Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)

[TheGlyphstone]

Uh guys *raises hand* I think the fact that this thread has now somehow turned into a discussion of a supposed national vendetta against the poor and the fat who are poor and fat through no fault of their own sort of shows how groups like the Tea Party gain traction. This whole discussion just suddenly turned very strange from my PoV.

You have a good point, actually. I'm not even sure how we got here in the first place, but returning to bickering about the shutdown is probably a better idea.

figure I'ma just split the topic, moment peoples >_>

Or we do this. Yay for admin powers.

[Dashenka]

Don't split it for me. :)

[gaggedLouise]

'Healthy' food isn't expensive.

Bread and milk isn't expensive, nor is water. How about having a peanutbutter sandwich instead of doubles fries with mayonaise? Or boil your potatoes rather than fry them. Or instead of having a soda drink, have a glass of water. It's not about 'healthy' food because all that biological shit is indeed expensive (and fraudulent) but normal food isn't expensive if you know what to get and it doesn't make you fat if you at least walk 30 minutes a day which most people do.


But can we get back to the point of the health insurances rather than to get bogged down into obesity?

Should pose several questions, but I'm in a hurry so just this one:

How long would you survive a Russian winter on milk, sandwiches, tea, locally grown veggies and some marmalade? Or even an English or German winter? When we're talking "healthy foods" I do think what's understood is good quality meat, vegetables and fruit grown without lots of biocides and handled without washing them (or injecting them) with lots of conservation chemicals to stay fresh in the shop, bread that isn't packed full of the same kind of conservation chemicals or too much sugar, and so on. The unsavoury use of food chemicals - and how to avoid them as a buyer and home chef - is an entire science these days. And it costs money to avoid, most of the time.

Uh guys *raises hand* I think the fact that this thread has now somehow turned into a discussion of a supposed national vendetta against the poor and the fat who are poor and fat through no fault of their own sort of shows how groups like the Tea Party gain traction. This whole discussion just suddenly turned very strange from my PoV.

+3

[Retribution]

Good man Vekseid the all powerful Oz lol. Oh there are many topics in there that are worth wild, hell I was biting my tongue. This does illustrate though how government by and large is so inefficient. Which the Tea Party holding the country hostage demonstrates. The discussion starts out one way, then before you know it without anyone knowing how it is off on some tangent. I wish I had a dime for every time I have sat in a meeting that took that course then I would no longer be sitting in those types meetings I would have that margarita ranch in Cancun.

[Oniya]

'Healthy' food isn't expensive.

Bread and milk isn't expensive, nor is water. How about having a peanutbutter sandwich instead of doubles fries with mayonaise? Or boil your potatoes rather than fry them. Or instead of having a soda drink, have a glass of water. It's not about 'healthy' food because all that biological shit is indeed expensive (and fraudulent) but normal food isn't expensive if you know what to get and it doesn't make you fat if you at least walk 30 minutes a day which most people do.


But can we get back to the point of the health insurances rather than to get bogged down into obesity?

Obesity is directly related to health issues.  Have you watched the video I posted?  The amount of unhealthy processed food that is cheaper than ordinary (not the 'organic' stuff) fruits and vegetables?  If people aren't able to eat healthy because they are in the financial straits that make it impossible to get health insurance, because the insurance companies are in it for profit, and the Tea Partiests are trying to block the first baby step in the right direction in generations - *deep breath* - then those people are going to suffer from health issues that people like you are saying make them undeserving of health care in the first place.

[Dashenka]

Right now, though, we give unearned income ridiculously preferential treatment, and a lot of benefits programs are designed as traps to keep the extremely poor 'content' and fighting against the middle class rather than outright rioting or working to escape their condition.

But if this is true, a simple law won't change anything, as I said before. It would require a whole mentality change from the entire country.

Because as long as this is true, that ACA is just a patch on massive open wound. Also, I'm pretty sure there are people out there in the US who are against having a health insurance when that means they have to pay the first drunk idiot who nearly kills himself and needs a surgery but can't pay it for himself.

It's the same reason why I'm not an organ donor. Unless I can decide who gets them and who not, nobody will get them and yes that might be peevish and bitter, but I'm not saving money or working hard for people who don't value their own lives.

How long would you survive a Russian winter on milk, sandwiches, tea, locally grown veggies and some marmalade? Or even an English or German winter? When we're talking "healthy foods" I do think what's understood is good quality meat, vegetables and fruit grown without lots of biocides and handled without washing them (or injecting them) with lots of conservation chemicals to stay fresh in the shop, bread that isn't packed full of the same kind of conservation chemiclas or too much sugar, and so on.

1. England doesn't have a winter. It's just a bit colder than in summer.
2. My grandparents have been living of basic foods for their entire life and before you ask, they are 92 and 94. They've never had a soda or fries in their life.
3. Conservation chemicals and biocides doesn't make you fat. The lack of excercise after you ate it, will. So just buy the cheaper, non bio meat. It's the same meat only cheaper. The thing is... it doesn't matter what you eat, it's how much you eat.

But I'm desperately trying to get this topic back on track and you're not helping :D

[Bloodied Porcelain]

Obesity is directly related to health issues.  Have you watched the video I posted?  The amount of unhealthy processed food that is cheaper than ordinary (not the 'organic' stuff) fruits and vegetables?  If people aren't able to eat healthy because they are in the financial straits that make it impossible to get health insurance, because the insurance companies are in it for profit, and the Tea Partiests are trying to block the first baby step in the right direction in generations - *deep breath* - then those people are going to suffer from health issues that people like you are saying make them undeserving of health care in the first place.

THIS. A million times THIS.

[Dashenka]

I saw your video but failed to see the point. Yes 30 dollars is a low amount of money but processed food doesn't make you fat. I'm not sure who told you that but it's not. If it was, I'd be huge cause I haven't cooked a real meal in three years. I warm food because I don't give a damn about food and I'm not fat.

[Retribution]

Okay this is where I piss you all off at me really, really, badly. Having said that it is not my intent but here is how I feel:

Taxation as I have said before I hate graduated income tax. I feel it is using the tax code to punish the haves for having for lack of a better explanation. I know the majority of you HATE that opinion. But I firmly believe that a flat tax is best we all pay the same percentage. I do not care the percentage pick a freaking number and we all pay it. Then no one is sitting in the position of judgement determining who can afford to pay what. I find that a kind of arrogant stance. I am sorry but I do it just seems arrogant to me for whoever to sit back and say "well you have X amount of money so you can pay Y in taxes."

As for the whole debate on obesity I think there is a kernel of truth in all of your arguments. But I think what is often missed in debates when "the poor" are brought up is the role of culture. Look at whatever impoverished group and the children are raised seeing their parents going through life in certain ways and they grow up emulating them and the cycle continues. This could be inner city, rural Appalachia, pick your poor people but I think the factors are the same. I think how we really need to combat these problems is to somehow break this cycle and get people to get educations, find trades what have you to better themselves. I will freely admit I have no idea how to accomplish this.

Another factor that comes up with the poor is that some people are poor because of really bad life decisions. Now I do not think they should be clapped in irons for making a bad choice. But there are people out there who consistently shoot themselves in the foot. Over and over again, I think they should face some repercussions for that, but more importantly something needs to be devised to get them to stop shooting themselves in the foot. Again what I have no idea.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

But if this is true, a simple law won't change anything, as I said before. It would require a whole mentality change from the entire country.

Because as long as this is true, that ACA is just a patch on massive open wound. Also, I'm pretty sure there are people out there in the US who are against having a health insurance when that means they have to pay the first drunk idiot who nearly kills himself and needs a surgery but can't pay it for himself.

It's the same reason why I'm not an organ donor. Unless I can decide who gets them and who not, nobody will get them and yes that might be peevish and bitter, but I'm not saving money or working hard for people who don't value their own lives.


1. England doesn't have a winter. It's just a bit colder than in summer.
2. My grandparents have been living of basic foods for their entire life and before you ask, they are 92 and 94. They've never had a soda or fries in their life.
3. Conservation chemicals and biocides doesn't make you fat. The lack of excercise after you ate it, will. So just buy the cheaper, non bio meat. It's the same meat only cheaper. The thing is... it doesn't matter what you eat, it's how much you eat.

But I'm desperately trying to get this topic back on track and you're not helping :D

The ACA is not being presented as a cure-all for every insurance issue the US has. It's a starting point, and it fixes a LOT of issues our system has. Like not denying people for pre existing conditions, ensuring that all women have access to reproductive care and ignorant religious people can't deny it to them just cause they don't like it, etc.

And I'm sticking by my point that if you think you should be able to deny someone who smokes (regardless of who they are, what they do, etc... hell, our PRESIDENT smokes) health care because of that fact, I should be allowed to deny someone health care because I think they're a dick and their heartless view points are a plague on society. And they should be able to decide that THEIR taxes don't get to help YOU if you get in to a tight spot, too, because you wanted to deny them care when they needed it. Viciousness breeds viciousness. It's not healthy and it's not good for anyone.

[Oniya]

I saw your video but failed to see the point. Yes 30 dollars is a low amount of money but processed food doesn't make you fat. I'm not sure who told you that but it's not. If it was, I'd be huge cause I haven't cooked a real meal in three years. I warm food because I don't give a damn about food and I'm not fat.

Processed food is usually high in cholesterol, sugars and/or sodium, and low in actual nutritive value.  It's got calories, and that's about it.  High cholesterol is linked to heart disease.  High sugar intake is linked to diabetes.  High sodium intake is linked to high blood pressure.  Any one of these conditions can lead to problems in maintaining physical activity.  Lack of physical activity leads to obesity.

[Dashenka]

I do agree that the ACA is a start and perhaps healthcare as a whole would/could be a lot cheaper than it apparently is now, because the insurance companies will use a bit of leverage on the manufacturers of stuff people need.

So I'm all for a health insurance.

I didn't say it quite the way you state it now. If you smoke and break your leg you should still get your leg fixed because you smoking has nothing to do with breaking your leg. You wrapping your car around a tree because you are too drunk to stand up and walk, is your own cock up and I don't see why the whole society should pay for that.

[Kythia]

Who should pay if I'm driving drunk but Bloodied Porcelain walks out in front of me without looking where she's going and, in swerving to avoid her, I hit a tree?  A tree I would have avoided if I was sober, but I would also have avoided if Bloodied Porcelain had just followed the Green Cross Code.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

Who should pay if I'm driving drunk but Bloodied Porcelain walks out in front of me without looking where she's going and, in swerving to avoid her, I hit a tree?  A tree I would have avoided if I was sober, but I would also have avoided if Bloodied Porcelain had just followed the Green Cross Code.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the fact that you're talking about hitting me with a car :p LOL

[Kythia]

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the fact that you're talking about hitting me with a car :p LOL

What?  I swerved to avoid you.  I don't do that for just anyone.

What about if I worked as a coal miner and thus had an increased chance of various chest infections but also smoked.  Who pays for the care for my chest infection.

What if, Dashenka, the world can't be neatly divided into black and white.

[mia h]

It's the same reason why I'm not an organ donor. Unless I can decide who gets them and who not, nobody will get them and yes that might be peevish and bitter, but I'm not saving money or working hard for people who don't value their own lives.

Not that I'm wishing that anything bad happens to you, but imagine a situation arises where you need a donated organ through no fault of your own. How would feel about having to audtion for the family of the donor, so that can see if you are worthy of thier family members help?

3. Conservation chemicals and biocides doesn't make you fat. The lack of excercise after you ate it, will. So just buy the cheaper, non bio meat. It's the same meat only cheaper. The thing is... it doesn't matter what you eat, it's how much you eat.

Of course it makes a difference what you eat, go watch Supersize Me and see what the effects are of eating normal portions of fast food are. It's cheap, it's full of crap and it will make your life shorter

[Dashenka]

Processed food is usually high in cholesterol, sugars and/or sodium, and low in actual nutritive value.  It's got calories, and that's about it.  High cholesterol is linked to heart disease.  High sugar intake is linked to diabetes.  High sodium intake is linked to high blood pressure.  Any one of these conditions can lead to problems in maintaining physical activity.  Lack of physical activity leads to obesity.

I guess that's one way of looking at it. Personally I think everybody could easily walk for 30 minutes a day and with normal food intake, processed or not, that should be plenty. As I said, I've been living on take out and microwave meals for almost three years now. If anything, it made me thinner, because it's all so terrible. I know some chefs in the world will hate me for this but food is supposed to be fuel. Nothing more, nothing less. Fuel to keep your body going and your body doesn't give a crap whether it's processed or fresh or soda or water. A dry slice of bread has the same effect as a hamburger, they're both disgusting only it costs less.

I find that a kind of arrogant stance. I am sorry but I do it just seems arrogant to me for whoever to sit back and say "well you have X amount of money so you can pay Y in taxes."

I agree. Why should anybody pay more taxes because they have higher income?

[gaggedLouise]

Who should pay if I'm driving drunk but Bloodied Porcelain walks out in front of me without looking where she's going and, in swerving to avoid her, I hit a tree?  A tree I would have avoided if I was sober, but I would also have avoided if Bloodied Porcelain had just followed the Green Cross Code.

Nobody, pehaps? "They were both at fault"  >:( ::)

[Dashenka]

Who should pay if I'm driving drunk but Bloodied Porcelain walks out in front of me without looking where she's going and, in swerving to avoid her, I hit a tree?  A tree I would have avoided if I was sober, but I would also have avoided if Bloodied Porcelain had just followed the Green Cross Code.

You'd piss off Greenpeace. On a more serious note, BP should be paid for by the tax payers because it's not her fault. Or if you can afford it, you should.

Not that I'm wishing that anything bad happens to you, but imagine a situation arises where you need a donated organ through no fault of your own. How would feel about having to audtion for the family of the donor, so that can see if you are worthy of thier family members help?

That shouldn't have to be done by me but by screening processes. If you have been an alcoholist for your entire life and you need a new liver, tough luck. You've had your chances, you've fucked it. Those people shouldn't even apply for an organ donation.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

I guess that's one way of looking at it. Personally I think everybody could easily walk for 30 minutes a day and with normal food intake, processed or not, that should be plenty. As I said, I've been living on take out and microwave meals for almost three years now. If anything, it made me thinner, because it's all so terrible. I know some chefs in the world will hate me for this but food is supposed to be fuel. Nothing more, nothing less. Fuel to keep your body going and your body doesn't give a crap whether it's processed or fresh or soda or water. A dry slice of bread has the same effect as a hamburger, they're both disgusting only it costs less.

I agree. Why should anybody pay more taxes because they have higher income?

Three years is totally not a long enough time to base your entire knowledge of the situation on... I feel terrible thinking about the hell you're going to encounter 30-40 years from now when your heart and other organs start to go bad from all that crap. Not to mention all the deficiencies you could be suffering from now and just don't know it.

[Iniquitous]

1. England doesn't have a winter. It's just a bit colder than in summer.
2. My grandparents have been living of basic foods for their entire life and before you ask, they are 92 and 94. They've never had a soda or fries in their life.
3. Conservation chemicals and biocides doesn't make you fat. The lack of excercise after you ate it, will. So just buy the cheaper, non bio meat. It's the same meat only cheaper. The thing is... it doesn't matter what you eat, it's how much you eat.

But I'm desperately trying to get this topic back on track and you're not helping :D

1. Interesting, I have friends that live in Folkestone England and see ALL kinds of pictures of their winters.. and yes, they are winters. Snow, ice, extremely cold temps.
2. Processed foods are not good for the body - they will contribute to making a person fat. The cheap foods that people can afford right now are high in carbs (bad for the body) and full of preservatives (bad for the body). If a person wants to eat healthy they are going to pay out the nose for it. You act as if it is a simple thing but it isn't. When meat is 3 to 4 dollars a pound, milk is over 3 dollars a gallon, and fresh vegetables are near impossible to find it is no simple thing to eat healthy. And before you start crowing that it is just lack of exercise that makes you fat - you are wrong. It is *what* you eat, *how* much you eat, *when* you eat it and the lack of exercise.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

What?  I swerved to avoid you.  I don't do that for just anyone.

I... love you too? o.o I'm all conflicted now lol.

[Dashenka]

1. Interesting, I have friends that live in Folkestone England and see ALL kinds of pictures of their winters.. and yes, they are winters. Snow, ice, extremely cold temps.
2. Processed foods are not good for the body - they will contribute to making a person fat. The cheap foods that people can afford right now are high in carbs (bad for the body) and full of preservatives (bad for the body). If a person wants to eat healthy they are going to pay out the nose for it. You act as if it is a simple thing but it isn't. When meat is 3 to 4 dollars a pound, milk is over 3 dollars a gallon, and fresh vegetables are near impossible to find it is no simple thing to eat healthy. And before you start crowing that it is just lack of exercise that makes you fat - you are wrong. It is *what* you eat, *how* much you eat, *when* you eat it and the lack of exercise.

-5 Celcius is not extremely cold

Now get back on topic :D

[Dashenka]

Well hopefully my girlfriend will start cooking before that :D

My point is, it's not what you eat, it's how you eat.

[Retribution]

Well hopefully my girlfriend will start cooking before that :D

My point is, it's not what you eat, it's how you eat.

Uh not exactly  :-) I am a retired wrestler so I have a little experience with weight control. What you eat is incredibly relevant as is volume of food intake as well as exercise. I think one of Russian decent can probably appreciate the intricacies of weight control involved with wrestlers. I used to regularly loose 15 lbs a day but I also did not eat and worked out like Alexander Karelin running through Siberian snow drifts with a tree on his back. You can control weight the right way and the wrong way.

Do it wrong like I did so many times back in the day and you get older like I am now and you have some serious digestive issues. Not to mention a life long battle with anorexia and bulimia. And high fat foods like fast food pack on pounds and is cheap. So those in lower income eat a lot of it and have the health problems that go along with it. There is also a just plain genetic factor as per body fat percentage not to mention woman have a higher body fat content than men due to the fact they bear children. Now sitting on your butt eating junk food and drinking soda can and will make you gain weight and sedentary life style is a big factor in obesity but it is much more complicated than that.