Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran

Started by Serephino, September 08, 2010, 09:00:10 AM

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Will

Their fire is only going to be put out by stabilizing the region.  That can only be done by providing them with and maintaining infrastructure.  Once people have a chance at a stable life, they won't walk away from it to go help Al Qaeda. 

There is an ocean of propaganda for the terrorists to pull from; this is just pissing in an ocean.  It means nothing whatsoever, and it will not make things any more difficult than they would have been already.  Do you really believe that this is a major enough situation to warrant giving up one of the most basic freedoms of our country?
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

RubySlippers

There is a glimmer of hope since he is buring books not paper that is inkless the firedepartment considers this a case of dealing with buring a hazardess material they could go in and stop it unless they have a permit in this case. So they could act.

HockeyGod

Quote from: Trieste on September 08, 2010, 07:48:47 PM
I didn't say they were, Brandon. I was pointing out that since this guy is not Catholic, the Vatican has really nothing to do with the man and should butt out.

I don't think that the power of the Vatican should be understated. The Pope can influence many Christians beyond Roman Catholics. In addition he should (regardless of past acrimony) stand for freedom of religion and abolishing any form of persecution. Lastly, the sheer number of Catholics that could be swayed by this pronouncement is rather amazing if you think about it.

I find that this man has the right to freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean it's right to do it.

I think the press is giving it more attention in lieu of the fact that Muslim extremists will undoubtedly react to this. It's a little different for Christian extremists. I mean look - this guy's a Christian extremist and what's he doing? Speeching...er...speaking. He's not killing people. The retribution for his actions I fear will be disproportionate.

I also find it all odd. I mean the sensitivity around this act. Is it abhorrent? Yes. It's just plain dumb and disrespectful. However, people have burned Bibles and Torahs and have not had this type of media hype. I'm just perplexed.

Jude

If we compromise our values on Freedom of Speech because of the intimidation of potential violence, then the terrorists have succeeded in making us a step closer to being like them (whether that is their intention or not).  I think this guy is an idiot, but I fully support his right to do this.  It's important that we voice disapproval for his actions as a nation then stop paying attention to them.

HockeyGod

Quote from: Jude on September 08, 2010, 09:10:01 PM
If we compromise our values on Freedom of Speech because of the intimidation of potential violence, then the terrorists have succeeded in making us a step closer to being like them (whether that is their intention or not).  I think this guy is an idiot, but I fully support his right to do this.  It's important that we voice disapproval for his actions as a nation then stop paying attention to them.

Most of the voices arguing against this are NOT due to intimidation of potential violence but because it is inappropriate to disrespect a religion.

Will

Quote from: alxnjsh on September 08, 2010, 09:11:43 PM
Most of the voices arguing against this are NOT due to intimidation of potential violence but because it is inappropriate to disrespect a religion.

That doesn't seem to be the case in this thread.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Noelle

Quote from: Kaizen on September 08, 2010, 12:49:40 PM
Does anyone else see whats eff'd up about this country?  It's okay to burn an American flag, but strike a match near a Quaran... 

I don't like the implication of this sentence. It sounds to me like the same attitude people take when talking about the Danish cartoon a few years back...The whole "why does Islam get special treatment" kind of thing really irks me. If that wasn't your intent, then disregard this, but the tone just kind of made me think of it.

Anyway, it's actually really not that "okay" to burn an American flag, but we give less attention to it because it's kind of lost its power (at least in my opinion) and the shock factor is practically nil. And, well, America isn't a religion. If someone build a burn pile out of Bibles and set it on fire spouting fringe lunacy, you know there'd be a shitstorm that followed as well. Besides, burning the flag is kind of an "old" concept to express discontent. Burning a holy book is still taboo, though I bet if you had holy books burning even half as often as flags go up in flames, that, too, would lose its strength and message.

Quote from: alxnjsh on September 08, 2010, 09:11:43 PM
Most of the voices arguing against this are NOT due to intimidation of potential violence but because it is inappropriate to disrespect a religion.

I'm not sure that it's ever appropriate to disrespect something :]


Truthfully, I find this whole thing to be incredibly sad and shameful, though I do find it ironic that by staging this burning, they're probably indirectly supporting the people who print copies of the Qur'an...Because something tells me these people don't know any Muslims -- and if they did, probably wouldn't be able to convince any of them to give up their copy of the book for this cause, heh.

Oniya

Actually, it's not only 'okay' to burn the American flag, it is actually one of the approved methods of disposing of one that is no longer in respectable shape to be flown.  [US Flag Code. TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8(k).]
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Wolfy

The man said that Non-Extremist Muslims should be on his side.

Which means the Extremist Muslims are categorized as any that oppose him.

...F*** this guy. F*** him and his "The south will rise again" Mustache.

Noelle

Quote from: Oniya on September 09, 2010, 01:58:54 AM
Actually, it's not only 'okay' to burn the American flag, it is actually one of the approved methods of disposing of one that is no longer in respectable shape to be flown.  [US Flag Code. TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8(k).]

:P Well, yes, that's in terms of treating the flag respectfully when getting rid of it. Contextually to the situation, burning a flag in protest isn't really "okay" (as evidenced by years of attempts to ban it despite free speech), but it doesn't have the same power it used to, if you ask me.

Brandon

Quote from: Noelle on September 09, 2010, 02:16:31 AM
:P Well, yes, that's in terms of treating the flag respectfully when getting rid of it. Contextually to the situation, burning a flag in protest isn't really "okay" (as evidenced by years of attempts to ban it despite free speech), but it doesn't have the same power it used to, if you ask me.

I agree with you, the thing about shock and awe is once its being done every day it no longer becomes special (Im exaggerating of course).

Beyond that people generally just are not very patriotic anymore. I think thats more due to lack of exposure to other cultures though, Im certainly more patriotic because Ive seen humanity at what I believe is its worst and best. America isnt perfect but it could be a heck of a lot worse
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Callie Del Noire

Sigh.. why is it the media pays attention to the idiots like this when they are south of the mason/dixon line?  I'm getting tired of being compared to these fools because of my accent.

Jaybee

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on September 09, 2010, 02:28:29 AM
Sigh.. why is it the media pays attention to the idiots like this when they are south of the mason/dixon line?  I'm getting tired of being compared to these fools because of my accent.

Don't worry, I'm not even American and I've met tons of quite intelligent people from the South.  I suspect the fools include those making the comparison and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Jaybee on September 09, 2010, 03:09:34 AM
Don't worry, I'm not even American and I've met tons of quite intelligent people from the South.  I suspect the fools include those making the comparison and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

I don't know..growing up in Ireland for 2 1/2 years in the 80s a lot of folks in the Republic seemed to think because I was white and southern I had a hood and robe (for the Klan) in my closet somewhere..and some folks in Spain when I was based there seemed to act the same way.

Jaybee

#39
Quote from: Callie Del Noire on September 09, 2010, 03:14:31 AM
I don't know..growing up in Ireland for 2 1/2 years in the 80s a lot of folks in the Republic seemed to think because I was white and southern I had a hood and robe (for the Klan) in my closet somewhere..and some folks in Spain when I was based there seemed to act the same way.

Ahhh, now I didn't say that none of the people making the comparisions were non-Americans, did I?  :)

Lucky you for living in Spain for a time.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Jaybee on September 09, 2010, 03:35:43 AM
Ahhh, now I didn't say that none of the people making the comparisions were non-Americans, did I?  :)

Lucky you for living in Spain for a time.

What can I say? 2 years in Rota Spain was the bomb!

Jaybee


Callie Del Noire


Oniya

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on September 09, 2010, 03:14:31 AM
I don't know..growing up in Ireland for 2 1/2 years in the 80s a lot of folks in the Republic seemed to think because I was white and southern I had a hood and robe (for the Klan) in my closet somewhere..and some folks in Spain when I was based there seemed to act the same way.

When I went overseas for a 'month abroad' class, I brought my 'chameleon accent' into play.  People were sure I was from out of town, but I never let on how far out of town it was.  (Thank you, PBS, for airing all those British shows.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Brandon

#44
A new development

Pastor nixes Quran-burning, claims NYC mosque deal

QuoteGAINESVILLE, Fla. – The anti-Muslim leader of a tiny Florida church backed off his threat to burn the Quran, defusing an international firestorm Thursday after he said he was promised that a planned Islamic center and mosque would be moved away from New York's ground zero. The imam planning the center, however, quickly denied such a deal.

The Rev. Terry Jones had been under intense pressure to abandon his plan to burn the Quran on Saturday, the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. President Barack Obama urged him to listen to "those better angels" and give up his "stunt," saying it would endanger U.S. troops and give Islamic terrorists a recruiting tool. Defense Secretary Robert Gates took the extraordinary step of calling Jones personally.

Standing outside his 50-member Pentecostal church, the Dove Outreach Center, alongside Imam Muhammad Musri, the president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida, Jones said he relented when Musri assured him that the New York mosque will be moved.

Jones had never invoked the mosque controversy as a reason for his planned protest. He cited his belief that the Quran is evil because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.

But he said Thursday that that he prayed about the decision and concluded that if the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning.

"We are, of course, now against any other group burning Qurans," Jones said. "We would right now ask no one to burn Qurans. We are absolutely strong on that. It is not the time to do it."

Musri thanked Jones and his church members "for making the decision today to defuse the situation and bring to a positive end what has become the world over a spectacle that no one would benefit from except extremists and terrorists" who would use it to recruit future radicals.

After the news conference, however, Musri told The Associated Press there is no deal to move the mosque. He said there was only an agreement for him and Jones to travel to New York and meet Saturday with the imam overseeing plans to build a mosque near ground zero.

"I told the pastor that I personally believe the mosque should not be there, and I will do everything in my power to make sure it is moved," Musri said. "But there is not any offer from there (New York) that it will be moved. All we have agreed to is a meeting, and I think we would all like to see a peaceful resolution."

In New York, the leader of the Islamic center project, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, said he was surprised by Jones' announcement.

"I am glad that Pastor Jones has decided not to burn any Qurans. However, I have not spoken to Pastor Jones or Imam Musri," Rauf said in a statement. "We are not going to toy with our religion or any other. Nor are we going to barter. We are here to extend our hands to build peace and harmony."

Jones later insisted that he had struck a deal, without suggesting that he would go back to his Quran-burning plan in light of the imams' denials. He said Musri told him that officials would guarantee that the mosque would be moved.

"We are canceling the event because we have agreed, I take him at his word, he has agreed to move the Ground Zero mosque," Jones said. "I verified that three or four times with witnesses. I trust that man who gave me that. I believe he is a man of integrity, a man of his word, I do not believe that he lied to me."

Jones said that if the mosque is not moved, "then I think Islam is a very poor example of religion. I think that would be very pitiful. I do not expect that."

His decision was made after a firestorm of criticism from leaders around the world. The pope and several other Christian leaders were among those urging him to reconsider his plans, which generated a wave of anger across the Muslim world. In Afghanistan, hundreds of Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.

Obama told ABC's "Good Morning America" in an interview aired Thursday that Jones' plan "is completely contrary to our values as Americans."

"And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform," Obama said.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell confirmed that Gates called Jones about 4 p.m. EST Thursday — shortly before the pastor's announcement. During the "very brief" call, Gates expressed "his grave concern that going forward with this Quran burning would put the lives of our forces at risk, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan," Morrell said.

Morrell said earlier that the decision to issue a personal appeal was not easy because it could provoke other extremists "who, all they want, is a call from so-and-so." After Gates' call to Jones, Morrell said the secretary's "fundamental baseline attitude about this is that if that phone call could save the life of one man or woman in uniform it was a call worth placing."

The cancellation was welcomed in Gainesville, a city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city had mobilized to plan inclusive events, including Quran readings at services, as a counterpoint to Jones' protest.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

The pastor was not the only person to inject confusion into the debate over the New York mosque, which is planned to go up two blocks north of the trade center site. Donald Trump, who made a fortune in real estate, offered Thursday to buy out a major investor in the real estate partnership that controls the site where the 13-story Islamic center would be built.

Opponents argue it is insensitive to families and memories of Sept. 11 victims to build a mosque so close to where Islamic extremists flew planes into the World Trade Center and killed nearly 2,800 people. Proponents support the project as a reflection of religious freedom and diversity and say hatred of Muslims is fueling the opposition.

In a letter released Thursday by Trump's publicist, Trump told Hisham Elzanaty that he would buy his stake in one of the two lower Manhattan buildings involved in the project for 25 percent more than whatever he paid — if the mosque is moved at least five blocks farther away from the trade center site.

"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse," the letter said.

Elzanaty's response: No sale.

"This is just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight," said his lawyer, Wolodymyr Starosolsky.

He added that the offer's lack of seriousness is evident in the price.

The group collectively paid $4.8 million for the building Trump offered to buy. The other is being leased.

Starosolsky said the real estate partnership had already received two offers in the ballpark of $20 million.

"He knows what the value of the building is. If he were really interested in buying the building, he would have come forward with at least $20 million," Starosolsky said.

Starosolsky added that Elzanaty remains committed to the idea of having a mosque built on at least part of the property.

It's unclear how much control Elzanaty has over the property, which is owned by an eight-member investment group led by El-Gamal's real estate company, Soho Properties.

El-Gamal said Soho Properties controls the site, but didn't elaborate. His spokesman said he couldn't answer questions about the investment team or ownership issues.

In a pair of interviews with the AP this week, Elzanaty said he had invested in the site with an intention of making a profit and was willing to half the land for private development, and maybe all of it if a Muslim group doesn't come forward with enough money to build the mosque.

___

Associated Press Writers David B. Caruso in New York, Anne Flaherty in Washington and AP Legal Affairs Writer Curt Anderson in Miami contributed to this report.

Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Oniya

I want to invoke the spirit of Henry Jones, Sr., father of Henry 'Indiana' Jones, Jr., against this man, in relation to burning books.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Noelle

Wow, how generous of him. He's not giving up burning the Qur'an because it's disrespectful and because he wants to make peace, but because they're moving the mosque community center. Donald Trump offering to buy the place is just a joke. I don't think I can sigh enough to express my exasperation. If I can say so, this has turned into a veritable circus-style clusterfuck...Buuuuuut, I will concede that at least they're not planning to hold an organized burning anymore, that much is a positive thing regardless of the guy's reason for canceling it. I'm sure there will still be individual groups who think it's a great idea, but they likely will not be publicized.

Serephino

I've changed my mind.  He's not an idiot; he's completely psychotic.  I guess it's good he isn't going to do it, but the complete 180 on what's coming out of his mouth just....  I don't even know what to say to that. 

Trieste

So he's trying to blackmail the NYC imam, essentially...

Brandon

Its an interesting turn of events, the Imam causes major controversy and then the Priest does. In both cases the controversy is legal but insensitive. As controversy mounts on both subjects the Priest makes the move to end both controversies together.
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play