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Author Topic: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal  (Read 12425 times)

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Offline SabbyTopic starter

Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« on: May 28, 2011, 01:18:45 PM »
Why Homosexuality Should Be Banned

"We have the right to keep two people in love from getting married"

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
If you can't actually figure it out for yourself, the video is actually sarcastic. A lot of people seem to be having trouble grasping that for some reason :/

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2011, 03:37:35 PM »
First thought on reading thread title: "It is in some States, isn't it? Not that sodomy laws are ever enforced, but they're still on the books, right?"

First thought after watching video: "Damn yeah, Hawaiian shirts! =D"

Offline Vekseid

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2011, 04:08:56 PM »
First thought on reading thread title: "It is in some States, isn't it? Not that sodomy laws are ever enforced, but they're still on the books, right?"

First thought after watching video: "Damn yeah, Hawaiian shirts! =D"

Sodomy laws were ruled unconstitutional and thus, while they might remain on books in some states they are effectively repealed. Ruling a law unconstitutional doesn't actually repeal the law, the courts simply say that they won't apply it.

Offline Brandon

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2011, 04:21:43 PM »
Im not sure if its just me but this is the third post in two days that seems to post something seemingly humorous but with no substance from the OP. Its almost like they dont want discussion to happen. What is the purpose of this new style of posting?

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2011, 04:24:36 PM »
Just because I put cookies on the table doesn't mean I wanna eat them with everyone else :P

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2011, 04:33:29 PM »
Everyone likes cookies, so they're not really controversial. Or political.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2011, 04:36:10 PM »
Just a term of phrase. The video is still very accurate.

Offline Brandon

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2011, 04:50:09 PM »
Everyone likes cookies Sabby you really should stick around and snack on them with everyone else!

More seriously, why post it at all? You know there isnt a single person on Elliquiy who is against homosexuality, or at least no one that will speak up. The intro process ensures that no gay bashers get in in the first place. The most you would get is someone explaining someone elses point of view which is often what I end up doing in a seemingly futile attempt to educate people

I guess I just dont understand

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2011, 05:02:02 PM »
It raises interesting points that I assumed could be expanded on >.> like the "Its unnatural, just like glasses and polyester" point. I had a similar experience with my brothers douchebag room mate who said that gay anal sex was totally unnatural. I asked him if he ever kisses his girlfriend. When he answered yes, I told him that using his mouth like that is completely unnatural. A mouth isn't made for kissing. Its for eating, breathing, speaking... mashing it against a womans face as a show of affection is not what its for, but no one bats a lash when two people kiss.

So if he has such a problem with two guys using their rear entry in an unorthodox way, then he also has to swear off of kissing, or he's a hypocrite.

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2011, 05:08:28 PM »
It would depend on what you consider natural. What does "unnatural" mean? Is it that animals wouldn't do it? Because animals do have their own affectionate gestures, and guess what, some take part in anal sex, totally without human intervention. I wouldn't be surprised if they kiss now and then either - I wouldn't think it as important a gesture as humans consider it, but if I saw some apes peck I wouldn't go ZOMG KISSU either.

In your example I'd be as skeptical of your position as your friend's, honestly.

Offline SabbyTopic starter

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2011, 05:12:06 PM »
I wasn't saying I take that stance, or that I find it unnatural, was simply pointing out its not a very strong bullet point in your list of "Why I think gays are bad"

Offline Brandon

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2011, 05:14:50 PM »
Unnatural tends to be a completely subjective term today. Everything comes from nature at some point in the process of being made. I define unatural as it just wouldnt happen in that species without outside intervention. Obiviously anal sex and kissing are defined as natural and wholly enjoyable experiences in intimacy. What I would consider unatural is something like surgury (any kind from life saving to sex changes) because it requires outside intervention, it doesnt just happen but neither am I neccessarily opposed to what I consider to be unnatural

Of course that completely dodged my earlier question

Offline Will

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2011, 10:40:52 PM »
Well, the topic is now being discussed, isn't it?  Doesn't that leave your question moot?

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2011, 11:03:23 PM »
Actually, my dearest Will, this was all apart of Brandon's clever plan to start! He came to drop such a comment in a way that engineered us all to start a dialogue on the subject at hand. What looks like a backhanded comment is actually a delightfully sly show of reverse psychology and we are all unknowing participants!


Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2011, 11:06:40 PM »
Technically, discussing the semantics of the term "unnatural" isn't the thread's topic, so it's still not being discussed.

Offline Will

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 11:10:59 PM »
"First of all, homosexuality is completely unnatural" <--- OP's video

So... discussing the meaning of the term "unnatural" in the context of homosexuality is pretty well on topic.

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2011, 11:33:38 PM »
But it wasn't in the context of homosexuality, it was in the context of defining nature.

Offline Will

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2011, 11:53:51 AM »
Sure. :)

Offline jobe352

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 08:43:49 PM »
It raises interesting points that I assumed could be expanded on >.> like the "Its unnatural, just like glasses and polyester" point. I had a similar experience with my brothers douchebag room mate who said that gay anal sex was totally unnatural. I asked him if he ever kisses his girlfriend. When he answered yes, I told him that using his mouth like that is completely unnatural. A mouth isn't made for kissing. Its for eating, breathing, speaking... mashing it against a womans face as a show of affection is not what its for, but no one bats a lash when two people kiss.

So if he has such a problem with two guys using their rear entry in an unorthodox way, then he also has to swear off of kissing, or he's a hypocrite.
----------------------
Might have to disagree a little with this opinion...

Well, I do understand where you're coming from--how maybe anal sex between men is, let's just say, "unnatural". But, as far as your kissing theory, I must digress. This showing of affection, this kiss, isn't synthetic, nor man-made. It's the urge to show another love, to be close to a human being, regardless of gender. In order to reproduce, a man must have intercourse with a woman so they may create offspring. I believe that one chooses to be heterosexual or homosexual, thus, since we are hypothetical born straight (at least in my world :d), shoving a ding-dong into a masculine hole is not a primal instinct. I think that's enough from me for the moment.

Anyone think differently on this matter?

Offline Brandon

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 08:57:26 PM »
Yes and no. I think body parts can have multiple intended uses. For example a man's penis can be used to engage in sex but its also a tool to remove waste. The anus and vagina is pretty much exactly the same in that respect.

I dont think its possible for any of us to be 100% sure what every body parts intended use or uses were unless we were to ask god, or whatever/whoever made us, and if nothing made us so much as we just are then its impossible to be sure at all.

Then there is the question of what is considered a show of affection in each culture? Kissing is a fairly common one, I might even say universal. However other signs like holding hands and petting are more ground in culture then they are human desire to show affection. The united states, generally speaking, probably has sex ingrained into its culture more then any other nation Ive been to and while here its considered gay if a pair of guys hug for more then five seconds the same thing carries no sexual impact in other countries like Turkey but still has an affectionate meaning as friendship
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 09:22:52 PM by Brandon »

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2011, 09:02:42 PM »
----------------------
Might have to disagree a little with this opinion...

Well, I do understand where you're coming from--how maybe anal sex between men is, let's just say, "unnatural". But, as far as your kissing theory, I must digress. This showing of affection, this kiss, isn't synthetic, nor man-made. It's the urge to show another love, to be close to a human being, regardless of gender. In order to reproduce, a man must have intercourse with a woman so they may create offspring. I believe that one chooses to be heterosexual or homosexual, thus, since we are hypothetical born straight (at least in my world :d), shoving a ding-dong into a masculine hole is not a primal instinct. I think that's enough from me for the moment.

Anyone think differently on this matter?

The APA for one. 

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2011, 09:13:35 PM »
A kiss is thought by a lot of scientists to be a way to exchange pheromones, amongst other things, or may serve more emotional purposes such as comfort, demonstrating trust, or forming closer bonds in general. Still seems to be up in the air as to whether it's a learned thing or instinctual, but signs are pointing to its relevance manifesting itself in similar ways across the animal kingdom (grooming, touching noses, etc.) and also somewhat corroborated by ~90% of the world's population engaging in it.

If you'd like to make the argument that physically speaking, your ass wasn't made to handle sex, you might also argue that neither is your mouth if you're sticking to the strictest sense of how each part functions, but I can speak to a lot of people who certainly enjoy oral sex ;P

However, most of this is irrelevant if we're to look at just what being 'natural' or 'unnatural' entails. If you'd like to define natural as something that just happens with little to no outside interference, well, anal sex is just as natural as anything else. Human sexual urge in of itself is a natural thing, and so inventing new places to stick a penis for sexual gratification is hardly considered weird, especially when you consider that many straight men also have the desire to stick it up a woman's ass all the same.

The problem is that many people use "natural" as a synonym for "socially acceptable" or "commonplace", and they aren't quite the same thing. Cancer is natural, but we fight it aggressively. Farting is natural, but it's still considered rude. In some parts of the world, it's "natural" to belch after meals and find it complimentary.

tl;dr - there's always this.


**

In terms of your response, Jobe, I would just caution that you should be prepared to take questions on why you think homosexuality is a choice and perhaps present some evidence as to humans being 'born straight'. It's not a wildly popular or well-supported notion and you are in a community consisting of people with a wide range of sexualities.

Offline Brandon

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2011, 09:33:05 PM »
Actually Noelle she is completely within her rights to refuse to discuss that point of view. Just like there are topics that I adamantly refuse to discuss no matter how hard people drill me about it. Respecting the boundries of others is part of being civil

As to that opinion, I disagree with it but at the same time I can understand how people can come to that conclusion

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2011, 09:51:38 PM »
I never said she was obligated to answer, just that she should prepare for it to be questioned, given the setting we're in and the particular subforum we're in. You know as well as I do that posting in this section makes your assertions open to being questioned. It was cautionary, not demanding.

Offline Brandon

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2011, 09:55:15 PM »
I misunderstood then, sorry

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2011, 09:56:40 PM »
No harm, no foul. :)

Offline Jude

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2011, 12:10:56 AM »
I believe that one chooses to be heterosexual or homosexual, thus, since we are hypothetical born straight
Let me see if I am correctly understanding what you are saying.  You believe that people are born straight, and that people eventually have to choice to remain straight or become homosexual?

There are certainly people who would agree with you.  Take political lesbians for instance; they supposedly choose to be lesbians as a tactic of "separating from the patriarchy."  I don't know, though.

I am straight, and I can say for certain that I do not recall ever making the choice to be straight.  There have been times in my life when I felt disgusted with women and would've liked to involve myself with men -- when I was at my most dejected after a break up for instance -- but the option of becoming attracted to men was never presented to me or I would've possibly taken it.

I am straight because when I glance at imagery of feminine women, it arouses me.  This seems no different to me than how I salivate when I look at chocolate; it just tastes good to me, and women just seem attractive to me and are pleasurable to touch.  When I touch men similar ways, I simply don't feel the same way.  To me, this indicates that sexual attraction is an innate preference.  Science seems to corroborate this too.

I mean, in an existential sense, you still do make a choice.  You can choose to engage in homosexual behavior or heterosexual behavior, and if you believe you are defined by what you do not how you feel, then there's something to that.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2011, 06:18:32 AM »
My understanding is that the current theory on homosexuality is that the attraction works on a continuum rather than a strict no or yes scale.  People have varying degrees of attraction to the same and opposite sex.  This theory developed largely due to the large amount of straight men that admit to having homosexual encounters, but still identify as being heterosexual.  Their interactions, which society would interpret as them being gay, did not affect their self-image of being heterosexual.

The theory of choice is largely disregarded.  There are a few reasons for this including the ineffective use of social pressure to alter people’s behavior.  Social pressure is an incredibly strong force, one that can make people into monsters or force them to do tasks they are repulsed by.  Much pressure has been laid on homosexuals in the past to conform to norms, but the pressure has largely been without results.  At one point homosexuality was a hanging offense.  Homosexual still face ridicule and social repercussions for their lifestyle.  So why would a person make that choice when there is not advantage to making the choice?

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2011, 07:39:49 AM »
I can honestly say I don't ever remember waking up one day and deciding to find men attractive.  I just remember realizing I had a crush on a boy in Kindergarten, and being confused.  Then in the 5th grade I had a crush on a girl and was really confused.

I think normal and natural is a relative thing.  What's normal for one person may seem strange to another.  Look at cultural differences in different countries.  When it comes to affection I'm a very physical person.  My father showed his affection by giving gifts, and so does the rest of his family.  When visiting those relatives, if I said I liked something, chances were I was going home with it.  That may seem strange to a lot of you, but that's just how they are. 

Offline jobe352

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2011, 08:16:26 AM »
My understanding is that the current theory on homosexuality is that the attraction works on a continuum rather than a strict no or yes scale.  People have varying degrees of attraction to the same and opposite sex.  This theory developed largely due to the large amount of straight men that admit to having homosexual encounters, but still identify as being heterosexual.  Their interactions, which society would interpret as them being gay, did not affect their self-image of being heterosexual.

The theory of choice is largely disregarded.  There are a few reasons for this including the ineffective use of social pressure to alter people’s behavior.  Social pressure is an incredibly strong force, one that can make people into monsters or force them to do tasks they are repulsed by.  Much pressure has been laid on homosexuals in the past to conform to norms, but the pressure has largely been without results.  At one point homosexuality was a hanging offense.  Homosexual still face ridicule and social repercussions for their lifestyle.  So why would a person make that choice when there is not advantage to making the choice?

I agree: society definitely pressures people to go with the flow--the accepted norm is heterosexuality. But, at least for me, if I believe in something, I don't sit in the corner and mope because no one thinks the same way. Gays and lesbians should just be themselves, whether or not that choice helps or hurts their social status.

Whatever makes them happy is the utmost concern...this is probably the same for each and everyone one of us.

So, in short, why not make that choice? Why not be different? When love comes into play, consequences aren't that important--again, as long as the couple's content with that lifestyle.   


Let me see if I am correctly understanding what you are saying.  You believe that people are born straight, and that people eventually have to choice to remain straight or become homosexual?

There are certainly people who would agree with you.  Take political lesbians for instance; they supposedly choose to be lesbians as a tactic of "separating from the patriarchy."  I don't know, though.

I am straight, and I can say for certain that I do not recall ever making the choice to be straight.  There have been times in my life when I felt disgusted with women and would've liked to involve myself with men -- when I was at my most dejected after a break up for instance -- but the option of becoming attracted to men was never presented to me or I would've possibly taken it.

I am straight because when I glance at imagery of feminine women, it arouses me.  This seems no different to me than how I salivate when I look at chocolate; it just tastes good to me, and women just seem attractive to me and are pleasurable to touch.  When I touch men similar ways, I simply don't feel the same way.  To me, this indicates that sexual attraction is an innate preference.  Science seems to corroborate this too.

I mean, in an existential sense, you still do make a choice.  You can choose to engage in homosexual behavior or heterosexual behavior, and if you believe you are defined by what you do not how you feel, then there's something to that.

Like I've said before, in order to produce children, a male must have sex with a woman. When you are an infant, you cannot make the choice to be anything other than what your body and hormones exude. If everyone was born gay, then why wasn't there just one gender created? Why need two...?

Again, with the chocolate example, it goes right back to your choice. Let's just say you didn't like candy. Just looking at sweets made you squirm, made negative thoughts pour into your mind. You're still choosing whether or not to eat it. That's my point. Your physical, emotional, genetic, and hormonal background does come into play, but, in the end, YOU decide what you want. Candy or no candy?

And when I say choice, I don't necessarily mean a verbal confirmation expressing your sexuality! Sometimes, it's internal... you silently affirm you'll never touch candy again, possibly without letting anyone know. It's still a decision.


I can honestly say I don't ever remember waking up one day and deciding to find men attractive.  I just remember realizing I had a crush on a boy in Kindergarten, and being confused.  Then in the 5th grade I had a crush on a girl and was really confused.

I think normal and natural is a relative thing.  What's normal for one person may seem strange to another.  Look at cultural differences in different countries.  When it comes to affection I'm a very physical person.  My father showed his affection by giving gifts, and so does the rest of his family.  When visiting those relatives, if I said I liked something, chances were I was going home with it.  That may seem strange to a lot of you, but that's just how they are. 


Hmm. Normal and natural aren't relative. Let me give you the two definitions of the words.. "Natural": of or pertaining to nature or the universe; existing in or formed by nature. "Normal": conforming to the standard  or the common type; serving to establish a standard.  Nothing in common, really.

While your body or mind says to find men or woman attractive, you yourself, influenced by a number of things, make the resolution to partake in either or both. This is when homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality arrives. You then receive a label based on your emotions, beliefs, and actions.
__________

I hope I answered everyone's questions. :) Feel free to comment.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:21:38 AM by jobe352 »

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2011, 09:15:35 AM »
I agree: society definitely pressures people to go with the flow--the accepted norm is heterosexuality. But, at least for me, if I believe in something, I don't sit in the corner and mope because no one thinks the same way. Gays and lesbians should just be themselves, whether or not that choice helps or hurts their social status.

I'm sure you didn't intend it, but this is a very condescending way to look at the current situation of homosexuals. They are not "sitting in the corner and moping". Your marginalization of the situation severely undercuts the horrible things that have happened and continue to happen to this day; again, I'm sure it's not intentional on your behalf, but it is nonetheless a harmful mindset. It's not a matter of "just being themselves" -- there are real consequences to coming out publicly; you can lose your job in many states, some people are disowned by their families, not to mention ridiculed, taunted, and sometimes physically assaulted.

You have presumably never had to think about whether or not holding someone's hand in public is going to start controversy, or if you're going to be fired because of "being yourself". I assume you've never been taunted for your sexual preference or have had to consider the impact that "being yourself" will have on the way your family perceives you -- that they might even fail to support you and reject you for it. That's not moping, my friend. That's real, genuine anxiety over what can be a life-changing thing such as coming out.

Quote
Like I've said before, in order to produce children, a male must have sex with a woman. When you are an infant, you cannot make the choice to be anything other than what your body and hormones exude. If everyone was born gay, then why wasn't there just one gender created? Why need two...?

You're making scientific claims with no factual base to them.

When you are an infant, you pretty much don't have any kind of sexual inclination at all given that most feelings of attraction don't happen until early adolescence, and even as an adolescent, you do not have the mental faculties developed to even understand sexual orientation.

Your questions aren't even relevant to proving or disproving whether or not homosexuality is a choice. The fact that homosexuality exists does not make having two sexes irrelevant -- you're making a false dilemma that we can either have homosexuals, but then we have no need for two sexes, or we can have heterosexuals, which means homosexuals must have chosen it. These are not the only two options, especially given that abnormalities occur in nature all the time, including what we have noted is homosexual behavior in various species across the animal kingdom, as well. The existence of homosexuality does not, never has, and never will invalidate heterosexuality. I'm not sure why you'd pit the two against each other, especially when you start to bring things like bisexuality into the mix, which invalidates your argument all the same.


Quote
Again, with the chocolate example, it goes right back to your choice. Let's just say you didn't like candy. Just looking at sweets made you squirm, made negative thoughts pour into your mind. You're still choosing whether or not to eat it. That's my point. Your physical, emotional, genetic, and hormonal background does come into play, but, in the end, YOU decide what you want. Candy or no candy?

I fail to see how this represents homosexuality at all. If looking at women made a man feel uncomfortable, what choice is there to be made if there is something appealing nearby? "You can do this thing that makes you uncomfortable OR you can do something that you like!" What in the world kind of choice would you call that? Why would anyone choose to have sex with women if it made them uncomfortable? It's maybe a choice in the most technical sense, but it's about the same kind of choice as "you can have this suitcase full of money...or you can get punched in the face".

Quote
Hmm. Normal and natural aren't relative. Let me give you the two definitions of the words.. "Natural": of or pertaining to nature or the universe; existing in or formed by nature. "Normal": conforming to the standard  or the common type; serving to establish a standard.  Nothing in common, really.

Despite the fact that you're still using the naturalistic fallacy, I'll humor you on this one and ask you for your opinion on our research on homosexual behavior in animals. I will remind you that animals do not have the mental capacity to choose a sexual orientation. I don't really see how you could argue that this is unnatural.

Normalcy is incredibly relative. It was considered normal 50 years ago for women to stay at home, take care of the house, and pop out babies. Conversely, it's normal today for most people, regardless of gender, to go out and work for a living. In the technical sense of it, homosexuality is abnormal in that the majority of the population is heterosexual, but again, normality is not synonymous with "good" or "right". Homosexuality in America 50 years ago was largely hidden and even more frowned upon; today, we have judges who serve while being openly recognized as gay, as well as advancements in legal recognition and protection. Normalcy is largely irrelevant.

Quote
While your body or mind says to find men or woman attractive, you yourself, influenced by a number of things, make the resolution to partake in either or both. This is when homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality arrives. You then receive a label based on your emotions, beliefs, and actions.

Your argument here doesn't make sense. You first argue that your body/mind says to find men or women attractive. That's biological. That would mean that being gay is not a choice because you would innately be attracted to one sex or the other, or both. You then say that we have a choice to act on that -- well yes, technically we do, but a man who has sex with women purely on a technical level but isn't sexually attracted to them isn't a heterosexual, he's a homosexual whose penis happens to be in a woman's vicinity. He's a gay man who's fooling himself.

Offline jobe352

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2011, 09:54:44 AM »
You certainly are taking this discussion far too seriously. I'm going to answer you in the tersest way possible...because, just after posting, what, twice, I feel more than enough hostility coming from both you, Noelle, and most of the others on this topic. If you'd like to take this conservation into the argumentative state, then I'll have no part in it.
---
Quote
I'm sure you didn't intend it, but this is a very condescending way to look at the current situation of homosexuals.

You just perceive my words as condescending. They were used just to further discuss my point of choosing sexuality.

Quote
You're making scientific claims with no factual base to them.

What, a female and male, after having sex, won't produce a baby? Must I really find scientific evidence to prove this? Homosexuality does not create children, of course. Then, if one couldn't choose their sexuality, if it were based solely on biology, when won't those deemed homosexuals be "unnatural"? Men cannot further their bloodline with other males, and the same goes with females.


Quote
...even as an adolescent, you do not have the mental faculties developed to even understand sexual orientation.

Complete, utter rubbish. Would you like to present me with some evidence that proves this statement's actuality? I, for one, will never have a sexual relationship with a woman--never have I ever had the urge to do this either. I have the strongest grasp upon my sexuality.

Quote
I'll humor you on this one and ask you for your opinion on our research on homosexual behaviors in animals.

If it's natural and normal, then why isn't ever animal participating in homosexuality? How can you compare a duck to a human? Even you said they can't choose their sexual orientation. Animals are completely instinctive, automatic things. They can't think rationally about anything and are extremely simplistic. Ludicrous...It's like contrasting a candy wrapper and a rock. Come now...humanity's complexities can't even be categorized in the same bracket as an animal's simplicities.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 02:00:56 PM by jobe352 »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2011, 11:37:57 AM »
To say that a person should do what makes them happy is quite easy when that person has the back of the majority.  Making the statement that a person should be themselves no matter the consequences is a statement of ignorance for another’s plight.  The person could face unemployment, social ousting, humiliation, shame and any number of social consequences.  None of these will make that person happy.  Making the choice to come forward is a difficult one that many gay people wrestle with in their lives and may never truly come to accept.  Some may not even think themselves gay merely that they have desires that must be suppressed.  As we have agreed on, social forces are powerful in forcing another to comply.  That compliance is garnered through punishment.

Is the love of another so great that a person is willing to sacrifice their future, their family and their ability to reach for their other dreams?  For some, the answer is no.  Yet if this was a choice, if the gay person should shut off their desire for their own sex then why not make the easy choice?  Why not choose to be with the opposite sex, have their acceptance and have the ability to enjoy their cake and ice cream.

The issue with proclaiming something as natural is that none know truly what natural is.  A child born with birth defects is still natural.  The human body can develop many strange alterations in the human form through genetic mixtures.  While we consider them medical problems, they are still entirely created in and by natural changes and progression.  Taking the stance that you have stated would mean that any child born incapable of reproduction is an unnatural child.  Any human being that never possessed the ability to reproduce is an unnatural human.  That is quite a broad claim.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2011, 12:36:31 PM »
You certainly are taking this discussion far too seriously. I'm going to answer you in the tersest way possible...because, just after posting, what, twice, I feel more than enough hostility coming from both you, Noelle, and most of the others on this topic. If you'd like to take this conservation into the argumentative state, then I'll have no part in it.

Part of the purpose of the Politics & Religion boards is to debate. I apologize if you perceive anything I've said as hostile, as it was not my intent. However, if you do not want your views criticized (or as you've put it, "taking this discussion far too seriously"), then this may not be the right section for you and you may not want to end your posts with "feel free to comment". As Brandon pointed out, you don't have to discuss anything you don't want to, but you should probably let us know up front as not to waste our time.

Quote
You just perceive my words as condescending. They were used just to further discuss my point of choosing sexuality.

You perceived my posts as hostile -- again, I apologize if that is how you read into my post, as it was not my intent, but just because you do not feel it was condescending doesn't mean it did not have that effect. Justification does not remove that sentiment, in fact, it often makes it worse. I was pointing out that the way you were treating the subject is flippant and marginalizing to the struggles of homosexuals to gain acceptance as being nothing more than "moping" is a very harmful mindset. That is offensive even if you didn't intend it.

Quote

What, a female and male, after having sex, won't produce a baby? Must I really find scientific evidence to prove this? Homosexuality does not create children, of course.

No, procreation was not what I was referring to. That's about the only claim you've made so far that I can substantiate with science. If you'd like to do a little research and show me what is backing your view on homosexuality as a choice, that would be a great start to an intelligent debate.

Quote
Then, if one couldn't choose their sexuality, if it were based solely on biology, when won't those deemed homosexuals be "unnatural"? Men cannot further their bloodline with other males, and the same goes with females. [/size]

I fail to see what procreation has to do with whether or not homosexuality occurs in nature, which by your own definition, would be 'natural'. But again, this point is wholly futile, given the naturalistic fallacy. Whether or not it's natural...really doesn't matter, because 'natural' is not synonymous with any kind of moral concept like 'good' or 'bad'. Some would argue that giving to charity is 'unnatural' (if you'd like to talk about the so-called 'selfish gene'), or that shaving your legs is 'unnatural' (after all, the hair is supposed to be there!). It's not a particularly strong basis for an argument.

Quote
Complete, utter rubbish. Would you like to present me with some evidence that proves this statement's actuality? I, for one, will never have a sexual relationship with a woman--never have I ever had the urge to do this either. I have the strongest grasp upon my sexuality.

I would be happy to, if you could be so kind as to return the favor and maybe show a bit more respect for my opinion than calling it "complete, utter rubbish". I am open to being proven wrong, but only if you're going to make an effort to do so rather than being uncivil.

I did misword my response a bit, so that was my mistake -- I was thinking of adolescence as a different age range than it is, I'm thinking more of early preadolescence and before.

First, I'd like to put your quote into context, since it does matter.

You made this claim:

Quote
When you are an infant, you cannot make the choice to be anything other than what your body and hormones exude

When you are an infant, you do not experience sexual attraction. Infants do not even have a concept of gender or gender identity (this develops a little later on) and therefore are incapable of developing a sexual orientation. This isn't to say that children aren't, at some level, aware of sexuality -- little boys are notorious for touching themselves because it feels good, but they are generally unaware of what that feeling is and why.

Here is an AAP chart of normal sexual behavior in children.
Another chart regarding observed typical behavior in children-preadolescents.

This chart is especially noteworthy. A few points:

1. Before children have hit the stage where they have developed a definite gender identity, you'll notice that 13% dresses like the opposite sex and 6% wants to be the opposite sex. As time goes on, these feelings diminish.

2. Curiosity in their own sexual parts is very pronounced at a young age, as well as interest in others. However, you'll notice that their correlation with personal sexual gratification and other people remains largely non-existent. They are curious about other people's bodies and curious about sexualized things on TV and the like, but have not made the connection yet.

3. I'll point out the "overly friendly with men" category, which starts out at 2.5% and gradually diminishes as they age. Even interest in opposite sex peaks at only 25% between the ages 10-12 and drops before then.

Hormones do not, in fact, play a significant role until puberty -- certainly not when you're an infant.

It is also not uncommon for parents to find their young children engaging peers of the same sex, usually in an exploratory, curious manner (games of 'doctor', etc). This neither confirms nor denies any evidence of homosexual tendencies in children later on.

Quote
If it's natural and normal, then why isn't ever animal participating in homosexuality? How can you compare a duck to a human? Even you said they can't choose their sexual orientation.

I didn't say it was normal. If your definition of normalcy is based on what happens in the majority of cases, then yes, animal homosexuality is abnormal. As I've stressed many times, normalcy is not a moral definition. Being normal is neither morally superior nor necessarily morally repugnant. So what's your point?

It's natural in the same way cancer is natural. Just because cancer is a naturally-occurring disease doesn't mean everyone has to have cancer.

Quote
Animals are completely instinctive, automatic things. They can't think rationally about anything and are extremely simplistic. Lubricious...It's like contrasting a candy wrapper and a rock. Come now...humanity's complexities can't even be categorized in the same bracket as an animal's simplicities. [/size]

I don't understand your views. Humans are animals. One minute you say homosexuality is a product of biology, but then you say it's a choice. Is your biological sex a choice then, too? I can choose to present myself as a man later on in life, after all!

You say it's unnatural, but then when I give you examples of homosexuality happening in creatures who aren't sentient enough to be able choose, that's also apparently unacceptable to you. You gave the definition of what's natural, I'm abiding by it, and now you're crying foul, not to mention consistently committing fallacies.

Determining whether or not homosexuality in humans is 'normal' is pointless. It's an utterly wortheless endeavor. 'Normal' in the sense of social acceptance is fickle. Normal is a worthless concept.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 12:40:39 PM by Noelle »

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2011, 01:07:36 PM »
I will only reiterate what I put in my very first response on this thread.  The APA (American Psychological Association) does not consider sexual orientation (that being, the drive to be homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual any other point on the spectrum) to be a choice.

quote source APA article I linked earlier
Quote
Is sexual orientation a choice?

No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

Can therapy change sexual orientation?

No; even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, often coerced by family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable. However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals.
What about so-called "conversion therapies"?

Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports, however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of these claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective that condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented; for example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported over time, as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention.

The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association's Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology's opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client's right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy will take place in a professionally neutral environment, without any social bias.

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2011, 01:16:42 PM »
Trust me, Jobe, I've seen hostility on this forum. These folks are just...very direct when it comes to debate on subjects such as these. It's nothing personal - they're not mad at you. ^.^

Now then, let's see if this can be cleared up a bit...
If it's natural and normal, then why isn't ever animal participating in homosexuality? How can you compare a duck to a human? Even you said they can't choose their sexual orientation. Animals are completely instinctive, automatic things. They can't think rationally about anything and are extremely simplistic. Lubricious...It's like contrasting a candy wrapper and a rock. Come now...humanity's complexities can't even be categorized in the same bracket as an animal's simplicities.
I think what you're trying to get at here is your statement that people choose despite their preferences, yes? Back on Jude's chocolate example you noted whether you find chocolate delicious or repugnant you're still making a choice as to whether to eat it or not. This is along the same line of reasoning, right? You're trying to say animals don't have the capacity to make those choices the way people do, therefore animals taking part in homosexual activities aren't comparable to humans who choose to act homosexual or otherwise? Okay, I can see that.

However, that argument overlooks something obvious: whether or not you choose to act on your preferences, you still have preferences that are natural, instinctive, and cannot be controlled. Therefore, even if a man only enters heterosexual relationships, if that man finds sex with women undesirable and is attracted only to men, can you really say he's heterosexual by nature? Isn't he, in fact, behaving unnaturally by acting against his inherent preferences - that which comes naturally to him?

You can choose how to act, yes. You choose to behave in a homosexual manner; you don't choose to have homosexual preferences, any more than you choose to like the taste of chocolate, the sound of classical music, or the atmosphere of Robert Frost's poetry.

So then it comes down to one question: what determines one's sexuality - actions or preferences? As I understand it, it's the latter.

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2011, 02:07:52 PM »
I really had to sit down and think about what I've posted. It does, now, make sense that a person is ultimately inclined towards one sexuality through their birth. :P Thanks Shjade, for understanding my point of view. I still believe, to some degree, people choose whether or not to be straight or gay, solely on a conscience level. You're spot-on.

Yup. Just like the chocolate. Do I eat this chocolate and suffer the ramifications, or do I avoid it all together?

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2011, 02:16:12 PM »
*smiles*

The difference being that eating chocolate causes a temporary problem (a few pounds that you work off, maybe an allergic reaction that you take your epi-pen for, some breakouts that you hit with the zit-cream), and 'choosing' to act on one's inherent sexuality can result in being ostracized from family, friends and community, having to deal with hate crimes and ignorance, and (should they 'choose' not to act on it) being separated for all time from the person that could be the love of their life.

Yup, just like chocolate.

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2011, 05:34:44 PM »
I'm certainly not being hostile, but I am a little irritated.  But let's try this approach...

Okay, so, this is an adult role playing forum, right?  So you being here means you are interested in that kind of thing.  Did you choose that?  I tried looking at your preferences.  You didn't list much, but still, there must be something that turns you on.  When did you sit down and decide what was going to arouse you? 

Do you think that people with foot fetishes, or those who are into bondage chose that too?  Did you choose your favorite color?  Did you choose your favorite food?  When you try something new, do you sit and decide whether or not you're going to like it, or do you know as soon as you taste it?

As a bi-sexual person I catch all kinds of crap.  People think I want to have my cake and eat it too.  I get called greedy, or a slut.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  I'm mostly attracted to men.  The male form just really does it for me.  However, I do sometimes feel sexual attraction when I see a woman.  There are some pictures in the finders and seekers area that are of women and they send shivers down my spine.  It's a gut reaction, no choice involved.

Going with the chocolate analogy...  I have a box of gourmet truffles here by my desk.  I love truffles.  However, some of them are dark chocolate.  I like milk chocolate, not dark chocolate.  I probably will eat those dark chocolate truffles, but I'm not going to enjoy it.  I just really don't like to waste food, and my boyfriend doesn't like dark chocolate either.  But no amount of wishing or will power is going to make me like it.  Ergo... if a man is attracted to men, he can choose to be with women because of social pressure, he isn't going to like it.  He isn't going to be happy.  The same goes for a straight person.  A straight man could choose to be with another man, but he won't like it.  Wanting to like dark chocolate, or someone of the opposite gender, isn't going to make it happen.       

Offline jobe352

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2011, 07:35:24 PM »
As you can see above, my...outlooks been slightly changed.

I do sometimes think about things that arouse me, on occasion, what my brains tells me not to enjoy, but what my body might crave. I am a heterosexual female who will only be with men. I'm not even down for "experimentation".

I must say that you do choose your favorite foods, and your favorite color. You might be inclined a certain way, but, in the end, you, either verbally or mentally, say, "I like black. Black's totally my favorite."

Truffles--again, since you don't like wasting, you choose not to throw away the dark chocolate, because of preferences. It's still a choice. Now, I completely understand that some people can't help being attracted to a certain sex, person, food, color, band, so on and so forth. My point: you decide what you do.

Here it is again. Do I want to eat this yucky dark chocolate truffle? This is followed by: yes or no. A choice.



Offline Trieste

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2011, 07:53:38 PM »
jobe, no one is disagreeing with you that choosing to act on desires or not is a choice.

What people are trying to get at is that homosexuality or heterosexuality is more like the actual enjoyment of, and inclination toward, dark chocolate or milk chocolate or white chocolate. I don't know about you, but I didn't sit down one day and say, "I'm going to enjoy milk chocolate and white chocolate, but I'm going to find dark chocolate too bitter unless it's cooked into x, y, and z desserts".

Nobody does that.

To try to say that "Well, but I did that! You must have, too!" is an insult to the spirit of the people posting to you - in good faith that you will weigh their opinions as well as yours - as well as an insult to peoples' intelligence. You are saying that you are perfectly straight, and if I gather correctly, you never sat down one day and said, "I'm going to be into the cock".

Yes, you made a choice not to experiment with other sexualities, but you did not make the choice to have a complete lack of attraction to other women.

You don't make that choice.

You can choose to act on your desires but you do not choose your desires.

Just like you can't choose with whom you fall in love, even if they are terrible for you. Even if they hurt you or they don't love you back. Even if they are the same sex. Even if your family would disown you if they knew. Even if you're terrified that loving the person would ruin your friendship with them. Even if every fiber of your being tells you it's wrong.

You cannot help who you love. You cannot choose who you desire. Whether it's genetic and they do indeed find the 'gay gene', or whether it's a product of brain chemistry, or whether it's a product of something we cannot fathom, you do not choose your hair color, you do not choose whether to see or be blind, and you do not choose which physical form will set your blood to racing.

That is the difference between desire, and the choice to act on it. Between liking chocolate, and choosing to eat it.

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2011, 08:33:09 PM »
That is the difference between desire, and the choice to act on it. Between liking chocolate, and choosing to eat it.
My first thought reading this is the obvious correlation for if/when the discussion ever turns Biblical in any context: the difference between temptation and sin.

My second thought was, Shit, that's just going to make it sound like homosexuality's sinning. >.<

You can't wiiiiiin. D:

Offline jobe352

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2011, 09:22:33 PM »
--Trieste

For like, the twentieth time, I got it: You can't determine your sexuality. You're either one or the other. :D

It just seemed like Sere didn't understand where I was coming from. That's why I keep repeating the "choice" bit.

And you can choose your hair color--thank god for hair dye! ^.^
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Ha, ha! Just like Monopoly...

"Fuck! We've been playing this game for hoursss! I can't winnnn!"

Offline Trieste

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2011, 09:43:50 PM »
--Trieste

For like, the twentieth time, I got it: You can't determine your sexuality. You're either one or the other. :D


Welllllll, actually.

According to Kinsey, many people are to some varying degree bisexual. Most of the people who are actually deemed (and identify as) 'bisexual' are somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey Scale or similar sexuality scales. I think probably Marguerite could speak more comfortably than I can about how widely accepted such scales are, but I do know that in my particular area, the idea of a 'scale' is pretty well-accepted. Being on the extreme ends of the scale is much like being on the high end or the low end of a bell curve, also.

And so.

It's actually quite unlikely that you're either one or the other. :-)

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2011, 08:55:25 AM »
I do kind of get what you're trying to say.  Like I said, I ate the dark chocolate because I didn't want to waste it.  But my point comes in where I still didn't/don't like it.  If my mom is around I would much rather give it to her because she likes it.  You can't make yourself like something.  You either do, or you don't.

Say we have a man that is very attracted to other men.  But, for whatever reason, he decides he's only going to go out with women.  If he has to picture Johnny Depp to have sex with his girlfriend, is he still hetero?

Falling in love is even more complicated.  There really is no rhyme or reason to it.  I'm in love with a computer geek that works at Mc Donalds. 

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2011, 03:03:25 PM »
If my mom is around I would much rather give it to her because she likes it.

I really hope this isn't how you pawn off people you don't want to date. :x

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2011, 03:07:20 PM »
You mean, you never set up someone that you didn't want to date with a friend that would fit better with them?  ::)

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2011, 03:17:14 PM »
Well, no, I haven't, but I was more referring to hooking them up with your mother rather than your friend. xD

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2011, 03:27:34 PM »
I doubt my mother would like the women who would want to date me.  ;D

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2011, 10:27:36 PM »
I've been following this one with interest *smiles*
And there is some particularly fine debating going on, robust though it may be.
Looking back at the video from the OP, while I got the point fairly quickly that it was supposed to be sarcastic / ironic / whatever - my problem is was it wasn't actually that funny...
So, this will be long, but I will try not to prattle too much.  I'm looking at it from a completely personal perspective (no science, pseudoscience or objective psychological evidence to back me up here...just human being to human being)  -  I think it is very much a combination of all the things that people appear to want to take an opposing stance on.  Here's my personal experience:
At junior school level (and in the first few years of high school) I was branded a pansy / poof / (insert whatever homophobic moniker you wish; heard 'em all).  These were co-educational schools, I should add.  And what was this based on?  Mostly because I wasn't good at sport, didn't like football or hockey, wasn't interested in what the latest fucken motorbike or car model was.  No, I liked books, sitting drawing and painting, music...and avoiding dickheads who liked all the things I didn't.  So because I didn't conform to societal stereotypes of what a young male should be, I was therefore...what...homosexual? Pfft.  Great argument - talk about confusing gender and sexuality.  However, such was the pressure of this that I wondered if they might be right...and yep, like (I would stick my neck out to suggest) many a young boy I experimented with other young boys who had not conformed to imposed ideas of gender and sexuality.  Not many, but enough to know that...well, it just wasn't for me.  Choice?  Maybe.  But at least one of those other boys did 'choose' to be gay (or...maybe...just maybe...he was gay all along...Not too radical a leap, eh?)  No, I found out I much preferred females...and found out also that some of them liked me, too.  Being a 'sensitive' boy worked in my favour some of the time. 


So, winding forward many years...I worked in an industry that had many homosexuals working in it (male and female) and sometimes, but rarely, I was the only 'straight' guy.  Oddly (I had enough experiences of this to make me think it odd) I had many gay men telling me, trying to convince me, that I was gay...that denial was not a river in Egypt...I was a screaming heterosexual...yadayadayada.  Were they right?  Not in my opinion.  I have been in bed with 2 gay men, all of us in 'spoons' (me in the middle) and it didn't feel in the slightest bit sexual to me and neither did it to them (or so they told me).  Do the same with a good female friend (not a lover) and I'd be apologising for having a hard-on.  My unscientific opinion?  Pheromones most likely...women just do that to me.  So...is that choice?  Well, again...not in my opinion.  When presented with the choice, it appears that the little brain between my legs reacts to (certain) women's pheromones, and I have never had a similar experience with men.  And I have confidence in that...being a 'gay straight man' is a good place for me.  How about you?
So how does this add to the debate?  Ok, well maybe we shouldn't be trying to box it off with all the head-wank about whether or not it's natural or unnatural, whether or not some guy having sex with another guy, or girl with another girl,  is wrong (and let's not even go there with anal sex...unless you ask nicely ;D ).  It is what it is, so maybe acceptance is a good way forward.  The rest just starts to sound like sophistry.


*Dismounts high horse*
L

Offline Shjade

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2011, 11:01:00 PM »
And I have confidence in that...being a 'gay straight man' is a good place for me.
I believe the word you're looking for is "metrosexual." Or did that term stop being trendy already?

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2011, 11:08:41 PM »
 XD  Yep, been called that one too..


What's in a name? that which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet...

L

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2011, 08:16:35 PM »
I really hate stereotypes and labels.  I'm not all that great at sports either, except volleyball, and badminton.  Go figure...  Of course, I'm not very good at those either when classmates are screaming at me.  You would think they'd figure out that screaming and insults are counter-productive, but whatever.

I hated gym class.  Did you have issues with your male classmates not wanting to change in front of you?  I did.  It's a good thing we didn't have to shower.  That would really have been an unpleasant mess.  I wasn't really open about my feelings, but teenagers see what they want to see.  In your case they made assumptions.  In my case I was caught looking at a few guys.  Honestly, who would want to be treated like that? 

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2011, 08:37:23 PM »
Here in Texas if your like that, then it's really hard for you unless your in a democratic city like Austin or Denton.

Not that I'm gay, I just roomed with one when I went to college and he bitched a lot.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2011, 08:51:58 PM »
I really hate stereotypes and labels.  I'm not all that great at sports either, except volleyball, and badminton.  Go figure...  Of course, I'm not very good at those either when classmates are screaming at me.  You would think they'd figure out that screaming and insults are counter-productive, but whatever.

I hated gym class.  Did you have issues with your male classmates not wanting to change in front of you?  I did.  It's a good thing we didn't have to shower.  That would really have been an unpleasant mess.  I wasn't really open about my feelings, but teenagers see what they want to see.  In your case they made assumptions.  In my case I was caught looking at a few guys.  Honestly, who would want to be treated like that? 


Not that I advocate treating people like shit, certainly you shouldn't treat someone poorly for their sexual orientation, but isn't it understandable that they would be uncomfortable changing in front of you if they knew? If you really were "caught looking", isn't that akin to, say, me (being a woman) being uncomfortable changing in a room full of men who could also presumably be looking in a less-than-innocent manner? It's one thing, I think, for heterosexual men or women to catch a glance at other men and women in the same respective locker room -- you're not changing with your eyes shut (probably) and people are just generally curious about other people, but you introduce a whole different element when there's the potential for actual interest and possibly even arousal/pleasure at seeing other people.

This brings on a whole different debate of how to accommodate people with different sexualities (if it's even possible...do you just make bisexuals change in a closet?), especially when it's so ambiguous, but I can understand and somewhat sympathize with those who feel strangely about undressing in front of someone who's attracted to their sex. It's not to say every gay man is attracted to every man just because he's got a penis (that's definitely not true), but it's kind of similar logic to why we divide men and women's locker rooms.

Offline Serephino

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2011, 09:15:37 PM »
It's not to say every gay man is attracted to every man just because he's got a penis (that's definitely not true), but it's kind of similar logic to why we divide men and women's locker rooms.

This...  No, I am not attracted to every man out there.  It's rather annoying to have people assume that.  It really isn't similar logic.  Men and women have different parts.  And hell, in some cultures men and women weren't/aren't separated. 

Also, so what if I looked?  Like I said, we didn't shower, so it wasn't like I was looking at them naked.  They never seemed to have a problem showing off for the girls.  But with me they acted like homosexuality was something they could catch from my gaze, which I didn't usually look much in the locker room.  I changed and left.  It was nothing more or less than ignorance. 

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2011, 10:22:37 PM »
This...  No, I am not attracted to every man out there.  It's rather annoying to have people assume that.  It really isn't similar logic.  Men and women have different parts.  And hell, in some cultures men and women weren't/aren't separated. 

It kind of is the same logic though. We don't just separate men and women because they have different parts. To pretend that human curiosity, attraction, and foolish hormones don't play a part is silly. I'm not uncomfortable changing in front of a man because I've got a vagina and he doesn't, I'm uncomfortable changing in front of a man because I don't want to be potentially sexually objectified. Does this mean every straight man wants every straight woman just because she has as a vagina? Nope, and yet we separate the two anyway to prevent that kind of weird and potentially humiliating situation.

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Also, so what if I looked?  Like I said, we didn't shower, so it wasn't like I was looking at them naked.

That doesn't mean it can't be objectifying. Men do it to me when I'm wearing so much as a tight pair of jeans and it can be just as uncomfortable as if I were naked. To pretend that everyone should be okay with you looking at them in a potentially arousing manner is kind of absurd. It doesn't matter if you're gay or if you're straight, if they're jerks or not, the same rules of respect apply.

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They never seemed to have a problem showing off for the girls.

Probably because they were actually attracted to women. They don't want your attention, they don't like men, and if they want to get the ickies about homosexuality, that's their prerogative, even if it's not right. Nobody has to be okay with letting another person ogle them, and I would bet money that they would be as weirded out by some ugly chick doing it to them, too. Nobody wants attention from people they dislike. Showing off for a group of their choosing is not an open invitation for you. This feels a bit like a 'he was asking for it' argument -- wearing a short skirt and being flirtatious or being boisterous for a group of women you want to impress is not an invitation.

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But with me they acted like homosexuality was something they could catch from my gaze, which I didn't usually look much in the locker room.  I changed and left.  It was nothing more or less than ignorance. 
[/color]

Being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance. Not wanting someone to sexually objectify you is not ignorance. Big difference.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2011, 10:27:26 PM »
Being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance.
I think homophobes aren't trying to be ignorant, they fear them. They can't help it.

That's like saying someone who's afraid of the water is ignorant of the ocean's beauty.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2011, 10:41:56 PM »
I think what is technically considered a 'homophobe' is probably pretty rare in the world in spite of how often the term is thrown around to describe those who simply hate/feel disgusted by/disapprove of homosexuality for other reasons.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2011, 10:44:46 PM »
I think what is technically considered a 'homophobe' is probably pretty rare in the world in spite of how often the term is thrown around to describe those who simply hate/feel disgusted by/disapprove of homosexuality for other reasons.

I actually have a dear friend who is deathly afraid of all things homosexual. We get him in a room with someone like that and he starts to freak out and yell at me for bringing them there and I'll be all "It's not like I knew you were going to react this way!"

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2011, 11:14:50 PM »
Personal anecdotes are hardly indicative of a larger trend. More often than not, we toss around the word 'homophobe' as shorthand for people who express some kind of negative attitude towards homosexuals. This is not the same thing as a phobia.

To break it down:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1ANYDIS_ADULT.shtml

26.2% of adults in the US have some kind of disorder. From here, they divide it up further...

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/index.shtml

18% of that goes to anxiety disorder, which also encompasses "specific phobias", as they report.

Agoraphobia: .8%
General anxiety disorder: 3.1%
OCD: 1%
Panic disorder: 2.7%
PTSD: 3.5%
Social phobia: 6.8%
"Specific phobia" (they note: "Specific phobia involves marked and persistent fear and avoidance of a specific object or situation. This type of phobia includes, but is not limited to, the fear of heights, spiders, and flying."): 8.7%.

So if you'd like to factor diagnosed homophobia in with that 8.7%, do remember that that 8.7% is even further divided up amongst other common phobias. Meaning it's incredibly unlikely that every single person who disapproves of homosexuality is an honest-to-goodness homophobe. Don't get me wrong, I don't approve of their behavior either way, but for the common parlance (such as my other post was getting at), disliking homosexuals for reasons other than a true phobia is most likely born from ignorance and in spite of this, it's still creepy and voyeuristic to stare at people in an objectifying way.

Offline ReanimateMagnus

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2011, 11:38:55 PM »
I was just making a joke. Sorry it seemed that you took me so seriously to look all that up.

Offline Jude

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2011, 11:52:56 PM »
Backing up a bit here to an earlier post of Noelle's,
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Being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance. Not wanting someone to sexually objectify you is not ignorance. Big difference.
I don't know that being irrationally afraid of homosexuals is ignorance.  If you're afraid of homosexuals because of ignorance than that (ignorance) is the reason why you're afraid of them.  Irrationality implies that good sense should lead to a different conclusion, but you come to that erroneous conclusion regardless.  Someone who is suffering from arachnophobia is afraid of all spiders, even those that they are aware are not harmful, because of an underlying irrational impulse.

To some extent though, this is semantics:  while it is rational to fear a dog that you believe has killed and eaten your best-friend, it's not objectively correct to fear that dog if in fact your friend is hiding behind a bush after dousing his shirt with ketchup, tearing it, and leaving it between the creature's teeth.

Either way, we can agree that referring to all types of opposition to homosexuality as homophobia is insulting to people who have real phobias and gives opponents of homosexual unwarranted cover while attempting to denigrate them at the same time.  A phobia is a psychological condition that renders its victim pathetic and pitiable, but it's also something that the person suffering from it doesn't have much control over.

What is commonly referred to as "homophobia" could be eradicated if people were more critical of their own beliefs, more discerning in what they choose to accept or reject when incorporating opinions into their worldview, and more open to new ideas.  Calling it homophobia is basically given the "homophobe" an excuse while insulting them by essentially calling them 'crazy.'

Noelle's statistics really bring up the point and highlight just how incorrect that labeling is from an empirical point of view, so I'm not really objecting to what she was saying, just elaborating on it, I guess.  Nevertheless, it was a broader point, and one that I've been hoping would be made for quite some time.  I'd really like to see how people who are really invested in the term "homophobia" respond to her points.

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2011, 02:53:07 AM »
@Noelle
Thanks for clearing that up.  The difficulty (possibly) is that even when there is a precise definition and imprecise ley usage, it still doesn't get round the underlying issue of hostility toward another group of people based on sexual preference... Or have I misunderstood you?  Do you know of a better descriptor (anyone)?

Oh, and (again, a personal opinion) re personal anecdotes (seriously intended ones or not) - if we are looking at things on a population level, no they don't necessary assist. But even humble anecdote is a form of evidence, and not to be dismissed; allbeit "small picture"' rather than "big picture" evidence. It provides insights into the seething Gaussian mass.
[/talking bollocks]
L


Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2011, 03:03:23 AM »
Well, hostility towards a group of people, simply by virtue of those people being part of a certain group is generally called 'bigotry' or 'prejudice'.

Just my $0.02

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2011, 07:25:04 AM »
@Noelle
Thanks for clearing that up.  The difficulty (possibly) is that even when there is a precise definition and imprecise ley usage, it still doesn't get round the underlying issue of hostility toward another group of people based on sexual preference... Or have I misunderstood you?  Do you know of a better descriptor (anyone)?

Absolutely, you're right. As I said in my post, no matter what you call them, their treatment of homosexuals is still unacceptable, but in some ways, syntax does matter -- it's not just being a pedant about it. It's always worth knowing why your 'opponents' feel the way they do because it helps you better understand how to reach them at a personal level and possibly make a difference in their point of view. Boiling their ideological views (since hatred of homosexuality is typically religiously-based with some cultural urging) down to simple 'homophobia', no matter its colloquial use, is kind of marginalizing the bigger issue at hand. Dealing with the fact that someone's ignorance is being fueled by their religion is not an easy thing, but it's advantageous to know because essentially, your lifestyle is an attack on their religion. Dehumanizing people and lowering them through things like righteous indignation and religious zeal is the easiest way these people justify treating you poorly ("Why? 'Cause you're a sinner and I'm forgiven nya nya suck it beeotch, etc."). Now we're starting to get somewhere.

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Oh, and (again, a personal opinion) re personal anecdotes (seriously intended ones or not) - if we are looking at things on a population level, no they don't necessary assist. But even humble anecdote is a form of evidence, and not to be dismissed; allbeit "small picture"' rather than "big picture" evidence. It provides insights into the seething Gaussian mass.
[/talking bollocks]
L

Meh, anecdotes are largely unreliable, which is why I don't like using them and it's why they're also not really counted as sound evidence, at least not usually. The human mind does everything it can to trick you into false memories, exaggerations, confirmation bias, the whole gamut of fallacies within. You're right in that it can be indicative of personal beliefs held within the mass, but even within that mass, how widespread is it? And if it's not widespread at all, what has that anecdote shown us except that a negligible amount of people, at least one that we know of, actually buys it? Paired with more quantitative evidence to give it slightly more legitimacy and applicability to get insight into the psyche of some of these people? That's more like it.

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Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2011, 09:35:44 AM »
If homosexuality should be illegal, eating apples should be, too.

And, I too dislike stereotyping. It's shallow and serves no purpose.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 09:36:48 AM by Nicholas »

Offline Silk

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2011, 09:47:34 AM »
Not that I advocate treating people like shit, certainly you shouldn't treat someone poorly for their sexual orientation, but isn't it understandable that they would be uncomfortable changing in front of you if they knew? If you really were "caught looking", isn't that akin to, say, me (being a woman) being uncomfortable changing in a room full of men who could also presumably be looking in a less-than-innocent manner? It's one thing, I think, for heterosexual men or women to catch a glance at other men and women in the same respective locker room -- you're not changing with your eyes shut (probably) and people are just generally curious about other people, but you introduce a whole different element when there's the potential for actual interest and possibly even arousal/pleasure at seeing other people.

This brings on a whole different debate of how to accommodate people with different sexualities (if it's even possible...do you just make bisexuals change in a closet?), especially when it's so ambiguous, but I can understand and somewhat sympathize with those who feel strangely about undressing in front of someone who's attracted to their sex. It's not to say every gay man is attracted to every man just because he's got a penis (that's definitely not true), but it's kind of similar logic to why we divide men and women's locker rooms.

The problem is, where do you draw the line? People with disabilities, or amputations, or trans, or embarrasing birth marks, or overweight and alike can all claim the same "I don't like people looking at me for what I am" issues and although polite, peoples eyes would be drawn to someone who is say, missing his lower left arm.  By far the easiest fix is to have changing cubicles rather than rooms, but that has already been implimented in quite a few places already.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 09:56:08 AM by Silk »

Offline rick957

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2011, 11:41:48 AM »
I just skimmed over this thread today for the first time, and I wanted to point out something.

This is one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen, anywhere:

Quote
I really had to sit down and think about what I've posted. It does, now, make sense that a person is ultimately inclined towards one sexuality through their birth.  Thanks Shjade, for understanding my point of view. I still believe, to some degree, people choose whether or not to be straight or gay, solely on a conscience level. You're spot-on.

It appears that this person was convinced to change a strongly-held personal view by engaging in rational discourse with other people who had different views.

Seriously, in my opinion, that pretty much NEVER happens. 

Most people who engage in rational debate with other people believe that they themselves are open to changing their views based on their discussions with others, when in fact, most people form their personal views based on emotion or cultural upbringing or peer influence, and those views are largely impervious to change by the mere process of reasoning ... especially if the reasoning is influenced by others and not strictly a matter of private reflection ... especially especially if the discussion happens in any kind of public setting, where no one wants to do anything remotely resembling losing face in front of another person.

So anyway.  Just sayin'.  :)

Wow!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 11:43:05 AM by rick957 »

Offline MasterMischief

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2011, 02:48:10 PM »
If homosexuality should be illegal, eating apples should be, too.

Bah!  I say we outlaw heterosexuality.  Make it punishable by death.  Now let's see how much of a 'choice' sexuality is.

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2011, 07:01:40 PM »
And, I too dislike stereotyping. It's shallow and serves no purpose.

Not necessarily! Grouping things together in a convenient box is a pretty standard function of the human brain. It categorizes things for easier retrieval later so the brain can say, "Hey, I've encountered this before, so this is the way I should react". It's not necessarily fair or just, as we've seen with homosexuals, but being totally devoid of judgment on any living thing ever isn't the solution, either. Stereotyping serves a purpose, but as creatures who have overcome base instinct, we should be able to reason above that, seeing how we've already reasoned past many of our other outdated instincts, as well (key word here being should :\).

The problem is, where do you draw the line? People with disabilities, or amputations, or trans, or embarrasing birth marks, or overweight and alike can all claim the same "I don't like people looking at me for what I am" issues and although polite, peoples eyes would be drawn to someone who is say, missing his lower left arm.  By far the easiest fix is to have changing cubicles rather than rooms, but that has already been implimented in quite a few places already.

I think this is a debate that is largely different from sexual attraction. Being insecure is not the same as not wanting to be sexually objectified. Being sexually objectified, in fact, is directly opposite to the notion of people looking at you "for who you are". Would you or anyone else here argue for unisex locker rooms to change in if it really doesn't matter? If we separate by sex for more than just your body parts, that implies there is another factor involved. We've all seen it in pop culture more than enough times -- the mischievous teenage boys trying to drill holes through the wall to gaze in on the naked girls. That is directly related to sexual orientation and sexual attraction.

With that in mind, I would be open to someone explaining to me how this instance of verboten locker room peeping is considered inappropriate and perverted, but how a gay man or woman peeping on those they're attracted to of the same sex in the same locker room is not.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't really have the perfect solution for something like this. I'm not sure how we could go about improving upon the locker room situation to be more accommodating, especially as it becomes more and more acceptable to be openly gay in our society. There are always going to be exceptions that slip through the cracks that have to innovate their own method of dealing with things, but I don't see being uncomfortable changing in the same room as a gay person as something totally outlandish or hard to understand.

Offline Silk

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2011, 05:06:44 AM »
Except that the results are still the same, just the reason behind it is different. It still results in people paying an unwanted attention to someone else, the only real difference is why, and that its now the majority rather than the minority that is being looked at.

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2011, 08:13:25 AM »
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As I mentioned earlier, I don't really have the perfect solution for something like this

Which brings up the possibility that there isn't one...
In is possible that it returns to what you and others have written previously about it. Staring at someone in a locker room because they have physical impairments is not necessarily socially acceptable, but is arguably more understandable from the "does not conform to the norm" therefore people stare perspective. The sexual aspect becomes more complex. So, guys in a locker room may "look up to" certain others as the alpha male and look in admiration. Is this sexual? One might argue no , definitely not. But there is still a great deal of "homoerotic" behaviour that appears to pervade western male culture. The difficulty, I suppose, is when does the unspoken barrier get crossed?  Are those who are perceived to be homosexual breaking tacit rules of homoerotic behaviour by crossing the barrier of having thought about it to having done something about it?  In male behaviours relating to anti-homosexuality this may be a contributor to the threatening behavior that occurs in such situations. Personally, I think there may be a bit of a deep-seated fear that if they went through with it that they might actually enjoy it.

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2011, 10:46:47 AM »
But there is still a great deal of "homoerotic" behaviour that appears to pervade western male culture. The difficulty, I suppose, is when does the unspoken barrier get crossed?  Are those who are perceived to be homosexual breaking tacit rules of homoerotic behaviour by crossing the barrier of having thought about it to having done something about it?  In male behaviours relating to anti-homosexuality this may be a contributor to the threatening behavior that occurs in such situations.

Maybe they should ban butt-slapping in football, bro-hugs, and [noembed]that Bud Light commercial[/noembed].  (is kidding, of course)

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2011, 03:35:16 PM »
Except that the results are still the same, just the reason behind it is different. It still results in people paying an unwanted attention to someone else, the only real difference is why, and that its now the majority rather than the minority that is being looked at.

So why should we separate the sexes at all if it is as insignificant as you are implying it to be?

Maybe it's a failure of understanding on my part, but it almost sounds like people are taking offense to the idea that straight people aren't comfortable being looked at in a potentially sexual way by a gay person. This is baffling to me.

Which brings up the possibility that there isn't one...

That was the point. I don't know that I'm seriously advocating that we divide locker rooms up into as few groups as possible to avoid any and all weird situations (it's neither practical nor possible), but my original objection was to Serephino's mindset. Being uncomfortable at someone looking at you in a sexually explicit way may be due in part to a hypothetical hatred of homosexuality, but I would be similarly creeped out if it were a heterosexual male looking at me in a locker room setting.

Quote
In is possible that it returns to what you and others have written previously about it. Staring at someone in a locker room because they have physical impairments is not necessarily socially acceptable, but is arguably more understandable from the "does not conform to the norm" therefore people stare perspective. The sexual aspect becomes more complex. So, guys in a locker room may "look up to" certain others as the alpha male and look in admiration. Is this sexual? One might argue no , definitely not. But there is still a great deal of "homoerotic" behaviour that appears to pervade western male culture. The difficulty, I suppose, is when does the unspoken barrier get crossed?  Are those who are perceived to be homosexual breaking tacit rules of homoerotic behaviour by crossing the barrier of having thought about it to having done something about it?  In male behaviours relating to anti-homosexuality this may be a contributor to the threatening behavior that occurs in such situations. Personally, I think there may be a bit of a deep-seated fear that if they went through with it that they might actually enjoy it.

Erm, it sounds to me like you're arguing that being gay is a pass to sexually objectify anyone you want without consequence and it should be okay because that other person is probably just afraid they'll like it and they do other things that could be perceived as homoerotic anyway. This does not bode well with me.

Even if that's not what you're saying, using it as justification is a bit of a poor excuse anyway -- what does it matter, even if they really are just "afraid they might like it"? Isn't it their business as to whether or not they want to explore that and through what means, if any? If a man used that excuse against a woman, you know that just wouldn't fly; you can't say "I grabbed your ass, but I thought you might like it!" It doesn't matter if I did or didn't like it, forcing others in vulnerable situations to confront that is always inappropriate. It doesn't matter if I like to make out with girls at the bar or if a man wants to do dumb stuff like snap each other with towels out of the shower, it's not a carte blanche for anyone else in the locker room to stare in an objectifying manner at other people in a state of undress.

I don't deny that their states of outrage can be overblown due to an underlying hatred or disapproval of gays, and that much I would not try to justify. However, I can understand their discomfort with the idea of taking their clothes off in front of homosexual individuals in the same light that I would not want to change my clothes in a locker room full of men for the same reason.

Online Oniya

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2011, 03:53:02 PM »
This may be TMI, but I've attended a few *cough* 'clothing-optional' events.  The first time, when I got there and realized that 'they weren't kidding', I avoided looking anywhere but at people's eyes.  By the time the event was over (four-day weekend), it was no big deal, and the next time I attended - let's say I packed a lot less.  I'm sure that there were straight males and gay and bi females who could have potentially been 'scoping me out', but the respect for boundaries that everyone showed the first time made me feel a lot more comfortable.  In fact, there was a joke at the post-event pizza party of 'Oh, so that's what you look like with your clothes on!'  and variations of that from multiple people.

Now, I'm not saying that clothing-optional is any sort of solution, but we could go a long way by promoting mutual respect for boundaries. 

Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2011, 04:12:18 PM »
Mutual respect is key. Forcing people into uncomfortable situations is not respectful. I think it's possible to be subtle, certainly so outside of a locker room setting, but if you're going to try and you get caught looking in a locker room, I think you have it coming that someone would be upset with you about it.

Offline Langueduchatte

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2011, 02:28:59 AM »

Thanks for your opinion, Noelle.  Just a few things, though...

Quote
Erm, it sounds to me like you're arguing that being gay is a pass to sexually objectify anyone you want without consequence and it should be okay because that other person is probably just afraid they'll like it and they do other things that could be perceived as homoerotic anyway. This does not bode well with me.


Erm...well, I have thought much about how to reply to this. And there are a number of ways to answer, so, I'll try this one:
 It sounds like that to you?  Ok.  You can chose to (mis)interpret what I wrote in any way you please.

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Even if that's not what you're saying, using it as justification is a bit of a poor excuse anyway -- what does it matter, even if they really are just "afraid they might like it"? Isn't it their business as to whether or not they want to explore that and through what means, if any?
I like the way you start that sentence.  "Even if..."  It's a good trick.  Because even if I choose to explain myself now...well, is there really a point in bothering?


Like I say, you could interpret it that way.  But for me when you get to
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If a man used that excuse against a woman, you know that just wouldn't fly; you can't say "I grabbed your ass, but I thought you might like it!"
  it may come across as a well-reasoned argument, but that could also be interpreted as sophistry.


Quote
It doesn't matter if I did or didn't like it, forcing others in vulnerable situations to confront that is always inappropriate. It doesn't matter if I like to make out with girls at the bar or if a man wants to do dumb stuff like snap each other with towels out of the shower, it's not a carte blanche for anyone else in the locker room to stare in an objectifying manner at other people in a state of undress.

Couldn't agree more.
I think I'll bow out of this one.  Clearly I'm not intelligent enough, so I'll keep my opinions to myself!
 :D




Offline Noelle

Re: Homosexuality Should Be Illegal
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2011, 07:27:46 AM »
If you interpreted what I said as offensive or questioning your intelligence, I apologize if that's how it came across because it wasn't my intent. I am open to clarification on your points that I misinterpreted -- I can't read your mind, so my interpretation is really all I've got for you, but if you're done, you're done, and I will respect that. However, passing up any and all discussion by writing off everything I said as sophistry and with your own sarcasm is also kind of disrespectful.