Project Sea Arghhh! II The World Wide Scientology Protest

[Sabby]

http://seaarrrgh.com/

Amazing. Scientology has a military of sorts... people as young as 12 sign for a 1,000,000,000,000 year term, (are expected to return to serve after death and rebirth) and are beaten, humiliated and otherwise trained in the usual hard-as-nails military fashions, in boot camps. They are billed for all this if they leave, are kept from having children, and if they do, they are either pressured into abortion, or the children are kept in a separate camp and given one meeting with their parents a week.

Any trying to leave are put into work camps, fed beans and rice, and worked like mules until they have made ammends.

A cult with a military and punishment camps... not good.

[Oniya]

I've heard of the punishment routines, but I hadn't seen the military aspect before.

[The Overlord]

Any trying to leave are put into work camps, fed beans and rice, and worked like mules until they have made ammends.

Nobody can 'make' you work like a mule on beans and rice. The only way to deal with refusal to threaten to kill them, but I don't even scientology is whacked out enough to want to be investigated for cold-blooded murder.

[Oniya]

There has actually been at least one case against the CoS for wrongful death.  Lisa McPherson died of a pulmonary embolism during one of the 'Rundown' punishments.  I also found info about an 'Elli Perkins', who died at the hands of her unstable son after failing to get him psychiatric treatment due to the CoS's policies on mental health practices.  No legal action was filed in that case, but it was highly suggested that her murder might have been prevented if she had gotten him professional help instead of relying on vitamins and 'busy work around the house' to tire him out.

[consortium11]

Nobody can 'make' you work like a mule on beans and rice. The only way to deal with refusal to threaten to kill them, but I don't even scientology is whacked out enough to want to be investigated for cold-blooded murder.

Without looking at the actual contract I can't say if it's legally binding or not (at least in the UK... it would take a US lawyer for the appropriate state to get it worked out there), but if it is they could also sue for breach... which could end up being inordinantly expensive.

[Oniya]

They're also banking on the people signing it not to know whether it's legally binding either.  In the US, it's not legal for a minor to enter into a contract - which is why online services and TV ads all say you must be 18 or over to sign up/order.

[Sabby]

Overlord, it says that those who 'do not live up to Church expectations, have gone against church conduct, or seek to leave the church' are sent to camps until they are deemed 'reformed' and remember this is only for Sea Org members, not regular church goers.

[Oniya]

Actually, Scientology has a very harsh view on anyone who leaves the group, whether they are 'regular' church members or not.  There are documented cases of malicious prosecution and attempts at defamation.  Members are strongly encouraged to cut all ties with anyone not in the group, particularly those that speak out against the group.

This is one of the reasons that CoS is on several countries' cult watchlist.  France and Norway are apparently even engaged in legal action on a governmental level against CoS.

[RubySlippers]

Is bad but don't most mainstream churches confirm youngsters in their pre-teens, indoctrinate them and use peer pressure. I think there should be a law no religion could enforce membership on any party under the age of eighteen since I consider this child abuse regardless of the faith.

I'm not talking interference to teaching the faith, involvement in a church not as a member and the like just membership commitments.

[Rhapsody]

This... this post is exactly the reason I've been reading about Scientology all day!  I've been sitting here, rereading about Lisa McPherson and Jeff Jacobson, wondering how the hell I got on the topic since I didn't recall hearing anything about it on the news and celebrity forums I visit.  (Which is usually what triggers my  interest into the insane.) 

Now I know. *shakes a fist*

[Trieste]

I heard about this.

I had been considering joining the protest.

[Sabby]

Do it! I wish I had the luxury :( I live in Rockhampton, Australia. Nothing happens here.

[Trieste]

I don't know. The cause is good but their forums are full of jackasses, which makes me hesitant to join the IRC channel to find out more info. :/

[Nimmy]

IMO, Scientology is just another whacked-out cult that really needs to be taken care of by some government persecuting the leaders. Of course, that may not actually help, but I believe it's the course of action that really should be taken. Peoples' health is at stake, both physical and mental, etc.

[Mathim]

It's hard to believe people that stupid haven't just walked out into the road and gotten killed that way. Why are humans, especially stupid ones, so good at defying the law of Survival of the Fittest?

[The Overlord]

Without looking at the actual contract I can't say if it's legally binding or not (at least in the UK... it would take a US lawyer for the appropriate state to get it worked out there), but if it is they could also sue for breach... which could end up being inordinantly expensive.

Well, if you're dumb enough to join any organization, religious or otherwise, under the legal conditions that they can work you like that...what's the term, you get what what you deserve and deserve what you get?

[Trieste]

*beats Mathim upside the head with the Darwin-wrench*

Natural selection is differential survival and/or reproduction of an organism as a function of fitness. Not survival-of-the-fittest!

*gets out the Darwin-club and brandishes it threateningly*

Well, if you're dumb enough to join any organization, religious or otherwise, under the legal conditions that they can work you like that...what's the term, you get what what you deserve and deserve what you get?

This is the sort of mentality that advocates that women who wear short skirts deserve to be raped. Stop blaming the victim and look at the perpetrators.

[Nimmy]

"Survival of the fittest" died when modern medicine came into the equation. Now, I'm not saying that anyone who  isn't healthy deserves to die because they aren't healthy, but we're starting to push the limits of what the planet can support with our population boom in the past 200 years.

@Trieste: definitely agreed - the stupid people aren't to blame. It's the manipulative leaders who are the ones to be blamed.

[The Overlord]

This is the sort of mentality that advocates that women who wear short skirts deserve to be raped. Stop blaming the victim and look at the perpetrators.

*blinks*

What?


Look, now correct me if I'm wrong, but did these people enter some sort of whacknut legal contract or not?

I'm not condoning what scientology may be doing, based on what I hear of them, I think they're nuttier than a three-layer peanut fudge sundae.

To borrow a quote from the top-

1,000,000,000,000 year term, (are expected to return to serve after death and rebirth)

If mean, that sounds way the hell out there even for a wacko cult, but if it's true then scientology isn't even remotely grounded in reality. And you're screwy too if you sign on for it.

Nutty religions and cults are on the fault of both the organizers and the parishioners. If people stopped paying attention to them, they'd...just go away.

[Mathim]

*beats Mathim upside the head with the Darwin-wrench*

Natural selection is differential survival and/or reproduction of an organism as a function of fitness. Not survival-of-the-fittest!

*gets out the Darwin-club and brandishes it threateningly*

This is the sort of mentality that advocates that women who wear short skirts deserve to be raped. Stop blaming the victim and look at the perpetrators.

*Retaliates with Darwin Pepper Spray*

Then they need to change the name of the Darwin Awards.

[Trieste]

*blinks*

What?


Look, now correct me if I'm wrong, but did these people enter some sort of whacknut legal contract or not?

I'm not condoning what scientology may be doing, based on what I hear of them, I think they're nuttier than a three-layer peanut fudge sundae.

To borrow a quote from the top-

If mean, that sounds way the hell out there even for a wacko cult, but if it's true then scientology isn't even remotely grounded in reality. And you're screwy too if you sign on for it.

Nutty religions and cults are on the fault of both the organizers and the parishioners. If people stopped paying attention to them, they'd...just go away.

Yes, you're wrong. While this may be true for some cult-like religions (the Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty cult-like but largely harmless, for instance), there are others that practice cold, hard indoctrination.

Plus, they prey on the young, the inexperienced, the mentally unstable, the insecure, the desperate, and the easily-manipulable. If you think that Scientology must be on the up-and-up because they have John Travolta and Tom "I love this couch woman" Cruise as patrons, think again.

They isolate you from friends and family and declare open war on those people that try to get you away from the influence of the Church, calling them suppressive persons (or SPs for short). This is classic isolative behavior and while it's not always malicious, it's harmful. They preach against any form of psychiatric care (as made famous again by Mr. Post-Partum Depression Isn't Real Cruise, but which goes much much deeper than that) and they do not allow anyone access to modern mental health care if they can help it - thereby making sure that the only sense of validation their members get is from the Mothership Church.

They further convince you that even if you wanted help, you couldn't get it. Why? Because you signed a contract. Even the police won't help you now, will they? If you sign a legally binding document, they own your ass - or so they want you to believe.

I am not saying that there are completely malicious people in the CS, but they are not on the up and up, and they will ensnare anyone who is willing to take even a sip of their Kool-aid as firmly and as quickly as possible. The public image of the bumbling religion started by a misguided writer of fiction who believe in the second coming of the Mother Aliens and who shriek and run at the mention of the word Xenu ... it portrays them as much more innocuous than they ever have been, and while it's funny, it also undermines any real attempt at reaching the CS's victims.

Blaming the victims for being mentally ill or desperate for approval enough to sign something... not cool.

*Retaliates with Darwin Pepper Spray*

Then they need to change the name of the Darwin Awards.

Go educate yourself.

[Andy]

somehow they remind me of Jehova's witnesses..

[The Overlord]

Yes, you're wrong. While this may be true for some cult-like religions (the Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty cult-like but largely harmless, for instance), there are others that practice cold, hard indoctrination.

Plus, they prey on the young, the inexperienced, the mentally unstable, the insecure, the desperate, and the easily-manipulable. If you think that Scientology must be on the up-and-up because they have John Travolta and Tom "I love this couch woman" Cruise as patrons, think again.

They isolate you from friends and family and declare open war on those people that try to get you away from the influence of the Church, calling them suppressive persons (or SPs for short). This is classic isolative behavior and while it's not always malicious, it's harmful. They preach against any form of psychiatric care (as made famous again by Mr. Post-Partum Depression Isn't Real Cruise, but which goes much much deeper than that) and they do not allow anyone access to modern mental health care if they can help it - thereby making sure that the only sense of validation their members get is from the Mothership Church.

They further convince you that even if you wanted help, you couldn't get it. Why? Because you signed a contract. Even the police won't help you now, will they? If you sign a legally binding document, they own your ass - or so they want you to believe.

I am not saying that there are completely malicious people in the CS, but they are not on the up and up, and they will ensnare anyone who is willing to take even a sip of their Kool-aid as firmly and as quickly as possible. The public image of the bumbling religion started by a misguided writer of fiction who believe in the second coming of the Mother Aliens and who shriek and run at the mention of the word Xenu ... it portrays them as much more innocuous than they ever have been, and while it's funny, it also undermines any real attempt at reaching the CS's victims.

Blaming the victims for being mentally ill or desperate for approval enough to sign something... not cool.

I know what cults are capable of. Years ago one of my aunts moved out west around the Portland area and got into one. My grandparents had a devil of a time getting her out of it.

[Trieste]

I know what cults are capable of. Years ago one of my aunts moved out west around the Portland area and got into one. My grandparents had a devil of a time getting her out of it.

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Serephino]

Yes, you're wrong. While this may be true for some cult-like religions (the Jehovah's Witnesses are pretty cult-like but largely harmless, for instance), there are others that practice cold, hard indoctrination.

Plus, they prey on the young, the inexperienced, the mentally unstable, the insecure, the desperate, and the easily-manipulable. If you think that Scientology must be on the up-and-up because they have John Travolta and Tom "I love this couch woman" Cruise as patrons, think again.

They isolate you from friends and family and declare open war on those people that try to get you away from the influence of the Church, calling them suppressive persons (or SPs for short). This is classic isolative behavior and while it's not always malicious, it's harmful. They preach against any form of psychiatric care (as made famous again by Mr. Post-Partum Depression Isn't Real Cruise, but which goes much much deeper than that) and they do not allow anyone access to modern mental health care if they can help it - thereby making sure that the only sense of validation their members get is from the Mothership Church.

They further convince you that even if you wanted help, you couldn't get it. Why? Because you signed a contract. Even the police won't help you now, will they? If you sign a legally binding document, they own your ass - or so they want you to believe.

I am not saying that there are completely malicious people in the CS, but they are not on the up and up, and they will ensnare anyone who is willing to take even a sip of their Kool-aid as firmly and as quickly as possible. The public image of the bumbling religion started by a misguided writer of fiction who believe in the second coming of the Mother Aliens and who shriek and run at the mention of the word Xenu ... it portrays them as much more innocuous than they ever have been, and while it's funny, it also undermines any real attempt at reaching the CS's victims.

Blaming the victims for being mentally ill or desperate for approval enough to sign something... not cool.

Go educate yourself.

Yes, those that sign the contracts may be nuts, but it's the ones who write the contracts that are to blame.  Cults like this take advantage of needy people.  They lure you in by pretending that they care about you.

Like for instance, through a group I belong to I met this very irritating woman.  She's harmless enough, but in a mixed group I got the Bible shoved down my throat.  The poor woman was verbally and sexually abused a child.  While she annoys the crap out of me and the rest of the group, I feel for her at the same time. 

She, like many people who feel a void in their lives, turned to religion to fill that void.  This particular woman became obsessed with the Catholic church.  I can't for the life of me understand why... but whatever.  When a few of her posts didn't go through to the yahell group she was afraid she'd been kicked out.  She constantly talks about how great the group and its members are.

My point in all of this?  People like this are so needy they're vulnerable.  She has decided that the Catholic church is where she needs to be, and no amount of reasoning or evidence against that will sway her.  So basically all the CoS has to do is find people like this and offer them the validation they so desperately need, and these people will do anything.   

[The Overlord]

This was like the mid-80's IIRC. She met her future husband, my uncle, out there in the midst of it all. I believe he was in the same cult, and in a sense I'm not convinced they entirely left the mindset.

They are in Texas today, and heavily involved in a local Christian church. She's definitely in the Golden Boy Bush camp; can't shake her of the opinion that he was a great president. In fact, as far as she's concerned, Texas has the most right of any state to secede, and if they did she's fine with 'Dubya' as president of Texas.

Needless to say, there's been some very heated arguments via email in the past 12-15 months over the presidential election. The icing on the cake for me was a Hitler-Obama comparison, which she later apologized for and said she was having a 'bad day', but the damage was done.

It prompted retorts from most of the family, and where I used to think she was just blind and needed to pull her head out of the f***ing sand, now I think she's genuinely nuts. I know she's family and we're supposed to be there for each other, but at times I'm embarrassed by her.


If the markedly different theology and politics weren't enough, they are horrible at deciding the most mundane crap, like what restaurant do you want to go eat at this evening. We mark it up to flashbacks from the cult days, when all their decisions were made for them...this is an annoyance factor for others in the extended family.

Few family members have made me so red-faced and wanting to smash something just by communicating by email. Grrr....Overlord angry, cults baddddd. Cults bad... Okay?

[Oniya]

Look, now correct me if I'm wrong, but did these people enter some sort of whacknut legal contract or not?

The thing that got lost here was the fact that the people signing were as young as twelve.  I don't know about you, but at twelve, I was hardly the most worldly-wise person out there, and knew next to nothing about what my rights were.  If someone in authority handed me something to sign, and my parents said I needed to sign it, I would have signed it.  If I was later told that it meant I was required to do X, Y, and Z, all because I signed it, I probably would have believed it.

There's a reason that kids that young aren't allowed to enter into legal contracts.

[The Overlord]

The thing that got lost here was the fact that the people signing were as young as twelve.  I don't know about you, but at twelve, I was hardly the most worldly-wise person out there, and knew next to nothing about what my rights were.  If someone in authority handed me something to sign, and my parents said I needed to sign it, I would have signed it.  If I was later told that it meant I was required to do X, Y, and Z, all because I signed it, I probably would have believed it.

There's a reason that kids that young aren't allowed to enter into legal contracts.

OK, solid point, that did get lost in the course of conversation.

And that makes cults preying on children for signups little better than pedos.

[Oniya]

*nods vigorously*  Right with you on that point.

[Rhapsody]

You want to know what Scientology is capable of?  Go look up Lisa McPherson.  Or Clearwater, Florida.  Or Jeff Jacobson.  Operation Freakout.  Operation Snow White.  Dozens of other names I can't think of at the moment, because it's late. 

The thing that really gets me is this: these people successfully infiltrated the American government... and the IRS turns around and allows them to be a tax-free organization, because of their pseudo-religious bullshit claiming that they're a Church.

[Tachi]

Strange. I see no incentive to join and find it odd that anyone would even consider it.

[Rhapsody]

Let us hope they never find this thread.  For they can and will sue because we're all detractors of the Faith.  *eyeroll*

[Elayne]

I don't know if it's especially germane to the topic, but I saw a pretty funny article from Cracked about Scientology.  They've got a couple of hilarious bashes.

http://www.cracked.com/article_16337_l-ron-hubbards-5-most-impressive-lies-besides-scientology.html

http://www.cracked.com/article_17448_scientologys-5-newest-celebrity-recruits.html

[Lilias]

They've got pretty good odds, too, considering 16-year-olds will believe all sorts of stupid stuff you tell them, including "I'm only gonna put the tip in," "Of course I love you" and "trust me, this is the only way to clear your Thetans. Now flip over."

Priceless!

[RubySlippers]

You want to know what Scientology is capable of?  Go look up Lisa McPherson.  Or Clearwater, Florida.  Or Jeff Jacobson.  Operation Freakout.  Operation Snow White.  Dozens of other names I can't think of at the moment, because it's late. 

The thing that really gets me is this: these people successfully infiltrated the American government... and the IRS turns around and allows them to be a tax-free organization, because of their pseudo-religious bullshit claiming that they're a Church.

The Universal Life Church is said to be the same thing, but the First Amendment in the US Constitution gives religion a wide berth when it comes to government interference. Thankfully since people want seperation of Church and State one can't have a no hands on policy and then turn around and easily dictate what is a good religion or a bad one.

If they are commiting illegal actions then the government could investigate them and act but what is the difference between confirming a child at twelve and what they are doing I consider both abusive but one can be done by legal well known churches and the other Scientologists.

Wh