Art or Porn

Started by Cythieus, September 21, 2009, 07:47:21 AM

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Cythieus

There has been nudity in art for a very long time, yet more recently nudity has become a taboo in art and sometimes isn't allowed to be seen by children because of the supposed sexual undertones that nudity caries to some.

My question is: What constitutes art and porn? What separates the two when the line is so blurred by what art means and when porn can be such a broad thing too?

The Overlord


That’s why it continues to be such a furious debate, because the line between them is often very fine and indistinct.

Offhand I’d be tempted to say that art tends to be more tasteful than porn, but that’s not really the definition, as I’ve seen very good examples of tasteful and artistic porn.


I have to say the whole thing annoys the hell out of me; we have to fight this conservative racket to knock any nudity out of art. I even got flack for it once at school, for IMPLIED nudity (the picture frame cut off about the shoulders on a female subject and did not even show breast, much less nipple, the fact that it was brought up at all proves my instructor was an idiot.


I tend to think if the work of art, photography, etc. is made for the clear and obvious purpose of arousal, then it’s likely porn, but even that isn’t a perfect definition.

September

http://www.ratepornorart.com/

It shows you a nude and you choose whether it's art or porn in your opinion.  Once you've rated it you get to see what everybody else thought.
Some of my ons.

Hunter

I've always thought that as a general rule if it wasn't suggestive and/or nudes then it really doesn't qualify as porn....

And not all nudes are porn either.

September

Having thought about it I think I'd say that porn is a type of art.
Some of my ons.

Trieste

As far as I'm concerned, art vs. porn is like determining between classical vs. thrash music; they are both the same medium, but they clearly are going to appeal to varying tastes.

An 'artistic' nude is going to be a study in the body, with nakedness being only a secondary characteristic. Porn is going to be about the nakedness, about the eroticism. Can they overlap? Of course - and they often do. That's pretty much the root of the problems with Miller v. California and the Red Rose saga.

Red Rose is one of the scarier cases pertinent to Elliquiy. It gives me chills to think of Vek having to go through that.

Edit: It took me three fucking tries to post that. >:E

The Overlord

Quote from: September on September 21, 2009, 05:10:35 PM
http://www.ratepornorart.com/

It shows you a nude and you choose whether it's art or porn in your opinion.  Once you've rated it you get to see what everybody else thought.


Broken page.

September

Some of my ons.

The Overlord


Ah NM, the pics are Flickr linked, and not all load from the onset. Page refresh is getting them to show.



For the record, I rated not a one of them as porn. Many were just artistically beautiful. Some were borderline suggestive, IMHO, if a couple of them had showed actual penetration I might have clickied porn.

Hunter


Cythieus

Some things can be both too, I mean it doesn't have to be one or the other. If its simply what's mean to turn someone on, what if artistic turns you on?

Will

I think of artistic photography as having some sort of play on light or color, or positions that highlight the shape of the body.  Something to interest the artistic eye, not flood the genitals with blood.  And yeah, I totally agree that art and porn can overlap, and I actually wish it did more often. XD
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

The Overlord

Quote from: Will1984 on September 21, 2009, 10:17:14 PM
I think of artistic photography as having some sort of play on light or color, or positions that highlight the shape of the body. 


There's actually a lot of ways to produce artistic photography. It's different than charcoals, ink wash, digital, oils, acrylics, gouache, and even 3D, all of which I have done, but at the end of the day it's just another brush. You have to learn its limits and rules, and then you take off with it...

ShrowdedPoet

. . .Most of that I thought was art.  But I really think that porn is just a different type of art.
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
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Brandon

Most of that I thought was art. I only consider it Porn when I see actual sex happening. Penetration of any kind is porn IMO. Kissing, fondling, holding a person and/or staring into their eyes, two people naked, and similar things are more art IMO.
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

The Overlord


All depends on the content. If it’s some trashy little Britney Spears type with enough face and naval piercings to set off metal detectors 100 feet away being banged by some tattooed little gangster bitch (which a lot of common web content has degenerated to) that’s not porn, it’s just carnies and white trash photography….absolutely no class.

Show me something inventive and I’ll pay attention.

Trieste

... and then there are those of us who feel that tattoos and piercings are just another form of art, with the range of taste and trash that art entails. :)

ShrowdedPoet

Yeah.  Tats and piercings are beautiful and hot!  *follows Tri*
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Brandon

Gonna have to agree that tatoos and piercings themselves are a form of art. Bodily art, but art all the same.
Brandon: What makes him tick? - My on's and off's - My open games thread - My Away Thread
Limits: I do not, under any circumstances play out scenes involving M/M, non-con, or toilet play

The Overlord

Quote from: Trieste on September 22, 2009, 12:25:12 AM
... and then there are those of us who feel that tattoos and piercings are just another form of art, with the range of taste and trash that art entails. :)

Yes and no...somehow in a few short years we went from underground to universal with this form of art. Everything in moderation, expect there is no moderation with tattoos and piercings now.

For me it’s like the rise of alternative rock in the 90’s; it was supposed to be the alternative to what the radio was playing, and at some point it was everywhere and lost its edge and appeal. That’s where I sit with this topic.


This is not the 21st Century I was expecting; that society would end up looking like a band of carnies, crackers, and circus freaks. I’d rather we be at war with killer robots or an omnipresent government, like the books predicted…

ShrowdedPoet

I have tats and piercings. Does this make me a carny or circus freak?
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Valerian

Let's not wander too far from the original post -- and let's also refrain from sweeping generalizations on any subject, please.
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

ShrowdedPoet

I think that the word art is extremely general and covers a huge number of mediums.
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


The Overlord

Quote from: ShrowdedPoet on September 22, 2009, 08:14:07 AM
I have tats and piercings. Does this make me a carny or circus freak?

You tell me. Once again, I'm talking about those who carried it way too far, and they're all around us.


You know who you are.

Valerian

The original post gives the impression of wanting to focus on nudity in art, though perhaps the poster didn't mean to be quite so specific.

In any case, I don't think anyone's arguing that such body modification is pornographic, per se; so any discussion of whether piercings and/or tattoos are tasteful or not should go in a different thread.

*ahem*
"To live honorably, to harm no one, to give to each his due."
~ Ulpian, c. 530 CE

ShrowdedPoet

I find the human body to be interesting and even beautiful.  Taking close ups of certain parts of the body and grey scaling them makes for some really interesting impressions.  Straight up nudes are very beautiful also.  I find it disturbing that people seem to be disgusted by the human form in it's purest. 
Kiss the hand that beats you.
Sexuality isn't a curse, it's a gift to embrace and explore!
Ons and Offs


Trieste

Looking at someone with "enough face and naval piercings to set off metal detectors 100 feet away" and then saying "there is no moderation with tattoos and piercings now" is like using GenCon as proof that cosplayers are mainstream now. It's a grossly exaggerated example that does not keep the overarching picture in perspective. Then again, I'm a fire-haired freak who "took the redhead schtick way too far" (something my brother's friend said when I first dyed my hair the completely unnatural red it is now).

It really, really does come down to taste, and the thing is that it's less worrying whether people distinguish someone with piercings and tattoos as a freak or not. No one has tried to shut down a gallery for showing pictures of facial piercings, and nobody has tried to prosecute an artist for putting up pictures of tattoos - unless they were of the human body.

In this way, the debate between "zomg freak or not" is not only off-topic (oops) but also irrelevant, because the art-or-porn debate has been raging for years as a legal battle, not just a battle over good taste.

Raven41174

Quote from: Trieste on September 22, 2009, 11:48:54 AM
Looking at someone with "enough face and naval piercings to set off metal detectors 100 feet away" and then saying "there is no moderation with tattoos and piercings now" is like using GenCon as proof that cosplayers are mainstream now. It's a grossly exaggerated example that does not keep the overarching picture in perspective. Then again, I'm a fire-haired freak who "took the redhead schtick way too far" (something my brother's friend said when I first dyed my hair the completely unnatural red it is now).

It really, really does come down to taste, and the thing is that it's less worrying whether people distinguish someone with piercings and tattoos as a freak or not. No one has tried to shut down a gallery for showing pictures of facial piercings, and nobody has tried to prosecute an artist for putting up pictures of tattoos - unless they were of the human body.

In this way, the debate between "zomg freak or not" is not only off-topic (oops) but also irrelevant, because the art-or-porn debate has been raging for years as a legal battle, not just a battle over good taste.


I have to agree, art or porn is always going to be in the eyes of the beholder
From ashes we were born, and to ashes we shall return

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Raven has requested indefinite access restriction.

The Overlord


Well, again it does indeed come down to personal tastes.


I find ‘mainstream’ porn to be the same as popular media in general- Overdone, watered down, lowbrow and largely unimaginative.


That may be only my opinion here, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Nico

#29
Well, I'd say porn is a form of expression, and therefore a form of art. Art itself is debatable and generally a point of view, of course. What one person perceives as art, isn't art for another.
So, yes, for me, porn -is- definitely a form of art.

Inkidu

I believe it lies in the intention. I don't believe Nude Descending a staircase or Michelangelo's David were intended to be sold so someone could masturbate to them, as where as most porn is for the opposite reason. 
If you're searching the lines for a point, well you've probably missed it; there was never anything there in the first place.

kylie

As far as social trends... 
Based on testing reactions to a set of stock images, Beth Eck (cite at end) has suggested how nudity is often interpreted socially in the US:


1) Artistic
     Most typically: Images that can be read as "old" (such as black and whites) or bodies that can be read as not not fitting contemporary ideals of beautific shape.

     People also tend to imagine, when asked in the abstract, that paintings and sculptures are more likely to be art than porn.

2) Pornographic
    First of all, "not art!"  People think they "know art when they see it" and don't socially feel much need to justify it.  Yet, Eck found that people tend to be less clear on how they know art, as opposed to porn.  The "marks" of porn are popularly assumed to be more obvious. 

     Porn is explained as "provocative" poses of nude bodies.  However, what is "provocative" has changed historically:  In her own time, the Mona Lisa was often thought to be staring out a challenge or invitation to so many men who passed her frame.  In more contemporary measures, often female orifices are focused on by the camera/perspective. 

3) Informational
     E.g. the "cultural" side of National Geographic.  Basically if the people and setting "looks foreign," it's okay.  With the exception that there is a public debate about whether even here, young boys might acceptably be shown in the nude.  It's more accepted to depict a mother and child with nudity to convey as a nurturing if emotionally distant relationship (high infant mortality in developing countries). 

     Also, nudity in medical texts.  Surrounded by appropriate jargon and perhaps, with signs of an operation underway.

4) Commodity-marketing
(advertising)... Eck says this category is culturally "under construction."

     A certain glossiness, telltale coloration and camera "tricks" are often cited in deciding that an image is being "sold" hard enough to fall into this category.  Younger generations are more likely than their elders to allow that some nudes are "simply" marketing tools.

Eck notes that some images, such as Demi Moore pregnant or nude pieces involved in debate about funding for the National Endowment for the Arts (particularly those that managed to go on display outside the museums) actually fall easily into multiple categories.  In those cases, people usually go to great lengths "explaining" how they see certain parts as more important such that they can place the work as one of these four.

Eck, Beth A. 2001. "Nudity and Framing: Classifying Art, Pornography, Information and Ambiguity." Sociological Forum 16(4): 603-632
     
     

germwaster

Art can be Pornography.  Pornography can be Art.

If the intention is to arouse, it is, by definition, pornography.

Naked body parts or explicit acts are definitely not required to be defined as pornography.

Chea

Pornography is art, plus there are different kinds of porn softcore and hardcore for instance.

Will

While I agree that the two can easily overlap, I hesitate to say that all porn is art. >.>
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Phoenix

I don't know, but I do know that I have a lot more issue with deciding what's art and what's gore... and I'd rather my daughter see porn over gore and violence any day.

The line between porn and art is really a question of social mores, I think. Right now, supposedly (don't ask me for statistics, please, I can't be bothered) there is currently a rising trend towards fundamentalism (religion) again. This could explain the swing towards puritanical views of what's art and what's porn.

Moonhare

I would have to say that porn is art, in its own context. There has been what we might consider porn carved into temples, painted onto silks, and displayed openly in many societies far into history. The kama sutra, which has been around for centuries, is explicit in its depiction of sex acts. Yet, I doubt any of us would call it porn in today's standards.

Is it the medium that changes our perspective? That the porn we see is of real people in the act through photography and not just representations of it through ink, pencil, stone, clay, or play on light?

Will

So, even the most grimy and nasty of porn, filmed in questionable motels with drug-addled actors/actresses, would still be art?
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Moonhare

I hate to say it, as it is not my personal taste for such a thing, but yes. There are surely some that would find it tasteful as it would represent them themselves. Art does represent life, so surely the ones that enjoy the more amateurish versions would still find it art. Truthfully, being out of your head with alcohol or drugs happens in real life without cameras rolling. Whether there was consent for the video in that case is more a question to me than its content. (I seem to remember a few films that showed both drug use and sexual acts, even if they were only acted out and no explicit detail was shown. It was still perceived as the act taking place in the story, yet these are not porn, they have an R film rating.)

Would I want to see something like that in a museum? No. But it has its place. I would prefer a play on skin with cloth and light, not the more explicit versions, but that is my taste, not to everyone else. I would also enjoy sculpture, ink, or any other medium, but again not the explicit even in something like the kamasutra, shown in a museum. Not that I think it shouldn't be shown, but that it would be up to the individual to decide if they want to determine that for themselves.

Again the question: Would you say the same thing if the same scene was inked or painted instead of photographed? Would it be art then, or still none art porn?

Will

It comes down to intent for me.  If it's meant to get someone aroused and make a profit, then it's porn.  If it's made to explore some sort of interesting visual or emotional aspect, then it's art.

Many films do indeed include sex and drugs, implied or otherwise.  Like I said, purpose is what defines it for me, not content.  Whether or not it has an adult rating, it can still be porn, as long as its purpose is to make someone aroused and to turn a profit.  If the sex and drugs are used to explore something deeper, such as the development of a character, then I would consider it art.  Of course, as I said before, it can be both.
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Leala Magnus

Art is something that doesn't express sexual desire. I have drawn nude people in my real life drawing class, and in all the drawings I have seen in my class I do not find them pornographic.

I think that the way things are suggested like a look the person is giving, body language, and what not can give away reasons to something being more of porn than art.

But everyone has their own description of art and something I may find porn realated someone else may think its more or an art.

Also its got to do with the way its displayed. If you have a piece of art displayed a certian way or put up somewhere it can give off the assumption that its porn

KyoZero

Some folks think the act of sex or apparent genitalia constitute porn. I think we try way too hard in this society to label things. Porn means nothing to me. It is still art IMO...can't imagine it'sthe most popular opinion but hey it is mine

-Kyo

Cold Heritage

I don't think it's terribly meaningful to make the distinction anymore, given what passes for art.
Thank you, fellow Elliquiyan, and have a wonderful day.

Rhapsody

Quote from: September on September 21, 2009, 05:10:35 PM
http://www.ratepornorart.com/

It shows you a nude and you choose whether it's art or porn in your opinion.  Once you've rated it you get to see what everybody else thought.

I'm doing this as honestly as I can, and I've rated a couple dozen images by now.  And I believe that what one person may find art, another is going to find porn.  Conversely, what one person finds porn, another person will find art.  It's a very subjective line to debate, imo.

In my case, "porn" for me is dictated by the context of the picture.  A naked model spread-eagled against the breathtaking beauty of nature, with bright colors and clarity?  Art.  Angles of the human body as the models bend and twist and pose?  Art.  A woman's naked form being bound with ropes?  Porn.  Two girls tangling tongues?  Porn.  Dramatic shadows that concurrently highlight and conceal portions of the body?  Art.   A body being displayed with seemingly no meaning other than to display the body?  Porn.

But that's just me.  The beauty of it is, someone else can have an entirely different opinion about the exact same images.
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Will

I pretty much agree on all of that, Rhapsody.  I would take it a little further myself though, and say that some could be both.  Say, if the girl bound in ropes was cast in dramatic shadows?  It could be meant specifically to arouse (which I consider porn) and also to be visually interesting (which I consider art).

So, basically, just blurring the line a little further. *laughs*
If you can heal the symptoms, but not affect the cause
It's like trying to heal a gunshot wound with gauze

One day, I will find the right words, and they will be simple.
- Jack Kerouac

Dizzi

well, I noticed on the site that there was like, ONE image that was 100% art and two images that were 98% porn.  Those two images were the only images with an erect penis in it I saw.  Conclusion?  Breasts/vagina means that there is a fine line between it in the publics eye.  If there is an erect penis in it, it is almsot instantly labelled porn.

mannik

Well, one of my favorite artists (Alex Grey) has painted a number of pieces all about human sexuality and attraction, such as....
(Copulation)
http://media.photobucket.com/image/alex%20grey/danamontano/postcard32.jpg

and
(kissing)
http://peekbrain.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/alex-grey-kissing.png?w=468&h=630

Oddly enough I couldn't find the two pictures I was really hoping to find, which was basically a large, erect phallus and a vagina.

You'd think that sort of stuff would be easy to find on the internet, but noooo.


Talia

Wow, I had never heard of him. What you have linked, does look interesting. I will have to hunt around for more.
He looks at me and my heart starts skipping beats, my face starts to glow and my eyes start to twinkle.
Imagine what he would do to me if he smiled!

Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.

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mannik

Yeah, Alex Grey is awesome. His work is centered around what it is to be a human on the spiritual journy of life and our constant search for higher awareness.

Sex and love are important steps along that journy. It is vital to understanding the dual nature of existance, of the ebb and flow of energies, and their polarities...opposites attracting, moving and flowing toward eachother with a primal longing to merge together as one. It is how we tap into into the primal energies of nature, and manafest the powers of creation.

(So in a way, porn is art as it is an expression of one of our deepest and basic levels of concious awareness.)

Talia

Thanks for all the great info. If you have anymore links or what not, please feel free to let me know. I would appreciate it.
He looks at me and my heart starts skipping beats, my face starts to glow and my eyes start to twinkle.
Imagine what he would do to me if he smiled!

Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.

On's & Off's
The Oath of Drake for Group RP's
A&A

cere

Well, for my twopenneth...

Porn and art appeal to different senses, it would seem to me at least.  Art is about feeling but not about stimulating sexual urges.  I do confess to thinking, however, that some of the Saturn Devouring Venus type images show a skill level in their creation but a deviant mindset...that tends to lean towards porn in my book.

Having said that I appreciate both. 

:-)



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Morven

For me, the two are not two ends of a continuum, but completely different things.  Something can be both art and porn; it can be neither; or it can be one and not the other.  Different axes with little relation.
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Kotah

I would think all the original pictures to be art, all the duplicates to be a craft.

Therefore, kinnda like morven said, they are all both to me.
Finally in a rage we scream at the top of our lungs into this lonely night, begging and pleading they stop sucking up dry.There as guilty as sin, still as they always do when faced with an angry mob: they wipe the blood from their mouths and calm us down with their words of milk and honey. So the play begins, we the once angry mob are now pacified and sit quietly entertained. But the curtain exists far from now becasue their lies have been spoken. My dear, have you forgotten what comes next? This is the part where we change the world.

KyoZero

I tried the ratepornorart.com

pretty much all looked like art to me

-Kyo

Nabeshin

I think it's really a game of black and white semantics in a universe of grey area, and it all comes down to personal definitions and the social mores of your culture. Art and porn are subjective words that could be used to describe damn near anything.

The bigger questions to me are, to what extent do we let an individual or group's definition of what is offensive and what is artistic determine how accessible the content is to the rest of their society? Do we leave it open, have no limits to what is publicly and openly available and force parents and the morally squeamish to self sensor? Or are there solid boundaries that we should all agree a person should have to be old enough and actively seek out to be exposed to?

Also, Bill Hicks had a fun bit about this: Pornography - Bill Hicks

Nabeshin

Oh wow, I didn't expect that. Sorry folks, I didn't intend to stick that big window there...

Kudos to whoever programmed the forum to automatically embed youtube links, though. I've never seen that happen before.

BCdan

It depends on art style.  The current cutting edge modern art may share some qualities with porn. 

I am willing to bet that if you made a Baroque piece with a hardcore sex scene, people would call it art.  The cutting edge always gets judged a bit harder and often times this leads to referring to something as pornographic as a means of insulting the work.


~I enjoy random PM's~

Farmboy

Porn elicits sex. Art may express desire, but porn creates it. Porn is an end in itself, but art seeks something beyond itself. So we are talking about the artists' intent. If I only want to turn you on, or turn myself on with what I am writing, it's porn. If I intend to explore the multitude of human experiences, clearly I would not exclude sex, but that would only be a part of what I was doing. Porn seeks to create a marketable product out of sex. A painting that has nudity is not considered porn if it is one-of-a-kind because it can only have one buyer. But if your intention is to create something that someone would take off to a secret place so he can masturbate, then it's not art. Which isn't to say it becomes porn when someone does that. Boris may draw an awesome Deeja Thoris, but even if someone takes his book into the bathroom, it isn't porn because he did it as a book cover, and because nobody wears clothing in Barsoom.

Lucinda

I totally agree with Aislin. I think people are too hung up on the content without considering the intent. Of course the problem being that the intent isn't always obvious. A painting of a haywain is obviously indended to be art. A naked girl being graphically taken by two men is almost certainly intended to be porn. If you take that as the black and white then its just a question of how grey things get in the mind of the viewer after that. Thats possibly a touch simplistic because I'd have to put porn into a subset of art too, like many other folks have said. It might be extreme but I think even the most hard core film can be termed art on some level. Its no less valid than half a cow or an unmade bed. So maybe its true to say that there is no black, just very dark grey.
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Whoami

It's really one of those irregular verbs, such as "I'm clear thinking, you're of strong opinions,  he's bigoted"; "I like art, you like erotica, he likes porn"!
Ultimately it's in the eye of the beholder.

Talia



I believe all art is conceptual regardless of content. It is how the eye and mind perceives the work. I have watched some porn that really didn't excite me at all. Well the dialogue didn't help either, but I have seen some pictures with vague nudity that did. It is what evokes the mind that evokes the body to respond. Each persons eye will always perceive something different when seeing or watching any form of art or porn.

He looks at me and my heart starts skipping beats, my face starts to glow and my eyes start to twinkle.
Imagine what he would do to me if he smiled!

Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.

On's & Off's
The Oath of Drake for Group RP's
A&A