Shadows of the Sword Coast (Forgotten Realms 3.5)

[greenknight]

Short form, if you're using d20 Modern or Star Wars Revised's Weak/Average/Good saves (the first and last the same as D&D3's), Basic defense is weak progression +3, Intermediate is average progression +4, and Master is good progression +5.

EDIT: So it doesn't get hidden a page back

Intermediate Defense

Level	Bonus	Level	Bonus
1	+5	11	+9
2	+6	12	+10
3	+6	13	+10
4	+6	14	+10
5	+7	15	+11
6	+7	16	+11
7	+8	17	+12
8	+8	18	+12
9	+8	19	+12
10	+9	20	+13

[Blinkin]

So, does Wren get a AC bonus automatically, or was this something that I shoulda known about when creating the character and it's gone now? Still confused, but oh well, nothing new about that.

[greenknight]

One player is looking to use the rules which begs the question of whether we all are. As much as I'd love that for Cail (kicking his AC up a lot), I recommended requiring feats to do it.

Adopting the UA unarmored defense rules would give Wren a +5 bonus to AC that doesn't stack with armor bonuses.

UA charts and rules are here.

[kongming]

I don't have enough feats for everything I want as it is. If a feat were required, I would probably swap from Moon Elf Cleric to Sun Elf Wizard, and just go all-out offence/self-boosting, "go get your healing and passive bonuses elsewhere".

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, three feats is harsh for AC bonus while unarmored. The GUCK or BoEF feats need just 2 feats to get charisma bonus to AC while scantily clothed.

Also there is Harper Priest PrC which adds charisma to AC and has other perks (Magic of Faerun pg29).

It's just that if we use plain rule change to AC by using class defense bonus it means all players present need edit their sheets. If everyone is okay with it (including spell selection changes), then there should be no problems to add it in. I myself would be fine with it.

[kongming]

Even two feats is too much. Remember that excluding bonus feats, a D&D character gets 7 feats over their entire life. A Wizard gets 40+ ten thousand spells known. A nonhuman fighter with Int ten still gets 46 skill points at the end of their career. Feats are so few that every time someone suggests one, you need to compare it to feats like Leadership, or a good Metamagic Feat.

Now if it causes problems for everyone, I don't have to take the option. I only have to take the option if I'm playing a Cleric.

[Blinkin]

I hate trying to rework characters in the middle of a game, and as the effect wouldn't appreciately change the AC to begin with, don't see any point in looisng feats to do it.

If you want to go unarmored, there's always bracers of defense and so on, but as mentioned, unlike Pathfinder with it's 10 feats in 20 levels, D&D only gives you 7 and unless you are going to use nearly all of them for a character's concept to get a specific result at level 20 dealing with AC, it just takes up more than it's worth for the result.

[kongming]

Regular non-magical full plate costs 1-2K. That's +8 Armour (and +0 against Touch Attacks, ie, undead). To get the same +8 (+0), Bracers of Armour would cost 640,000GP.
The fact is, if you want a good AC, your options are literally:
A) Wear Full Plate and carry a Tower Shield
B) Be a Charisma-based caster (so you start with an 18 Charisma and it gets better from there) and blow 2-3 feats as needed on CHA to AC
C) Use the Unarmoured Defence rules
D) Polymorph into something that has a Natural Armour Bonus of +$TEXAS
E) Homebrew something like Frank & K's Dungeonomicon Monk

So honestly, I can make it easier on everyone by just going level 8 druid (and thus being 2 polar bears 24 hours per day) or being Wizardly and flooding the battlefield in acid fog, walls of fire, acidic sludge, napalm sludge, masses of glue...

[Zaer Darkwail]

Shield of Faith spell gives nice AC bonus and often times you can avoid harm by using spells make you untargetable (sanctuary, invisibility). Also overall I would say despite your AC the monsters may hit you (so +8 or +0 makes no difference in long run).

Also Adrian can summon meat shields to block people coming to him (and as conjurer he has solid fog and other battlefield control or swap allies spots). Illussion domain is one domain slots given to clerics of Sehanine Moonbow, so by becoming contemplative you can get it and so get means protect yourself from harm better (besides using cleric spells boost your AC).

Also your archer; your main point is to stay out of melee anyway :P. But if you feel optimization that important, you can roll up druid. We got plenty arcanists already so it would be nice to have variety (even in caster types).

[kongming]

Honestly, archery was my back-up for when enemies were too far away. But when I put Shield of Faith up, then most CR 8 monsters in the PHB actually needed a 15+ to hit me, I ran the math. Add in the possibility for Chaos Devotion to sometimes give me up to +3 AC and it meant I actually could avoid things. Even most incorporeal touch attacks.

Anyway, I'm still surly about having been made redundant at work (the reason why I have all this free time in the first place). I'm contemplating just not joining, dropping off E altogether for a while and just filling my free time with alcoholism instead.

[Nicolae]

For now, let's not use Unarmored Defense rules. I hate causing kongming to abandon a character idea, but I'd hate even more to cause everyone to reconfigure their character sheets mid-game. It seems like "unarmored defense" is taken into account with losing the Max Dex Bonus imposed by armor. Someone with a high Dex can either put on armor that provides an AC bonus and squashes their Dex bonus to AC or remove the armor which makes them lose their armor bonus to AC but regain their Dex bonus (without an armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, etc.).

@kongming: I'm in a similar situation, and have been for the past seven months (culminating in interviewing for my old job when the position reopened, which they gave to someone else -- stay out of Education). The important thing is that you don't make the situation worse. Stay motivated and stay positive.

[Blinkin]

I feel for your redundant position situation. Try to stay positive and if you have to step down a level to get employment, think of it as temporary. Remember that you do have skills and experience, and that counts fr a lot.

I could say that I've been unemployed for 14 years, but it's not exactly true. I've been effectively unemployable for 14 years. I have everything I need to get a job, but the state won't let me be profitable and have a level of living more than 2/3rd's the poverty level...

Character wise, I've never been a min/maxer and optimization has never appealed to me. I tend to just  come up with a character concept that I like and go with it and what makes sense for the character. If he/she has an AC of 14, that's what he/she has. It just means that I have to work harder to not get hit and makes me consider more creative tactics. You can certainly play whatever you like and create however you want, but if it took a 20 to hit you and the DM wants you to be hit, you'll be surprised how many 20's he can produce, so I don't worry too much about it.

[Xanatos]

Take a level in Monk and go the rest Cleric. You can stack a Monk's Wisdom bonus with Dex mod and magical items, thus shaving off some feats and some coin. Plus you gain 4+Int mod x4 skill points, if you take Monk at 1st level, then go Cleric. Plus, you gain a +2 to Reflex saves. Not amazing, but handy when needed. And you get a bonus feat.

I would argue however, that AC is basically pointless against most monsters. Its been my experience that most base/average monsters, in the MM, are designed to be able to hit most AC that players can put up through the varying levels. Its only if a player specifically stacks AC with the intent of not getting hit, that it works - sometimes. But then this creates an imbalance, no different than having a Monster PC in the party. Someone becomes to strong/weak, and when the GM tries to compensate, the challenges become either too hard or too easy for the rest of the party.

AC is a mechanic which is broken, as in does not work. I'd focus more on what will your character do RP-wise, and what she can contribute to stopping/killing monsters when combat happens.


Sorry to hear that Kongming. While I'm not unemployed myself, I feel rather stuck at the moment. I want to move on to do my own thing or into a career, but can't do either for various reasons. Thus being stuck at a job that is changing around me. Not fun.

[kongming]

I optimise because when a character dies, you don't have many roleplaying opportunities left. Also, I want fights to be over quickly so I can move onto more fun things.

Anyway, between the astoundingly bad advice given here ("Spend all of your money on a very small AC bonus!", "Set all your feats on fire!", "Lose a caster level by taking a level in Monk, a character class so awful that people are embarrassed to write it on their sheet!") and the fact that there are people elsewhere on E that I want to avoid, I'm going to go ahead with the "drop off of the site and just fill my time with solitary hobbies" plan. Take care, all, just make sure one of you has ranks in Abuse Magic Device and buy a bunch of Wands of Lesser Vigour for the party healing.

[Nicolae]

Well, that's that, then.

Xanatos and kimmy, go ahead and post your characters on the Character Thread and we'll work you into the game shortly.
https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=188672.0

[Xanatos]

Thanks for the invite.

[Nicolae]

Recruiting again! Looking for 2-3 characters, at least one or two of which need to be combat oriented.

Read the first and second posts in this thread (way back on page one) as well as the In Character game thread to catch up on the setting and the story.

Post any questions about character creation here.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Combat this case mostly means physical sort combatant (and tank kinda). So far got two full time active casters and swashy rogue.

[RubySlippers]

I love the FR setting I was thinking about a LN character with five levels of a Wizard specialty and three levels of Red Wizard be one of the younger generation staying away from home to hone her arts and gain magical items and wealth, wishing to avoid politics and infighting. Her and her allies promoting commerce and trade over warmongering and she would worship Waukeen.

Just bouncing off the idea.

I will note she can't be good but the prestige class leaves non-evil as an option, and they are cool.

[Nicolae]

I like the idea. It's a little similar to another character we've got, though. What's the core part of the character that you found interesting? I might be able to suggest another class that keeps that theme going.

[RubySlippers]

Well the idea of a merchant favored Red Wizard but there are options lets see how about this:

Bard with the Divine Bard Option [in Thay an Arcane Bard has issues, serving a deity is another situation even the Red Wizards won't offend the divine powers] to Level 5 then ...

Merchant Prince http://dndtools.eu/classes/merchant-prince/

Serving Waukeen a deity active in Thay.

I figure it would be fun being Thayan and this character won't be good or evil so should get along with many people. Her Guild will likely be either Government (be an agent for the Red Wizards cutting deals for magic items) OR Religious (Waukeen with hands everywhere she can broker loans and promote deals).

[Nicolae]

I could see that working. She'd have a vested interest in protecting Waterdeep since her guild would see it as a valuable city for trade along the Sword Coast. If everyone dies, there's no money to be made, even if she's not likely to sacrifice herself to save others' lives.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, Red Wizards may shrug off about deities but Kossuth is one their major deities (actual political power in Thay, a alternative choice actually). Kossuth is also True Neutral so you can be easily divine bard for it (although bards cannot be lawful aligned unless Calrond rules otherwise for divine bards).

Red Wizards have Mulhorandi origins, so they do have some small sects of Mulhorandi deities and there is one dock city which is known as 'city of thousand temples' where is temple for every deity; Mulhorandi and western deities like Cyric, Bane, Waukeen, Tyr. There are strict laws against conflict between churches as conflict disturbs city's slave trade (which is major trade line in there).

But even if you go neutral merchant route as Thayan, expect people dislike you or suspect being Red Wizard spy. Thay has bad reputation like zhents do have in the west (even if said zhents are not part of Black Network).

But besides country of origins, divine bard serving Waukeen is workable concept.

[Nicolae]

She could be an incognito trader and Merchant Princess for the Red Wizards, at least while her disguise lasts.

That being said, RubySlippers, you could also be a trader from a less hated group of people and it would make dealing with many people much easier.

[RubySlippers]

Actually her Guild will be the Church of Waukeen and she is Thayan as in a more common one not a Red Wizard as her birthplace, so I don't see an issue the faith only has one enemy which is the Church of Mask. I figure she can broker all kinds of goods and services of a financial nature as options.