Florida Pastor want to burn the Quran

Started by Serephino, September 08, 2010, 09:00:10 AM

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Serephino

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100907/ap_on_re_us/quran_burning

Yay, more idiots! *rolls eyes*  What scares me is that these people breed.  Seriously, what is burning a book going to do besides piss a few people off? 

I honestly don't think one incident of holy book burning will stir things up in Iraq more.  Though the article says they're being told not to because it might, and that makes them even more stupid because then they're knowingly risking the lives of the soldiers that are still over there in the name of Patriotism.  *headdesk*

And personally, I think the whole Christians vs. Muslims vs. Jews is stupid to begin with.  They all claim to be descended from Abraham, so they're all brothers and sisters.  Why fight? 

Sabby


Nyarly

Quote from: Sabby on September 08, 2010, 09:27:36 AM
Because humans are short sighted and believe their own excuses.
Probably the truest statement I've heard around this board.

Hemingway

I'm against burning any book, out of respect for the written word, but I would happily show up to this guy's Qur'an burning with a stack of bibles and setting them on fire right on his lawn. They're all religions of the devil as far as I'm concerned.

Jaybee

As a Christian, I find the greatest tradegy is this; extremists like this moron are turning more people AWAY from Christ.  I think he needs to go out and actually TALK to a few moslems.

I find extremes of antisocial behaviour distasteful regardless of whatever religion is used as an excuse for them, but it's particularly galling when my own faith is misappropriated so, which is properly one of love.

Now, we live in society of freedoms; is it his freedom of action to burn the qu'aran?  Yep.  Is it my freedom of expression to call him foolish for doing so?  Yes again.

Serephino


RubySlippers

The media is the problem they could have ignored this and made it a minor bite on Associated Press and in tabloids but they are giving his act all the publicity they couldn't get otherwise - free.

So who is the idiot him for doing this or the media for giving him all the free hype?

TheLegionary

One thing that perplexes me is why the pastor does not move to Afheganistan to convert Muslims into Chrystians?

Will

Quote from: RubySlippers on September 08, 2010, 11:41:36 AM
The media is the problem they could have ignored this and made it a minor bite on Associated Press and in tabloids but they are giving his act all the publicity they couldn't get otherwise - free.

So who is the idiot him for doing this or the media for giving him all the free hype?

Or the consumers who make it financially worthwhile for the media to cover it?  :P
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Scott

Quote from: TheLegionary on September 08, 2010, 12:16:04 PM
One thing that perplexes me is why the pastor does not move to Afheganistan to convert Muslims into Chrystians?

He's like PETA,

It's much easier to throw blood on a supermodel for wearing fur, than is is to throw blood on a biker gang for wearing leather.

Trieste

Saw this on the news tonight and now it's being posted here.

Why, why are we giving this guy attention? This is not news, it's bigotry and it needs to not get nationwide press.

sleepingferret

Quote from: Trieste on September 08, 2010, 05:56:43 PM
Saw this on the news tonight and now it's being posted here.

Why, why are we giving this guy attention? This is not news, it's bigotry and it needs to not get nationwide press.

It already got nationwide press, which is the problem.  Whether he actually burns the book(s) isn't really the issue. (Although I find it disrespectful to be burning a religious book)

The mere fact that this issue got press coverage already put lives in danger, which is what is the real tragedy and should be the focus of people's primary outrage.  One single person, basically just stepped up and said come on Bin Laden let's see you come over here and blow something else up on 9/11 (or see how many of our troops you can kill over in Afghanistan or Irag).  A simple pastor, basically and probably unknowingly basically issued a direct challenge to enemies of not just the United States; but to innocent people everywhere.

Trieste

People are responsible for their own actions, and this man is not responsible for others' actions any more than flag-burners can be held responsible for Gitmo. His freedom of speech and religion gives him the right to burn whatever the hell he wants so long as he makes sure he's got burn permits and whatnot.

But they don't have to stage a news crew when he does it.

Brandon

#13
There are a ton of high standing government officials in the US who have condemned it and a few international powers. Even other christian groups like the Vatican have made statements against the burning of any holy book

If you like check out the list

QuoteIt's increasingly looking as though the only spiritual or political figure who will not denounce Florida pastor Terry Jones' plan to commemorate Sept. 11 by burning copies of the Quran is Jones himself. Wednesday brings the news that even the church Jones founded in Germany in the 1980s  is condemning the upcoming Quran-burning at his small place of worship in Gainesville, Fla.

"We are surprised and shocked at the extreme radicalism being displayed [by Jones] right now on this issue," Stephan Baar of the Christian Community of Cologne told the Associated Press. The 60-member church kicked out Jones in 2008. Jones' estranged daughter says the eviction arose from her father's reported penchant for dipping into the church's till to pay his own expenses.

Jones' wish to burn hundreds of copies of the Islamic holy book has drawn a wide chorus of protests. Gen. David Petraeus said on Monday the action could hurt U.S. troops, while hundreds of Afghans protested in Kabul and burned Jones in effigy. The Gainesville Fire Department has denied Jones a permit for the event -- but the pastor says he plans to go ahead with it anyway.

Indeed, so many high-profile people have spoken out against the plan that they may now outnumber the fringe church's 50-member congregation, raising the question of whether the condemnations are magnifying the cause of a very small group of extremists.

Here's a partial list of people who have condemned the planned bonfire:

    * "It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort," top commander in Afghanistan Gen. David Petraeus told the media. "It is precisely the kind of action the Taliban uses and could cause significant problems.

    * As "an act of patriotism," the media should not cover the burning, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said. She also said, "It's regrettable that a pastor in Gainesville, Florida, with a church of no more than 50 people can make this outrageous and distressful, disgraceful plan, and get the world's attention":

    * The terrorist attacks of 9/11, says the Vatican, "cannot be counteracted by an outrageous and grave gesture against a book considered sacred by a religious community."

    * Attorney General Eric Holder called the plan "idiotic and dangerous."
    * Presumed presidential candidate Mitt Romney told Politico
      "Burning the Quran is wrong on every level. It puts troops in danger, and it violates a founding principle of our republic."

[Photos: Quran-burning debate]

    * "I do not think well of the idea of burning anybody's Koran, Bible, Book of Mormon or anything else," Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour told reporters. "I don't think there is any excuse for it. I don't think it's a good idea."

    * "Any type of activity like that that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Tuesday.

    * "I appeal to people who are planning to burn the Quran to reconsider and drop their plans because they are inconsistent with American values and, as General Petraeus has warned, threatening to America's military," Connecticut Sen. Joe Lieberman said in a statement.

[Related: Who is Terry Jones?]

    * House Minority Leader John Boehner spoke out against the event, comparing it to the planned Islamic center near Ground Zero. "Well, listen, I just think it's not wise to do this in the face of what our country represents. ... Just because you have the right to do something in America, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."

    * New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg called it "boneheaded and wrong" but said the protesters are protected by the First Amendment. "He has a right to do it," he said.

    * Actress Angelina Jolie spoke out against the plan while visiting Pakistan to raise awareness about the devastating floods. "I have hardly the words that somebody would do that to somebody's religious book," she said:

We are all Americans in this country and that includes Muslim Americans. If we dont stand up for our aquantences and business partners, friends and family, brothers and sisters now, possibly when they need us to the most, why should they stand up for us in the future? American's need to make it a point to show idiots like this guy that this kind of thing isnt ok. It should not be tolerated for any reason, I dont care if its the Bible, the Quran, or the Kama Sutra. While we can not stop him, we can sure as hell make sure that we say this kind of behavoir is morally wrong

Edit: Was I the only one to notice that he mispelled Quran on his billboard?
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

sleepingferret

Quote from: Trieste on September 08, 2010, 07:17:36 PM
People are responsible for their own actions, and this man is not responsible for others' actions any more than flag-burners can be held responsible for Gitmo. His freedom of speech and religion gives him the right to burn whatever the hell he wants so long as he makes sure he's got burn permits and whatnot.

People are responsible for their own actions.  And yes he does the right to burn whatever he wants, same as you or I.  And quite frankly if I had enough justification to protest the government, I'd burn a few flags to make a statement.

But again I think this is more about the current state of affairs worldwide than simple beliefs of burning "symbols" either religious or political is right or wrong; even in protest.  This may not be World War II (and we're not after Hitler and the Nazis), but for all intents and purposes the "good" people of the world are at war (with terrorism).  Thus, in order to protect the very freedoms we hold dear to our hearts, we sometimes have to sacrifice some of those freedoms to protect not only ourselves, but the soldiers who are fighting to protect our way of life.

Trieste

Godwin's law says you lose. Ahem.  ::)

This church is nondenominational. The Vatican has no place telling them what to do.

This man is not, as far as I could tell, on active duty. The military has no place telling him what to do.

This man is following a tenet of his religion, hateful as it is. The government has no place telling him what to do.

He has the constitutional right to be doing what he is doing. I don't like it. I don't condone it. But I wish the media wouldn't promote it, also. However, if he's going to get so much attention, the patriotic thing would be to form a huge circle around the bonfire, link hands, and start singing in Arabic.

Will

Quote from: sleepingferret on September 08, 2010, 07:29:01 PM
People are responsible for their own actions.  And yes he does the right to burn whatever he wants, same as you or I.  And quite frankly if I had enough justification to protest the government, I'd burn a few flags to make a statement.

But again I think this is more about the current state of affairs worldwide than simple beliefs of burning "symbols" either religious or political is right or wrong; even in protest.  This may not be World War II (and we're not after Hitler and the Nazis), but for all intents and purposes the "good" people of the world are at war (with terrorism).  Thus, in order to protect the very freedoms we hold dear to our hearts, we sometimes have to sacrifice some of those freedoms to protect not only ourselves, but the soldiers who are fighting to protect our way of life.

I cannot bring myself to agree with this.  Even if I could, I wouldn't say this is a situation where it applies.  Wiretapping, detaining suspected terrorists, these things are arguably necessary in a wartime situation.  But curbing someone's freedom of speech, simply because it might offend someone?  That is ludicrous, and if it ever happened, I would be on my way out of the country post-haste.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

sleepingferret

It isn't about being offense or not.  It's about what the implications and reactions of the terrorists like Bin Laden (who claim to be acting in accordance with the tenants of Islam) will be.  It's about how many lives could possibly be at stake (or already at stake, since this had already hit the media...even though the event hasn't happened yet).  The mere thought of such a thing may be enough to anger the wrong person.

Brandon

I dont recall saying they were catholic Trieste. I was pointing out that even people with similar beliefs think he's an idiot. Besides the Vatican is a large member in international politics and they condemn any action that is  morally wrong from their point of view.

Although I will agree, we should go over and form a circle around his bonfire, preventing him from burning anything. While the government cant step in there is nothing stopping the average American from doing anything in this situation and facing the consequences for it later.

Another thought is, I read somewhere that he didnt get a permit for his bonfire yet. Did that change?

Also, and its hard to believe Im about to say this, but I 100% agree with Will.

Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Trieste

Quote from: sleepingferret on September 08, 2010, 07:43:00 PM
It isn't about being offense or not.  It's about what the implications and reactions of the terrorists like Bin Laden (who claim to be acting in accordance with the tenants of Islam) will be.  It's about how many lives could possibly be at stake (or already at stake, since this had already hit the media...even though the event hasn't happened yet).  The mere thought of such a thing may be enough to anger the wrong person.

But there are dozens of 'wrong people', and not all of them are Islamic. Again, these 'wrong people' (who are essentially alarmist shadow-men as far as I'm concerned) are responsible for their own actions.

Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2010, 07:45:56 PM
I dont recall saying they were catholic Trieste. I was pointing out that even people with similar beliefs think he's an idiot. Besides the Vatican is a large member in international politics and they condemn any action that is  morally wrong from their point of view.

I didn't say they were, Brandon. I was pointing out that since this guy is not Catholic, the Vatican has really nothing to do with the man and should butt out.

Brandon

Quote from: Trieste on September 08, 2010, 07:48:47 PM
I didn't say they were, Brandon. I was pointing out that since this guy is not Catholic, the Vatican has really nothing to do with the man and should butt out.

Thats fine, we can disagree.
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Serephino

I agree that it probably wouldn't be such a huge deal if it hadn't hit the media.  No one but his neighbors would have known, and there would be no one to anger.

But unfortunately the whole world knows now.  I got the article in my email, and then saw it on the Today show.  And even if people are responsible for their own actions, if all this press causes someone to do something it's still on this moron's shoulders at least partially because it would be a reaction to him.  He is starting the chain of events.

Will

#22
Quote from: sleepingferret on September 08, 2010, 07:43:00 PM
It isn't about being offense or not.  It's about what the implications and reactions of the terrorists like Bin Laden (who claim to be acting in accordance with the tenants of Islam) will be.  It's about how many lives could possibly be at stake (or already at stake, since this had already hit the media...even though the event hasn't happened yet).  The mere thought of such a thing may be enough to anger the wrong person.

Call me skeptical, but I really doubt this particular incident is going to be the difference between Al Qaeda  attacking the US and not.  I'm pretty sure they'll take any opportunity they can get to strike, and they have plenty of material for their recruiting propaganda.  We made sure of that. :P

They aren't waiting around on guys like Terry Jones to give them the moral high ground, and they don't need his help to get more people on their side.  That being the case, I can't see any reason whatsoever for me to have my freedoms impinged.


EDIT: Oh, and believe me Brandon, I'm just as surprised as you are! ::)
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Trieste

Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2010, 07:55:50 PM
Thats fine, we can disagree.

You're quite gracious.

Quote from: Serephino on September 08, 2010, 07:59:45 PM
I agree that it probably wouldn't be such a huge deal if it hadn't hit the media.  No one but his neighbors would have known, and there would be no one to anger.

But unfortunately the whole world knows now.  I got the article in my email, and then saw it on the Today show.  And even if people are responsible for their own actions, if all this press causes someone to do something it's still on this moron's shoulders at least partially because it would be a reaction to him.  He is starting the chain of events.


Where was the Qur'an burning ceremony before 11th September in 2001? There wasn't any. There wasn't any anti-Islamic rhetoric, nor any widely-publicized opposition to a Muslim community center in New York.

Assuming that the US is responsible for attacks like that smacks of victim-blaming. We humans like to confuse correlation with causation, and we like to assign neat little cause-and-effect relationships to everything. When it comes to little things, we might often be correct, but when it comes to the larger scale of things, we are not that accurate. We didn't cause the original attacks, and unless this pastor is about to go hijack his own jetliner, he can't be held responsible for future attacks.

I'll reiterate that I don't like his message, but whipping up a media frenzy by telling us that Qur'an-burning will bring The Axis of Evil (or whatever they're calling it these days) down on our heads is pure, unadulterated scaremongering.

sleepingferret

.
Quote from: Will on September 08, 2010, 08:03:34 PM
Call me skeptical, but I really doubt this particular incident is going to be the difference between Al Qaeda  attacking the US and not.  I'm pretty sure they'll take any opportunity they can get to strike, and they have plenty of material for their recruiting propaganda.  We made sure of that. :P

They aren't waiting around on guys like Terry Jones to give them the moral high ground, and they don't need his help to get more people on their side.  That being the case, I can't see any reason whatsoever for me to have my freedoms impinged.

No, you're correct the Al Qaeda don't really need "recruitment" help or really any more reasons to attack us.  But this is yet another reason to add to the long list they already have.  Adding fuel to the fire so to speak, which could possibly only increase their recruitment efforts and increases the likely hood of them actually attacking us again.

Again do they really need a reason? No...but did another log just get tossed onto the fire for them?  Yep.  And that is where the problem lies.

We need to stamp their "fire" out.  I could careless about some bonfire of burning bibles or qurans (or any other holy book for that matter); it's not my business and I'm not there support it nor am I sending letters of support to said people.  So let the books burn, for all that matters...but the other "fire" needs to be put out, not fed

Will

Their fire is only going to be put out by stabilizing the region.  That can only be done by providing them with and maintaining infrastructure.  Once people have a chance at a stable life, they won't walk away from it to go help Al Qaeda. 

There is an ocean of propaganda for the terrorists to pull from; this is just pissing in an ocean.  It means nothing whatsoever, and it will not make things any more difficult than they would have been already.  Do you really believe that this is a major enough situation to warrant giving up one of the most basic freedoms of our country?
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

RubySlippers

There is a glimmer of hope since he is buring books not paper that is inkless the firedepartment considers this a case of dealing with buring a hazardess material they could go in and stop it unless they have a permit in this case. So they could act.

HockeyGod

Quote from: Trieste on September 08, 2010, 07:48:47 PM
I didn't say they were, Brandon. I was pointing out that since this guy is not Catholic, the Vatican has really nothing to do with the man and should butt out.

I don't think that the power of the Vatican should be understated. The Pope can influence many Christians beyond Roman Catholics. In addition he should (regardless of past acrimony) stand for freedom of religion and abolishing any form of persecution. Lastly, the sheer number of Catholics that could be swayed by this pronouncement is rather amazing if you think about it.

I find that this man has the right to freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean it's right to do it.

I think the press is giving it more attention in lieu of the fact that Muslim extremists will undoubtedly react to this. It's a little different for Christian extremists. I mean look - this guy's a Christian extremist and what's he doing? Speeching...er...speaking. He's not killing people. The retribution for his actions I fear will be disproportionate.

I also find it all odd. I mean the sensitivity around this act. Is it abhorrent? Yes. It's just plain dumb and disrespectful. However, people have burned Bibles and Torahs and have not had this type of media hype. I'm just perplexed.

Jude

If we compromise our values on Freedom of Speech because of the intimidation of potential violence, then the terrorists have succeeded in making us a step closer to being like them (whether that is their intention or not).  I think this guy is an idiot, but I fully support his right to do this.  It's important that we voice disapproval for his actions as a nation then stop paying attention to them.

HockeyGod

Quote from: Jude on September 08, 2010, 09:10:01 PM
If we compromise our values on Freedom of Speech because of the intimidation of potential violence, then the terrorists have succeeded in making us a step closer to being like them (whether that is their intention or not).  I think this guy is an idiot, but I fully support his right to do this.  It's important that we voice disapproval for his actions as a nation then stop paying attention to them.

Most of the voices arguing against this are NOT due to intimidation of potential violence but because it is inappropriate to disrespect a religion.

Will

Quote from: alxnjsh on September 08, 2010, 09:11:43 PM
Most of the voices arguing against this are NOT due to intimidation of potential violence but because it is inappropriate to disrespect a religion.

That doesn't seem to be the case in this thread.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Noelle

Quote from: Kaizen on September 08, 2010, 12:49:40 PM
Does anyone else see whats eff'd up about this country?  It's okay to burn an American flag, but strike a match near a Quaran... 

I don't like the implication of this sentence. It sounds to me like the same attitude people take when talking about the Danish cartoon a few years back...The whole "why does Islam get special treatment" kind of thing really irks me. If that wasn't your intent, then disregard this, but the tone just kind of made me think of it.

Anyway, it's actually really not that "okay" to burn an American flag, but we give less attention to it because it's kind of lost its power (at least in my opinion) and the shock factor is practically nil. And, well, America isn't a religion. If someone build a burn pile out of Bibles and set it on fire spouting fringe lunacy, you know there'd be a shitstorm that followed as well. Besides, burning the flag is kind of an "old" concept to express discontent. Burning a holy book is still taboo, though I bet if you had holy books burning even half as often as flags go up in flames, that, too, would lose its strength and message.

Quote from: alxnjsh on September 08, 2010, 09:11:43 PM
Most of the voices arguing against this are NOT due to intimidation of potential violence but because it is inappropriate to disrespect a religion.

I'm not sure that it's ever appropriate to disrespect something :]


Truthfully, I find this whole thing to be incredibly sad and shameful, though I do find it ironic that by staging this burning, they're probably indirectly supporting the people who print copies of the Qur'an...Because something tells me these people don't know any Muslims -- and if they did, probably wouldn't be able to convince any of them to give up their copy of the book for this cause, heh.

Oniya

Actually, it's not only 'okay' to burn the American flag, it is actually one of the approved methods of disposing of one that is no longer in respectable shape to be flown.  [US Flag Code. TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8(k).]
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Wolfy

The man said that Non-Extremist Muslims should be on his side.

Which means the Extremist Muslims are categorized as any that oppose him.

...F*** this guy. F*** him and his "The south will rise again" Mustache.

Noelle

Quote from: Oniya on September 09, 2010, 01:58:54 AM
Actually, it's not only 'okay' to burn the American flag, it is actually one of the approved methods of disposing of one that is no longer in respectable shape to be flown.  [US Flag Code. TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > Sec. 8(k).]

:P Well, yes, that's in terms of treating the flag respectfully when getting rid of it. Contextually to the situation, burning a flag in protest isn't really "okay" (as evidenced by years of attempts to ban it despite free speech), but it doesn't have the same power it used to, if you ask me.

Brandon

Quote from: Noelle on September 09, 2010, 02:16:31 AM
:P Well, yes, that's in terms of treating the flag respectfully when getting rid of it. Contextually to the situation, burning a flag in protest isn't really "okay" (as evidenced by years of attempts to ban it despite free speech), but it doesn't have the same power it used to, if you ask me.

I agree with you, the thing about shock and awe is once its being done every day it no longer becomes special (Im exaggerating of course).

Beyond that people generally just are not very patriotic anymore. I think thats more due to lack of exposure to other cultures though, Im certainly more patriotic because Ive seen humanity at what I believe is its worst and best. America isnt perfect but it could be a heck of a lot worse
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Callie Del Noire

Sigh.. why is it the media pays attention to the idiots like this when they are south of the mason/dixon line?  I'm getting tired of being compared to these fools because of my accent.

Jaybee

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on September 09, 2010, 02:28:29 AM
Sigh.. why is it the media pays attention to the idiots like this when they are south of the mason/dixon line?  I'm getting tired of being compared to these fools because of my accent.

Don't worry, I'm not even American and I've met tons of quite intelligent people from the South.  I suspect the fools include those making the comparison and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Jaybee on September 09, 2010, 03:09:34 AM
Don't worry, I'm not even American and I've met tons of quite intelligent people from the South.  I suspect the fools include those making the comparison and drawing the wrong conclusion from it.

I don't know..growing up in Ireland for 2 1/2 years in the 80s a lot of folks in the Republic seemed to think because I was white and southern I had a hood and robe (for the Klan) in my closet somewhere..and some folks in Spain when I was based there seemed to act the same way.

Jaybee

#39
Quote from: Callie Del Noire on September 09, 2010, 03:14:31 AM
I don't know..growing up in Ireland for 2 1/2 years in the 80s a lot of folks in the Republic seemed to think because I was white and southern I had a hood and robe (for the Klan) in my closet somewhere..and some folks in Spain when I was based there seemed to act the same way.

Ahhh, now I didn't say that none of the people making the comparisions were non-Americans, did I?  :)

Lucky you for living in Spain for a time.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Jaybee on September 09, 2010, 03:35:43 AM
Ahhh, now I didn't say that none of the people making the comparisions were non-Americans, did I?  :)

Lucky you for living in Spain for a time.

What can I say? 2 years in Rota Spain was the bomb!

Jaybee


Callie Del Noire


Oniya

Quote from: Callie Del Noire on September 09, 2010, 03:14:31 AM
I don't know..growing up in Ireland for 2 1/2 years in the 80s a lot of folks in the Republic seemed to think because I was white and southern I had a hood and robe (for the Klan) in my closet somewhere..and some folks in Spain when I was based there seemed to act the same way.

When I went overseas for a 'month abroad' class, I brought my 'chameleon accent' into play.  People were sure I was from out of town, but I never let on how far out of town it was.  (Thank you, PBS, for airing all those British shows.)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Brandon

#44
A new development

Pastor nixes Quran-burning, claims NYC mosque deal

QuoteGAINESVILLE, Fla. – The anti-Muslim leader of a tiny Florida church backed off his threat to burn the Quran, defusing an international firestorm Thursday after he said he was promised that a planned Islamic center and mosque would be moved away from New York's ground zero. The imam planning the center, however, quickly denied such a deal.

The Rev. Terry Jones had been under intense pressure to abandon his plan to burn the Quran on Saturday, the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. President Barack Obama urged him to listen to "those better angels" and give up his "stunt," saying it would endanger U.S. troops and give Islamic terrorists a recruiting tool. Defense Secretary Robert Gates took the extraordinary step of calling Jones personally.

Standing outside his 50-member Pentecostal church, the Dove Outreach Center, alongside Imam Muhammad Musri, the president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida, Jones said he relented when Musri assured him that the New York mosque will be moved.

Jones had never invoked the mosque controversy as a reason for his planned protest. He cited his belief that the Quran is evil because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.

But he said Thursday that that he prayed about the decision and concluded that if the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning.

"We are, of course, now against any other group burning Qurans," Jones said. "We would right now ask no one to burn Qurans. We are absolutely strong on that. It is not the time to do it."

Musri thanked Jones and his church members "for making the decision today to defuse the situation and bring to a positive end what has become the world over a spectacle that no one would benefit from except extremists and terrorists" who would use it to recruit future radicals.

After the news conference, however, Musri told The Associated Press there is no deal to move the mosque. He said there was only an agreement for him and Jones to travel to New York and meet Saturday with the imam overseeing plans to build a mosque near ground zero.

"I told the pastor that I personally believe the mosque should not be there, and I will do everything in my power to make sure it is moved," Musri said. "But there is not any offer from there (New York) that it will be moved. All we have agreed to is a meeting, and I think we would all like to see a peaceful resolution."

In New York, the leader of the Islamic center project, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, said he was surprised by Jones' announcement.

"I am glad that Pastor Jones has decided not to burn any Qurans. However, I have not spoken to Pastor Jones or Imam Musri," Rauf said in a statement. "We are not going to toy with our religion or any other. Nor are we going to barter. We are here to extend our hands to build peace and harmony."

Jones later insisted that he had struck a deal, without suggesting that he would go back to his Quran-burning plan in light of the imams' denials. He said Musri told him that officials would guarantee that the mosque would be moved.

"We are canceling the event because we have agreed, I take him at his word, he has agreed to move the Ground Zero mosque," Jones said. "I verified that three or four times with witnesses. I trust that man who gave me that. I believe he is a man of integrity, a man of his word, I do not believe that he lied to me."

Jones said that if the mosque is not moved, "then I think Islam is a very poor example of religion. I think that would be very pitiful. I do not expect that."

His decision was made after a firestorm of criticism from leaders around the world. The pope and several other Christian leaders were among those urging him to reconsider his plans, which generated a wave of anger across the Muslim world. In Afghanistan, hundreds of Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.

Obama told ABC's "Good Morning America" in an interview aired Thursday that Jones' plan "is completely contrary to our values as Americans."

"And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform," Obama said.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell confirmed that Gates called Jones about 4 p.m. EST Thursday — shortly before the pastor's announcement. During the "very brief" call, Gates expressed "his grave concern that going forward with this Quran burning would put the lives of our forces at risk, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan," Morrell said.

Morrell said earlier that the decision to issue a personal appeal was not easy because it could provoke other extremists "who, all they want, is a call from so-and-so." After Gates' call to Jones, Morrell said the secretary's "fundamental baseline attitude about this is that if that phone call could save the life of one man or woman in uniform it was a call worth placing."

The cancellation was welcomed in Gainesville, a city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city had mobilized to plan inclusive events, including Quran readings at services, as a counterpoint to Jones' protest.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

The pastor was not the only person to inject confusion into the debate over the New York mosque, which is planned to go up two blocks north of the trade center site. Donald Trump, who made a fortune in real estate, offered Thursday to buy out a major investor in the real estate partnership that controls the site where the 13-story Islamic center would be built.

Opponents argue it is insensitive to families and memories of Sept. 11 victims to build a mosque so close to where Islamic extremists flew planes into the World Trade Center and killed nearly 2,800 people. Proponents support the project as a reflection of religious freedom and diversity and say hatred of Muslims is fueling the opposition.

In a letter released Thursday by Trump's publicist, Trump told Hisham Elzanaty that he would buy his stake in one of the two lower Manhattan buildings involved in the project for 25 percent more than whatever he paid — if the mosque is moved at least five blocks farther away from the trade center site.

"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse," the letter said.

Elzanaty's response: No sale.

"This is just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight," said his lawyer, Wolodymyr Starosolsky.

He added that the offer's lack of seriousness is evident in the price.

The group collectively paid $4.8 million for the building Trump offered to buy. The other is being leased.

Starosolsky said the real estate partnership had already received two offers in the ballpark of $20 million.

"He knows what the value of the building is. If he were really interested in buying the building, he would have come forward with at least $20 million," Starosolsky said.

Starosolsky added that Elzanaty remains committed to the idea of having a mosque built on at least part of the property.

It's unclear how much control Elzanaty has over the property, which is owned by an eight-member investment group led by El-Gamal's real estate company, Soho Properties.

El-Gamal said Soho Properties controls the site, but didn't elaborate. His spokesman said he couldn't answer questions about the investment team or ownership issues.

In a pair of interviews with the AP this week, Elzanaty said he had invested in the site with an intention of making a profit and was willing to half the land for private development, and maybe all of it if a Muslim group doesn't come forward with enough money to build the mosque.

___

Associated Press Writers David B. Caruso in New York, Anne Flaherty in Washington and AP Legal Affairs Writer Curt Anderson in Miami contributed to this report.

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Oniya

I want to invoke the spirit of Henry Jones, Sr., father of Henry 'Indiana' Jones, Jr., against this man, in relation to burning books.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
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Noelle

Wow, how generous of him. He's not giving up burning the Qur'an because it's disrespectful and because he wants to make peace, but because they're moving the mosque community center. Donald Trump offering to buy the place is just a joke. I don't think I can sigh enough to express my exasperation. If I can say so, this has turned into a veritable circus-style clusterfuck...Buuuuuut, I will concede that at least they're not planning to hold an organized burning anymore, that much is a positive thing regardless of the guy's reason for canceling it. I'm sure there will still be individual groups who think it's a great idea, but they likely will not be publicized.

Serephino

I've changed my mind.  He's not an idiot; he's completely psychotic.  I guess it's good he isn't going to do it, but the complete 180 on what's coming out of his mouth just....  I don't even know what to say to that. 

Trieste

So he's trying to blackmail the NYC imam, essentially...

Brandon

Its an interesting turn of events, the Imam causes major controversy and then the Priest does. In both cases the controversy is legal but insensitive. As controversy mounts on both subjects the Priest makes the move to end both controversies together.
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Trieste

You're lauding the priest's actions as admirable, or at least you seem to be with your post. His actions are not laudable. Not only did he start the whole crappy thing, but he's apparently not above lying to try to get what he wants. That's not laudable. His actions are and have been despicable.

Will

Quote from: Trieste on September 09, 2010, 10:43:43 PM
So he's trying to blackmail the NYC imam, essentially...

If only I could give him that much credit! XD  He never even mentioned the NYC mosque before this.  I think it's just a way to pull his ass out of the fire while saving face.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Trieste

"We're going to discuss options" is pulling your ass out of the fire. "HEY YOU SAID YOU'D MOVE IT WHERES YOUR HONESTY?!?!?!?" is pretty much political blackmail and dirty pool.

And yes, I believe that this guy is lying. The NYC imam (cannot remember his name for the life of me) has been steadfast and firm in the face of a lot of hate. I find it impossible to believe he would budge now.

Wolfy

I'm telling you, guys..it's the Mustache...I mean, just look at that thing, and tell me he doesn't immediately strike you as one of those redneck, "the south will rise again" types.

o-o

On another subject, about said Community Center..I find it hilarious that Fox News is all against the Center, and calling the main funder of said Center "Evil" and other such words...yet they never say his full name, nor to they ever show his picture. Why? Because said Funder is also one of Fox news (Newscorp)'s Primary shareholders, I.E, one of their biggest sources of income.

...Hypocrisy? :D

Brandon

Incorrect Trieste, I only said it was interesting. I didn't say if it was right or not as I think what is morally right and ethically right vary from person to person. Ethically (as in lawfully) both are right. Morally is another question that will vary from person to person and no person is right or wrong to say the community center or Quran burning is good or evil

Wofly: Are we going to stereotype all southerners with Hulk hogan style facial hair? Similar to how anyone in Video games with a goatee is irrevocably evil?
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

Jaybee

I can't shake the feeling that this has all been orchestrated by a third party, that both the Pastor and Imam have both finished their roles in creating this controversy, whipped up on the orders of the same, unseen, unknown masters.

Hemingway

Quote from: Jaybee on September 10, 2010, 03:58:50 AM
I can't shake the feeling that this has all been orchestrated by a third party, that both the Pastor and Imam have both finished their roles in creating this controversy, whipped up on the orders of the same, unseen, unknown masters.

The CIA! The Illuminati! A faction within the Russian army with access to weapons of mass destruction and the intention of selling them on the international black market!

Or something less sinister, like the media.

Trieste

Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2010, 12:16:04 AM
Incorrect Trieste, I only said it was interesting.

And I said it seemed like you were lauding him for his "move to end both controversies together". Teamwork to end nasty controversy would normally be a good thing, as would compromise.

So.

Quote from: Hemingway on September 10, 2010, 05:44:22 AM
Or something less sinister, like the media.

The media can be more scary than all those others combined.

Scribbles

There's a man in South Africa now calling for the burning of the Bible, while going so far as to suggest that they even have a special day specifically for doing such.

In my opinion, all they're likely doing is burning what faith many have left in religion.
AA and OO
Current Games: Stretched Thin, Very Little Time

sesshomaruartist

Is it just me or will everyone else be reading his autobiography about how he almost burnt the Qurans? Also I think he backed out in the end after media gave him all that screen time, another example of how the media have nothing to report about, no one dies = no news as sad as that sounds, I wonder if the media will be searching for Nazis next.



Vekseid

Quote from: Brandon on September 09, 2010, 10:49:33 PM
Its an interesting turn of events, the Imam causes major controversy and then the Priest does. In both cases the controversy is legal but insensitive. As controversy mounts on both subjects the Priest makes the move to end both controversies together.

There is nothing insensitive about what the imam is doing. The priest made a Fred Phelps style publicity stunt , with about as many people. He is now trying to use that to sabotage a community center funded by one of Fox News' key shareholders.

Jaybee

Quote from: Hemingway on September 10, 2010, 05:44:22 AM
The CIA! The Illuminati! A faction within the Russian army with access to weapons of mass destruction and the intention of selling them on the international black market!

Or something less sinister, like the media.

Probably none of the above.

Will

Quote from: Kaizen on September 10, 2010, 01:03:02 PM
It has never mattered what I agree or disagree with, that, I can agree with.
I recognize the fact that it was personal property, but I think the moral implications are still there.  I wasn't arguing the legality.  That wasn't my point at all.

I understand your point.  The books are sacred, so the emotional weight is inherent.  I disagree, but I'm not going to argue that.

My point is this.  Knowing how ineffectual your outrage will be, why even give him the satisfaction of getting upset about it?  All it does is give the media a reason to publicize the story and fan the flames.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Will

...


This sort of outrage is exactly why this is in the news.  It's exactly why the guy threatened to do it.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Valerian

This just in:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/letters/20100909_Open-Letter-WBC-to-Burn-the-Koran-and-American-Flag.pdf

Quote from: WBC
September 9, 2010
The Westboro Baptist Church will burn the Koran and Doomed american flag on 9/11/2010.

False prophet Terry Jones caved—like all false prophets do, and like we told you he would.

The decree has gone forth from eternity past, from the LORD God Jehovah: this nation’s doom is imminent, and the faux “Christians” are through. Priests rape children already! It’s just a matter of the clean-up on this divine decree. This nation is done; false, phony “Christians” are done!

It’s time to talk to the false religious systems of the world, and we’ll start with the perverted Muslims and their pedophile prophet Muhammad. We will burn your Koran on 9/11/10 to tell the world that the Muslims are God’s servants to bring the final affliction to Israel and the Jews according to the promises of God.
There's more along those lines, but I feel unclean enough already.  :P

Jones is making noises about going ahead with his burning anyway, because the New York imam didn't keep a promise he never actually made; so now we might have two on the same day.

I also noticed that Jones' daughter told Reuters that she thought her father had gone mad, and needed help.
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

Trieste

Shocked. I'm shocked that the WBC is getting in on this.

:o <-- Shockedface.

Wolfy

Quote from: Brandon on September 10, 2010, 12:16:04 AM

Wofly: Are we going to stereotype all southerners with Hulk hogan style facial hair? Similar to how anyone in Video games with a goatee is irrevocably evil?

Oh come on...Everyone knows Mustaches like that are dead give-aways. Duh. o3o

Trieste


sesshomaruartist

Actually we all are being deceived this is a whole conspiracy theory did you know that fictional books have been burnt by a church before, heard of the Harry Potter books being burnt? Well, I managed to piece together what their true intentions were Harry Potter and the Koran two books both having stories, under different contexts one biblical while the other fictional. The true goal of these church's have been figured out, it will shock you, it was to burn Twilight books. All of the rest was just to keep our attention while they did it, I know I am in shock :O  :P



TheLegionary

Quote from: sesshomaruartist on September 10, 2010, 03:47:14 PM
Actually we all are being deceived this is a whole conspiracy theory did you know that fictional books have been burnt by a church before, heard of the Harry Potter books being burnt? Well, I managed to piece together what their true intentions were Harry Potter and the Koran two books both having stories, under different contexts one biblical while the other fictional. The true goal of these church's have been figured out, it will shock you, it was to burn Twilight books. All of the rest was just to keep our attention while they did it, I know I am in shock :O  :P

Great!!! Finally, the true!!!

sesshomaruartist




Amberghylles

Quote from: Wolfy on September 10, 2010, 01:43:59 PM
Oh come on...Everyone knows Mustaches like that are dead give-aways. Duh. o3o

I was born in Alabama.  I am male.  I have a mustache.  I have a great deal of pride and respect for my ancestors who fought and died for their land and their beliefs in the War of Northern Aggression.

I do not support, condone, or agree with hatred or stupidity.  I also do not appreciate that just because this man is hateful and stupid and in the South that he must automatically be:

Quote from: Wolfy on September 09, 2010, 11:29:39 PM
one of those redneck, "the south will rise again" types.


Serephino

What bothers me is I saw on the news this morning that there were riots over this in Afghanistan.  If the media hadn't felt the need to make a big deal about this, then no one would have ever known, and there wouldn't be a problem.

Why do I also get the feeling that there is a whole lot more to this?  This seems to be being done by 'pro-war' people.  If something bad does happen it will make people think that pulling out of Iraq was a really bad idea.  And I don't think the Westboro Church wants to see the war end, because then they can't go around crying that the war is God punishing us.  That's a very large part of their argument from what I've seen.

I don't know, it's just a thought...  Nothing else seems to add up.  If he were to go ahead and burn the books tomorrow, then it's over.  People may talk about it for a few more days, but will then move on to the next thing.  But now he can meet with this guy, get told no, make a huge fuss for a few more weeks....  Then of course the WBC can feed off this for a good two months.

I know freedom of speech is generally a good thing, but I'm starting to think that there should be laws against flaming like there are on forums; like you can't air it in the media if it's going to cause unwanted drama. 

Will

I seriously cannot understand how eager people are to give up their freedoms.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Serephino

What would I be giving up?  No more news casts or articles about the WBC.  No more news stories or articles about this Quran burning idiot.  No more political ads that are nothing but mud slinging.  No more extremist idiots of any kind seeking their fifteen minutes of fame.  Wow... what a sacrifice!

All I'm proposing is anti-inflammatory rules applied to the media such as are on this very forum.  On this forum I'm not allowed to say that all black people are retarded (not my opinion; only an example) despite having freedom of speech.  But the news is allowed to cover and sensationalize a fricken moron spouting off all kinds of crap about Muslims being evil, therefore causing all kinds of problems?

Will

Lots of boards do have rules against inflammatory language.  Lots of boards also have power-crazed, nutbag admins with a chubby for having things their way.  It's not that different a situation when you scale up to nations.

Start taking away rights, and you're looking at the proverbial "slippery slope."  Start telling newspapers what they can and can't print, telling news stations what they can and can't say, and you're talking about a dangerous precedent.  Are there situations where our rights have to be set aside for our own safety?  Maybe.  That's a debate for another thread.  But even if you agree with that principle (Patriot Act et al), surely you don't think this is a situation that warrants it?  This is so minor. : /

I refuse to give up any of my rights because some guy wants to burn some books.  I do not believe this has made an appreciable difference in the difficulty of our task in Iraq, even with the demonstrations, so the idea that we need to muzzle him (and in the process, muzzle ourselves) is a tough sell.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Imogen

The man probably enjoys his few weeks of fame. Soon enough, he and his books will have been forgotten.

I'm not surprised at people shouting outrage in the streets. There will always be fanatics glad to show their devotion for a cause, if not this, then something else.

In the meantime, I am not a fan of media hyping this kind of thing. It feeds people's fears and hatred, but I wouldn't go as far as silencing them. That, in my opinion, would be giving those idiots far more credit than they deserve. Just let it die out, give it time and even the most ardent debater will get bored and move to another topic.
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Jaybee

 
Quote from: Will on September 10, 2010, 11:02:50 PM
Lots of boards do have rules against inflammatory language.  Lots of boards also have power-crazed, nutbag admins with a chubby for having things their way.  It's not that different a situation when you scale up to nations.

Agree utterly, wholeheartedly and completely with the tawdry, inconsistent state of board moderation across the web.  So much for freedom of expression.  I (must) reserve my choicest thoughts for publication on my own blog, where I know they won't be censored by some oversensitive housewife with too much time on her hands, and who's been given the roles of judge, jury and executioner over my user account. 
Quote
I will disagree somewhat though with the scaling, the freedom of expression is pretty well enshrined in the First world and India, which consist of about 1/3rd of the world's population.  I'd be happy if 1/30th of the internet's board moderaters practiced the same self-restraint with censorship that

Start taking away rights, and you're looking at the proverbial "slippery slope."  Start telling newspapers what they can and can't print, telling news stations what they can and can't say, and you're talking about a dangerous precedent.  Are there situations where our rights have to be set aside for our own safety?  Maybe.  That's a debate for another thread.  But even if you agree with that principle (Patriot Act et al), surely you don't think this is a situation that warrants it?  This is so minor. : /

I refuse to give up any of my rights because some guy wants to burn some books. 
(Claps wildly)

Noelle

Quote from: Serephino on September 10, 2010, 10:51:09 PM
What would I be giving up?  No more news casts or articles about the WBC.  No more news stories or articles about this Quran burning idiot.  No more political ads that are nothing but mud slinging.  No more extremist idiots of any kind seeking their fifteen minutes of fame.  Wow... what a sacrifice!

All I'm proposing is anti-inflammatory rules applied to the media such as are on this very forum.  On this forum I'm not allowed to say that all black people are retarded (not my opinion; only an example) despite having freedom of speech.  But the news is allowed to cover and sensationalize a fricken moron spouting off all kinds of crap about Muslims being evil, therefore causing all kinds of problems?


Blocking only the speech you don't like is quite possibly the most destructive thing you could do in terms of media, press, just freedom of speech in general. It's ridiculous to say "everybody has the freedom of expression...except when I don't like it/it's unpopular/it sounds dumb". It's not freedom then, it's just dictating your opinion to others...and then what happens when others don't like what you have to say? What stops anybody else from removing your right to voice your opinion if they think what you're saying isn't worth being heard?

Oniya

There are circumstances where 'freedom of speech' is not applicable - such as the famous example of yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater.  If you are inciting violence or your words could cause physical harm to people, then you're not going to be able to claim First Amendment protection.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Will

And I don't honestly believe this is going to cause any harm to people that wouldn't have come anyway.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

TheLovelyMaid

There is an Christian organization that is giving away two Quarans per each one he sets fire to. 

I can't believe anyone would want to give energy to hatred...especially on this day.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Serephino on September 10, 2010, 09:43:19 PM

I know freedom of speech is generally a good thing, but I'm starting to think that there should be laws against flaming like there are on forums; like you can't air it in the media if it's going to cause unwanted drama. 


Sorry as much as I dislike what this guy wanted to do, what the WBC said/does and the rest; I cannot condone the curtailing of their right to open their mouth and how how blatantly stupid they are. I don't like them. I don't agree with them. In the case of the folks from the WBC, I suspect that the pastor is truly mentally ill.

However, you can't legislate stupidity and regulating the right of speech will only come back to bite you in the ass.

Oniya

Quote from: TheLovelyMaid on September 11, 2010, 04:00:11 PM
There is an Christian organization that is giving away two Quarans per each one he sets fire to. 

I can't believe anyone would want to give energy to hatred...especially on this day.

Is that as a way of countering him, or a way of supporting him?  I'm hoping that it's the former.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

TheLovelyMaid

Quote from: Oniya on September 11, 2010, 06:11:56 PM
Is that as a way of countering him, or a way of supporting him?  I'm hoping that it's the former.

Counterin...sorry if I made that unclear.  Anyway, Rev. Jones called off his plans to burn copies of the Quran.

-----

" 'The highest honor we can pay those we lost, indeed our greatest weapon in this ongoing war, is to do what our adversaries fear the most," the president said. "To stay true to who we are, as Americans; to renew our sense of common purpose; to say that we define the character of our country, and we will not let the acts of some small band of murderers who slaughter the innocent and cower in caves distort who we are.'

Obama did not mention the New York City mosque, or the Florida pastor, but his message was clear. 'We champion the rights of every American, including the right to worship as one chooses — as service members and civilians from many faiths do just steps from here, at the very spot where the terrorists struck this building,' he said. The Pentagon houses a chapel where people of different religions can pray."

--yahoo news. lovely speech this morning.

sesshomaruartist




Jaybee

#86
Quote from: Oniya on September 11, 2010, 02:28:49 PM
There are circumstances where 'freedom of speech' is not applicable - such as the famous example of yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theater.  If you are inciting violence or your words could cause physical harm to people, then you're not going to be able to claim First Amendment protection.

As a pure defence, no, but the fact that you have a right to speak/write the truth overrides and gets the case thrown out before it hits court. And proving that speech has caused physical harm is going to be a very shaky chain of evidence in most (legal) cases.  Imagine trying to put Jones on trial for "causing" the deaths of those 3 protestors in Afghanistan.  Freedom to speek/express oneself freely (within common-sense) will ALWAYS be looked upon more favourably, by the law, than the freedom from speech/expression.  Whenever the law must reprimand misuse (as opposed to abuse) of expression, it MUST do so very, very softly, lest it tread on the far more sacred freedom to express.  And rightly so.


Muse

Voltaire put it very well: 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." 

These are words I've strongly believed in for a very long time.  Freedom of speech in the US has worked organically to illustrate Voltaire's point quite nicely. 

Fifty people exercised their right too speak out against the Koran. 

Fifty Million + people exercised their right too tell the first fifty people that they were being stupid and rude. 

I haven't seen such a fine assertion of human decency in some time. 
A link for all of us who ever had a shouting match with our muse: http://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_gilbert_on_genius.html

How to set this Muse ablaze (O/Os)

When the little angel won't appear no matter how many plum blossoms you swirl:  https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=135346.msg16474321#msg16474321 (Major update 5/10/2023)

Cryptic Wanderer

#88
Quote from: Sabby on September 08, 2010, 09:27:36 AM
Because humans are short sighted and believe their own excuses.

Could not have said it any better myself, religion is a plague.

Jude

#89
Plagues don't typically inspire people to perform acts of selfless charity.  Religious faith can inspire people to do all sorts of things, good or bad.  If you think the world would be better without religion, I have to express skepticism.  Violence can be committed in the name of nearly any belief that is taken too strongly.  Political ideology and moralistic philosophies can be every bit as dangerous -- one could argue they are also the backbone of every episode of violent religious extremism, not actual religious dogma.

I was watching a documentary on the 9/11 hijackers a few days ago with a journalist who actually has been around the world interviewing terrorists and their families firsthand.  A pattern quickly formed:  the men who attacked the World Trade Center were depressed because their personal ambitions that were actually healthy were ruined by the changing political tides of Middle Eastern instability.  They felt as if they had no future, which made it quite easy to convince them to become martyrs.

There's always an undercurrent of political ideology behind this sorta stuff -- religion is unfairly saddled with all of the blame.

mystictiger

I'm with Popper on this one:
Quote
Although Popper was an advocate of toleration, he realized that even a tolerant person cannot always accept another's intolerance. For, if tolerance allowed intolerance to succeed completely, tolerance itself would be threatened. In The Open Society and Its Enemies: The Spell of Plato, he argued that:
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.
The utterence of intolerant philosophies should not always be suppressed, "as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion." However,
we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive , and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.
Furthermore, in support of human rights legislation in the second half of the 20th century, he stated:
We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal

There's simply a time that the idea of Freedom of Speech is more important than one individuals exercise of it. I think, for example, of the so-called Media cases before the Rwanda warcrimes tribunal - various media outlets and journalists were found guilty. This charming chap used his radio show to read out lists of people that should be killed.
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