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Author Topic: ...wtf...Stalin  (Read 3895 times)

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Online MagicalPenTopic starter

...wtf...Stalin
« on: January 05, 2009, 01:44:09 PM »
To fragment off of this thread: http://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=25359.0


So, from my understanding, in Russia they like to make Hero's out of people, Stalin being one of them. I previously read an article about some boy who turned in his parents (for what reason, I do not know) and he has been hailed as a Soviet Hero (and the youngest one). Some one did some digging, and most of the story about the kid and his background is fabricated, but the tiny village that has a memorial to him survives on the 'tourism' it generates.

As far as Vladimir 'Stalin' Putin, I agree. He has 'stepped down' but still rules the country and is former KGB himself. They are also passing/have passed a bill on Treason that makes (basically) speaking negatively about Russia a Crime punishable by up to 20 years in prison. That one in particular will get passed in the Kremlin as they are sympathetic to Putin and is very Stalin-esque.

Offline Lotherio

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 12:52:34 PM »
I don't want to splinter off this thread either, but making heroes of historic figures is something that every country can take blame in.  Not to go into the details, but there are plenty of good books that look at historical figures from American History and compare them with the fabled version that exists in many elementary education books.  We can't ingore our own historic 'evils' though we try as we might.

Stalin might be one of those figures for Russia.  When you look at the actual history, its shocking at times, but a few good fables got out about him and people tend to believe the myth of the figure over the truth.

Offline Haylie

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 03:25:33 AM »
Rah Rah Rasputin...

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 04:01:42 PM »
Was he banned for posting rubbish? Cause I would 100% understand that.


Stalin made the Sovjet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero. Furthermore to compare Putin to Stalin is the most ridiculous thing ever. It would be to compare Hitler to Obama for that matter. Putin, and Medvedev now, are building Russia from the terrible mess it was left in by every country in the world after, almost every country in the world, pushed the USSR to split up. The entire region, from Kazachstan to Ukraine is one big politically instable region thanks to the USSR splitting up. Putin has brought stability in that region where every other world leader failed to even acknowledge the problem existed. The whole world was focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan and nobody cared shit about the CIS countries. Putin did so don't come crying about all the things he's done wrong, cause in my opinion Putin deserves to be a hero as well and get him a spot next to Lenin on the red square.

What I wonder is why everybody is judging Russia and blaming us for not being free in speech. Don't judge a country you know sh*t about.

I know it's been a while ago since this was posted but being patriotic I can't stand people judging my country, based on stupidities and one sided information always told on western media. Go to Russia, be there for a few years.. then judge and see if you still think that way.

Sorry if I over react.

Offline Lotherio

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 04:59:08 PM »
Stalin made the Sovjet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero.

Sorry if I over react.

You're not overreacting just defending something you believe in.  From my perspective, Stalin is as much a hero for what he has done as much as Thomas Jefferson is a hero for writing "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence while he did not believe that himself, writing in his diary to the effect that the sentiment he wrote in the Declaration was not intended to encompass men of African descent; he believed in the institution of slavery.

My only personal knowledge of Stalin (that I actually researched) involves Russian politics from about the time of the 2nd/October Revolution up to the April decree of 1932 (that outlawed independent artistic associations).  I'm not even upset by the loss of freedom to the artists in Russia under that decree.  It is interesting that Stalin associated with the heroic realists, allowing them to paint the images of Lennon - his patronage of these artist linking him in line of succession to Lennon directly through propaganda in what would become Soviet Socialist Realism, which led to his decree of 1932 because he understood how powerful art could be.

I'm actually more thankful to Stalin, as well as Hitler (Degenerate Art), and even Mussolini (who displaced the futurists) because all of the great artists from those countries came to America when they were persecuted (and in part following general demoralization following WWI for the artists and their home countries roles in the war) and this migration of artists, to an extent, helped shape our country to what it is today, having a large entertainment industry.

Offline Hellis

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 06:14:09 AM »
Was he banned for posting rubbish? Cause I would 100% understand that.


Stalin made the Sovjet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero. Furthermore to compare Putin to Stalin is the most ridiculous thing ever. It would be to compare Hitler to Obama for that matter. Putin, and Medvedev now, are building Russia from the terrible mess it was left in by every country in the world after, almost every country in the world, pushed the USSR to split up. The entire region, from Kazachstan to Ukraine is one big politically instable region thanks to the USSR splitting up. Putin has brought stability in that region where every other world leader failed to even acknowledge the problem existed. The whole world was focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan and nobody cared shit about the CIS countries. Putin did so don't come crying about all the things he's done wrong, cause in my opinion Putin deserves to be a hero as well and get him a spot next to Lenin on the red square.

What I wonder is why everybody is judging Russia and blaming us for not being free in speech. Don't judge a country you know sh*t about.

I know it's been a while ago since this was posted but being patriotic I can't stand people judging my country, based on stupidities and one sided information always told on western media. Go to Russia, be there for a few years.. then judge and see if you still think that way.

Sorry if I over react.


AS i know a lot of rusian immigrants their view is about the opposite of yours. And to "force as to speak. Annexing countries for the "glorius soviet union"? Alot of those countiries hated the russia goverment, and were their own ethnical groups with their own countries to begin with. The age of Empires (lol whut?) are gone.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 06:38:55 AM »
They were countries in the Soviet Union as well. Russia offers to help them now and if they reject the help it's not like we will invade them. We don't want to be a big empire again. Without the USSR, those countries simply would have stopped existing just like they are now. People might know Uzbekistan or Kyrgizstan but how many know where they are and what they are?

As for those immigrants.... there is a reason they left Russia.. that's all I have to say about it.

Offline Lithos

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 06:45:02 AM »
There is no reason for this thread to be in adult socializing. Someone please move this crap to politics/religion forum so that people can ignore it.

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Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 06:48:21 AM »
Yes, I think this is better suited to politics.

Something to bear in mind .. politics is one of those subjects that people can get very sensitive about. I trust that this discussion will be kept civil ... won't it?

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 07:33:03 AM »


Stalin made the Soviet Union into what it was and therefore he deserves to be called a hero.


At what cost? Stalin killed more of his countrymen than Hitler did. He wasn't a hero he was a monster.


And the Soviet Union wasn't exactly anything to crow about.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 08:08:26 AM »
It's not the USSR I'm crowing about it's Stalin.

Yes he killed a lot of people, mostly not Russian and therefore not countrymen, but Ukrainians. Not that it makes it less evil don't get me wrong. The Holodomor is the worst holocaust ever, although the Jews claim WW2 was.

But there is so much more to Stalin and now to Putin that the western world doesn't see.
They both dragged the country out of the mud into something good and solid and for that they should be heroes. Not for the things they did wrong because every hero has made mistakes, it's what makes them human.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 09:42:03 AM »
 They did it at the expense of millions of bodies, restricted freedoms and ignoring the voice of native peoples.  The relocation of millions of people from their native lands caused many deaths. The world wanted the CIS broken up because it was the USSR.

 
Quote
Russia offers to help them now and if they reject the help it's not like we will invade them. We don't want to be a big empire again. Without the USSR, those countries simply would have stopped existing just like they are now. People might know Uzbekistan or Kyrgizstan but how many know where they are and what they are?

As for those immigrants.... there is a reason they left Russia.. that's all I have to say about it.

 The offer to help is at a price some are not willing to pay. The Ukraine for example, does -not- want to be a part of Russia. The lease on the Black Sea port will run out, what will Russia do when it stands to loose that port? 

 Without Russia, those countries would be different, possible better or worse. They are in Central Asia and have large oil and natural gas reserves. One of them has the Russian spaceport in it. I can imagine the fit Russia would pitch if they lost that. You say that Russia doesn't want to be an empire again, yet the world is seing Putin as trying to ressurrect the USSR.

 The immigrants left Russia for several reasons. 1, they wanted to live. 2, they wished to improve their lives. Living under the conditions of enforced servitude. 3, they wished to be free of an oppressive government, whether of the Czars or the USSR.

 Stalin did -wonderous- things, but at an awful cost in shattered human lives. Over all, Stalin's evils overwhelm his hero- status.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:55:52 AM by Zakharra »

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 09:50:25 AM »
I agree that they do not want to be part of Russia, neither do we want them to be part of us but how many help is still going from Russia to those countries.

Without Russia's support to eastern Ukraine and all their mines, their economy would simply collapse. The same goes for the other CIS countries. They don't want to be part of Russia but can't exist without the help we sent them. The only countries that are better off now than they were before are Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and every other country formerly in the USSR, from Ukraine to Kazachstan will crumble down and eventually collapse if Russia is cutting all strings.

It happened in Georgia and see where they ended up.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 09:58:59 AM »
 Their economies would change to suite, connecting more to Europe than to Russia. Russia's help comes with sometroublesome strings attached and Russia is not above using it's economic influence to try and get it's way. The gas pipelines that run through the Ukraine for example. If the Ukraine and/or Europe does something it doesn't like, a 'problem' might develope and the gas flow slows or stops for a time.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 10:08:55 AM »
This gas problem was because Ukraine isn't paying it's bills and was stealing the gas Russia was pumping to Europe. Europe then comes crying to Russia for gas while the problem is Ukraine stealing it. The only logical answer then is to simply close the tabs.

Ukraine is tending towards Europe yes and Georgia is too but how can Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazachstan and all the other CIS countries tend to European economy to help them out?

The only economies they can 'tend to' is the middle east or Russia's. They pick Russia. Now I foresee you bringing up the argument that they don't have anything to choose from and I agree but they need help and we give it to them. But our help isn't free as nothing on this world is. So those 'strings' are at every trade deal at every country.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 12:26:23 PM »
 I agree that monetary aid usually has a string attached by any nation that is just handing it out. Russia's strings seem to have iron chains attached though. To the world, it's as if the Iron curtain is being rebuilt.

 The gas line issue is a questionable one since it is state run. Many think it's more than that. Political in nature. The natural gas is being used as a club.

 The Central Asian nations can look to India or China as well as Russia.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 12:41:12 PM »
You don't pay the bill, we cut you off... how is that any different when it's state owned or privately owned?

I'm curious too for an example of that iron chain that you say is attached to the strings on monetary aid deals from Russia...

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 01:06:13 PM »
 Restricted rights of free speech. Which -is- a real concern by humanitarian groups, many which are libreal, the concetration of power in the government, nationalization of businesses. Given the history of Russia, it makes other nations nervous and suspicious.

 The chains are that the governments Russia deals with, will take a line more in tune with what Russia wants. Belarus is following it, with a lot of Russian money and aid being put into their country.

 According to some news stories I've seen, the Ukraine has paid Russia. The company that they paid it to hadn't paid it to the Russian company. As it stands, the issue seems to have been resolved.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 01:18:30 PM »
 This thread is about Stalin though. The man was literally a monster with what he did to his own people. He did great things, but they were of among the most terrible sort. He's at least, on par with Hitler.

Offline Silk

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 06:42:52 PM »
In a round about way its better that some people like hitler and putin did exist, because it gives humanity the harsh lessons it needs to get its ass in gear.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 08:02:47 PM »
 Perhaps, but the cost to put down someone like Hitler is a very high price. We have to be willing to pay the price to remove a man like Hitler or Stalin though.

Online Oniya

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 08:52:29 PM »
Perhaps, but the cost to put down someone like Hitler is a very high price. We have to be willing to pay the price to remove a man like Hitler or Stalin though.

As the saying goes, 'Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it'.  Hopefully, the lesson will be memorable enough that the price will not have to be paid often.

Offline Schwarzepard

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2009, 08:53:43 PM »
Every time history repeats itself, the price goes up.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 03:58:56 AM »
Stop comparing Putin to Hitler for crying out loud. There are NO similarities what so ever.


People like Hitler, and maybe Stalin according to most of you, existed to murder and to kill.
Putin never killed anybody and is doing good things for his country. Something not many countries can say about their presidents. Call me stubborn or narrow minded but for me Putin is somebody, just like Stalin, who helped Russia from the gutter into something beautiful.

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2009, 07:56:55 AM »

Putin hasn't killed anyone that we know of, but that's another story. Putin is old KGB, and at least to some Western eyes, he's someone to be wary of, as he may be perceived as someone that wants to rehang the Iron Curtain. At the same time I think he's a shrewd and pragmatic man that will listen to reason now that the Oval Office once more has someone that listens to reason. We can only hope Putin and Obama will find some common ground.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2009, 10:40:13 AM »
People like Hitler, and maybe Stalin according to most of you, existed to murder and to kill. Call me stubborn or narrow minded but for me Putin is somebody, just like Stalin, who helped Russia from the gutter into something beautiful.

   ???  Maybe? Stalin was a documented killer on par with Hitler What he did to his nation was an abomination. Killing millions of his own people with his orders. There's no real doubt about that. The USSR was nothing beautiful, but a brutal machine that wanted to put the entire world under the iron thumb of communism.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2009, 11:13:30 AM »
According to you. I know millions of people who still see the USSR as something beautiful, because of the Communism. The fact that most Western countries are capitalistic and decadent to the bone means that most of those countries do not see the true beauty of a Communism.

The US was now trying to plunge the entire planet into war and decadent capitalism. Missile shield here, guantanamo bay there. Katrina victims have been left out for days before the US government did something if anything at all. How many people die of starvation or poor health care in the US daily?

In the USSR, EVERYBODY had food, healthcare, education, etc. That is the true beauty of a communism. If you weren't born in a communist country you wouldn't understand. The USSR was much much more than Stalin alone.

Online Oniya

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2009, 11:33:57 AM »
As an ideal, communism is a very wonderful idea - John Lennon's Imagine was based on the concept, as I recall.  The problem is in implementation, and the fact that it is an economic system, not a form of government.  (A lot of people try to make 'communism' out to be the opposite of 'democracy', which annoys me.) 

The problem comes in when 'need' and 'ability' don't balance out over the grand scale.  For example, when a 'baby boom' goes through the energetic youth stage, ability is high and need is easily balanced out, but when that boom hits the 60+ age range, and becomes unable to produce as well, need increases by several orders of magnitude and may outstrip the younger generations ability.

Part of my father's side of the family came from the USSR (Belarus), and I've heard stories of the bread lines, so I have to argue a bit with the success of everybody having food, but I'll accept the lumps that my own country deserves.  FEMA botched Katrina big time.  Gitmo, in my mind, is on par with the gulags.  'No Child Left Behind' makes me shudder in the way it has been implemented. 

No country or form of government is perfect, and all leaders are human.  We can only hope that our current leaders remember that.

Offline Zakharra

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2009, 12:28:33 PM »
According to you. I know millions of people who still see the USSR as something beautiful, because of the Communism. The fact that most Western countries are capitalistic and decadent to the bone means that most of those countries do not see the true beauty of a Communism.

The US was now trying to plunge the entire planet into war and decadent capitalism. Missile shield here, guantanamo bay there. Katrina victims have been left out for days before the US government did something if anything at all. How many people die of starvation or poor health care in the US daily?

In the USSR, EVERYBODY had food, healthcare, education, etc. That is the true beauty of a communism. If you weren't born in a communist country you wouldn't understand. The USSR was much much more than Stalin alone.

 According to most of Europe and the Western world it was not beautiful. Dissent was put down down by harsh means. Those who disagreed were shipped off to gulags in remote parts of the country. It forced a rigid way of life on people, giving little opportunity for individuals to raise themselves up, to improve their means. The leaders lived very well while the lower classes can and did poorly. How many milions died in famines the government caused? The Ukraine is an example.
 
Capitalism is not an evil in itself. It's an engine that has led the Western world to vast wealth and a decent standard of living, while bringing in comforts that people want. Does it have it's problems? Yes, but it gives the worker incentive to improve his/her means if they want to and have the drive to do so. Property belongs to the person, not to the State. That does not mean we are decadent. The US is not trying to plunge the world into war. That's a misconception and wrong. Are we at war? Yes, but  not with any nation, but an ideal. Which is much harder to fight.

 Also the US/Western world did not invade an ally to keep them from withdrawing from NATO, as Hungary was by the Soviets.

 The missile shield I can see why Russia dislikes since it can be used to neutralize their missiles. /shrug The US has an obligation to protect it's allies, as does Russia. If they cannot overcome it, that is their problem militarily. As it stands, the US does not do first strike nuclear attacks, and never will. No one wants to be the first nation to launch nukes. That action alone would earn the anger of the entire world.

 You paint the USSR as a pleasant place, if so why were there guards on the borders to keep people from leaving? If it was a good place, people would be wanting to move there to live. Not to live in what most of the world saw as an armed prison camp. If communism is so good, why did it fail?  Gitmo.. the detainees there should have been handled better, processed faster. In that I disagree with what Bush did. That could have been handled better, but it's hardly a gulag. The detainees are well fed and  hardly any methods that were employed in a gulag can be considered to be used there.

 Over all, the USSR wasn't a good nation. Strong and powerful yes, but not good. Russia can be one I hope.

 After hurricane Katrina, that was a debacle on the local, state and federal level, with politicians scrambling to look like they were 'Doing Something'. As I understood it, FEMA wasn't even allowed to move in until the state governor asked for federal help. A failure at all levels of government.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 02:06:08 PM by Zakharra »

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2009, 05:20:41 PM »


In the USSR, EVERYBODY had food, healthcare, education, etc. That is the true beauty of a communism. If you weren't born in a communist country you wouldn't understand. The USSR was much much more than Stalin alone.


That's the party tagline, but the way I always heard it, the 'food for everyone' meant you were standing in line for hours and what you got was subsistence level bread and sausage.

And yes a communist system (but not only a communist system), provides for education costs but there is no leeway in there. A failed test means they might push you into a field of their choosing, not yours.


I'm completely open to the fact that that's Western propaganda, but I've never heard anything redeeming about the social services in the old USSR. The fact that a lot more people were trying to slip through the Iron Curtain while getting into Western nations makes a strong case, so long as that's reliable.


A lot of stuff is over the top in the West but we eat what we want and we go to college for the fields we want. Some may call it decadence, I just call it...quality of life.  :-\

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2009, 05:34:25 PM »
quality of life?

Flushing 9 liters of perfectly good drinking water through the toilet, tossing away the crusts of your pizza or the leftovers of other food, taking the car for a 5 minute drive when you can take the bike or walk, going on holiday each year, buying a new tv every two years, having three computers in the house.... to me that's decadence.

The food in the Soviet Union was a problem indeed but in comparison to now, less people lived in poverty than they do now. I'm not saying the USSR was holy lands but for a lot of people who didn't have the means to leave the country, the situation they find themselves in now, are much worse than the situations they were in, during the Soviet era.

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2009, 06:03:21 PM »


Flushing 9 liters of perfectly good drinking water through the toilet, tossing away the crusts of your pizza or the leftovers of other food, taking the car for a 5 minute drive when you can take the bike or walk, going on holiday each year, buying a new tv every two years, having three computers in the house.... to me that's decadence.



You must have missed the part where I said a lot of Western stuff is over the top, but I was talking about the necessities.


For the record, not everyone is on the same scale here in the West. The toilets in my house are set for 1.5 gallons or 5.6 liters, which is a standard that newer facilities are made to here in the States compared to much more wasteful, older models. Are they still able to be better? I'm sure they are, but in modern plumbing systems, some water gets used regardless...if you don't want to do that may as well dig a hole in your backyard and cover it with a shed for those winter mornings when your pee freezes before it hits the ground.

For the record I eat my pizza crust, I'm not among the wasteful bastards that often leave half a slice sitting in the mall food court. What waste food our household does produce, vegetable trimmings, etc. goes into the backyard to compost or feed the local fauna in the area, where either way it goes back into the system somehow.

All my drives are well past five minutes and not practical for a bicycle or a walk, sadly, but we do consolidate our outings to get as much stuff done in one trip as we can.

I don't go on holiday every year, actually, but don't wave you finger at the West if we do. An emerging China has proven every single other country will do exactly what the US does if it gets the means...there's no moral high ground here, it just boils down to can and cannot.


We've got/had TV's in this house that are well past ten years old, and I currently have ONE computer. Should I elect to buy another, it's because I'll have a need for it, not a frivolous purchase.


Decadence, by the way, is a very loose word with a lot of latitude in meaning. People have applied it through various cultural, political, and religious lenses, and often it boils down to simple personal or local perspective.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:56:07 PM by The Overlord »

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Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2009, 08:01:39 PM »
I've managed to agree with both Inkidu and Overlord in the same month. I must be losing my mind.

There are many, many, many accounts of American behaviour and stereotypes in the rest of the world, and they are of course not universal. It takes many parts to make up a whole, and that includes both good parts and bad parts.

Or, I could be mistaken and you could spend your long, lonely days as a Commie cleaning your pistol for whenever the next call comes for a firing squad while getting shitfaced on vodka, which you drink like water. Or maybe instead you spend a lot of time piling your money into your wheelbarrow, packing it full and hoping that you will have enough to buy a loaf of bread. Or maybe you spend your days playing poker and smoking in a factory instead of working, because you know that your wonderful country will pay you regardless of how hard you work.

I'm not even going to address your specifics because a) Overlord already did and b) I believe I've proved my point.

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2009, 03:58:51 AM »
Speaking of stereotypes...

You don't agree with my view of Russia and the USSR and that's fine. It's a free world after all.

Offline Lithos

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2009, 04:27:01 AM »
Or maybe you spend your days playing poker and smoking in a factory instead of working, because you know that your wonderful country will pay you regardless of how hard you work.

This is one of the things in this discussion that has not much to do with original subject, but is something that should be addressed still. In some places, people actually appreciate work itself and working for something, it is not all about money everywhere. Even if such view of work is foreign to your mindset does not mean that it would not be popular somewhere else. Where I am, you will still have your apartment, and you will still get by in your life just fine, even if you did not work at all, yet still people both work hard and try to get rid of being unemployded as quickly as possible. So what according to your view would destroy your work efficiency and economy, works just fine elsewhere. People just are not the same everywhere. Trust me, systems not based entirely on hunt for profit and personal gain can and do work.

Real communism is just as far away dream as real democracy though. Neither will never exist so talk about politics in that sense is meaningless.

As far as Stalin goes, to retain in original subject. He was great figure in soviet history, but he was _not_ a good person. He did some things that made hitler look like schoolboy. The thing is though that while he did those things, he united and strenghtened USSR as well - even if it was with horribly big price in blood. I think it is this unity that people there appreciate, not his character or the things he did cause of his paranoia to people around him.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 04:40:24 AM by Lithos »

Offline consortium11

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2009, 04:40:03 AM »
On the O/T aspect of the nature of work, there are some people who will work for works sake; if they could have a near identical life of complete leisure, they would still go out and do a job. However, I generally believe these are the minority. If you honestly looked at the vast majority of people (myself included to a certain extent) if I could live the live I've become accustomed to without having to work at all, I'd be very tempted to never get a job. Even if I had to give up certain aspects of my lifestyle for complete freedom (in terms of time), it would be a hard decision to return to the rat-race.

On the topic of Stalin, his hands are covered in blood. That said, I dare anyone to take any "great" figure from history and find them free of sin, and the issue only gets worse when it comes to leaders of nations. There are no angels in this life, and when it comes to the murky nature of high diplomacy and ruling a nation those sins are on a much larger scale. Throw in that from appearences the majority of this board come from a Western background and he'll rarely have many "fans"... be it a general dislike of the USSR during that period, the effect of media and indirect propaganda or even just his betryal of "true" communism, Stalin has never been a popular figure over here.

I think what Lithos said is probably the truth: he was a "great" man in terms of history; under his rule the USSR moved fully into the industrial age, dominated WW2 and became one of the most powerful nations in the world for long after his death. Other historical figures have seen their kingdoms/empires fall apart immediately after their death... Stalin never did. That said, millions died because of his paranoia and his show-trials and revisionist history were a war on truth. He was in no way a good man... almost certainly the opposite, but could a good man have done what he did?

Offline The Overlord

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2009, 04:57:08 AM »
This is one of the things in this discussion that has not much to do with original subject, but is something that should be addressed still. In some places, people actually appreciate work itself and working for something, it is not all about money everywhere. Even if such view of work is foreign to your mindset does not mean that it would not be popular somewhere else. Where I am, you will still have your apartment, and you will still get by in your life just fine, even if you did not work at all, yet still people both work hard and try to get rid of being unemployded as quickly as possible.

I guess that makes a solid point on cultural mindsets. Some people live to work, and others work to live, I am definitely in the latter camp. No fracking way I'm going into work unless they're paying me...it's not about the money, it's about what comes with the money. If I didn't have to work and could meet all my finances awesome, I'd be playing video games most of the day and doing my artwork, taking out a significant other on anything from dinner to traveling internationally with her.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet figured out how to do that, so for the time being I'm back to square one. I'll work for you, but you gotta pay my ass.

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Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2009, 06:23:08 AM »
Speaking of stereotypes...

You don't agree with my view of Russia and the USSR and that's fine. It's a free world after all.

I have nothing against Russia, nor against the USSR. I didn't live there, and it broke up well before I was old enough to care about any other countries aside from my own.

But it appears that you don't enjoy having stereotypes flung at you any more than I do, eh?

Online Dashenka

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2009, 08:06:22 AM »
No.. I don't like it when people in a conversation go personal. I never pointed out any specific country or person. You did.



Online Oniya

Re: ...wtf...Stalin
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2009, 08:25:31 AM »
Just as a linguistic note, English sucks when it comes to pronouns.  There is no convenient way to distinguish 'you (personal)', 'you (generic)' or even 'you (plural)'.  Unless the English speaker is Southern, in which case there's y'all.

Just something to consider during international debate.