research.  Personally Jesus's ethnicity isn't important to me very much.  I think it's funny that so many Westerners and so many Christians picture Jesus, an ethnic Jew of Middle Eastern origin, as a white dude.  :)  It's so silly to think that.  But again, I don't consider it important.  I've heard people claim Jesus was "black," but I suppose they meant that he may have had extremely dark skin, and I suppose that might very well be true.

I'm not white.  I don't talk about that much in this blog.  Maybe I will someday.  I like white folks though, nothing against 'em!  People of all ethnicities, I like ya.

Again I know you are not “god” so you are unable to answer and I understand that, but it’s because of these types of unanswered questions, and the disastrous history Christianity has had on people, societies, and cultures, that I find  hard to forgive.

I also find it very hard to forgive indeed.  I'm usually not able to feel much of anything but scorn and anger towards other Christians, even the ones who deserve better, but I'm trying to improve that terrible attitude of mine, because it's wrong to look down on anyone or hate anyone, and also because I'm a Christian myself and don't want to be a hypocrite if I can help it.

How any person would/could support that institution ( given they have the choice that is) seems strange to me, even after reading all the criticisms you  have aimed at the institution and it’s people, why do you still call yourself a Christian?

Could you ever imagine (from your religious perspective) that you could be supporting the wickedness of a corrupt organisation? ( The devil’s work)  With respect, can you see why I might not think you were experiencing truth or free will? That you are as sheepish in your need to follow something as many others are?

Yes I can see how you may think that; in fact, if I read this blog and wasn't me, I'd probably reach nearly identical conclusions, if not far less charitable and respectful ones.

I call myself a Christian because I choose to believe Christianity contains the one and only and most important truth about reality, and making that simple choice is by far the most important thing I've ever done, because it has transformed my entire life and continues to do so.  In other words, it's pretty much my whole life, in the sense that even though I have many interests that have nothing to do with Christianity, those other interests pale by comparison in terms of my personal priorities.

It's an unpopular choice, especially in some places, but if it's the truth, then its unpopularity isn't important.

It seems to me that Christianity and religions are like traps that you might fall into unless you are very, very careful. True you would need to know what to look for in order not to fall in, but that is knowledge … to know, not to believe or to have faith … but to know. 

I'm glad to hear you say this because it shows that you have a sharp intellect and a high degree of skepticism and a healthy respect for knowledge and facts.  Those are all so important, and I aspire to have all those things too.  I also believe that it's possible to become convinced based upon human knowledge that Christianity is bollocks; that's what most of the smartest, most knowledgeable people believe.  I believe those people have fallen into a very dangerous trap that is very hard to get out of, but it's possible to get out of.  They (and perhaps you) believe the same about me and consider my belief in Christianity to be foolishness of the first order.

I love to dialog with anyone who is knowledgeable about almost any subject, and I try hard to listen and learn from people who know things I don't, because there are so many people like that -- including yourself of course, mrsjaz -- and I am grateful for opportunities to learn from them.

I hope some of these points are clear enough for you to understand.

I hope I understood your points clearly and responded in a way that you found respectful and perhaps interesting or at least enjoyable to read; I certainly enjoyed the heck out of your comments and the opportunity to dialog with you, and I hope you'll feel free to comment here or visit here any time.  It's a pleasure and honor to have readers and commenters like you and the others who have posted here.  :)  Thanks for reading!

More replies to old stuff pending, thanks for your patience.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

But you're listening to music in the real world rather than any ideal world, and in the real world, musicians either get paid to make music or get paid to do something other than make music.  There are many great musicians who make a living doing something else and somehow find the time to also make great music on the side, basically for free.  These types of musicians are going to do just fine whether the music industry disappears or not, and it certainly looks like the industry is on its way to disappearing.  If and when that happens, certain other musicians will have to stop making music:  those musicians who are only able to make their great music if they focus on doing it full-time rather than having a second job to pay the bills. 

I don't know which musicians are which, but I do know that almost all of my favorite musicians did some or all of their best work during periods when they were doing music full-time, so I figure that if nobody gets to do that anymore in the future, there will be a lot less great music out there.  That would be a shame in my opinion.

On the other hand, there are reasons why great music gets made that have nothing to do with any of those considerations, so that's a cause for hope.

"I don't see the world of music struggling because of something I'm doing. I'm not making that 'I'm only one person' excuse, what I am saying is that the problem doesn't lie with the users it lies with the system. We outgrow things all the time, but yet we are mired in tradition. I'd rather grow, than stew in traditions. I am not afraid to say that I live by this principle because it's convenient to me. I don't want to engage in the lengthy discussion it would take to explain why I feel its okay to pick and choose when I live by the ideal. Some would call it hypocrisy, but those people don't understand that a principle can mean different things in different situations."

[rick957]

Well said, Ryu.  I agree with many of your opinions, and even when we disagree, I'm struck by the amount of serious and independent thought you seem to have put into the opinions you express.  I admire that.

I do worry about the dramatic decline of the music industry and the effect that will have on culture and society.  The reasons for the decline are complex and little understood, in my opinion, and as usual, I have my own independent theory to account for the decline, which I'll probably spout off about eventually in this blog, if I remember to.

What worries me more than the dramatic decline is the fact that so little of the public seems to even know that it has been happening.  I think our major media has done a terrible job of making that fact known to the public, and I'm cynical enough to wonder if there aren't financial factors behind the under-reporting of that particular story; it so happens that the few remaining major record companies are all (maybe one exception?  it changes so fast) owned by mega-corporations that also own all the major media outlets -- tv, print, top websites, you name it.  Also own all the big companies manufacturing and selling devices that rely on record companies and other content providers to help sell their tech crap.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist ... but you never know ... ;)

[rick957]

Something I wrote while drunk and thought i would also post here because I want this blog to show me as the person I am, not just the person I aspire to be, not just the person I hope to be someday, but the person I am right now, flaws and fucked-up-edness intact, still on my journey, still struggling like so many other people are

I wrote the following and sent it to a person I used to know and still love very much.  It was sent using Facebook and I joined Facebook just to get back in touch with this person, because she decided not to talk to me a long time ago, and I had no other way to reach her.  Figure it out if you're willing to try, or else skip this post.  Thanks.

::::::

Alright, I lied, this once.  I lie other times too, it's true, but seriously, I've done a damn good job for the last fifteen years or so of leaving you and your ex-husband alone, haven't I?  It wasn't easy to do, because of certian things.  Anyway.  It wasn't easy.

I'm listening to "Ruiner" as I type this, and it makes me think of you, because I saw someplace on your blog maybe (?) which I BRiefly skimmed a tiny bit of, I saw you name "Ruiner" as your personal favorite song or something.  That's seriously fucked up, Lxxxxxxx.  You rule. 

I don't have any idea if you even saw my previous message to you here on Facebook, but if you didn't, that will make this message seem even more bizarre than it already seems, if you ever read it.  Lif'es like that sometimes, what can I Say?  hehehehehe

I'm being inappropriate, but I'm depending on yur intelligence and integrity to let this slide, 'cuz it's not like I"ve ever been this open with you before.  I wouldn't do it now if I diddn't assume that I'll never hear anything from you or Gxxxxx again no matter what I do or say.

I'm drinking vodka, getiing seriously shit-faced, as I type this.  HEnce typos and other inappropriateness.  hehehehehe  See what kinds of silliness you open yourself up to when you totall ignore somebody?  It's okay tho, you can keep ignoring me, I'd do it too if I were yoooo

Let's see.  Why nnot?  Let's drop our masks for a sec, why not?  Thank God for vodka.  This moment is sponsored by Smirnoff.

I still pray for both you and Gxxxxx by name every time I say prayers in which I mention the people I care most about on this planet.  That's probably ridiculous considering that neither you nore Gxxxxx has seen fit to say a word to me in something like six or seven years or something.  That fact hasn't changed the fact that I still care enough about both of you to include you in my shortlist of people I care most about who are still breathing and living out there somewherreonthe face of planet earth.

Wow, I'll just about bet that I'm wasting my time by even writing this message, becasue I"ll bet that Facebook won't even seend a message this long.  Okay, whatever.

Did you notice that "Ruiner," which may very well be the best song on the best NIN album, maaaaybe, happens to appear immediately after the song that is by far the best-known and best-loved-by-the-general-public song by NIN, "Closer"?  Is that a coincidence?  I"ll bet it's not..  BUt I might be giving Trent more credit than he deserves.

I remember once, you've probably forgotten, talking to you about the idea that most people who love NIN don't understand that "Closer" isn't celebrating sex but approaching it as a ritual of fucked-up-edness.  I mean, we didn't say it in those words at all, but that was more or less what we both understood and agreed upon.  That was kewl.  I still miss you and think well of you, Lxxxxxxx.  Why does any human being waste the mental energy it takes to miss or think well of someone who has freely chosen to have nothing whatsoever to do with him for so many years?  Oh man.  How fucked up is that?  Will you ever read any of this?  What on earth will you think?

Look, here's part of it.  I used to think Gxxxxxx was so amazing and so tight with me that I could let him see everything that was inside me without censoring a bit of it or making any of it more palatable, and yet he would remain my firned.  Boy we learned that wasn't the case, didn't we?  heehehehh.  (that was meant to look like laughter but I'm now drunk enought that I won't go back and fix it.  wow I'm a little deerrunk, aren't I? hehehehehe

In case you're keeping track, and in case you know the album so well that this means anything to you -- and I'll bet you do, even to this day, after the divorce and everything -- goddamn, divorce?  fu

uck.

.

--- I'm listening now to "The Becoming."  I love this album.

Fuck I gotta stop this, it's embarrassing and inappropriate.  Sorry Lxxxxxx.  I think so highly of you that I"m goin g to send this to you via Facebook (what? FUCK FACKEBOOK), even if I shouldn't, because I love you enough that for some stupid inappopriate reason, I would like to show you even this much of me, this much of me that no one else has seen, not even Gxxxxxx, and it's not like anybody ever saw as much of me as he did, although he probably doesn't even remember, even though I'll never forget, emotionally if not in describable details.

Sorry for showing you any of this, Lxxxxxx.  It's not right; it's not approprieate; and although it might offend you or shock you or just piss you off, bothering to read any of this -- I let you read something elese I wrote once, and you got annoyed immediately, and that upset me just a little, it's funny how stupide and petty the thingst that stick in your memory often are --

Listen, I have nothing left to lose, in terms of my quote-unquote "relationship" with you or with Gxxxxxxxx.  It ended not just months but YEARS ago.  Who gives a shit?  You should have deleted this message without reading it.  Mebbe Facebook will refuse it or shorten it and save you the trouble; I don't know if they will or  not, buecause fuck Faadcebook , I don't normally use it.

"I wanna fuck everone in the world, I wanna do something tha tmatters"

That's exactly it.

I"m very seriously committed to Christianity, these days, and I saw soemthing in your blog or someplace -- I only saw any of it because I googled your name in a stupid attempt to find a way to reach Gxxxxxxxx, wchich was unsusccesful by the waY; I can't even find a way to tell him that I still love him and miss him and wish whatever the fuck happened to separate us hadn't happneed --

Aargh.  Will you ever see any of this?  I hope not.  I'm goingn to try to send this to you anyway, because like I said I have nothing whatsoever to lose in terms of my (non-existent, long-since-concluded) relationship with you, so it can't hurt anything, and "A wArm Soft Placwe" is in my ears now, and I feeell liike letting everything do.  go.  everything.  god. go.

God bless you Lxxxxx Xxxxxxx.  I hope you have the happiest and best life anyone has ever had.  I still think you're hot and more importantly miss your company, although I haven't had the pleasur eof it for many years.  That's kinda impressive, aain't it?  I still recall what it was like to see you wrinkle your nose and eyebrows and genuinely laugh.  That's something even you have probably never seen, but I had that pleasure, as did many others who spent time with you, and it was a real pleasure indeed.

Sorry to send you this.  If it succeeds in (Reptile at the moment, what an intro) prwesuading you to contact me again. then it wasn't entirely a waste of tim e and efort, was it?  I miss you and think you of inappropraitely often and wish only the best for you an ddon't want to fuck you or anyting, although you're hot and everything, but mostly I just think yiou're an amazing and wonderful woman who i wish I still knew.  Bye now and be welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
-- Jxxxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx, whom you might no even remege;rkamefvkb nrber

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"Been there, never got drunk, but been there... Man, that's depressing... Not because of what you typed necessarily, but because I remember how awful that feels."

"I know that feel bro." Fistbump.

[rick957]

*returns the fistbump, with gratitude*

Beautiful women.  Alcohol.  Memories.  Changing times.  Solitude.  All adds up to a nasty little cocktail.  hehehehe

What, me pretentious?  ;)

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"I try not to regret anything, but there's always that one girl... If I could have one thing I once had and lost, anything at all, it would probably be her friendship."

[rick957]

Hey Ryu, since you raised the topic, and if and only if you feel like it -- it sounds like there's a story there, and I'd be interested to hear it, here or privately.  If you do it here, I'll trade you and explain the background of the alcoholic rant above.  But no obligation or anything, as always.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"I have very few stories I'd consider 'private', only thoughts I won't voice in certain company to save from the hassle. This does not fall in either category, though I don't know if it's exactly a story I'd consider particularly eventful or satisfying."

"Short story goes like this: Boy meets Girl. Boy opens Girl up to a less sheltered world. Girl teaches Boy way more important lessons he ever taught her. Boy and Girl drift apart..."

"The long version starts in Middle School... Yeah, puppy love, right? Meaningless and childish and you (whoever is reading this, not just rick) can go ahead and walk away now and say how little it means or whatever. For those still here, let's try to keep the beginning brief... There was a guy I was friends with (he's a pretentious dick, and kinda always was, but we shared some laughs and whatnot), and we were friends in Middle School. The most important thing he ever did for me was introduce me to Allie (I think a first name is impersonal enough to use the real name), his little sister."

"We were friends after my mom killed herself and I was feeling the first real effects of my bipolarity. It was a rough time, very very rough. Allie and my best friend at the time were put through a lot of stress, because I wanted to die enough to threaten it, but wanted to live enough to call them to talk me down. When it wasn't all dramatic, Allie and I talked about sex (something she hadn't yet become acquainted with, and something I hadn't yet been a part of) or any number of other 'not-so-appropriate' topics. We talked on the phone often, and Allie's dad hated me, even though I don't think he really knew what we talked about. He knew enough to see me as a 'bad influence'."

"Her brother and I (and our group of friends) were ever the outcasts, and she wasn't exactly popular, but her other friends were 'normal'. We dated shortly, because I loved her dearly (maybe not when we were dating, but I did after and still do now), but she was distant. Reflecting on it, sex seemed more a curiosity to her, than something she wanted. I pushed, she pulled away, but we remained friends for quite a while."

"She was the first person to (inadvertently) teach me that love isn't true love unless it's returned. Sadly, I took the lesson wrong and stopped seeking girls who didn't care about me, and started dating a girl who cared more about me than I did about her. I came to love her, but the damage was done the moment I decided to pick her for the wrong reasons. That's a different story altogether."

"Anyway, Allie managed to help me through a very rough part of my life, she helped me get together with the girl I love most to this day. Unfortunately, I started becoming who I am now (a great deal of that being through her influence), and her 'normal' friends saw me as more and more a poor influence and controversial individual. Allie clung to that sense of 'normalcy' over... I dunno what I'd call our relationship. I pushed, she pulled away (it happens with me a lot), and eventually we drifted apart. Now... Nothing, we just don't have what we used to, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how many times I've wished upon a star (both literally and figuratively, I swear)..."

"I regret the way our relationship drifted, it's one of my few regrets. I wish that I could at least have her friendship, if not her love (Note: I'm polyamorous and don't look at 'love' the traditional way, so I don't ever wish she'd replace my current dearest love). I guess that's it... Maybe one day the story will have a new chapter, but it ain't someday soon. There's my story, I didn't do that to hear yours, but I'll be glad to read it should you decide to put it here."