The idolizing of a cop-killer.

[Monfang]

I'm sure if you surf the net or watch the news, you heard or saw this. Facebook pages, twitters, online organizations and a political movement all siding with Christopher Dorner, the man who killed two civilians and two cops in his attempt to 'clear his name'. While this speaks about the culture we now live in, we can't talk about that before we learn more about the man in question.

Christopher was an Navy Reservist before joining the LAPD in 2005. He completed his training in 2006 and after returning from his deployment as a reservist to Bahrain for 13 months, was partnered with Sergeant Teresa Evans to complete his probationary training. During this training, in 2007, they were called to  the DoubleTree Hotel in San Pedro where Christopher Gettler was causing a disturbance. When Dorner and his training officer showed up, they found Gettler. He was uncooperative and threw a punch at one of the officers, prompting Sargent Evans, to use an electric Taser weapon on him and then arrest him. Here is where the story changes.

Dorner attests that Evans then kicked the man in the face, chest and the shoulders. However, not only where there no markings on the man or his clothing to coinside with being kicked. Three witnesses from the DoubleTree Hotel who watched the events testified to not seeing any kicking occurring. There are also two other issues with the story. First, Dorner was given a poor rating prior to him coming forward about the incident and second, it took him two weeks to come forward.

It was this incident that cause Dorner to be fired and lose his security clearance which also made him lose his job with the Navy Reserves, it was unclear whether this was before or after his divorce in 2007. Dorner did fight the termination, taking it to court several times. However the judges all found that there was no sufficient evidence to support Dorner's claims. The last time was in 2011.

Dorner goes off the radar for a time after this before posting his manifesto online in early February. Here's the timeline that I found of the events:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

On February 1, Anderson Cooper of CNN received a package at his office containing a DVD that states Dorner's case against the LAPD. The package also contained a bullet-ridden Challenge coin issued by LAPD Chief William Bratton and a note inscribed with "1MOA" (1 Minute of Angle), implying that the coin was shot at 100m.

In the city of Irvine, in the evening hours of February 3, 2013, 28-year-old Monica Quan, and her fiance, 27-year-old Keith Lawrence, were found shot to death in Lawrence's parked car, outside their condominium complex. Quan, an assistant women's basketball coach at Cal State Fullerton, was the daughter of Randal Quan, a former Los Angeles Police Department captain and lawyer who formerly represented Dorner during Dorner's dismissal hearing from the LAPD. Lawrence was a campus security officer for University of Southern California.

On February 4, a manifesto was published online, purportedly by Dorner, outlining his experiences and stating his motives for the shootings as being to clear his name. In it he wrote, "I will not be alive to see my name cleared. That's what this is about, my name." Dorner's manifesto had also specifically named Randal Quan and his family as targets, so Irvine police named Dorner as the primary suspect in the murders of Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence on the afternoon of February 6, 2013. The manifesto said that Quan had failed to represent Dorner's interests, in favor of those of the department. Dorner reported specific acts of specific officers participating in the retaliation but their names have been redacted by media sources at the request of law enforcement who have cited officer safety concerns.

At approximately 1:30 am on February 7, two LAPD officers were driving to a protection detail where they were assigned as security for one of the officers potentially targeted by Dorner, when they were flagged down by a civilian. The person who flagged them down reported seeing a man matching Dorner's description at a gas station in Corona. The officers investigated the report, and they were following a pickup truck when the driver stopped, got out, and fired a rifle at them, grazing the head of one officer.
Shortly after that incident, two police officers were ambushed while stopped in their marked patrol unit at a red light in the city of Riverside. One officer, Michael Crain, died shortly after the shooting; the other was rushed to a nearby hospital in critical condition for surgery but survived.

It was after this event that police put their entire force on 'Tactical Alert'. This meant that each officer was now working 12-hour shifts 7 days a week. When they found evidence that Dorner was moving out of the LAPD's jurisdictions, other police forces joined in. They followed the trail to the Big Bear mountain range. Most of us know the incidents that follow which lead to the final firefight on the 13th.

During the events, Dorner becomes something of a cult hero in some circles. These circles already had their grevences about the LAPD or police in general, and to have someone whom they can believe is fighting against them was enough for them to cheer for more deaths by the officers and apparently by anyone related to them seeing as they didn't shed a tear about the two civilians.

I can't even begin to understand why they would do this beyond mental deficiency. To call for the killing of people just because of the organization they belong to is rather unusual to me.

I'm sure we could hit the usual suspects for the growth of these circles; The Internet for making it easier for them to get together, Rap music that often have negative lyrics on the topic of the police, video games that reward their killing. However, I think it may be something deeper than that. However, I am unsure as to what it is. What do you folks think? Do you think Dorner is a hero? Or do you have any idea as to why he is treated as such?

[Trieste]

Would you mind citing your sources for all of the facts you've presented? Things like the description of the altercation can be altered greatly by inherent bias - and most writing is biased. Discerning that bias is a big part of analyzing the information given.

It would be appreciated.  :-)

[Monfang]

Would you mind citing your sources for all of the facts you've presented? Things like the description of the altercation can be altered greatly by inherent bias - and most writing is biased. Discerning that bias is a big part of analyzing the information given.

It would be appreciated.  :-)

I pulled it from the LA Times and from the Wiki page associated with the incidents and the person in question.

[Trieste]

Thank you. Which parts did you pull from which sources?

[Monfang]

Thank you. Which parts did you pull from which sources?

I pulled the timeline and the information about him and his service from the wiki page and the information about the kicking incident from the LATimes. The rest of it is commentary.

[Cyrano Johnson]

IMO, the so-called "idolizing" of Chris Dorner appears to be the province of a tiny handful of kooks on the Internet, and mostly of interest to conservatives extremely desperate for a talking point. It is little more interesting than the "secessionists" who cropped up both times Obama was elected and turned out to be mostly a small subgroup of people demanding "secession" on behalf of a bunch of states they didn't live in.

[Monfang]

IMO, the so-called "idolizing" of Chris Dorner appears to be the province of a tiny handful of kooks on the Internet

Of course they are the minority, however this doesn't offer an explanation as to why they think like they do.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Of course they are the minority, however this doesn't offer an explanation as to why they think like they do.

They're quite explicit about why they think like they do: they've had bad experiences with cops, and Dorner must now be a hero because he became the enemy of what they think of as their enemy. It's not hard to see the fallacy at work there, some amount of people thinking like this about X item in the news is not entirely novel.

But a pro-Chris Dorner site getting 90 whole "likes" on Facebook is not earth-shattering news. I think probably the more interesting story is not the pro-Dorner kooks, but those parties who are so very interested in making hay of them as some kind of significant, newsworthy political story.

[Monfang]

They're quite explicit about why they think like they do: they've had bad experiences with cops, and Dorner must now be a hero because he became the enemy of what they think of as their enemy. It's not hard to see the fallacy at work there, some amount of people thinking like this about X item in the news is not entirely novel.

I can't say I had all positive experiences with cops as well, however I am epathic to them and learned to understand why they behave as they do. I ask though, how did we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

[Trieste]

I can't say I had all positive experiences with cops as well, however I am epathic to them and learned to understand why they behave as they do. I ask though, how did we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

I would argue that it is mixed. "Cop-killer" is actually a fairly inflammatory term in itself. Cops are respected, admired, and called heroes by a pretty wide swathe of the population.

[Oniya]

I can't say I had all positive experiences with cops as well, however I am epathic to them and learned to understand why they behave as they do. I ask though, how did we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

Because people focus on the 'bad apples' like Mark Fuhrman's use of the 'N-word' or the the Rodney King beating, and ignore the people that quietly do the best job that they can do.  Horrific video and damning audio tapes fall under the 'If it bleeds, it leads' category of journalism.

[Cyrano Johnson]

we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

"We" didn't. Cops are reflexively idolized by most of the populace in both Canada and America. I would go so far as to say they are still reflexively idolized, on the whole, even by groups that have disproportionately bad experiences with law enforcement. They just aren't idolized by some of the people who've had bad experiences with them, some of whom take it too far.

[Monfang]

Hmmm.. Perhaps I have allowed myself to be in the minority too much and now my world-view is a bit clouded to the truth.

[Zeitgeist]

IMO, the so-called "idolizing" of Chris Dorner appears to be the province of a tiny handful of kooks on the Internet, and mostly of interest to conservatives extremely desperate for a talking point. It is little more interesting than the "secessionists" who cropped up both times Obama was elected and turned out to be mostly a small subgroup of people demanding "secession" on behalf of a bunch of states they didn't live in.

Really now. Like Marc Lamont Hill who talking out both sides of his mouth paying lip service to the killings while at the same time characterizing him as an action hero?

Chris Dorner's 'Exciting' Rampage 'Like Watching Django' Exact Revenge For Police Brutality

[Monfang]

You know, I wanted to link to what the news media was doing to him, but I thought that would be hitting below the belt.

[Zeitgeist]

You know, I wanted to link to what the news media was doing to him, but I thought that would be hitting below the belt.

How so?

It was like a Denzel Washington movie! Says one frothing talking head.

[Trieste]

You know, I wanted to link to what the news media was doing to him, but I thought that would be hitting below the belt.

Providing concrete examples of something you're talking about is a good thing, for future reference.

[Monfang]

Well in that case: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/14/bill-oreilly-goes-off-on-columbia-prof-who-said-dorners-rampage-was-kind-of-exciting/

<iframe src="http://videos.mediaite.com/embed/player/?content=PZG92Q03PM1H7Z4F&layout=&content_type=content_item&playlist_cid=&media_type=video&read_more=1&widget_type_cid=svp" width="420" height="421" frameborder="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" scrolling="no" allowtransparency="true"></iframe>

[Cyrano Johnson]

Really now. Like Marc Lamont Hill who talking out both sides of his mouth paying lip service to the killings while at the same time characterizing him as an action hero?

You're aggressively misrepresenting Hill's comments. He said clearly that he was explaining what motivates these people to identify with the guy, not endorsing his actions. He's saying (correctly) that they're seeing him in a superheroic role, as a surrogate for their own frustrations. He is correct. He is also correct that the guy is a murderer and what he did was wrong. Understanding both things strikes me as honesty to the facts, not "talking out of both sides of his mouth"...

... unless of course you want the guy to be foaming and denouncing him as a terrorist and blathering about how these people are all probably Obama supporters, which someone on Fox is most surely doing right at this moment. The conservative fascination with this relatively minor phenomenon is of course to whip up another serving of red meat for its Negrophobic base, this also is nothing new.

[Monfang]

You're aggressively misrepresenting Hill's comments. He said clearly that he was explaining what motivates these people to identify with the guy, not endorsing his actions. He's saying (correctly) that they're seeing him in a superheroic role, as a surrogate for their own frustrations. He is correct. He is also correct that the guy is a murderer and what he did was wrong. Understanding both things strikes me as honesty to the facts, not "talking out of both sides of his mouth"...

... unless of course you want the guy to be foaming and denouncing him as a terrorist and blathering about how these people are all probably Obama supporters, which someone on Fox is most surely doing right at this moment. The conservative fascination with this relatively minor phenomenon is of course to whip up another serving of red meat for its Negrophobic base, this also is nothing new.

And this is why I keep the media out of it.

[Zeitgeist]

Ya'll right, it is all Bush and Fox News' fault. My bad. <chortle>

[Cyrano Johnson]

Ya'll right, it is all Bush and Fox News' fault. My bad. <chortle>

Weak sauce, man.

[Monfang]

Ya'll right, it is all Bush and Fox News' fault. My bad. <chortle>

Oh there is such an easy target with that, but that would derail the conversation.

We see now that the support expands more from fringe groups to people who actually have influence.

[Cyrano Johnson]

We see now that the support expands more from fringe groups to people who actually have influence.

Is any of this claimed "support" anything different from Zeitgeist's attempt to misrepresent Marc Lamont Hill above? Because if all the claims are of that caliber, there's nothing going on but "conservative" self-abuse.

[Caehlim]

While this speaks about the culture we now live in

Does it?

It's nothing new. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_kelly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_the_Kid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_hood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_and_Clyde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils_Dacke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampi%C3%A3o

There have always been anti-establishment folk heroes.

[Caehlim]

Because people focus on the 'bad apples' like Mark Fuhrman's use of the 'N-word' or the the Rodney King beating, and ignore the people that quietly do the best job that they can do.

This is true, however in many of the 'bad apple' cases there have been signs that there is a culture of covering up and sticking up for your fellow officers even when you know that they're in the wrong. I certainly don't believe that this is the case for all, or even many of the police officers but there have often been people in positions of authority who have permitted, abetted or even encouraged these abuses to occur.

(For the record, I know nothing about the LAPD. I'm thinking more of some of the corruption scandals in the Victorian and New South Wales police forces over here back in the 70s and 80s and what subsequent investigations have revealed).

On the other hand as you say there are many responsible and dedicated people serving in law enforcement who are unfairly tarnished by this reputation. I have a lot of respect for the ideals of the police, this is what makes it such a disappointment to me when corruption and scandals exist within the police force.

[Brittany]

There was a man in the United Kingdom recently, Raul Moat.

He was one of these people who had a bit of a dodgy background, nightclub bouncer and a history, and as such the police used to pester him and make his life difficult.  This is kind of common in the UK.  Then his ex girlfriend dated a policeman and bragged about it, knowing he hated the police, and generally to make him feel small.

He went and shot her, and the policeman, then knowing he was in trouble, shot another policeman and took out his eye.  The result was quite a large undercurrent of support for him.  Facebook tributes, messages, a shrine.   The term "legend" was thrown around a lot.  That policeman could never understand that while the majority of sympathy was for him, there was also sympathy for Moat, and eventually killed himself.  The press were really nasty to anyone who sympathised with Moat, but the press were hated at this time for scandals, so that seemed to grow the support.  It was as though people felt they were sticking it up to the establishment by supporting him.  Lots of people blamed his ex girlfriend rather than him too.  Around the same time, a man Derek Bird did a similar thing, but killing taxi drivers instead of cops.  He was met with hatred and scorn.  Yet people were fine with Moat killing police.  I heard someone in a bar wishing he would take out a few more.

I think it's because people can relate.  While the majority of police do a good job, it is true there is still an element of bullying, and there are still people drawn to that job because they want authority, and superiority over others.  The story of someone like Moat resonates with the people who have had issues with the police and police harrassment (be they rightly or wrongly harrassed) and people identified with the fact that he seemed to be trying to turn his life around, but faced difficulties in doing so.  While he was on the run I regularly heard people say "go on Moat" and from people you would not expect to take such an attitude too.   Young intelligent students who had been pushed around by police while protesting government fees for example.  It happened around the same time, and a large group of them really supported him.   

Does it make what he did right?  Of course not, he was completely wrong.  Can I understand that certain people would gravitate to and identify with him?  Yes.  But this is really an indictment of society and morals as they are today.  If you gave people reason to believe the police do a good job and are important, rather than the government's private army, and if people didn't see "them" and "us" and identified with the policeman as they do the taxi driver, then he would have been met with the same anger as Derek Bird was. 

There has been a long standing decay of respect and trust, and that is down to the government and police to earn it back.  People here are very anti-establishment right now, as we've been let down by our government, media and police.  The press scandal, the banking crisis, the MP expenses scandal, immigration benefits culture, light sentences, student protests, London riots, police covering up the Hillsborough disaster, it's all happened within a few years.  Therefore a rebel will earn some support, even when it is misplaced.

Every single one of us can emphasize with someone who has been pressured too much and finally "snaps".  Where we differ is on how much of the "snap" we can justify and tolerate.  For me, the moment someone takes another life, I lose any sympathy I may have had if they had killed themselves or sought help.  But there are some that will tolerate and sympathise with them, no matter how they choose to vent their frustration.

[Braioch]

Too often things like this play on people's dislike of established authority, or should I say authority that is and has been abused before. All too often do I meet people who intensely dislike and/or fear cops the minute they see them. When someone turns around and 'sticks it to them' they have a new folk hero, or a new way to thumb their noses at the established authority. Times like this when a lot of people are unhappy with who is in charge, I suspect people will flock to the support of events like this more often than they would in calmer, less turbulent and generally stressful times.

Don't get me wrong, I am unhappy with our leadership and have my own very strong opinions and theories of correction on the matter, (which I will not be using this thread to express :P) killing a cop and then turning around and making up a story (sorry, you don't wait two weeks, and have no evidence and expect me to believe the cop was beating someone) is not the way to go about it. If it was a case of a cop genuinely abusing their authority, and I don't mean just being a all around dick, but actually using their authority to cause great harm to someone, I could understand and sympathize with the man. However, all I see in this case is one asshole who has a short temper, poor decision making skills and a lack of a set of balls to admit he done fucked up.

I'm all for making a point, the point however should not be written in blood.

[Monfang]

I'm glad to see for the most part this culture doesn't exist here.

[Brittany]

I'm glad to see for the most part this culture doesn't exist here.

It doesn't exist in most places.  It's a very minority thing because most people hold themselves to a standard that doesn't condone murder. 

I can tell you I don't have much respect for the police, I feel more nervous than secure when I see them, and this is coming from somebody who's biggest crime in life was to steal a creme egg (small 30p chocolate egg) from a store when I was 12.  I also fear with our politically correct culture I can make a reasoned argument on a website such as this one and find the police actively pressing me for racism or something.  People have been arrested for making jokes online, and people have been jailed for attacking a gang of travellers who broke into their home in the middle of the night.  In Great Britain right now, they feel like David Cameron's politically correct personal army more than upholders of justice, and this really needs to change.

I can understand people hating the police, I can understand people protesting the police and government.  And I can understand cheering for the underdog and supporting a rebel.  But individual officers are people doing their jobs, in the same way a taxi driver, a butcher, a nurse does theirs.  If someone has an argument with the police, the lowest level cops are not usually the right target.

Taking another persons life is unjustifiable in almost any circumstances outside of defense in my view. 

[Braioch]

It doesn't exist in most places.  It's a very minority thing because most people hold themselves to a standard that doesn't condone murder. 

I can tell you I don't have much respect for the police, I feel more nervous than secure when I see them, and this is coming from somebody who's biggest crime in life was to steal a creme egg (small 30p chocolate egg) from a store when I was 12.  I also fear with our politically correct culture I can make a reasoned argument on a website such as this one and find the police actively pressing me for racism or something.  People have been arrested for making jokes online, and people have been jailed for attacking a gang of travellers who broke into their home in the middle of the night.  In Great Britain right now, they feel like David Cameron's politically correct personal army more than upholders of justice, and this really needs to change.

I can understand people hating the police, I can understand people protesting the police and government.  And I can understand cheering for the underdog and supporting a rebel.  But individual officers are people doing their jobs, in the same way a taxi driver, a butcher, a nurse does theirs.  If someone has an argument with the police, the lowest level cops are not usually the right target.

Taking another persons life is unjustifiable in almost any circumstances outside of defense in my view.

The problem is that a lot of that is the end result of the justice system failing those people, not necessarily the cops. Most cops that get the short end of the stick are just grunts, the beat cops sent in to do the dirty work and get left with the mess to clean up. Admittedly these are also the ones whom when dirty or just abusive of their power you are most likely to run into.

I myself have had to deal with cops whom I did not like, not purely because they were doing their jobs, but because I could tell they were just being dicks because they could get away with it. Most cops that I've known however are decent and respectable people whom are just doing their job as they are made to do their jobs.

[Callie Del Noire]

Do I condone his actions? No. Do I think there is more to things that the offical line of 'crazy ex-cop' that some are spouting. Yes, I imainge that the LAPD will get another black eye out of this. If there is any truth to some of his assertions of conflict of interest? Was there a clear sequence of bias?

I doubt that it will be easy as that to prove the deceased's claims. I think a LOT of ass covering (pro and con) will be involved.