Last Jedi is bad *Spoilers*

Started by Evil Tim, December 15, 2017, 07:29:26 AM

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mia h

Quote from: wander on December 19, 2017, 08:22:43 AM
I mentioned once to my friend on the topic of Lucas and his creative outlook that more than likely the Ewoks were a big thing he wanted. They seem more in theme with the prequel films than anything we got in New Hope and Empire.
The Ewoks were originally going to be Wookies but after having Chewy is seen fixing the Falcon it was hard to sell the idea that the every other Wookie fought a with stick. So they chopped Wookie in half and got an Ewok.
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WindFish

This is one of the better reviews I've seen, and it perfectly sums up my thoughts on the movie.

Spoilers, obviously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXB3DAU9xmc

Just because a film doesn't cater to fans or live up to your expectations doesn't make it bad. I think that was one of the main themes of the movie in regards to failure and high expectations. They have to start doing different things with Star Wars before it gets too repetitive, which is why I'm glad they decided to take risks and not cater to fan service.

It's by no means a flawless movie, but it's not anywhere near as bad as some people are saying.
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RubySlippers

Why should they you understand why they had two Chinese women in the movie who were heroes and the love interest, to appeal to the Chinese and Asian foreign movie markets, the same reason in Rogue One the Chinese blind monk was a well regarded Chinese market actor the money. They don't care about the hardcore fans they know each movie means a lot of return on the investment and they will add women to appeal to women, ethnic persons to appeal to ethnic persons Del Toro is a very popular Latin American actor hello as the reason he was added and so forth. Old fans might drop away but they know more people will be new fans and likely even the hardcore fans will likely go see them once each because its Star Wars and they will be curious.

Its about the money.

Norsegod1839

I loved it.... To me the last jedi is exactly what star wars is. Not about who your parents are or your family destiny but how the force belongs to everyone and all you need is hope.

The ending of the movie with the kid starring out at the horizon and looking up at the stars is the theme of star wars hook line and sinker. Luke started in exactly the same place just a kid from Tatoine who dreamed and hoped for something better and did his best to do it.

Nostalgia

Quote from: Inkidu on December 17, 2017, 12:04:38 PM
It's really simple with me. I didn't like VII so I'm not going to watch any of the other ones. I'll always hold that Star Wars has more to do with what age you watch it at more than the quality of the actual films being presented, and I'm sticking by that. I thought Force Awakens was so badly done with Rey being grossly mishandled and such a Mary Sue that I don't think there's a fertile enough foundation for a solid trilogy. If another generation of kids can like it though, more power to them.

without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.

Norsegod1839

Quote from: Nostalgia on December 19, 2017, 05:44:33 PM
without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.

I agree with that one! It is kind of a FU to TFA which might be why I enjoyed it because I didnt like TFA and thought its problems were solved in this one.

TheSithChicken

Quote from: Nostalgia on December 19, 2017, 05:44:33 PM
without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.

If what you hated about 7 was the characters I don't think 8 will have fixed that problem.

Nostalgia

JJ is very nostalgic and reverent of the series and RJ is very "people who worship these movies and characters are ridiculous"

JJ tried very hard to do intrigue and mystery boxes and RJ is almost meta in knocking them down and saying they're either dumb or don't matter.

so yeah if you have a hard on for the OT characters, 8 will not be your jam. the whole message is that real people don't have arcs where they get over their bad habits. we're like addicts, we slip back into bad habits all the time. we only "grow" in the sense that we recognize our own worst tendencies. etc.

but if you complained about 7 being a remake, this is... not a remake.

TheSithChicken

I complained that 7 was bad from beginning to end. It being a remake was - at best - a minor irritation.

Nostalgia

i mean, people like and dislike things for different reasons, it's okay.

we're 2/3 through the sequel trilogy and i think it's a very decent modern star wars story. there are problems (some illogical situations, the new guys aren't as good as the OT characters because they've been admiring the OT characters or fucking things up or presumed dead or whatever)

and they were caught in a tight space between letting luke dominate this new trilogy or reverting his character and neither choice would make everyone happy.

but man there were a lot of BAD movie-product things put out this year, and TLJ was not one of them. this is an auteur story with dope visuals, philosophy/theme, exciting fights, good comedy. so if it's not you're thing, okay, but i'd personally like star wars to be more like this imo.

TheSithChicken

I just want good movies. Nothing I have heard about this movie makes it sound like one. The story sounds absolutely nonsensical, it utterly destroys any possibility of the trilogy making sense, and the characters are garbage. If I want good comedic space action I'll watch Guardians of the Galaxy. If I want good space fantasy i'll watch Thor Ragnarok.

wander


Inkidu

#62
Quote from: Nostalgia on December 19, 2017, 05:44:33 PM
without spoiling anything, 8 is, thematically, a very strong refutation to 7.

it feels written by someone who didn't care for TFA. so if you hated 7 you should give 8 a try.
That's actually worse.

It's the same reason why the Mass Effect Trilogy failed. Lucas basically had a hand in writing all six films. Could he have used some more editing and less protection from editors? Yeah, but the voice stays consistent.

To be brief on my point and it's one I share with Shamus Young: Everyone thinks that Mass Effect fell apart at the third game. No, it fell apart at Mass Effect 2. Yes it has wonderful gameplay and characters, but the game was written by a guy (and I realize it's more than one person but for the sake of simplicity one guy) who hated the world-building of ME 1. So if there was something to fix in TFA then having someone who hated it and tore it all down is probably not good, because this tug-of-war is going to make IX terrible.
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HannibalBarca

I got done watching this video, and HelloGreedo pretty much summed up the film with my exact feelings on the film.  No really, he spot-on says what I feel and have been saying in this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8YjTP5_SO4

Of course, HelloGreedo got a lot of pushback in the comments section, but that's nothing new on YouTube.
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TheSithChicken

#64
Quote from: HannibalBarca on December 19, 2017, 11:10:56 PM
I got done watching this video, and HelloGreedo pretty much summed up the film with my exact feelings on the film.  No really, he spot-on says what I feel and have been saying in this thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8YjTP5_SO4

Of course, HelloGreedo got a lot of pushback in the comments section, but that's nothing new on YouTube.

Subverting an expectation is about twisting the ending. What he is describing here is failing to pay off on a storyline. Subverting can help tell a good story. Failure to pay off is an egregious writing sin. He literally doesn't understand the writing conventions that he is talking about.

He literally says that what the viewer wants doesn't matter... except it really, really does when you spend years hyping a movie and getting them to see it under a certain set of assumptions. Like that movie will have more connections to the first movie in the series than simply having the same characters. I didn't like the Force Awakens but simply casting it all aside to be "different" is slipshod piss poor edgelord writing. If he wanted to not follow the story of the Force Awakens he could have simply waiting for his own trilogy. All this does is insure that this trilogy will be incoherent and schizophrenic in mood.

gaggedLouise

#65
Not planning to watch it - I saw VII and it was good but still felt a bit haphazard and I'm not that much invested in Star Wars as a whole, never have been.

I just read a mournful, disenchanted review of the film and the underlying problems of wrapping up a multi-part sci-fi epic like this one in an age when the film and tv inductry want to have the option of endlessly adding new parts, sequels. prequels and reboots.  For people who have followed SW ever since the first trilogy and who loved it, and its actors, these final three probably won't ever fulfil what the story "should have become" in their minds. How do you actually make a good continuation/sequel to a massively successful series of films from forty years ago? The original actors are around retirement age by now, Carrie Fisher is gone, and the whole sense of optimism and romanticism about space that prevailed back in the 60s and 70s is difficult to recapture too - even though we now know a lot more about actual alien solar systems.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/star-wars-is-dead-gen-xers-get-over-it/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=20732020982974576184239190769818

The reviewer says he felt a sense of anger and failed opportunities. In part he was thinking Disney had done a botched job, but the real trouble is that with Luke played by  a man who was about 65 years old during the filming and Princess Leia by a 60-year old lady who died towards the end of the movie shoot, mourned by many millions of fans, there won't be a truly satisfying ending, and just seeing them on the screen becomes a reminder of the passage of time. It's like watching Bob Dylan attempting songs about young rebellion that he did better than anybody else when he was 23, but now he's 75 and his voice is half gone... :( I had a quick look at the plot at Wikipedia and it does look like the final showdown between Luke and Kylo becomes a bit of a contrived joke to get around the difficulty of staging a duel with a much older Luke who still should appear young and fearless - we still think of him as the young swashbuckler. It just doesn't look like it's holding together that well.

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Inkidu

Quote from: gaggedLouise on December 20, 2017, 04:31:33 AM
Not planning to watch it - I saw VII and it was good but still felt a bit haphazard and I'm not that much invested in Star Wars as a whole, never have been.

I just read a mournful, disenchanted review of the film and the underlying problems of wrapping up a multi-part sci-fi epic like this one in an age when the film and tv inductry want to have the option of endlessly adding new parts, sequels. prequels and reboots.  For people who have followed SW ever since the first trilogy and who loved it, and its actors, these final three probably won't ever fulfil what the story "should have become" in their minds. How do you actually make a good continuation/sequel to a massively successful series of films from forty years ago? The original actors are around retirement age by now, Carrie Fisher is gone, and the whole sense of optimism and romanticism about space that prevailed back in the 60s and 70s is difficult to recapture too - even though we now know a lot more about actual alien solar systems.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/star-wars-is-dead-gen-xers-get-over-it/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_related&ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=20732020982974576184239190769818

The reviewer says he felt a sense of anger and failed opportunities. In part he was thinking Disney had done a botched job, but the real trouble is that with Luke played by  a man who was about 65 years old during the filming and Princess Leia by a 60-year old lady who died towards the end of the movie shoot, mourned by many millions of fans, there won't be a truly satisfying ending, and just seeing them on the screen becomes a reminder of the passage of time. It's like watching Bob Dylan attempting songs about young rebellion that he did better than anybody else when he was 23, but now he's 75 and his voice is half gone... :( I had a quick look at the plot at Wikipedia and it does look like the final showdown between Luke and Kylo becomes a bit of a contrived joke to get around the difficulty of staging a duel with a much older Luke who still should appear young and fearless - we still think of him as the young swashbuckler. It just doesn't look like it's holding together that well.

I think the fanservice and pandering of this trilogy so far comes off less as heartfelt homage and more, "Don't worry, Star Wars is eternal, it has never changed, never will change, and all you longtime fans are never going to succumb to the ravages of age. After all if you can still recapture the magic of an eternally optimistic child then there's hope. Right?"

But (and I'm not saying Abram's had the talent to do this, because he doesn't, bad Inki leave the nice, rich, bafflinglly-successful director alone; pick on someone your own size) if this new trilogy had sought to actually tell a unique story to capture a new generation of viewers instead a pale facsimile of doing that. Fans would have Prequel'd all over the place because they'd have to face their own looming morbidity.
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Kaspider

I liked it but I think the writing could be better. Also the back and forth cutting between slow emotional pace (Rey's storyline) and fast action was a bit too much. Throughout the movie it was the same. In the middle, it was slow but the ending was good.

I kind of think Rey's character took a step backward and the Luke stole the show. I don't know. I haven't seen any Star Wars movies before.
I don't see the future. I don't worry about the past. Now's all I have.


wander

QuoteHe literally says that what the viewer wants doesn't matter... except it really, really does when you spend years hyping a movie and getting them to see it under a certain set of assumptions. Like that movie will have more connections to the first movie in the series than simply having the same characters. I didn't like the Force Awakens but simply casting it all aside to be "different" is slipshod piss poor edgelord writing

If Disney doesn't care about myself as a fan and wants to subvert what the audience, their paying audience had built up and wanted closure on with shaggy dog stories, if they really don't care for the core fandom that bad and they're pushing their fun little regime and just want a film each year for the money, I hereby stop giving them my money.

I'll spend it on a franchise and company that cares about their fans and doesn't troll them.

gaggedLouise

Learnt a new word today: shaggy-dog story. :D

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

wander


Zelta Runa

If I may chime in with my two cents: I feel like a lot of the problems with The Last Jedi stem from the incomprehensible decision to have it immediately pick up where The Force Awakens left off. Star Wars has never done that, and with good reason: putting some space in between the films allows room for other stories to be told (novels, tie-in games, fanfiction, etcetera), plus it lets filmmakers skip over all the boring in-between stuff -- hence why we got stuck watching Leia and Poe ride a space bus for two hours.
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RubySlippers

I agree if they had say five years between the movies, Rey training off screen, the resistance losing battle after battle and winning a bit, characters maturing this could explain Rey being so bad ass and other characters being different. However in the Empire Strikes Back how long was Luke working with Yoda it didn't seem all that long a month maybe two? Just saying maybe the Force is bouncing back like the old days and more force users will rise, like its in the valley now and climbing up the mountain for a period of time until there is another dip someday?

wander

There was in the timeline supposed to be a six month gap between Empire and Jedi, of which Luke may or may not have spent some of that with Yoda.

HannibalBarca

Without any obvious 'two weeks later' kind of cues in Empire, it's foggy as to how long Luke was with Yoda training.  Considering the Milennium Falcon couldn't jump to hyperspace, the journey from the asteroid field in the Hoth system to Cloud City is speculated to have taken anywhere from days to months.  And knowing how Vader pretty much toyed with Luke in their duel, we can safely say whatever Yoda taught him as far as fighting wasn't anywhere near enough to be even at an average Jedi level of expertise.  Luke pretty much fought on instinct backed up by his natural force ability.

My question comes in like this: how much combat training or practical fighting experience did Luke have growing up?  It seems implied that Rey spent a lot of time defending herself on Jakku, being alone, while Luke grew up with a family and probably didn't spend a lot of time fighting off Tusken Raiders with melee combat skills.
“Those who lack drama in their
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"It is only when we place hurdles too high to jump
before our characters, that they learn how to fly."  --  Me
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