DND 3.5 all Wizard Game

[Miroque]

But that's my point - you don't need those fancy spells or abilities, or a lack of them, so level 1, level 5, and level 9001 all offer equally in terms of in-character personality wise. What you can or cannot do mechanically has absolutely no bearing on roleplay or characterization ability; all low-level does is save mechanical work for people who don't like system RPs.

Actually, taken 3.5ed system, all things magical break the system when levels start to stack up. In low levels things are balanced as mages/clerics/druids dont have means to withstand punishement, where say, level 5, mage can cast Suggestion = spell that totally makes fighter suck, + sick amount of lesser spells, that make fighter useless...
Conjurer (being the most powerful combat mage) can easily blast fighters in lv1 aswell.. if build to combat..
Thats why I like lowlevel games.. so that mages "dont win the game" with few save or win spells...

[TheGlyphstone]

 There's no denying that full casters/manifesters of any sort are broken in 3.5 once you approach level 10 or so, but they're overpowered even before then if you do it right. You point out Suggestion at level 5 for a save-or-lose vs. the Fighter, consider Color Spray at Level 1 - also a save-or-lose vs. the Fighter, and relative to its level, a more powerful one...it's an AoE spell that can hit multiple people, and can actually cause that fighter to die; unconscious creatures are vulnerable to a Coup De Grace insta-kill, where the worst you can do to someone under a Suggestion is make them stop hitting you, or do something nice. Furthermore, balance is only really relevant in between party members - it's not that a Wizard can cast Suggestion and knock out the Fighter, it's that he can cast Fly and Wind Wall and be invincible to any monster who can't also fly, or cast Fireball and kill entire swarms of enemies in a single hit, or cast Solid Fog and effectively paralyze a group of enemies (or cast Solid Fog, then enjoy several consecutive turns of Fireballs against an enemy who can't counterattack him without magic of their own). All a fighter can do is hit things. As an entire party of wizards, we're all equally powerful (or overpowerful, depending on perspective), and thus the DM can simply ramp up the difficulty of fights.

All that ranting aside, Liking low-levels for their power differential is valid (incidentally, that's why I love the E6 variant - 6th level is probably the single most balanced level in the game in terms of class differentials, and gives everyone a distinctive 'trick' that defines them), but that has nothing to do with the roleplaying, which was your initial claim. Any archtype or character you could play at 1st level, you could play at 5th level or higher, unless "dies to a single dagger stab" is considered an archtype.

[Frelance]

Should we wait DM/GM to lay down the rules of Char-creation or..?

I don't see why we don't decided how we want to create characters. It could speed things along then when the DM is picked we can show the characters and if changes need to be made we can easily do them.

[TheGlyphstone]

I don't see why we don't decided how we want to create characters. It could speed things along then when the DM is picked we can show the characters and if changes need to be made we can easily do them.

Except we can't even agree what level to start at, which is kind of the most important detail. Now, I have no issue with making multiple characters - say, a 1st level, 5th level, and 7th level...but I expect to be in the minority there.

[Frelance]

Except we can't even agree what level to start at, which is kind of the most important detail. Now, I have no issue with making multiple characters - say, a 1st level, 5th level, and 7th level...but I expect to be in the minority there.

Ya, true. I say we go with level five just so that everyone has their specialized spells. I agree with you that we can have a good roleplay element with at any level.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Is there spot? Or is the half-elf necromancer twin spot confirmed (myself always wanted play necromancer nor mind form shared background with someone)?

Anycase I find it fun if whole campaign focus on epic wizards apprentices, specifically specialist school wizard group. As it kind of creates openign for dynamic teamwork; evoker focus blast things, conjurer/necromancer focus create meatshields (and necromancer can be really scary with few spells as foe disabler or outright 'save or die' spells).

But question; would Master Specialist be allowed from Complete Mage? You can qualify for the PrC after 3th level (or 2th level if you pick feat which allows use 2th level spell once per day). After 10 levels in PrC you need only one feat to qualify for Archmage PrC.

Edit; nvm, as I see your still looking GM and nothing is set in stone yet :P. But I wish good luck with the game and I am still curious for necromancer spot. Also I agree 5th level or 7th would be suitable starting range. Also what comes 'blasting' power or such with mages it depends entirely how they use their spells and what are forbidden schools. Wizards can run out spells quickly if foes resistant against them. So higher level just offers higher curve to survive encounter with lot tough monsters.

[Cerebellum von Doom]

No news quite yet, but its been a busy week.  As for the Necromancer, yes it is spoken for.

[TheGlyphstone]

1) Either/or, or maybe both? I can see a game set in a mage's college, with frequent excursions into dungeons for material component gathering, dares, whatever, to have a lot of potential fun.

2) I have way too much time on my hands. Every other day or so would probably be the best reasonable demand I can make.

3) Can there be a middle ground? I prefer system to freeform, so I'd like my stats to actually mean something when it comes down to it. If this is meant to be "how much combat" question...combat just gives us access to more magic, so levels-as-the-plot-demands are best.

4) Wizards are plenty powerful in core - core plus say, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage, and Spell Compendium would be all we'd ever need for an all-wizards game even with supplements.

5) Ambivalent.

[Frelance]

When we were talking about this in the beginning the idea was for us all to be apprentices to the same wizard so I think a party-based is what we will need but at the same time a bit of the free agent aspect is always nice to have.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, not seen necromancer player post here and assume spot could be open. So I answer my part questions (or if maybe some random spot as pure generalist wizard with no specialization):

1) Kind of both. Like to have somesort locale/home base but same time go and do traditional adventuring around the world for searching more magic or special components for spells (necromancer going hunting in exotic graveyards for parts for animate dead experiments).

2) I can log on everyday and post often but do not ask that intense activity from others. Fine if once per day (or every two days) is progress post.

3) I prefer system also. I like stats and choosing carefully spells matter. Usually do not care for weight and exact coinage amount in my group where I GM. So part rule savy and part relaxed (but not broken) rule implementation.

4) Core books plus complete arcana, complete mage, spell compendium and magic item compendium.

5) Homebrew or established world does not matter to me much. But homebrew would give creative freedom to GM and no need for players who do not have campaign book search webs for any information about it to 'know' it.

6) I prefer party based myself, but consider number of wizards the group could be sometimes split into two parties.

[SomeGuy]

Just my rambling thoughts on stuff....

1) I actually kinda like the sound of TheGlyphstones example idea

2) I also have a lot of free time on my hands, so the more the better but whatever works for other people

3) Stats, Spell picks, etc. should all be fairly important, but past low levels being a few gold short doesn't really matter to me, encumbrance almost never matters as long as it's close (no Strength 6 carrying around a stores worth of items)

4) As an Abjurer I actually have a question about Abjurant Champion since apparently whoever wrote it was high, or just didn't care that the class does not work as it's "supposed" to.

Namely,

"Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration
spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC,
you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant
champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on mage armor,
shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor."

doesn't actually work with mage armor since it's not actually an abjuration spell currently, it's conjuration (creation). How would you rule on this?

5) Homebrew, or possible Eberron.

6) Party

[Miroque]

1.) Open to anything really, but Single location Sandbox might work best. Being apprentices to same master gives giid starting ground.
2.) 3 times a week ? (I myself can post dayly)
3.) I would like rules to boundaries, so there will not be godmoding, but to make the storyflow better, like in social situations, I would not want see ppl rolling diplomacy/bluff/intimidate/sensemotive on every sentance.. I would be cool if we could use "take 10" as basics (that way, those that are "good" in social skills, would just write their end total on bottom of the post or something, and rest would play it out)
4.) Id have to say, that allow only WotC 3.5 material.
5.) Dont have an oppinion on this, but not Eberron.. (thou I love the world, its has way too many detail levels for PbP game. Maybe an homebrew, where magic is rarity.
6.) Party based, as the starting point was apprentices to same master, but I´m rooting Sandboxing outside that. So there are things we need to do together, and then there is "freetime" to pursuit own intrests, and everyone knows that wizards cant do crap alone :)

PS: and for the starting level debate, I´m going with the flow, even I said I would love to start on level 1.. if the consensus wants other, so be it. (still trying to armwrestle GM to abide the lv1 thou...and using dirty tricks..*flashing boobs*)

[TheGlyphstone]

Well, you could always start at level 1 and spend your other 4 levels worth of XP crafting scrolls or something. Having oodles of gold brings its own RP opportunities, even if you're weak as a kitten.

[Tagan]

I have a nice wizard concept from a game that died here...

So I'll keep watching, and see if this develops.

[Cerebellum von Doom]

Overall I think we're on the right track.  What I envisioned when I proposed this game was a party-centric plot but sandbox situationals.  We're all basically apprentices to a mast Wizard.  It could be a school, and he's our senior thesis advisor...so we are actually allowed out of the tower and sent on quests to do specific tasks as part of our education.  We're competing students for the Master's favor, but at the same time are on the same side.

So what this means for rules and situationals?  I'm thinking WotC 3.5 only books.  The rules themselves are there for guidence and combat, so yes we pay attention to gold and carrying weight and such, as I feel these present a much more realistic limitation on our characters.  Basics of inventory are provided by the Wizard School/Academy/Tower, but some of the quests we go on, as a full party or even in pairs or groups, would involve finding specific artifacts for our specific wizarding specialities.  We have full character sheets for this, with skills and such, but those are a guide other than in combat or a major plot changing attempt, like creating a new spell or breaking past a trap.

Posting rate is something that can be worked out later I think, but honestly my personal schedule has me at once, maybe twice a week at best.  I work full time, and have many other responsibilities, so I am not certain I would be able to keep up with a 4 to 5 post week.

Lastly, as far as levels go, 4 or 5 seem to me to be the best option because of a bit of diversity and showing experience enough to be students nearing graduation.

As far as the Necromancer goes, the player is a personal friend of mine who is in the application process here at Elliquiy and thus has not been able to post yet.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Ahaa, ok. So no necromancer spot then. Is it be possible be a 'generalist' wizard apprentice? Meaning no specialized school but generic wizard? As there are 9 apprentices so with 10th wizard group could be split egual two 5 man teams some occassion.

[Cerebellum von Doom]

Forgot to mention there's an excellent site to host our character sheets on.  Example as follows:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=162635

[TheGlyphstone]

Pathfinder's core Wizard variants would be an excellent addition, but the game really would suffer in feel without the broad extra collection of spells that Spell Compendium, at the very least, offers. The class-specialization abilities that PF Wizards get are almost all combat-related, anyways. I wouldn't call PF rebalanced so much as overbalanced - they improved all the classes, making the weaker melee-types more fun to play without disrupting the dominance of full casters - but that's an argument for another time, and doesn't belong here (particularly since we're all full casters, and thus our relative balance to mundanes is irrelevant).

I'm still vehemently against anything lower than 5th level, but primarily for the sole reason that 5th is when I get access to Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, the lowest-level scrying spell - and scrying is, to me, what makes a divining wizard a diviner, rather than vague premonitions and fortune-telling.

For your specific points:
1) If we're going to be the only students, there's not really any point in having it be a campus or school...that'd basically be eight or nine high-level wizards, each with their own apprentice, who just share a jumbo-sized tower, when any one of them could do the tutoring independently. If we're going to be the only students, stick with the archmage...for a school type setting, there needs to be other NPC students to interact with or scheme against.

2) Following the above - I'd be in favor more of the larger city. There's more room for us to do things that matter while remaining under the radar, and having our own plots and plans to boot.


(Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage, incidentally).

[TheGlyphstone]

Animate Dead at 3rd level is ironically something I've always disagreed with as well - Clerics get it as a 3rd level spell, and so does the Dread Necromancer focus-class from Heroes of Horror. If I had to give a list of 'iconics' for magic in the core book, though..

Abjuration: Dispel Magic (3rd)
Conjuration: Summon Monster X (1st-9th)
Divination: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (3rd)
Enchantment: Charm Person (1st)
Evocation: Fireball and Lightning Bolt  :D (3rd)
Illusion: the Image line (every level up to 6th has at least one, Major Image is the first full-sensory figment at 3rd)
Necromancy: Animate Dead (4th)
Transmutation:...Polymorph (4th)...or, for non-cheese, the stat-boosting spells (2nd)

So Enchantment, Illusion, Conjuration have their 'signature moves' at 1st level, though Illusion doesn't go full force until 5th, and Summoning is a waste of time and actions until at least 3rd level. Transmutation starts actually transmuting at 3rd level (the point when they get buff spells, and when their duration starts being notable). Evocation, Divination, and Abjuration get their specialty abilities at 5th level. Poor Necromancy doesn't become iconic until 7th level (at least, for necromancers, what I believe is a legacy of necromancy being badwrongevilunfun and thus judged as harder for PCs to get).

[Tagan]

I have in mind a generalist wizard myself, or a transmuter if I need to select a specialty.

I can have a finished sheet in very little time... a few hours at most, and have a solid characitization and backstory written...

But again, I don't see a solid game here quite yet.

I'll keep watching.

[PhantomPistoleer]

I'm with Tagan.  Figuratively, literally and hopefully. Muahaha.

[Cerebellum von Doom]

Chronochlasm, I really like where your mind is going with this.  Its very close to what I envisioned when I came up with an all wizard game in the first place.  The specialization to me allows for diversity, but was also the purpose of things in having it be all wizards.  I figure an archmade or academy would have specialists.  Anyway, my favorite setting you've listed is clockwork.  As far as spells and levels and such, those mechanics don't bother me either way.  I'm in it for the story aspect, the self actualization of a world built by a DM.  I like the freedom to move around.  The spells available to me don't seem to be such a big deal, because we will acquire them as time goes on.  Lastly I have to say that a clockwork town in which the mages use magic AND science.  An Evoker could easily be a master of mechanical golems, channeling lightning into experiments and such.  Or even working with the Necromancer to make bigger better reanimated creatures.  Overall, as I said, I'm excited about the possibilities here, and hope that we can come to a group consensus.

[SomeGuy]

I'm liking the sound of Clockwork, and Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage.

[TheGlyphstone]

I can go for a clockwork/steampunky setting.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I do like steamwork/clockwork setting likewise. Altough I doubt there is room in the game but we shall see is there has been drop outs since start of this thread :P.