CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists

[Pumpkin Seeds]

To me it's just humorous.  I could be standing on a street corner with a sign saying the most hate filled speech I can come up with, not allowed to be touched.  I wear a mini-skirt and a man gets to stick a part of his anatomy in me.

Go figure.

[Valthazar]

I agree with Silk on this one, and it's similar to the post I had made.  This isn't about attributing blame to any victim, but in simply minimizing the risk of bad things occurring.

[Trieste]

To me it's just humorous.  I could be standing on a street corner with a sign saying the most hate filled speech I can come up with, not allowed to be touched.  I wear a mini-skirt and a man gets to stick a part of his anatomy in me.

Go figure.

Or if you do something wrong, people get to say they hope he sticks his anatomy in you. Can't forget about that. :P

[Shjade]

Or if you do something wrong, people get to say they hope he sticks his anatomy in you. Can't forget about that. :P

Off topic a bit, but that's one of those things that always baffles me. Random Youtube comments, for instance: some video, doesn't matter what; someone comments negatively on said video; someone else replies to said comment with "Get raped." or "Die in a fire." or whatever. I just...what? Really? It's...I don't understand the source of these extreme responses to minor things. I don't get it.

[Silk]

To me it's just humorous.  I could be standing on a street corner with a sign saying the most hate filled speech I can come up with, not allowed to be touched.  I wear a mini-skirt and a man gets to stick a part of his anatomy in me.

Go figure.

Nope but if you are actively going around provoking a fight with people (ala westboro baptist church for example) you will get a lot of people saying you deserve to get the snot kicked out of you, and the sheer fact you was provoking the fight can alter the jail term of the person assaulting, even to a point of them just having to take compulsory anger management sessions and not carry a jail term. It's also considered bad form to go around teasing provoking and angering people, and you don't get the luxury of "Nah I just wanna walk away and not fight you" when the person you've been provoking eventually snaps and does the expected emotional and psychological response. If anything it will piss them off even more. Rape is not the only crime which the situation and actions of the victim prior can have an effect. Not saying it's an excuse at the best of times, but its an reality and as ValthazarElite it's just a matter of not making yourself out to be a target.

[gaggedLouise]

Or if you do something wrong, people get to say they hope he sticks his anatomy in you. Can't forget about that. :P

Or "this skanky chick/whore/dyke is so dirty that no one would even want to rape her". I used to see that kind posted about Amy Winehouse all the time, when she was still alive. People have even told me that Richey James of the Manic Street Preachers got some threats of that same kind; he looks absolutely gorgeously feminine in some glam crossdressed pictures taken in the years before he disappeared, or likely killed himself. *sigh* Both Winehouse and James polarized people of course, something about them really seemed to bring some folks out of their comfort zone and raise the most mean-spirited stuff.

[Chris Brady]

Off topic a bit, but that's one of those things that always baffles me. Random Youtube comments, for instance: some video, doesn't matter what; someone comments negatively on said video; someone else replies to said comment with "Get raped." or "Die in a fire." or whatever. I just...what? Really? It's...I don't understand the source of these extreme responses to minor things. I don't get it.

That's, sadly, all there is to it.

[gaggedLouise]

Sometimes that's sadly all too true, Chris. People can act like somplete fucktards online occasionally because of the trigger that they are both untraceable back to real-life - - or at least there is no effective way to hold them to what they said, IRL - and feeling that "wow, I get to be heard by absolutely everybody: awesome!"

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The issue remains that someone who assaults another person, even if provoked verbally, is still responsible and prosecuted for assault.  Just as someone that steals a purse just sitting in a grocery basket is still prosecuted for theft.  Yet pair of boys drag an unconscious child from one party to the next, repeatedly raping her and distributing photographs of a minor and people immediately focus on her behavior.  I can understand a stern wag of the finger about underage drinking or drinking to the point of losing consciousness, but arguing that any part of the responsibility here lies with the victim is simply preposterous.  The same for any other situation of rape.  Just as someone is expected to resist the urge to hit another individual and to not simply take items that do not belong to them, so should people be expected to not rape someone.  Problem is the same standard is not given. 

Anyone would consider a statement ridiculous that someone wanted to be murdered because they were walking alone at night in a certain area.  Just as people would scoff at anyone saying someone wanted to be robbed for wearing tight pants that showed their wallet or carrying an expensive purse.  Still people just say, “that’s reality” when the camera turns toward rape.  Theft, assault and murder are not treated as “reality” but as crimes to be stopped.  People understand that someone does not deserve to die for walking in the wrong neighborhood, be robbed for the clothes they wear, but still think place and clothing can justify rape.

As for protection, keep in mind that the vast majority of rape is acquaintance rape.  Often the rape was from a family member or significant other so that no matter where the woman traveled or the clothes she wore there was nothing to be done.  Marital rape was only recently even treated as a crime.  So really setting any sort of blame on that level or giving “warnings about certain behaviors” is lost on the majority of rape cases and victims.  The root of the problem lies in the culture, not in the behavior of the victim.

[Healergirl]

 

No but being assaulted by someone you was actively provoking could've been a crime avoided if you wasn't provoking. You cannot expect anyone else to look after your safety you should be looking after your own. And it can easily be classed as a fight instead of a assault if you get found out that you was actively provoking the situation.

Not it cannot in this case.  A fight is mutual combat.  You seem to be arguing that wearing revealing clothing is functionally equivalent to a punch in the gut - or at least a slap in the face.  As to the person primarily responsible for looking after yourself being yuou, of course i agree.  but sometimes no matter what yo do, how sensibly you act, you may find yourself on the bulls-eye.

I would go so far as to draw active parallels.

When someone is mugged, they are not asked by the cops why they were wearing pants that show the outline of their wallet. They're not asked, "Well are you sure they knew you didn't want to just give them your money? Did you clearly tell them you didn't want to give them money? How many times did you say that?". And people don't make comments about, "You know he agreed to give them all his money then regretted it later and called it a mugging."

Or insert your own sterotype as you like. Could be a fun party game.

I so comletely agree with ever letter and keystroke of this.



Valthazrelite,

Sometimes you end up on the bulls-eye no matter how careful you are.

[Silk]

The same goes with any crime, why does rape deserve special consideration over murder assault or kidnapping and alike, everyone is always at risk of any crime, not even men are safe from potential rape, but the amount of consideration it gets is minimal.

Also I'm talking more than just clothing, I'm talking about active flirting, grinding, sexual conduct outright, going to a nightclub grinding against some guy on the dance floor, then making out with him for half an hour touching him up, then deciding they had enough and just leave said guy in the lurch is going to inact a emotional response from the guy, yes stopping midway is something you can do, but it's not exactly going to go down well and it shouldn't be treated as if it would. There's being hit by a car, then there's being hit by a car while playing chicken in the road.

[Trieste]

The same goes with any crime, why does rape deserve special consideration over murder assault or kidnapping and alike, everyone is always at risk of any crime, not even men are safe from potential rape, but the amount of consideration it gets is minimal.

Also I'm talking more than just clothing, I'm talking about active flirting, grinding, sexual conduct outright, going to a nightclub grinding against some guy on the dance floor, then making out with him for half an hour touching him up, then deciding they had enough and just leave said guy in the lurch is going to inact a emotional response from the guy, yes stopping midway is something you can do, but it's not exactly going to go down well and it shouldn't be treated as if it would. There's being hit by a car, then there's being hit by a car while playing chicken in the road.

Okay.

Do you understand that the situation of which you speak surrounds such an infinitesimally small percentage of rapes that it's practically urban myth?

And.

Do you understand that what you are doing is precisely the kind of victim-blaming that contributes to what is referred to as 'rape culture'? Because statements like that are pretty much on the money as far as the examples we have been giving.

Edit for grammar.

[Healergirl]

Silk,

Because wearing clothing that shows a lot of skin is not a threat to the safety  of the attacker!

And the actions of the victim...  there is the question of Agency and Moral  Agency.  You give power to the victim, but not much to the attacker, it seems.  This is daft, to put it politely.

And the situation you describe, while real and not all that rare -cockteasing is a very real and regrettable bitchy behavior -  is not the norm  for events leading to  rape.  As Trieste implies, the vast majority of  men have enough self-control to restrain their rather justified anger.  They get pissed about it, of course.  But actually lashing out?  No they do not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_%28grammar%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_agency

[Silk]

I wouldn't call them infinately small if me and 12 of my friends who are not clubbers only one of us has been raped, while my other friends who go out clubbing most weekends, out of the 23 who do it, only 2 of them say they haven't been raped.

Also when was I blaming the victim, I was giving an example where someone is not doing themselves any favors and making themselves more of a target due to their own actions. When I was attacked and raped at home after coming home from work, to my friend who actively boasted to me how she plays men in the way I described, then comes to me and says our experiences with rape are the same, how am I meant to be able to take her seriously, It was horrible that we was attacked that much is obvious, but I find it more tragic that there are people like my friend who are actively goading the situation then act shocked when it happens to them as if it was like mine at home.

But do I blame society for it? No, I blame the rapist, do I blame men for it? No I blame the rapist, do I blame some kind of perceived rights without the responsibility entitlement complex that a lot of women seem to be formulating these days and realise that they are out of their depth, I kind of do. But it's still my rapists fault for my rape.

But want to know what I like to do? I like to minimize my chances of it happening so I don't have to go through it again, I did it before and I still got targeted sure, but who knows how many times I could've been raped if I was a Neon sign wearing drunkard who went out of my way to be as sexually appealing and vulnerable as possible, I'm sure I would've been raped more than just the once. So I would thank you for not trying to imply I'm some kind of advocate of "Rape culture" thank you. I'm just looking at the situation realistically that  people who make themselves more of a target are generally going to find themselves targeted more often than those who don't. It's just a fact of life but it's nobody elses fault but the rapist that a rape happens, that much is freaking obvious. But just brushing off the events and influences of it that lead upto it and not dealing with those as well is just retarded. The police and home security should be enough general protection for homes, it doesn't stop people forming neighbourhood watches to make doubly sure. Only the physically and/or mentally vulnerable are generally incapable of taking steps to protect themselves, which is why they have carers to do it for them.

[Healergirl]

Silk,

To put it briefly:  Data Selection bias.  you are sassuming that your personal experience is the norm.  Understandable, what we see/hear/feel has more impact than what we are told by statistical analysis.  but the data as reported does not bear out your position.

And clubbers getting raped?  I was a bartender at least part time for ten years.  Alcohol is a huge factor.  And not just on the part of the victim, the attackers are loaded as well, in my experience  - Data Selection Bias again.  Alcohol carries a double standard of course.  A drunken rapist can, with limited success, claim intoxication as a moral if not a legal defense.  This is not as effective as it once was, thank God.  but a victim can never claim drunkenness as even a limited moral defense.

But again the data as reported highlight the key role alcohol plays in rape.  A drunken attacker will see things in the victim's behavior that exist only in his own deluded mind.

[Caehlim]

A drunken rapist can, with limited success, claim intoxication as a moral if not a legal defense.  This is not as effective as it once was, thank God.

I've heard some people try to use intoxication as a moral defense before but it rings rather hollow to me. We know the effects of alcohol and when people choose to drink, they choose to accept responsibility for its results.

[Nadir]

If rape happens because a person reveals too much skin, how do you explain the women who wear burqas who get raped?

If rape happens because a person is too flirtatious, how do you explain the rape of a twelve year old?

If rape happens because you go to a strange house for a party, how do you explain someone being raped in their own home by someone they love?

There is no checklist that you can create that will protect you. There is nothing the victim did, or failed to do that deserves to be punished with rape.

[Caehlim]

Well put Dim Hon.

[Caeli]

I saw earlier that this NPR article about military rape had been linked.

This documentary, The Invisible War, is also mentioned and linked in the article, but I wanted to make mention of it again because I saw it when it screened locally, and found it to be an excellent, exceptionally executed documentary. Very hard to watch and listen to, but it's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, and I definitely do not regret the time I made for it. If you have an opportunity to attend a screening or watch it, I highly recommend it.

Edited for grammar.

[Caehlim]

I saw earlier that this NPR article about military rape had been linked.

Wow, that was a difficult article to read but very informative.  Thankyou for linking it again, I must have missed it the first time around.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

The problem is Silk, you are not looking at this situation realistically.  A woman’s actions very rarely lead up to a rape in terms of her drawing the gaze of her attacker.  Most rape is acquaintance rape which means the rapist selected a woman close to them with ease of access.  He did not pick the girl at a club who was grinding on him, did not pick the girl in class with the tight clothing or the one at the gym who makes jokes about her “wild Saturday nights.”  Most rapists pick the person that is known to them through dating, other friends, family and so on.  These women were selected for ease of access more than anything.  Stranger rape is the one always talked about because of the sensationalism, but rarely the one acted upon.  Even in this case the attackers were known to the girl.

A woman should be able to wear the clothing she wants and have fun without concerns of being raped.  This is a mentality of “if I’m a good girl then nobody will hurt me” and that mentality does not work.  This is not a realistic approach to rape prevention or even in minimizing risk.  You say that the rapist is to blame but the victim is the one needing to alter their behavior in order to decrease the chances of rape, in order to not encourage rape.  That is part of rape culture. 

People have an expectation of being able to walk down the street without being robbed, attacked, heckled and/or murdered.  Demanding anything less in regard to rape is supporting a rape culture.  The standard should be that a woman can dress, act and do as she wants without the threat of sexual violence.  Our expectation as a society should be that a woman who passes out on a couch will awaken with a few beer cans on top of her and a drawing on her face, not underwear pulled down and a surprise.

The best example I can use to illustrate the difference is of a LSU fan.  LSU lost to their rivals at a championship game, very badly I might add.  Fans of both teams were heckling each other and there was a great deal of rivalry and bitterness after the game.  One LSU fan out drinking fell asleep at a public place.  An Alabama fan too video of himself rubbing his genitals over the man’s face and doing a great many lewd things to the LSU fan.  A girl in Steubenville passed out after drinking too much and was dragged around from party to party by two men, humiliated on video and sexual assaulted over and over. 

Not one person seriously suggested the LSU fan wanted to have another man’s penis rubbed on his face because he got drunk and passed out in public.  There was no serious suggestion that the man who put his genitals on the man’s face was just doing what the LSU fan wanted or that the Alabama fan should not be punished because of an action taken by the LSU fan.  Yet in the case of the girl, she shouldn’t have been at the party, shouldn’t have been drunk and should’ve been more careful.  Horrible what those boys did to her, but if she hadn’t…

That’s support of rape culture.

[Valthazar]

Valthazrelite,

Sometimes you end up on the bulls-eye no matter how careful you are.

What do you mean by this?

What Silk and I are saying is NOT about blame or fault - it purely about reducing one's chances of getting attacked.  [See below]

A woman should be able to wear the clothing she wants and have fun without concerns of being raped.

Again, neither Silk nor myself are saying that doing anything can prevent getting raped, but merely make one safer.  Someone sitting in their house on the computer can get murdered - but does that mean that getting involved with drugs is not something we discourage?  No- because even though murder can take place in other contexts, getting involved with drugs still increases the likelihood of getting murdered.

Are you truly suggesting that a woman should be able to do anything she wants, and not be concerned about rape?  So if she wants to walk down a gang-infested neighborhood at 3am in the morning, you would advocate for that?  We are merely saying that women cannot have everything - they need to be careful.  If I have a daughter, I will tell her not to get blackout drunk - not because she can't, but because she it puts her in a vulnerable position.

I am not sure why everyone here thinks we are blaming the victim - this is purely about doing things to increase our safety, again, with no guarantees like anything in life.

[consortium11]

I think there's a certain balance to be struck... and one that the loudest on both sides often miss.

The starting point is clearly this. It is the rapists fault (I use "rapist" to cover all manner of sexual offences). It is the rapist who should be blamed... totally and utterly. It is never the victims fault that something happened to them. The simple fact is that if you remove rapists you have no rape. If you remove alcohol, remove mini-skirts, remove flirting, remove walking alone through dark alleys, remove virtually anything that pops up in misguided "avoiding rape advice" style comments but keep rapists, then there will still be rape. Every discussion or comment on rape should keep that at its heart and if anyone ever feels that their argument is dragging them away from that then they need to sit down and have a deep think about what they're saying.

On the "avoiding rape advice" comments in particular, the vast majority of them target at best an extreme subset of rapes. The "stranger danger" idea where there are people lurking in the shadows waiting for someone a little worse for wear with drink to wander by so they can leap out and rape them like a lion picking off a wounded gazelle is a tiny subset of rapes. The idea of men being so overcome by a woman in a revealing outfit that they have to rape her is offensive to both genders and again, incredibly rare. Even the more frequent "I've started so I'll finish" style assaults where the man has been so turned on by what came before or feels that as he has been given consent to do one semi-sexual act, be it dancing, kissing or even something heavier, and therefore has a right to do whatever he wants make up a minority of rapes. Far too often people try to view rape through the mindset of conventional sex and sexuality... as an extension of that, a crude and fundamental version; I'm attracted to that woman in a revealing outfit, therefore a rapist has the seem feelings, merely stronger and less impulse control. That's false. Rape isn't about sex or sexuality. It's about power, it's about dominance, its about cruelty and its about force. Moreover much the advice is simply wrong; the much maligned "don't dress like a slut" comments which sparked the slutwalks weren't simply offensive they were also incorrect; as far as I'm aware there's no statistical evidence that the type or sort of clothing a woman wears has any correlation to their chances of being raped or sexually assaulted.

There is a but however...

As part of combating rape culture (and I don't particularly like the term and how its used) I've seen all comments along the lines of "don't get drunk, don't wander home alone, don't go off with strangers" etc being bundled together and sold as part of continuing that culture. I can certainly understand the argument; those offering the "advice" are in essence issuing limitations and restrictions to the potential victims while saying nothing (or at worst handwaving) the actions of the perpetrator. They are providing easy tools for someone to blame the victim with and even if they weren't, they are targeting only the smallest area where a rape may occur. Even if they're advice was completely accurate and so by not doing any of the things they decry someone could make certain they were never raped on a night out the vast majority of rapes would still occur.

But, if we were to give the same advice but in the context of avoiding non-sexual assaults and thefts, would we decry it as victim blaming and part of an assault/theft culture? Is suggesting to someone not to leave their front door unlocked and window open or to leave valuables in clear display part of the theft culture? Is it bad advice? Is it advice we should not give? Is it advice that should lead to us criticising the advisor? Because after all, just as there would be no rape without rapists, there would also be no theft without thieves. What separates the two?

If someone asked me for safety advice for a night out I'd recommend many of the things that are seen as perpetrating the rape culture. I'd say don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing. I'd say don't wander the streets alone. I'd say be careful going off with strangers. I'd say all that without particularly worrying about rape or sexual assaults; I'd say it because I think it's solid advice to avoid all manner of sins. And none of those sins would exist without the sinners, but the sinners do exist. In a perfect world everyone could go out, get as drunk as they like, wander the streets alone through a "bad" part of town, meet up with some people they've never seen before and go off with them and the only issue the next day would be a sore head. But unfortunately life isn't like that.

Saying "to avoid rape don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing, don't go off with complete strangers, don't wander the streets alone etc etc" is insulting, wrong and dangerous.

Saying "to stay safer on a night out don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing, don't go off with complete strangers, don't wander the streets alone etc etc" seems to me to be solid advice and not the sort of thing that should be attacked.

I should stress here (and I hope I've made clear throughout) that none of the above point is me attacking or blaming or criticising the victims of such acts. It's aimed not at them but at those behind them who include all such comments as being part of the rape culture and that they should never be uttered. I refuse to accept that advising people not to drink to excess is bad advice in and of itself (and this comes from someone who does drink to excess far too often). I think we need to be careful in separating out things that are part of the rape culture (or whatever term we want to use) and things that are general good advice. Far too often I see them conflated.

[Healergirl]

Valthazar,

I mean simply that the decision to initiate a rape is not made by the victim.    that is the point about Agency I have been trying to make. As a potential victim I can minimize the odds that I will be targeted, but not eliminate them.  that's what I mean.

And frankly... I'm not sure that Silk was saying it is not the fault of the victim, silk seems to assign quite a bit of agency to the victim, not the attacker.  Silks position has moderated a bit, but there has been a noticeable change in tone from earlier postings in this thread.

And I don't want women to have everything, just a basic assumption that a woman wants to be raped no more than she want's to have per purse stolen would be a nice societal standard to live with.  And I don't think we ahave that.

[Valthazar]

the vast majority of them target at best an extreme subset of rapes.

And you are absolutely correct.  It is purely one way that women can reduce their risk by taking ownership of their actions, and reducing their risky behavior (excess drinking, etc.).  You are correct, this accounts for only a tiny subset of rapes - but any reduction of a risk is a good thing - and I don't think anyone here advocates for heavy drinking.

I can certainly understand the argument; those offering the "advice" are in essence issuing limitations and restrictions to the potential victims while saying nothing (or at worst handwaving) the actions of the perpetrator.

First and foremost, again, you are absolutely correct these cases only represent a tiny subset of rapes.  I am not sure why you describe the idea of avoiding partying behavior as being a limitation and restriction on women, as if there is some inherent "good" in participating in the partying lifestyle.  Binge drinking, grinding at parties, and drinking games are marketed as being 'fun times' but even today, I struggle to understand how this benefits anyone, except heralding a culture of sex and hooking up.  What truly is a limitation and restriction is when actions prevent people from providing or participating in a social good - such as preventing women from going to college, working a job, etc.

Saying "to avoid rape don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing, don't go off with complete strangers, don't wander the streets alone etc etc" is insulting, wrong and dangerous.

Saying "to stay safer on a night out don't get so drunk you don't know what you're doing, don't go off with complete strangers, don't wander the streets alone etc etc" seems to me to be solid advice and not the sort of thing that should be attacked.

This is all I'm trying to say.  Well said.