Some racism-related questions

Started by Beorning, August 18, 2018, 11:27:31 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Beorning

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two specific questions related to the issue of racism, cultural appropriation etc. Please note that I'm not asking these questions to argue, just wondering about your opinions.

1. Skin colour in cosplay

Some days ago, I saw a rather heated argument on the Facebook page of Pugoffka, an Ukrainian cosplayer. She has cosplayed as many different characters and, recently, she released some photos with her cosplays from the Avatar: The Last Airbender universe. In these photos, she used some photomanipulation to give herself Asian and Indian skin colours - which caused many people to accuse her of racism, using blackface and disrespect. What's your opinion: is it okay for a white person to change skin colour for the purposes of cosplay or not?

2. Straight hair and black women

A personal question (which, I hope, won't come off as disrespectul): I admit that when it comes to black women, I find it more appealing when they have straight hair. I'm absolutely not saying that natural black hair are somehow bad / ugly / unprofessional - I have no problem with them. It's just that, speaking purely of what appeals to me as a man, I find straight hair more attractive.  Heck, it's not limited to black women - I prefer straight hair on white women, too. Still, is it really okay? Or is it racist after all?

midnightblack

I have to admit that my simple mind cannot comprehend what manner of convoluted thought process could possibly lead anyone to consider either point as exemplifying racist behavior. Neither fits in any way the definition of racism, not even remotely.
The Midnight Lodge (O2 thread & completed tales compendium)
Thy Nightly Chambers (requests) updated!
Zerzura (albeit short, the best collaborative story I've ever completed here)


Skynet

Question 1:

Looks at last link

Oh boy, using an outdated dictionary definition while ignoring the other 4+ definitions already kicking around.

Going to drop this here: https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=260901.0

So the thing is that given varying definitions of racism, it is possible to logically argue that something is or is not racist depending on which one you're using.

If a cosplayer does blackface but does not believe that skin color is linked to mental and moral qualities, then by that oft-used definition in the dictionary they are not racist. But that would be intellectually dishonest, as that is not what is being argued at the moment.

But in the USA, light-skinned actors using make-up to affect a darker skin tone has been almost 100% been used to portray African-Americans as either buffoons or villains.

As for the Malaysian Japanese soldier cosplay is trotted out as an example of cultural differences and...it's actually relevant. I don't know the history of how black or non-Roma dark-skinned people are treated in Poland. And when skin-altering make-up is discussed in cosplay, it's almost always discussed in regards to white people cosplaying as African-Americans, and not other races.

As for Indian and East Asian skin tones, I do not know how much that is akin to blackface. Indians and East Asians living in Eastern Europe would be the best people to answer this question on account that they would be the most directly affected than USians and others.

Also skimming the article, but something tells me that the writer is not arguing in good faith.

QuoteIf we were to operate by that concept, wouldn’t that mean that no one would be allowed to post pictures of pigs, pork or any pig-related products because there are literally millions of Muslims out there who might feel that it is offensive? Then would I be not allowed to share LGBTQ-related articles or images just because it offends millions out there?

However, that doesn’t mean that everything is off the hook. Take misleading articles for example. If I were to write a misleading article with the intention to mislead others or spread fake information, I would be in the wrong because I’ve objectively caused harm or distress by spreading fake information or misleading others.

Appeal to Extreme Logical fallacy. Also, Muslims do not find the existence of pork offensive on a Kryptonite-esque level. In fact, Muslims believe that all beings that breathe have a soul. They merely believe that the faithful should not eat pork and other "forbidden foods."



Beorning

So, what's your opinion? Is it racist to change skin colour in cosplay or not? I honestly don't know what to think about it...

Skynet

Quote from: Beorning on August 18, 2018, 02:36:40 PM
So, what's your opinion? Is it racist to change skin colour in cosplay or not? I honestly don't know what to think about it...

I can't say for certain. This is kind of outside my field of usual expertise.

I feel that there's a world of difference between the freakish charcoal-black-with-clown-lips of minstrel shows than say a spray-tan for a cosplay, but I'd probably also have to see the specific pictures in question. The only one I could find was the one in the Magic Rain article on the Facebook post from Pugoffka herself.

Even within social justice communities in the USA at least there's a bit of blinders on in regards to this. When Johnny Depp did the same thing to portray himself as an Apache man in the Lone Ranger, there was not much outcry from the same people, possibly because the movie directors consulted with real Apache tribes who were for the most part okay with their portrayal in the movie (or at least what I heard). And there was not as much hue and cry when Ken Jeong, an actor of Korean descent, played a Chinese character in the Hangover*; this is racebending/whitewashing rather than X-face, but the two are often held as similar examples of issues.

*East Asians overall regard each other as akin to being different races

Skynet

DP: I should probably add that it depends on the context, the local culture and how said culture treats the aforementioned minority groups, as well as the voices of the ethnic groups being represented. The last part is particularly important: in many cases there are times when white people would talk over actual minorities on what is and isn't offensive to them, or US folk with those of other nationalities, in social justice circles.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Skynet on August 18, 2018, 02:55:59 PM
I can't say for certain. This is kind of outside my field of usual expertise.

I feel that there's a world of difference between the freakish charcoal-black-with-clown-lips of minstrel shows than say a spray-tan for a cosplay, but I'd probably also have to see the specific pictures in question. The only one I could find was the one in the Magic Rain article on the Facebook post from Pugoffka herself.

Agree, I really don't see how a person donning some cosmetic tan to imitate Barack Obama or Kim Kardashian in a comedy/revue skit, or for a dress-up party, is anywhere near classic blackfacing as it occurred in minstrel shows or early Hollywood movies. It's not the same kind of thing at all, and branding tanned comedy make-up as racist is shooting way over the goal. But unfortunately, those who are the most simple-minded about things like this tend to be the ones who are shouting the loudest and setting up the strictest demands to make everybody else obey them.  >:(

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

The Lovely Tsaritsa

Quote from: Skynet on August 18, 2018, 12:41:09 PM
Clarification: When I said "Poland," I meant the Ukraine.

It is only “Ukraine”. The “The”, it’s not needed.

Mathim

Quote from: Beorning on August 18, 2018, 11:27:31 AM
If you don't mind, I'd like to ask two specific questions related to the issue of racism, cultural appropriation etc. Please note that I'm not asking these questions to argue, just wondering about your opinions.

1. Skin colour in cosplay

Some days ago, I saw a rather heated argument on the Facebook page of Pugoffka, an Ukrainian cosplayer. She has cosplayed as many different characters and, recently, she released some photos with her cosplays from the Avatar: The Last Airbender universe. In these photos, she used some photomanipulation to give herself Asian and Indian skin colours - which caused many people to accuse her of racism, using blackface and disrespect. What's your opinion: is it okay for a white person to change skin colour for the purposes of cosplay or not?

2. Straight hair and black women

A personal question (which, I hope, won't come off as disrespectul): I admit that when it comes to black women, I find it more appealing when they have straight hair. I'm absolutely not saying that natural black hair are somehow bad / ugly / unprofessional - I have no problem with them. It's just that, speaking purely of what appeals to me as a man, I find straight hair more attractive.  Heck, it's not limited to black women - I prefer straight hair on white women, too. Still, is it really okay? Or is it racist after all?

1. I feel like starting out by saying that when someone like Dave Chappelle or Tracy Morgan puts on a 'whiteface' style makeup to portray a Caucasian character in one of their comedy skits or shows, I think it's hilarious and helps emphasize the point they're making, so if they do it and no one gets upset, I personally feel inclined to call it a double standard if someone of lighter skin does the corollary but gets criticized for it. That being said, I don't see anything inherently racist about doing so for cosplay but I do feel it's an unnecessary step since it doesn't necessarily have any other context in the way that a social commentary satire does. The clothing and accessories should be sufficient for purely cosplay situations. Now that you mention this sort of thing, I'm actually more interested in what lengths a person would go in portraying a character who is the opposite sex of what they are; outside of cosmetic surgery, how inclined are they to, and how are they going to make themselves look more masculine or feminine to really play the part? And if they do, by the same token (pun intended), is it sexist? But that's a whole different can of worms...anyway, like I said, I feel it's wasteful and unnecessary but I wouldn't call it racist. The motivation behind it is so far removed from any such bigoted sentiments that it really makes it seem like anyone who would call it that is being oversensitive. That's just my two cents.

2. I don't think singling hair out is relevant. Some people are only attracted to certain shades of skin, for instance, so whatever your proclivities are, you're not entirely in control of how you feel about certain things. Conditioning in a cultural context is relevant of course but when you're exposed to that in your youth and end up with one type of preference, you weren't exactly given free reign over what things settled in your subconscious, so anyone hypothetically asking you to expand your horizons in this way isn't taking that into consideration and probably hasn't done much self-reflection in that way. You could probably make yourself feel more attracted to certain aesthetic things with enough effort but it's not your fault for having your subconscious preferences as they are and so you should be free to decide whether you put in that kind of work and not be judged for it if you don't feel like initiating that kind of change. I happen to dislike blonde hair for the most part and tend to largely prefer darker hair or redheads. But rather than avoiding it, I have slowly warmed up to it, though it's still ranking-wise my least favorite. So even if you can see yourself growing accustomed to it, it can still be the least-favorite even if you can honestly say you 'like' something. Not everyone has the time or right means to help themselves try to do this, though, so no one should feel obligated to. I wasn't even trying deliberately and there are still things about it I don't just dislike, but HATE, so it's not exactly perfect even then. But I don't want a pat on the back for doing that, nor a scolding for not, and no one else should have to either. Ugh, I'm tired...need sleep. If that came off as incoherent, that's probably why.
Considering a permanent retirement from Elliquiy, but you can find me on Blue Moon (under the same username).

gaggedLouise

Quote from: The Lovely Tsarina on August 18, 2018, 08:21:17 PM
It is only “Ukraine”. The “The”, it’s not needed.

For some reason I often say/write "the Ukraine" too (in English), not sure why. Point taken from you, a native Russian. :)

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

RedPhoenix

Pretty much every cosplayer of color always says don't change your skin tone to play a part - provided that skin tone appears in humans.

The reason for this is there is a long, horrible, awful history of blackface in entertainment and by refusing to take part in that you're disavowing and distancing yourself from that legacy. It would be nice to live in a dream world where that legacy is long past and racism doesn't exist, but we don't live there - especially in America and Europe.

So no, it doesn't necessarily make you a racist to do that (although there are certainly racists who do that, google just about anytime a college fraternity gets in trouble for having a blackface party) but it does make you an insensitive jerk who prioritizes your own giggles over being aware of the world you live in and respecting the people you share it with. I would suggest drawing a line at "racist" and "okay" is a pretty low bar to set and you can do better, tbh. 

There is also a difference between cosplay and comedy. Nobody really gave Robert Downey Jr. grief for wearing blackface in Tropic Thunder either, but if he'd done the same to his skin and gone out as Obama for Halloween yeah that would have been offensive. In both the example about Chapelle and Downey Jr, the absurdity of it is part of the comedy. Dave Chapelle didn't lighten his skin to portray a typical white person he did it to play a racial exaggeration of a white person for comedic effect. Cosplayers aren't, hopefully, playing racial exaggerations for comedic effect (and if they are then yes they're just being racist).

There's also a difference between something an individual does in private v. something Hollywood pays people to do, but that's a long sidetrack diversion and the only real point here is that the analogy isn't a great one.

Regarding preferences. That's a really tricky one. The short answer is no, your preferences don't make you racist unless a judgment based on race is part of them.

But I read stuff like that and I remember the studies done on black kids before schools were integrated, about how they all preferred white dolls to black ones because they believed the white skin was better. This was all back when everyone preached 'separate but equal' and it was a farce, the doll test demonstrated it more starkly than anything else. If you did the same test on white kids, I'm sure you'd have gotten the same result - the more white the doll looks the more desirable it is.

Beauty standards really haven't changed much. It's only recently that girls of color even have makeup that matches most of their skin tones (and even now its really limited in brands). It's only recently that more natural hairstyles are accepted as normal and not some outrageous personality choice. Beauty standards in America and Europe are still very Eurocentric and a lot of people, not just white ones, are raised to think those ideals are the best.

I used to exclusively like straight hair on black girls too. It looks good on them. But is that because I was raised thinking long straight hair was feminine and beautiful? Or is it a genuine preference of mine? How much can we separate that? Is it possible?  I do know that the more time I spent in my life with black girls the more I appreciated other hair styles, now to the point that there is really no one style I think is best. Was that just a change in my preferences? Or did being social with a diverse crowd open my eyes and chip away at what I was taught? Who can say, it's bigger than just one person's experiences.

So the short answer is no, you aren't racist for having a preference, any preference even one that's as blatant as preferring a skin color over another, but do be aware that these preferences aren't isolated from how you're brought up and how you live your life. What you do with that is up to you, but it's something to think about.
Apologies & Absences | Ons & Offs
I move the stars for no one.

Blythe

Regarding the cosplay portion of the question: This makes me uncomfortable. Then again, I don't know what the cultural situation in Ukraine is about cosplaying. I'm more familiar with USA cosplay.

USA-wise, I know of several black cosplayers, all women, who dared to cosplay as canonically white characters (they didn't alter their own skin tone), and they were harassed mercilessly and bombarded with racial slurs. I know of at least one friend of mine who stopped cosplaying altogether over this issue because she couldn't take the bullying any more. All because bigots in cosplay felt that it shouldn't be permissible for black people to cosplay white characters. Those same people, the harassers, would argue vehemently for white cosplayers to darken their skin for cosplay.

I'd be less uncomfortable with a white person doing what Pugoffka did if I knew black women weren't going to get harassed any more for cosplaying whatever race they want to.

RedRose

European people will be less sensitive to this, for better or for worse.
I know blackface is a BIG issue in America, and not so much around here. I also know hair is sensitive in America (braids on white girls, straight on black girls) while here my black friends would fight to braid my hair :)
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]



Eye of Horus

Quote from: Blythe on August 19, 2018, 01:13:41 PMUSA-wise, I know of several black cosplayers, all women, who dared to cosplay as canonically white characters (they didn't alter their own skin tone), and they were harassed mercilessly and bombarded with racial slurs.

This is very sad. It’s the same sort of nasty white-protectionism that came out when a vocal minority of people questioned (or outright complained) why a black actress was being cast as Hermione Granger in the Harry Potter play, or as Ru in The Hunger Games.

Regarding the questions:

1) While a cosplayer might mean well, there’s no real justification for altering your features / skin tone and being seen as insensitive (due to the historical baggage around blackface etc, already well discussed by posters above) when you can be perfectly recognisable from the outfit alone. Plenty of cosplayers already do this, or genderswitch characters. If Hamilton can use an entire cast of POC and still make a damn good musical, then it can’t be so hard to give your interpretation of a fictional character. Fictional characters surely don’t “belong” exclusively to one group of people - and to flip it around, that also means that a non-black person who likes the character of, say, Blade or Black Panther shouldn’t have to feel banned from cosplaying them either.

2) You, personally, find straight hair more attractive than curly hair. There’s nothing inherently racist about that.

RedRose

I personally like each character to present as "canon" (book, or whatever). I want the queen of Sheba to be black, I want Newton to be white… If the story calls for an entirely, white, black, Indian cast (I watched many Indian movies when I was there even though I didn't understand a thing), so be it. Same about an entirely male cast (Ten angry men) or female cast (8 femmes).
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]



Twisted Crow

The questions I once posed to a friend cosplayer was on cosplaying as a character like Blade from Marvel Comics:

"Can I blackface as Blade? If not... is it unfortunate that I can't cosplay as a "white" Blade without people thinking that I am some generic, tossed aside extra in The Matrix? Or if they recognize the accessories and think "Ah... a White Blade!" instead of just Blade? Is Blade really defined by his flesh as opposed to his half-human, half-vampire blood?" I can't help but wonder, as I am not even sure myself.

This one african american chick that got harassed in her D.Va cosplay (Overwatch) and past debates on 'Cultural Appropriation' comes to mind. Some of you might remember this gal. I liked her, her dedication to detail was impressive to me. She loved the character, but was harassed on social media by assholes who insisted only white cosplayers can "be her" (Meanwhile, D.Va is Korean). She received comments like 'N.Ga" and other unnecessary insults to someone that is a part of their own fandom.

I felt bad for her (and not surprised at all by the quality of Blizzard's fanbase). I mean... fucking let her be D.Va... You know? But I remember she had a problem with blackfacing, where I think to my Blade situation. If I were to cosplay as Blade... who would recognize me as Blade? Who would recognize me as T'challa (Black Panther)?

It still makes me think, actually.

Twisted Crow

Double post, sorry... but forgot something.

As for hair and "cultural appropriation" I feel that one does not "own" hairstyles. NBA Point Guard Jeremy Lin comes to mind. A bit back, he posted his new hairstyle on social media. It was either dredlocks or cornrows or something like that. He got a lot of flak for cultural appropriation, particularly from some the black community. Meanwhile, we have people in every race sporting asian (Korean, Japanese kanji, Chinese pinyin) tattoos. But Jeremy Lin gets crapped on for trying a braided hairstyle (glossing over the fact that races all over the world have had braided styles in the past). The controversial statement I would make on "appropriation" would be that one does not own anything in culture. Culture is something of an evolving creature that is naturally shared and blended when exposed to others, even in the midst of its stark clashes from time to time.

Or rather, that is my take on it, anyway... *shrugs*

Twisted Crow

Sorry... last one. I promise. I want to add on to this "owning cultures" thing. This is helpful, as i like to talk about this among peers.

Let us look at me. I am a mutt as far as the races are concerned but culturally, I am of (apparently) mostly german decent. I am also Texan, was raised here despite not being actually born here. Texas is generally a blend of "White Hard Country Living" and "Mexican Hard Country Living" (for... eh, lack of better terms). Our food blends between country dish and mexican dish (breeding what we call "Tex-Mex"). Country music is often something we attribute to Texas (though it is a big thing in most southern states).

Let us take a look at (perhaps my favorite singing voice of all time) Darius Rucker from Hootie and the Blowfish. His music has a lot of country inspiration. Hell, he was sued by Bob Dillon for perhaps having too much inspiration in one of his songs. But I digress. My point on Darius Rucker would be... do I own country music and cowboy boots? Can I tell Darius that he can't have that because it is a "White Thing"? Hell no. Nor would I even try. The man is awesome to me, if sadly something of a unicorn with that genre of music... but I do not own the culture. I cannot bar him from melding into it or taking what he likes from it. It speaks to him. Who am I to take that away from him? :-)

P.S. You can also sing any 90s song with just vowels.... :D

Skynet

Quote from: Dallas on August 24, 2018, 12:46:46 AM
Double post, sorry... but forgot something.

As for hair and "cultural appropriation" I feel that one does not "own" hairstyles. NBA Point Guard Jeremy Lin comes to mind. A bit back, he posted his new hairstyle on social media. It was either dredlocks or cornrows or something like that. He got a lot of flak for cultural appropriation, particularly from some the black community. Meanwhile, we have people in every race sporting asian (Korean, Japanese kanji, Chinese pinyin) tattoos. But Jeremy Lin gets crapped on for trying a braided hairstyle (glossing over the fact that races all over the world have had braided styles in the past). The controversial statement I would make on "appropriation" would be that one does not own anything in culture. Culture is something of an evolving creature that is naturally shared and blended when exposed to others, even in the midst of its stark clashes from time to time.

Or rather, that is my take on it, anyway... *shrugs*

Cultural appropriation, in its modern trend in the USA, originated from two specific phenomena. Of the broader white WASP culture taking elements of Native American religious practices, and art and fashion from African-Americans.

Native Americans, having undergone genocide, forced sterilizations as late as the 1970s, and to this day religious conservatives seek to adopt their children to "rid them of the pagan ways," they understandably are very concerned when outsider cultures take their traditions and beliefs. During the 1970s there was an epidemic of "plastic shamans," aka white pseudo-mystics making stuff up about Native religion and charging people money to attain some weird nature power. There are also cases where their myths and folklore are inaccurately portrayed. A tabletop gaming sourcebook The Strange caught a lot of flak when it portrayed the Thunderbird as an evil god, while many Natives aren't fond of having their people's priests being reduced to "nature mages" or treated as cultural monoliths.

In regards to African-Americans, the United States has a long history of demonizing black culture as degenerate, but become suddenly accepted when a white artist adopts their trends. There were many famous black rock and roll artists Elvis Presley took inspiration from, but they were denied the opportunities to appear on radio, promote their music, etc. In regards to braids, dreadlocks, and curly hairstyles, those aren't exclusively sub-Saharan in origin (many Indian Hindus have dreadlocks) but traditionally many jobs and public areas of the United States banned said hairstyles and instead expected African-Americans to wear their hair straight. Which is impossible for some of them beyond wearing weaves or literally ironing out their hair into straight patterns.

So in both cases, Native Americans and African-Americans get justifiably upset when a dominant society takes the very things that were denied and suppressed, only for it to become okay or warped in tradition without proper acknowledgement of the original creators.

Its original use was in regards to a dominant culture taking elements in an otherwise disrespectful manner from a minority culture.Unfortunately, the "cultural appropriation" tag has taken many different meanings. Some SJ advocates (and more than a few right-wing ethnic nationalists) like you mentioned take the logical extremes of "people from ethnicity X should not wear/adopt/dress things from ethnicity Y," presuming that all traditions are akin to Native American religions in things not to adopt. A useful measure I learned in talking with individuals from minority cultures in regards to appropriation of their culture is basically:

1.) Is it religious in connotation?
2.) Is it part of something meant for outsiders?
3.) Is it being used to demonize or mock us?
4.) Is the original culture/creator being acknowledged and respected?

The question then should be if it's being done out of respect or not. I don't see people getting bent out of shape when Pakistani Muslims name their son Mohammad, which is itself an Arab name. Well, nobody rational, anyway.

In regards to the main subject, "cultural appropriation" is an entirely separate issue from black/brown/yellowface in that minstrel shows were a part of white US culture, not black. Conflating the two is harmful, and likely intellectually dishonest; it may sound paranoid, but I'd even hazard that part of it may be done by reactionary groups who seek to make the public.

Skynet

Edit: In regards to the main subject, "cultural appropriation" is an entirely separate issue from black/brown/yellowface in that minstrel shows were a part of white US culture, not black. Conflating the two is harmful, and likely intellectually dishonest; it may sound paranoid, but I'd even hazard that part of it may be done by reactionary groups who seek to make the public think that the term "cultural appropriation" is an utterly meaningless phrase without merit.

Twisted Crow

Those are fair points to crunch on, actually. I forgot to mention that this was more of a developing personal philosophy as apposed to a grounded or established theory. That would have been important, but I imagine you could deduce that for yourself. :-)

The gist of it is two parts, mainly: One, speculation on whether or not the issue of cultural appropriation is over-exaggerated in today's culture; perpetuated by missed/omitted/distorted messages used by various people over a period of time (the natural case with colliquialism, basically). Two, my personal attempts to bring an objective balance to culture and race relations. As you might see, it is not a perfect development.

One flaw I missed (glad you mentioned Natives, by the way) is, in a sense, a given culture can also be "killed" or brought near extinction (as has happened with the Native Americans), instead of 'melding, blending or evolving naturally' with adjacent cultures of contrast. This was on my mind last night, but figured I would wait before a 4th post. That part isn't quite as developed in my mind, yet... either. There are aspects to it that overlook important naunces and elements that I feel carry a progressive outlook to race relations in general.  :-\

Unrelated... we could use a "sage/thinking face" emote.

Skynet

Quote from: The Lovely Tsarina on August 18, 2018, 08:21:17 PM
It is only “Ukraine”. The “The”, it’s not needed.

I know this is a delayed response, but thank you for the clarification. It's frequently said that way in the US, although I didn't realize at the time its negative connotations.

Quote from: Dallas on August 24, 2018, 05:46:23 PM
Those are fair points to crunch on, actually. I forgot to mention that this was more of a developing personal philosophy as apposed to a grounded or established theory. That would have been important, but I imagine you could deduce that for yourself. :-)

The gist of it is two parts, mainly: One, speculation on whether or not the issue of cultural appropriation is over-exaggerated in today's culture; perpetuated by missed/omitted/distorted messages used by various people over a period of time (the natural case with colliquialism, basically). Two, my personal attempts to bring an objective balance to culture and race relations. As you might see, it is not a perfect development.

One flaw I missed (glad you mentioned Natives, by the way) is, in a sense, a given culture can also be "killed" or brought near extinction (as has happened with the Native Americans), instead of 'melding, blending or evolving naturally' with adjacent cultures of contrast. This was on my mind last night, but figured I would wait before a 4th post. That part isn't quite as developed in my mind, yet... either. There are aspects to it that overlook important naunces and elements that I feel carry a progressive outlook to race relations in general.  :-\

Unrelated... we could use a "sage/thinking face" emote.

Happy to add to the discussion! :)

Alas, I don't have much else to add to the convo at the moment.

RedRose

Many countries have "the". Ukraine doesn't ;) That said if someone said the France, I wouldn't be hurt, just correct. Interestingly in French MOST countries have "the" which includes Ukraine. And France. Israel doesn't. Monaco doesn't. MMmm.

Thanks for explaining about cultural appropriation. As a French, this isn't talked about and people just borrow whatever… I have seen black/white face at carnivales and we don't seem to consider it problematic either. But we don't have this history, though, yes, Frenchmen did encounter Natives and did have slaves, still on a different scale.

I have heard that more American Native (that's the right word, right? In French we say "indien", or "Indien d'Amérique" which is incorrect but) youngsters have their traditional coming of age celebration, and that's good!
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]