European Immigrant Crisis

[Shiva]

Also, why do certain nationalist groups have an obsession with inventing 'rape epidemics' as the frontline of their anti-immigrant rhetoric?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/crime-sweden-rape-capital-europe/

Snopes is extremely left-wing, politically biased. It's not a good source for fact checking.

[midnightblack]

Shiva, Sweden really doesn't speak for the situation across Europe. It is quite a particular case and, as far as I know, its immigration policies are almost entirely self-imposed and not under any specific EU directive. I'm not denying your claims, I'm simply saying that what you are experiencing isn't due to the "Orwellian over-state".

Whenever there's the national/independence day in my country, there's at least one bastard from a particular minority that either does something really stupid or insulting (like hanging a mock-up of some important historical figure, or harboring invented flags for made-up regions that request autonomy), or dangerous (once there was an idiot that attempted to plant a make-shift bomb in a dumpster and detonate it during a parade). I guess silly dances would be preferable to that, but I understand your frustration. What you need to keep in mind is that you aren't a victim of the government's conspiracy against its own people. While the problems that you face are real, more likely than not they will eventually come to a positive resolution, in due time. There will always be cultural friction between different groups, but I hope we're at that point in history where we can sort them out without mass murdering each other.

[TheGlyphstone]

Snopes is extremely left-wing, politically biased. It's not a good source for fact checking.

Do you have an alternative to recommend, one that provides an equivalent basis of statistics and citations without that bias?

[Vekseid]

Snopes is extremely left-wing, politically biased. It's not a good source for fact checking.

They've posted some right-leaning stuff as well. They do sometimes gloss over things that people might find otherwise important. Their article on the 'trans*' bond girl glosses over her Klinefelter syndrome - she has more X chromosomes than most women.

But they don't outright lie. If you bothered to read the article you'd find it presents a major flaw in Glyph's argument. It just doesn't call it out.

Rapes may not have increased in any significant quantity but sexual harassment of women has certainly spiked.

[Shiva]

Shiva, Sweden really doesn't speak for the situation across Europe. It is quite a particular case and, as far as I know, its immigration policies are almost entirely self-imposed and not under any specific EU directive. I'm not denying your claims, I'm simply saying that what you are experiencing isn't due to the "Orwellian over-state".

Whenever there's the national/independence day in my country, there's at least one bastard from a particular minority that either does something really stupid or insulting (like hanging a mock-up of some important historical figure, or harboring invented flags for made-up regions that request autonomy), or dangerous (once there was an idiot that attempted to plant a make-shift bomb in a dumpster and detonate it during a parade). I guess silly dances would be preferable to that, but I understand your frustration. What you need to keep in mind is that you aren't a victim of the government's conspiracy against its own people. While the problems that you face are real, more likely than not they will eventually come to a positive resolution, in due time. There will always be cultural friction between different groups, but I hope we're at that point in history where we can sort them out without mass murdering each other.

While you are correct that Sweden is an extreme example, our situation is definitely the fault and result of former, mentally insane politicians like Fredrik Reinfeldt, who literally wants to remove the native population. The current Prime Minister is no better.

Do you have an alternative to recommend, one that provides an equivalent basis of statistics and citations without that bias?

Unfortunately, no. Everything is either too much left or right leaning. Your own judgement is probably best at this point, checking police reports and original sources of some incident.

Rapes may not have increased in any significant quantity but sexual harassment of women has certainly spiked.

It certainly has in Sweden. Mainstream media refuse to report on it, so you have to go to news outlets that dig in police reports and statistic.

[gaggedLouise]

Difficult times at the southern borders of Europe: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/24/european-leaders-urged-to-guarantee-safe-ports-for-migrants

[Sara Nilsson]

As someone who used to live smack dab in what many would call a no go zone in Malmo, i can safely say its horseshit. I often heard from other Swedes (usually rather right wing ones) or from people in other countries that this area was really bad, police couldn't enter etc. And I felt as safe there as any other part of the city. I never was harassed by the immigrants, Swedes on the other hand would make comments about me being trans.

[Shiva]

As someone who used to live smack dab in what many would call a no go zone in Malmo, i can safely say its horseshit. I often heard from other Swedes (usually rather right wing ones) or from people in other countries that this area was really bad, police couldn't enter etc. And I felt as safe there as any other part of the city. I never was harassed by the immigrants, Swedes on the other hand would make comments about me being trans.

Your personal experience doesn't change the overall picture, though. But, the core problem is that the picture is always painted in an extreme way. It's either Hell on Earth or Paradise on Earth, none of which is true.

[Vekseid]

It's not always painted in an extreme way.

People react the most to extremes, though, and there is a hostile foreign power that's been fomenting this shit for decades.

We need ways to counteract mass disinformation. One part of which is recognizing the part you play in it.

[Shiva]

It's not always painted in an extreme way.

People react the most to extremes, though, and there is a hostile foreign power that's been fomenting this shit for decades.

We need ways to counteract mass disinformation. One part of which is recognizing the part you play in it.

And what exactly is that 'hostile foreign power'? Or, who, rather. It always seems to be either Russia or Israel depending on who you ask.

Isn't disinformation an unfortunate element of freedom of 'this and that'? And what part am I playing in disinformation?

Just to be clear, I'm curious, not trying to instigate.

[Lustful Bride]

And what exactly is that 'hostile foreign power'? Or, who, rather. It always seems to be either Russia or Israel depending on who you ask.

Isn't disinformation an unfortunate element of freedom of 'this and that'? And what part am I playing in disinformation?

Just to be clear, I'm curious, not trying to instigate.

I would personally say Russia, (possibly china but they might be more focused on eating up their neighbors) since it benefits them most to destabilize the West with infighting. This is a trick that they actually tried before in the days of the Soviet Union, trying to inflame boths sides of the civil rights movement and cause violence rather than discussion, now they just do it with mouse clicks.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/05/11/what-we-found-facebook-ads-russians-accused-election-meddling/602319002/

[Skynet]

I have no idea who this Lauren Southern is, and I don't know about any propaganda. Unless you live here and see it, you can't really make statements about it and call it 'propaganda'.

Your personal experience doesn't change the overall picture, though. But, the core problem is that the picture is always painted in an extreme way. It's either Hell on Earth or Paradise on Earth, none of which is true.

There is no conspiracy when you live here and see all the news unfolding over an extended period of time. When you put it all together, it looks really bad. When you just look at parts of it or look at it from the outside, it doesn't look bad at all. It's very much about 'unless you live here', because it radically changes your perception.

I know that there is an alt-right and they are severely exaggerating, but so is the left about how safe and good everything is—that is also severely exaggerated, because things are not safe and not good here.

Our national / independence day has been hijacked by politicians that remove most aspects of Swedish culture and replace it with middle eastern culture. Here is an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms0wNrBt3QU

The 'no-go zones' are in the shift from 'places where police only travel to in groups' to 'police gave up entire neighborhoods to be self-policed by immigrants', because now we're seeing more and more Sharia police that patrol the streets of certain suburbs instead, and police either don't bother or don't have the resources, because all the money goes to immigrant welfare.

As for the 'Communist police-state', it might not be what it was at the beginning of the 1900s, but it surely isn't gone. Key individuals of mainstream media are Maoists and Stalinist, there are thought police on the internet that hunt people down on Facebook for new and old comments they make about immigrants (see #jagärhär, researchgruppen, etc.), and over a million of our elderly are now starving and living below the poverty line because of this reckless immigration.

So, I'm sorry. I doesn't really matter what you say, nothing will change what reality is.

You've created a logical bubble where you can dismiss any comments or sources which contradict your narrative of predominately Muslim immigrants and political Quislings being in on a plot to kill off Sweden's Nordic population. When a foreigner like myself uses sources, you dismiss them. When someone who lives in Sweden brings up the same, you say that their experience is not the norm.

While you are correct that Sweden is an extreme example, our situation is definitely the fault and result of former, mentally insane politicians like Fredrik Reinfeldt, who literally wants to remove the native population. The current Prime Minister is no better.

Unfortunately, no. Everything is either too much left or right leaning. Your own judgement is probably best at this point, checking police reports and original sources of some incident.

It certainly has in Sweden. Mainstream media refuse to report on it, so you have to go to news outlets that dig in police reports and statistic.

And when a person in a thread asks for recommended sources from you, you cannot give any on your own and cannot cite specifics.


In that regard, I asked around with some Scandinavian acquaintances regarding some other claims, namely that Sweden was in danger of falling into Communism:

Sweden around this time was undergoing a modernization period and higher standard of living. During its industrialization period, it sought to stay out of the affairs of foreign conflicts involving German and Soviet expansion. Its majority government was of a liberal/social democracy ideology (which is different from communist/socialist, in that liberals are still in favor of capitalism and private property). Communists tend to either favor a centrally-planned economy with a bureaucracy handling most aspects of life, or decentralized enclaves where majority vote decides everything. The former's much more common than the latter, which has mostly been in the realm of Marxist theory than actual practice.

Historically speaking, Marxist governments arose when things were really shitty. Tsarist Russia, Batista's Cuba, Japan-occupied Korea and China, and French-occupied Vietnam. Low standards of living, a dictatorial government, feudalist/non-existing social structures and programs, and domination by authoritarian or foreign powers are the primary signifiers historically of whether or not Communism arose as a major political force. As far as I can tell, Sweden then or now does not meet said standards.

As for recently, tankie ideologies such as Stalinism don't seem very populate in Sweden. The major Marxist-Leninist (aka Stalinist) party I can find is the Swedish Communist Party, who formed in the 1970s and only has 3 out of 13,000 seats in the municipal government. Given that most news stations veer towards either being seemingly neutral (CNN) or are backed by a major political party (Fox News or MSNBC) for big mainstream news organizations to be cheerleading for a very tiny ideology is...counterproductive, at best. Sweden also celebrates a European Day of Remembrance for those murdered under Marxist and Fascist regimes, and its former Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt personally observed it.

And regarding Fredrik Reinfeldt and his supposed policies to kill off the majority indigenous population...

...I could find no reliable mention of this via Google and the proper keywords (Indigenous, native, etc). His Wikipedia article paints him as an overall moderate, nor is there mention of him believed to suffer from mental disorders during his time in office. At least, from any mainstream publications.

I can predict that you'll claim that the reason I cannot find this supposed "white genocide" conspiracy theory is that nobody in the media's talking about it.

Except that people are.

Said people include Russia Today, which is a propaganda arm of the Kremlin and has supported Putin's more authoritarian policies, and also was mysteriously absent in reporting said leader's anti-gay policies and correlated violent hate crimes against LGBT people as a result.

And Peter Sweden, a notable alt-right YouTuber who believes that the Holocaust is a lie. He claims to have disavowed this statement when people called him on it, but he still hangs around many fascists.

And Breitbart News, whose major writers and managers at the time, Steven Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos, were exposed for playing nice to white nationalists by seeding their talking points into mainstream conservatism.

In spite of your earlier pretense at "both sides," your talking points align more or less with the far-right. Your only two sources in this thread are mixed, Ingrid Lomfors is your strongest point, but another poster pointed out that her political views have actually caused her trouble in maintaining steady employment: So she has pushback even in her own social circles.

I would add that Ingrid Lomfors is a highly controversial figure who has been recruited (handpicked?) for several high-profile posts in the museums and academic history sector, and has been fired or forced to leave most of them, one after the other, after controversial statements or conflicts with the personnel she was supposed to lead. Many of her statements and projects have been about presenting a guilt-tripping narrative of the modern history of Sweden, on weak or clearly biased grounds, and for some reason ordinary people seem to react to this more strongly than politicians do.  ??? Her remarks at that 2015 conference would have been judged as extreme in most western countries (if they had been about the majority culture of the country in question); in Sweden they were in tune with what some elite people expected, but since 2015 both the political climate and the discussion in the media have adjusted a bit. I don't think she could have made those statements today at a top-brass event without a *lot* of openly voiced criticism afterwards.

And your second source is Arabs dancing during a national/independence day. Which as far as examples of ethnic cleansing is rather weak. You may have a point to make if they banned Nordic traditions and media to "counteract" it or something: arts and entertainment aren't a zero-sum game.


The burden of proof of an extreme statement requires extreme evidence, even if it's supposedly "grounded in reality." If it was, the primary advocates would not be fashy media outlets with a proven tendency for lying in order to stir up racial hatred.

[gaggedLouise]

Also, relating to the "Sweden is borderline communist" or "They were at risk of becoming Stalinist" thing, this is nonsense. The Social Democrats were a dominating party over here for more than sixty years, before the mid-nineties often scoring between 40 and 48% in elections - the one time they reached past 50% was, surprise, in 1968 - and sometimes leaned on the Communist party (the somewhat more reasonable CP, today: the Left Party - not the guys who now call themselves the Communists) to get laws through parliament, but democracy was never in danger. The Communist/Left party have never held a government seat - the Social Democrats refused it. Also, Sweden has a long tradition of trying to reach across the aisle with major political decisions.

The notion that Swedish polictics were communist anyway relies on the trope of the small Communist party tail wagging the dog of the much larger Social Democrat party. I think said trope also exists in the US - you just remove the word "social". :D

[Shiva]

I'm not going to get into this. I simply don't have time or energy for it, as it leads nowhere. I'm not a politician. You can read a book by Fredrik Reinfeldt called 'Det Sovande Folket' or watch his political debates. People really need to stop relying on Google and Wikipedia. But, at least you've managed to make yet another person dislike this section of the forum.

[Sara Nilsson]

So another when pressed to give some actual proof of their statements will just say.. don't have time. ok..

Also he has stated that he regrets ever writing that book.

”Det sovande folket” skrevs trots allt för över 20 år sedan. Kan inte en statsminister få ändra sig?

translated> The sleeping people was after all written over 20 years ago, can not a prime minister be allowed to change his mind?

Second as far as I can remember it doesn't advocate for killing off the people. It is a crazy book sure and complains wildly about the wellfare state and how it weakens people, but quote a page number where he describes how he wants to kill off the population. He is describing a possible dystopian future where such things happen, he does NOT advocate for it. There is a huge difference. I would say he is trying to advocate against it. Though I think the book is a disaster and I can't blame him from trying to pretend he never wrote it. And that is the thing, if this is what he believed he would be promoting it. Instead he has done everything to try and bury that book.

It has been several years ago since I read it, but I do remember him going against what he wrote in earlier pages many many times. And I am not the only one to think so. Many cirtis will say it is rambling, he argues with himself and many of the pieces just doesn't make sense. But he isn't advocating for killing off the indigenous population. He is advocating against the wellfare state, stating that anything over help to not starve to death shouldn't come from the state budget etc. But, lets face it. That is hardly the same as killing off people. if that is the case I would argue that the republican party here in the USA is trying to kill off the indigenous people too with the massive cuts to wellfare and health care.

[Vekseid]

And what exactly is that 'hostile foreign power'? Or, who, rather. It always seems to be either Russia or Israel depending on who you ask.

Isn't disinformation an unfortunate element of freedom of 'this and that'? And what part am I playing in disinformation?

Just to be clear, I'm curious, not trying to instigate.

Well, a lot of countries do this, though in Israel's and China's cases it is more directly policy driven.

I've been meaning to do a longer post on the shit Putin and his gang are up to, but what Russia does is mostly to sow discord. There's some easily observable evidence of this = I posted this shortly after the Russians took control over Wikileaks in 2010.

That incident never got resolved in an open fashion, and two of their servers still run out of Moscow:

host wikileaks.org
wikileaks.org has address 95.211.113.131
wikileaks.org has address 141.105.65.113
wikileaks.org has address 195.35.109.44
wikileaks.org has address 95.211.113.154
wikileaks.org has address 195.35.109.53
wikileaks.org has address 141.105.69.239
wikileaks.org mail is handled by 1 mx.wikileaks.org.

The 141. addresses.

Wikileaks was about to make a major release about Russia.

Then they got their domain hijacked, as documented on Elliquiy itself here, on Spamhaus of all places, and elsewhere.

Then Assange got his own bit on RT.

You don't need to trust anyone but yourself to dig this up and verify it.



You can see Reddit's report here - lots of white supremacists, some very odd language, and the occasional African supremacist to round things out.

So you have your sources for these rape statistics that you claim are being hidden - who are they? Who runs these sites?