Why I am an athiest

[Ephiral]

I'm aware it's one or the other, but Opheliac seems to be removing lack of an answer from the equation. Yes, it must boil down to 'there is a cake' or 'there is not a cake', but 'I don't know' is a valid position to hold, especially if you can't open the box.

"I don't know" is something you say to insulate yourself from the consequences of failure, not an accurate statement of your expectations of the world. You might not have strong expectations (my own bet would be near 50%, adjusted for what I am able to discern of the box and your personality), but you expect cake or no-cake, and it's highly unlikely your expectations of those are exactly equal.

[Kythia]

"I don't know" is something you say to insulate yourself from the consequences of failure, not an accurate statement of your expectations of the world.

"I don't know" is a statement with a long pedigree in fairness.  It's a statement that you are without (a) knowledge(gnosis)

a-gnostic.

[Ephiral]

"I don't know" is a statement with a long pedigree in fairness.  It's a statement that you are without (a) knowledge(gnosis)

a-gnostic.

Which would be fair for someone who didn't specifically reject that label, and who was unconcerned with accuracy to reality.

[Qt]

One could be an agnostic and an atheist at the same time, they are not mutually exclusives. I could say "I believe there's not enough evidence to prove god's existence or lack of existence" and then say "I don't believe in god" and the two would not conflict each other.

Also... saying atheism is a religion is like saying, not playing tennis is a sport. It's like saying abstinence is a form of sex.

At the end of the day trying to equate atheism to religion is just another display of the lack of ability to defend religion, because it's attempting to say "Well religion is bad... but hey atheism is a religion as well, so you're just as bad."

[Kythia]

Which would be fair for someone who didn't specifically reject that label, and who was unconcerned with accuracy to reality.

*shrug*  "I specifically reject this label" and "based on my statements, it is not fair to apply this label to me" are two entirely different statements. 

But I have no interest in pursuing this further.  I thought the point was pretty uncontroversial.  As it isn't, I invoke what shall from this day be known as the "Kythia and Ephiral Compact" to put a point to bed for the sake of happiness.

I'm pretty drunk.

[Ephiral]

*shrug*  "I specifically reject this label" and "based on my statements, it is not fair to apply this label to me" are two entirely different statements. 

But I have no interest in pursuing this further.  I thought the point was pretty uncontroversial.  As it isn't, I invoke what shall from this day be known as the "Kythia and Ephiral Compact" to put a point to bed for the sake of happiness.

I'm pretty drunk.

I was unclear - what's unfair is rejecting the label while claiming its benefits. If you reject the position of ignorance, you don't get to claim ignorance as a defense.

I have no particular problem with applying labels where they fit.

[Kythia]

I was unclear - what's unfair is rejecting the label while claiming its benefits. If you reject the position of ignorance, you don't get to claim ignorance as a defense.

I have no particular problem with applying labels where they fit.

Ah, yeah I had misread you there.  I'd taken "That statement would be fair were it not for the fact that..." My bad.

Kythia and Ephiral Compact not invoked, agreement is secured, resistance continues to be futile.

[consortium11]

Um... Is it just me or is this discussion a) going in circles and b) getting a bit hostile?

Welcome to religious discussion threads on E.

[Silk]

So, "I don't buy it" is a coherent set of beliefs regarding a divine being?

About as much as being homeless makes you a homeowner maybe.

[Thesunmaid]

My beliefs went from"Whoa...god is awesome he made an entire world and all the people in it! And his son died for me...that was nice of him..to slowly getting older with wait..why did he create an entire universe for just one planet...to wait why do so many people believe in a different god?...to OK this is sort of hinky, too many unexplained questions which was told I am not supposed to ask just have faith because a book told me to.(which by the way to a voracious reader such as myself which my parents encouraged did not sit right) to OK I am seeing people doing a lot of fucked up things in the name of god,Maybe this is not such a great belief system...to OK this is sort of bull shit and people who believe are idiots...to where I am now...OK so some people believe in god...we now have a pope who seems like a pretty decent guy and can accept people will not follow the church and still be good people. And I don't care much any more about what religion people follow so long as they are not douche-nozzles. Those that are about religion though and direct the nozzle in my religion will get back just as much as they give.

So i went from wide eyed and believing to questioning things but still believing...to not sure any more to wow religious people are stupid (yes i had this phase not proud of it but I will still admit it happened) to OK religions happen so long as it does not hurt anyone worship to your hearts content and call me after you get out of mass,temple,synagogue or wherever you go and we can hang out. I suppose I sort of evolved into it.

Evolution...something I was told by a religious douche-nozzle was made up by evil atheistic scientists to make people lose faith in god...Yes I am serious...she told me that the dinosaur bones and tons of evidence that they existed was all made up to test their faith. Wow.I explained to her yes we shared 98 percent of our DNA with monkeys...and the reason monkeys exist today is because they took a different evolutionary road than humans. And that we also share 33% of our DNA with daffodils...this does not mean I am going to spontaneously start producing my own food from exposure to sun light(although that would be sort of awesome to be able to do that) It just means that maybe I should look at the evidence rather than just go well the book says so..I also questioned her about how the book was written...apparently he told humans to write it. I asked ok how did he call up on the holy hot line? No he spoke through burning shrubbery and gave people visions...Now I am sure in a dry country burning bushes could not be all that rare..and that the way people ate and drank back then combined with heat stroke..I am sure they saw lots of things..Doesn't mean we should follow them to the letter. I had a schizophrenic friend who before he was diagnosed had a delusion that if he got naked every one would get naked and there would be world peace. Nice thought but we could not let him go out and spread the word since its sort of illegal to be naked in public and it was the middle of January in Canada. This does not mean he was a prophet.

So really what I am saying is...we need to stop following a book that really has parts like Deuteronomy and Leviticus and its OK to follow them to the letter and not be called a psycho? If you are good with not following these books good for you. Apparently you are a rational human being who can think for themselves and have faith in your life.But if you are...yikes.

[Iniquitous]

So really what I am saying is...we need to stop following a book that really has parts like Deuteronomy and Leviticus and its OK to follow them to the letter and not be called a psycho? If you are good with not following these books good for you. Apparently you are a rational human being who can think for themselves and have faith in your life.But if you are...yikes.

What gives you the right to tell other people what they should and should not believe in? Honestly asking here. Do you know for absolute fact what is best for every single person on this planet? No? Then you shouldn't make broad sweeping statements like above.

I've met some awesome christians who live their lives as close to the teaching of Jesus as they can. I've met some shitty christians that overlook all of the good teachings and focus on judging everyone not like them. I've met some totally awesome satanists and I've met some who call themselves satanists when they have no clue what that means. I've met atheists that I proudly call friend because they understand the concept of live and let live. I've met atheists that I'd dearly love to cram my shoe down their throat for the attitudes and hate they spew towards anyone who believes in an organized religion.

The point is, you show just as much a judgmental attitude towards people of faith as some of those people of faith show towards your decision to not believe. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Aiden]

I don't know what to classify myself, despite being raised in a Catholic home. Even before I learned about science, I thought religion was bullshit. Why spend my Sundays in school and church! It was really cemented in when I had to study for my first communion. I treated the class as a history lesson, learned the prayers and could recite them. I was actually pretty good on that, but the nuns still smacked my hands when I was caught reading something else (despite knowing the lesson, I read ahead).

Then I started learning about dinosaurs and science, planets and about the first scientist who were jailed/killed etc by the church. I also asked questions, got nothing but told to believe.

I believe there are gods, something of a higher power. But I don't believe in the man written scripture/rules on how to worship them.

The biggest bullshit about all this, I need to pretend to care about all this shit again. A church wedding is very important to my SO. So here we go again.

[Thesunmaid]

 Iniquitous Opheliac did you actually read these two books of the bible? If you want to follow them then you will see GLBT people as abominations..other things that the bible lists as abominations are as follows
touching/eating anything with “impurity”, like dead bodies,  sperm, unclean animals (camels, rabbits, pigs, four footed animals that are not cattle), any sea life without scales or legs (catfish, lobster, shrimp, oysters, clams, mussels etc.), certain birds that eat carrion.(mmm evil sea food...sinfully delicious and morticians are going to hell..as well as gasp! bacon is evil...well it would explain why its so tasty..)
customs associated with the worship of  anything other-than-God idols (hmm...)
any action a person does that is not done in the name of God (which can pretty much be described as a lot of every day things...I am sure they are out there but...who really says to themselves..I am vacumming in the name of Jesus)
atheists(umm yeah)
one that departs from God (anyone who converts or becomes agnostic or atheist?)
those that lie(umm there is this story about a guy with a stone and a glass house...)
people that cause trouble in a community(protesting things like war and such...eeeevil!)
doing things for yourself and not God (marrying someone outside of your religion..standing up for your gay child even if the church says shun them...this...is apparently wrong?)
people that turn from hearing God’s Word (liiiike....athiests?)
sacrificed meat eaten on the third day instead of being burned(umm we have fridges now a days but also left overs tend not to last in my house.)
men having sex with men(love is love people)
any superstitious relic(luckey rabbits foot anyone? Those lucky socks that football player never washes...sort of gross but...evil? really?)
an imperfect animal offering (umm..I kind of like my animals alive thanks.)
anyone who visits taro card or palm readers or who reads horoscopes (dam you Cosmo! you sent me to hell!)
wearing clothes of the opposite sex (pants for women, kilts for men–OUT!)
bringing money earned from prostitution from selling yourself into your home (yes I know some prostitutes and I am not judging them for it, I am assuming that strippers would fall in this category as well.)
remarrying a former spouse (should not have divorced in the first place..eeeevil)
making images or idols (those places who make tourist trinkets of tiki gods and Buddha and such..evil!)
having the idols of certain gods in your possession (the decorative statue of Buddha? Evil!)
prayers not offered in faith(This never happens. Really....right?)
breaking promises(please tell me you have never done this ever..and I will smile and nod)
lending money with interest (so...banks and pretty much any financial institution are so hell bound..hmm..does this mean I don't have to pay my credit cards?)
having sex with a menstruating woman(we started all the evil eating the apple that the talking snake said to...and our uterus's is where we keep our evil apparently?)
things done to gain the popularity with others(high school anyone?)

and things that are forbidden are mixing seeds in fields, trimming hair and beards, interbreeding animals, mixing fabrics in my clothing and  letting disabled people come to the holy place.(yes these are all in the bible)

And you can be killed in the name of god for the following.KILLED...not just glared at and looked down on...Killed

denying God and saying He does not exist ( I had better hide)
getting too close to the Tabernacle when you were not supposed to be there (done this too)
not observing the Sabbath ( I like my pay check and even when I went to church I still had to work unless god offered to pay my rent for me.)
disobeying one’s parents (umm I was a teenager and this is sort of a requirement.)
cursing or hitting one’s parents (didn't do this one I admit but since my dad teaches karate and my brothers were into it sparring I suppose would count as hitting)
sexual intercourse with a woman that has her period (yes done this too)
losing your virginity outside “marriage” (umm yeah 17 did this one)
adultery (have not done this although there's these things called divorces they have now a days so do people really deserve death for this?)
being a false prophet (yeah never really did this)
male homosexual sex ( I lack a penis but I have been with women but again..love is love.)
witchcraft (had a room-mate do this well...sort of.)
worshipping other gods (friends do this,buddists,muslims and pagens)
using God’s name in vain(ooh yes do this one all the time because lets face it saying dagnabbit just does not cut it at times)
bestiality(yeah I love my cats but not this way)
a woman who does not cry out when being raped (seriously?!)


So while some of these are not the best things to be do...really the bible thinks its perfectly OK to kill these people. If you had bothered to read the very first post...which I started this thread..I have Christian friends..I have Muslim friends...also gay and tans friends...I am judging people who think the above is OK. This is messed up beyond all question. I don't like the religious types who use the bible to be bigoted ass holes...and I know lots of atheists who are ass holes about it. Following a book that was written a couple of thousand years ago and follow it to the letter is a bit extreme. Are you going to stone your neighbour because he goes to work on Sundays? Oh lets burn that lady at the stake because she is Buddhist.  People who want to use it to do good...great have at it...but the ones who use those parts"Points up* and yes there are still parts of the world who will actually follow through with these things in this day and age..don't tell me I don't have a good reason to roll my eyes and wonder what is wrong with religions that allow this sort of things to happen in the name of a loving god. I will most enthusiastically be pissy to people who call my Muslim friend a terrorist and my trans lady friend an abomination when they dare to try and use a book to make these wonderful people feel less about themselves.(yes both of these things have happened) Also I admit...I like some of the bible...there are some pretty cool storys there...like angels and demons..some of the saints too.

Also I have a pewter miraculous medal that was my grandmothers that I keep safe..not because its a religious medal..but because it was my grandmothers.She was catholic..and died of cervical cancer because back when she was diagnosed with it a hysterectomy which would have most likely saved her life or at the very least stop it from spreading...was considered "birthcontrol" So could not be done. So apparently the cancer was not birth control but the treatment is?Oh and this happened in 1975..my grandmother was 34..my age when she died after suffering for almost a year and then her heart failed and she went mercifully in her sleep.So yes...some things about religion is to me ridiculous..but the people who quietly and happily live their lives with out shoving it in people faces no..I have no problem with them...the ones who take things too far and want to"save my soul" whether I want it or not are the ones I have a problem with. So don't tell me I judge people because they are religious..I also don't like racists and people who think they can"catch the gay." child molesters..(catholic priests anyone) and people who beat animals. Am i grouping them and being wrong about that as well? Or is there just a real good reason to do all these things? So perhaps you should read the whole thread before you claim that I am just a bigot hating on all religions.I have my reasons. I am sure your a good person who loves your family ,pets and whatever else you hold dear.  So don't look down your nose at me from one post is all I ask.


Aiden congratulations on your engagement and if a church wedding makes your future spouse happy then your a good person for letting them have it. My husband pretty much let me do what I wanted with our wedding...he smiled and said give me a suit and tell me where to stand. I am the only girl in my family so my mom insisted on a wedding with me wearing a big poofy dress.(although she was not happy i wore combat boots under it)where as I would have been happy with a justice of the peace. We do funny things for the ones we love. I am not a fan of the rocky movies, UFC ,or first person shooters but my hubby loves them and I don't complain because it makes him happy. And I am sure he does not understand my playing D&D every week and blasting aqua while I clean.(yes I like Aqua..its upbeat and catchy lol)

[Sabby]

IO, I'm pretty sure you go throughout your day rejecting the opinions of homophobes and racists as wrong. Who are you to say that they are absolutely wrong?

See how it doesn't work when I twist it around?

You can't just go "Oh, well you said this one belief is bad, so you're making sweeping generalizations and don't know everything anyway" whenever you see someone make any kind of judgement. We judge things all the time. Oh, stoning adulterers is a moral punishment? Well that's not good. There, I just judged someones belief as wrong. Would you contest my right to do so?

You can't really get away from this, so lashing out at anyone who passes judgement on a belief is going to have you chasing after everyone who so much as speaks. Instead of pinning them down and demanding on what authority they pass judgement, why not question why they judged it so and attempt to change their mind? It would be a lot more productive.

[Iniquitous]

Despite the fact I am not christian I have read the bible. Which means I have also read how the new testament and Jesus' death on the cross seals a new covenant with mankind and makes the old covenant of the old testament obsolete. The only "rules" from the old testament that should still be followed is the ten commandments.

That means your rant is pointless and you didn't research what you are judging people on.

And please do not ever say I believe someone of a different sexual persuasion should die. I take extreme offense to that since I most assuredly do not wish my cousin or my daughter dead.

[Thesunmaid]

never mind...

[Sabby]

That was directed at IO Sun, you've done no such thing.

[Thesunmaid]

Smiles and offers cupcakes and hugs to sabby and anyone else who would like them...my mom made them and they are orgasmic.I am so going to need bigger pants if she keeps baking.

[Iniquitous]

Let's reverse this.

I despise all atheist because there are some who are absolute assholes about what they believe. Doesn't matter that there are some out there that are not like that. They should not be allowed to believe how they want. Everything they get their beliefs from should be removed. Banned. Outlawed. I get so pissed when they challenge what I believe!  I deliberately insult their beliefs the moment they even try to talk to me about them.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? I mean - you surely aren't one of those judgmental assholes who mocks and ridicules those of religious beliefs right?  You don't demand they be deprived of something important to them right?

It's easy to think you are in the right until you step to the other side and see how it looks to others.

[Sabby]

Ophelia, just... no. Sorry, but I simply won't engage you while you're abusing Strawmen like this.

[Thesunmaid]

Ok this started out with me being upset that I politely declined someone offering to help me accept Jesus into my heart and he went off on me....and now its just degenerated into a snipe fest and to anyone who has read this...I posted a former post in anger and I was wrong to do so..But...yes I have my reasons and they are mine...I am going to stop and just focus on the good. I am sick of negative and angry. We have a new and awesome pope...he seems like a genuinely good man..and while it will not drag me back to church...they are turning things around and I am happy to see this..I am not trying to mock anyone's beliefs...this was sharing my own..apparently this was a mistake and next time I have an opinion about anything religious I will simply not bother.E is a wonderful place and if I made anyone feel badly.. Sorry to have bothered or insulted anyone...I started this as a way to get it off my chest. Maybe show a few people that there's nothing wrong with being different from others religiously..Sorry but I just don't have the time or patience to keep up with this any more.

[Valthazar]

For what it's worth, I actually just got back home from a church event (I'm not Christian, but I volunteer there), and we were organizing a vendor sale to raise money for charity.  A lot of my friends who are Christian are part of the church for mostly the sense of community and purpose.  That's also the main reason I like to help them out.  They respect me for who I am, largely because I respect them for who they are.

I think if you look outside of politics, and the religious talking heads, this animosity really isn't common.

[Ephiral]

Despite the fact I am not christian I have read the bible. Which means I have also read how the new testament and Jesus' death on the cross seals a new covenant with mankind and makes the old covenant of the old testament obsolete. The only "rules" from the old testament that should still be followed is the ten commandments.

That means your rant is pointless and you didn't research what you are judging people on.

EDIT: On second thought, my tone was a bit harsh here. I apologise.

That may be as a technical matter, but in practical terms, the Levitical Holiness Code is still a huge problem.
(Edit: Fixed wording issue.)

Are there good Christians? Oh, hell yes. Does the arc of the Bible, taken as a whole, bend toward justice and love? Oh, hell yes. Are the specific books cited still a huge problem and worthy of rejection and condemnation? Oh, hell yes.

Let's reverse this.

I despise all atheist

Stop. Stop right there. Exactly what are you reversing when you say this? Because, y'know, nobody has said this here about any group of believers. This is a ridiculously dickish strawman.

[Oniya]

Y'know, y'all have driven the original poster out of the thread?

[Kythia]

Ok this started out with me being upset that I politely declined someone offering to help me accept Jesus into my heart and he went off on me

I suspect part of the problem, then, is that this went in PROC not B&U.  There is perhaps more of an expectation that things are offered for discussion here than there, and obviously religion is a contentious issue.  Last time you posted a similar story here in PROC this exact thing happened as well, that may have also led to people thinking this was more than just an innocent discussion of you being upset.