The 2022 U.S. Election

[Annaamarth]

Said stuff

Oh.  Oh, buddy, pyre, my dude.  Okay, lemme take it from the top.

This seems more appropriate in this thread, so I'll respond here.

Great start, solid decision making here - you're keeping topical things in topical places, which is respectful.  I can dig it!

Which is why you just spouted a bunch of anti-republican crap, when it's painfully obvious to everybody outside of America that the issue isn't with the Republicans, OR the Democrats, but rather the political system in general. It's so utterly flawed and corrupt that it beggars belief. Putting aside the die hard trump muppets for a moment? How do you think he got into power in the first place? You can't tell me that 50% of americans actually buy his crap?

Ah. "The political system in general" didn't do 06Jan and isn't pushing a system that would allow state legislatures to just ... ignore votes.  No, that doesn't really hold water my dude.  Yeah, the Democratic party is kind of a turdbasket - you get that with coalition parties, which it very much is - but really only one party is pushing election denialism without evidence.

I think you kinda lost the plot here.  That said, as far as Trump getting elected ...

I refuse to believe your average american is that dumb. He got into power because people hate the political class. It was a statement against a system that lets only a select few rule, where laws are largely determined by what the lobbyists are willing to pay to push through.

Ah.  You're kinda answering your own question though, but the problem is that the GOP enabled that political class.  I mean ... which Supreme Court justices supported Citizen's United?  Which didn't?  That kinda let the issue go into overdrive.

But I don't think that outrage against the "political class" is quite right.  If that were the case, we wouldn't still see frogger Senator McConnell still in place, unless you think "political class" means something other than I think it does - in which case, maybe you should define it?

See, a lot of Trump's support also came from people who are worried about fake culture war bullshit - cancel culture and "woke leftism", as though that's really a thing.  It's a lot of people falling for propaganda, because it's easy to make people feel afraid.

There's glaring issues on both sides of the political divide, and what you see is largely what you're willing to see. The left thinks the right is totally corrupt, the right thinks the left is nothing but bad eggs, and meanwhile the corrupt continue to foster and reap the benefits of that division. It's not a uniquely american problem, but it seems far more obvious/entrenched in america compared to most other western nations.

Well, here there aren't really any lies - maybe some exaggeration and hyperbole, but no lies.  Well, calling the Democratic party "the left" is disingenuous - liberalism and leftism are not the same and equating them is false, but that's neither here nor there.

Of course, I do think the right is mostly corrupt, with a few decent examples - Liz Cheney as a standout, before her ouster, and anyone else who has consistently spoken out against MAGA bullshit.  Unfortunately, the numbers aren't big there.  Instead, you get Space Laser Lady acting like a shot-caller.  Neat.

On the left we have ... what?  A president's kid, who holds no position in the government?  SecState Clinton?  Got any other big examples of bad eggs, because I'm tired of hearing about Hunter Biden's laptop and Hilary's emails.  Those have been investigated and looked into, and any steps that needed to be taken were, in fact, taken.  Compare and contrast Trump holding onto TS/SCI documents and not cooperating with the investigation.  When I hear the GOP call that a witchhunt, it kinda undermines their credibility.

I don't know how to fix it at this point, but I worry about where america is headed. It's big enough and powerful enough that it affects everyone, american or not.

No real comments here.  This is worth worrying about - although maybe for reasons other than the ones you have.

You said "We need to do better than to make, believe, and spread statements like yours."

Yeah, that was said.  (Also, I agree - misleading bullshit should be called out when put out.  Note, he didn't say you were lying or attempting to deceive, as far as I noted)

But you did pretty much the exact same thing as Persephone(admittedly because you were invited to, which i'm not sure if that makes it better, or worse). So there was corruption within the BLM movement. So there is corruption within the republican party. A few bad eggs within the BLM movement doesnt make what it represents any less meaningful. And a few bad eggs within the republicans doesn't make all conservative views evil either.

This is ... almost true, but something of a false equivalency.

I don't think anybody is decrying all conservative views, and I don't think anybody is looking to BLM - the movement or the legal entity which engaged in fraudulent activity for governance.  Nevertheless, let's look at a cross section of conservative movements:

06Jan - Well, we can blame that on MAGA, right?

Election denialism - That's ... a little harder to blame on MAGA, considering how much the GOP has refused to actually back off the topic.

Citizen's united - That was a bunch of conservative justices.  Kennedy, Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts.  These are kinda the conservative mainstream, my man.

Abortion ban without exceptions - Yeah, this ain't just MAGA my dude.

Supply-side (Trickle down) economics - hysterical laughing

And before you cry foul, and claim that you were only giving isolated examples or somesuch... It's pretty obvious to anybody who has interacted with you that you have pretty strongly Democratic values, and jumped on the opportunity to bag on the Republicans, tarring the entire conservative movement with the corrupt actions of a few...

Well, this is presumptive.  If anyone were going to cry foul I doubt it would be over Veks views - he has been very up-front about them, and pretty energetic about provide specific examples - like the GOP trying to pass legislation that would take this site down.  I will cry foul with "tarring the entire conservative movement with the corrupt actions of a few" - it's been the few GOP who haven't sandbagged the economy and haven't been part of cruel legislation.  I lean libertarian by preference, and to me?  The GOP and their insistence on getting in the way of local matters and involving themselves in my personal choice doesn't feel like freedom - it feels like rulership.  But that's my bias.

I don't much like the MAGA idiots. But I don't have much love for woke identity politics either. I do think people should be able to believe and spread whatever crap they like though. I have enough faith in humanity that the shit will eventually trickle to the bottom and sort itself out.

I find your faith in humanity cute, but naive.  I have faith in God - and I have faith that Man has the free will to fuck it all up.

On the whole "woke" topic, I'll go ahead and point out that "fixing the birth lottery" is way easier to do if you can look at the aftermath of the way disadvantaged groups - ethnic, religious, what-the-fuck-ever - have been boned in the past.  From an engineering perspective, diagnosis is damned hard if you aren't allowed to look at all the data - and whitewashing our history, as anti-wokeism tends to encourage, is a great way to never fix anything.  Wait, no, in engineering terms teaching shit based on bad data is how you get normalized deviation.  Way less kinky than it might sound.

You can believe whatever you like. But please trust other people enough to form their own opinions, and sort the bullshit from the fact. Not everyone will agree with you. But when they don't, argue with them. Try to help them see your side, present your opinions and evidence. Don't tell them they need to shut up because you don't want to hear it.

But when they don't, argue with them.

Buddy, that's not how the marketplace of ideas works.  Or free speech.  Particularly not in an environment where discussion is supposed to happen.

Now, what you did differently than Persephone was you brought up the discussion in a thread that was relevant, rather than side-tracking the conversation in an unrelated thread.  Unironic kudos for that - I am always happy to engage in discussion in the right environment, and I'm glad to engage with this, even though you and I won't see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.  I feel like you're a victim of culture-war lies, based on some of the talking points you used, and that sucks - but hell, I could be wrong.

[Dashenka]

I feel like you're a victim of culture-war lies, based on some of the talking points you used, and that sucks - but hell, I could be wrong.

This.

This bit right here is what is wrong with society today.



"If you think different from me, you must be wrong and believe in lies."


Guess what...

Nah never mind actually. I'm going to leave it at that.

[firepyre]

Oh.  Oh, buddy, pyre, my dude.  Okay, lemme take it from the top.

DUDEBRO, MY MAN! Your posting history is accessible to everyone, so cut the condescending shit. If you want to think you're the smartest guy in the room, then by all means, do so... but maybe make it a tad less obvious. It's very hard to take anyone seriously when they're preening like a peacock.

Ah. "The political system in general" didn't do 06Jan and isn't pushing a system that would allow state legislatures to just ... ignore votes.  No, that doesn't really hold water my dude.  Yeah, the Democratic party is kind of a turdbasket - you get that with coalition parties, which it very much is - but really only one party is pushing election denialism without evidence.

I think you kinda lost the plot here.  That said, as far as Trump getting elected...

Ah.  You're kinda answering your own question though, but the problem is that the GOP enabled that political class.  I mean ... which Supreme Court justices supported Citizen's United?  Which didn't?  That kinda let the issue go into overdrive.

But I don't think that outrage against the "political class" is quite right.  If that were the case, we wouldn't still see frogger Senator McConnell still in place, unless you think "political class" means something other than I think it does - in which case, maybe you should define it?

See, a lot of Trump's support also came from people who are worried about fake culture war bullshit - cancel culture and "woke leftism", as though that's really a thing.  It's a lot of people falling for propaganda, because it's easy to make people feel afraid.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. I'm not saying I support the republicans, or even trying to defend them really. I'm not even trying to say the democrats are equally bad - If I was American, and absolutely had to vote for one of the two, I'd vote Democrats without question. However, at best, I consider them the lesser of two evils. Regardless of which side you pick they're far more interested in staying in power than they are in effective governance. That's why I think the system is broken, and why trump actually got a decent percentage of the vote. Not because he's a "great guy", but because he was perceived as outside the system. Which, ironically, is somewhat true - he clearly doesn't give a fuck about little things like say, getting voted in...

My goal was not to plug one party or another, but to draw focus to what I consider to be the real problem: The system that keeps the major parties in power. Choosing between bad, or worse is not a good system. It's not that I disagree with any of the examples you or Vekseid raise, it's that I consider them a symptom of a system that allows those kinds of people to gain a position of power in the first place.

Well, here there aren't really any lies - maybe some exaggeration and hyperbole, but no lies.  Well, calling the Democratic party "the left" is disingenuous - liberalism and leftism are not the same and equating them is false, but that's neither here nor there.

Actually I chose to use right and left here intentionally, because I wanted to convey that I was talking in general terms, not specifically about Democrats and Republicans, but about the political divide and extremism in general. I'm pretty sure that's the only time I used the right and left terminology in my entire spiel. I actually find the ideas of "right" and "left" to be a gross oversimplification, which is only really somewhat useful in the absolute broadest sense.

Of course, I do think the right is mostly corrupt, with a few decent examples - Liz Cheney as a standout, before her ouster, and anyone else who has consistently spoken out against MAGA bullshit.  Unfortunately, the numbers aren't big there.  Instead, you get Space Laser Lady acting like a shot-caller.  Neat.

On the left we have ... what?  A president's kid, who holds no position in the government?  SecState Clinton?  Got any other big examples of bad eggs, because I'm tired of hearing about Hunter Biden's laptop and Hilary's emails.  Those have been investigated and looked into, and any steps that needed to be taken were, in fact, taken.  Compare and contrast Trump holding onto TS/SCI documents and not cooperating with the investigation.  When I hear the GOP call that a witchhunt, it kinda undermines their credibility.
No real comments here.  This is worth worrying about - although maybe for reasons other than the ones you have.

Skipping this. I don't have much to say about any of this for reasons that should be pretty obvious at this point.

Yeah, that was said.  (Also, I agree - misleading bullshit should be called out when put out.  Note, he didn't say you were lying or attempting to deceive, as far as I noted)

He wasn't referring to a post I made, but somebody else's. It's probably worth noting too, that if Vekseid really wanted to, I assume he could probably implement whatever rules on speech he wanted to on E, but thus far at least, he's willing to tolerate being challenged about it, and more importantly, he engages through forum posts rather than administrative controls. I think that's quite admirable.

This is ... almost true, but something of a false equivalency.

I don't think anybody is decrying all conservative views, and I don't think anybody is looking to BLM - the movement or the legal entity which engaged in fraudulent activity for governance.  Nevertheless, let's look at a cross section of conservative movements:

06Jan - Well, we can blame that on MAGA, right?

Election denialism - That's ... a little harder to blame on MAGA, considering how much the GOP has refused to actually back off the topic.

Citizen's united - That was a bunch of conservative justices.  Kennedy, Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts.  These are kinda the conservative mainstream, my man.

Abortion ban without exceptions - Yeah, this ain't just MAGA my dude.

Supply-side (Trickle down) economics - hysterical laughing

Well, this is presumptive.  If anyone were going to cry foul I doubt it would be over Veks views - he has been very up-front about them, and pretty energetic about provide specific examples - like the GOP trying to pass legislation that would take this site down.  I will cry foul with "tarring the entire conservative movement with the corrupt actions of a few" - it's been the few GOP who haven't sandbagged the economy and haven't been part of cruel legislation.  I lean libertarian by preference, and to me?  The GOP and their insistence on getting in the way of local matters and involving themselves in my personal choice doesn't feel like freedom - it feels like rulership.  But that's my bias.

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing here. I'm pointing out that there's a certain degree of hypocrisy(that's probably too strong of a word, but I don't have a better one. Sorry Vekseid.) in telling someone they shouldn't be allowed to share their views, no matter how wrong they might be, while simultaneously plugging your own. I agree I'm being presumptive about how Veskeid might respond, it's probably not necessary, but when I wrote it, I felt that it helped to reinforce what 'm trying to say, and indicate that I'm not just referring to that particular example in isolation.

I find your faith in humanity cute, but naive.  I have faith in God - and I have faith that Man has the free will to fuck it all up.

I'm an atheist. So that's a whole different kettle of fish again, right there. I feel much the same way about your faith in higher powers as you do about my trust in humanity. So let's not. You trust in God, and I'll trust in humanity.

On the whole "woke" topic, I'll go ahead and point out that "fixing the birth lottery" is way easier to do if you can look at the aftermath of the way disadvantaged groups - ethnic, religious, what-the-fuck-ever - have been boned in the past.  From an engineering perspective, diagnosis is damned hard if you aren't allowed to look at all the data - and whitewashing our history, as anti-wokeism tends to encourage, is a great way to never fix anything.  Wait, no, in engineering terms teaching shit based on bad data is how you get normalized deviation.  Way less kinky than it might sound.

I'd argue you're confusing the symptoms with the cause.  There is no white history, or black history, or any other sort of history. It's the same events from different angles. Regardless of perspective, it's all just history. Same goes for culture. Culture is not a static thing. It evolves, and mixes.  That's healthy. I don't have to be Mexican to enjoy Mexican food. I agree that there are issues with the way history is taught, and thought about, but it's really not all that different to any other information you're fed. And just like anything else, you should treat it with a degree of scepticism, rather than blindly accepting whatever you're told.

But when they don't, argue with them.

Buddy, that's not how the marketplace of ideas works.  Or free speech.  Particularly not in an environment where discussion is supposed to happen.

Now, what you did differently than Persephone was you brought up the discussion in a thread that was relevant, rather than side-tracking the conversation in an unrelated thread.  Unironic kudos for that - I am always happy to engage in discussion in the right environment, and I'm glad to engage with this, even though you and I won't see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.  I feel like you're a victim of culture-war lies, based on some of the talking points you used, and that sucks - but hell, I could be wrong.

Are you not making an argument? If not, what would you call it? Freedom of speech is pretty simple. I say what I think, and you say what you think. Maybe I strike a chord, maybe you do. Or maybe we just both decide the other person isn't worth talking to any more. That's it.

Trust people to sort it out for themselves. Try to influence them yourself if you want. And let them say what they want. Maybe even listen to what they're trying to say...

As soon as you start limiting what people can and can't say, it's not free speech anymore. What you definitely shouldn't do is demand they shut up. That's a slippery slope, and a classic authoritarian move. Today it's hate speech, tomorrow it's insulting the Chief Idiot(hint: the orange guy ;P). If people are actually buying into hate speech, I think you've got a much bigger underlying problem to deal with.

[Oniya]

Ahem.

I would suggest that people review the stickies in this forum, particularly the ones on our policies regarding misinformation (including the use of sources) and the one on our logical fallacies announcement.

Unlike other social venues, the policy here is that if you say something, you should be prepared to back it up with sources.

[Iniquitous]

As soon as you start limiting what people can and can't say, it's not free speech anymore. What you definitely shouldn't do is demand they shut up. That's a slippery slope, and a classic authoritarian move. Today it's hate speech, tomorrow it's insulting the Chief Idiot(hint: the orange guy ;P). If people are actually buying into hate speech, I think you've got a much bigger underlying problem to deal with.

Freedom of speech is NOT the 'I can say whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want and there is nothing you can do about it.'

Freedom of speech is the right to speak your mind, especially concerning the government and governance, without being prosecuted by said government.

People seem to forget that there, absolutely, are consequences. Matter of fact, it seems now that people think those consequences are "cancel culture".  And I'll be the first to say shut up if someone is running off at the mouth about crap I don't want to hear.  I live by the 'fuck around and find out' mentality so I have no qualms with being rather 'authoritarian' in my life.

[firepyre]

You know what? You're absolutely right. I would like to rescind my comments on absolute freedom of speech. There are things you probably shouldn't do with speech. Fraud is probably a good example. I can see I was indeed wrong there. Sorry.

However, I stand by that trying to shout someone down because you disagree with their genuinely held views is problematic, regardless of any limitations of free speech. That is not constructive. It will not change their opinion,  and shows little to no regard for people's ability to filter information for themselves.

I would much rather have as broad a pool of perspectives to draw from as possible, even if it has the potential to cause harm, than to have someone else controlling what information is available to me.

[Azy]

There are limits to free speech, and for good reason.  The most commonly used example is yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire.  It probably wouldn't be as a big a deal now with fire codes, but back in the late 1700's when theaters were overcrowded tinder boxes basically, panic caused people to get hurt and killed.  Then there is the issue of slander and libel.  Things that harm another's reputation that aren't true.  I often mix them up, but I think libel is printed and slander is spoken.

The first Amendment says that the government cannot penalize you for speaking your beliefs.  If I own a store that you go to, and you start going on a political rant that I find offensive, I would be well within my rights to ask you to leave my property.  Of course you would be well within your rights to tell your friends to boycott my store.  Threats are punishable by law, and I believe there is also a sticky about that here.  So no, you cannot just run around speaking whatever pops into your mind.     

And honestly, because of the crap that the Republican voters have believed, I would go as far as to say they are quite ignorant.  Someone who thinks a woman who tweets about Jewish space lasers is a good choice to represent them.... god bless them....  The sheer stupidity I hear when listening to certain people speak makes my head hurt.   

[Oniya]

Things that harm another's reputation that aren't true.  I often mix them up, but I think libel is printed and slander is spoken.

In 11th grade, we had a combined Civics and English class.  The trick we were taught was slander is spoken, and libel is literary.  (i.e., written, but that was the best word to fit the mnemonic).  So your recollection is correct.

[persephone325]

And honestly, because of the crap that the Republican voters have believed, I would go as far as to say they are quite ignorant.

It's statements like this that are adding to the division and not allowing productive conversations to take place...

If I said something to the effect of "Democrats are quite stupid for believing in gender-affirming care for children that will allow them to make the choice to undergo irreversible surgery and mutilate their genitals before they even realize what they're for." I would be blasted and you would probably be offended because I'm generalizing an entire group and assigning that label to every single person.

It's fine if you personally think that, but just know that there are people here who identify as Republican (or at least leaning that way) who probably don't agree with that woman and would find your statement quite ignorant itself.

[Dashenka]

Elliquiy has long been a place of 'I can say whatever I want, as long as it's popular believe on Elliquiy.'

The moment you say things on Elliquiy like:

- MAGA is the best policy in a long long time.
- Guns don't kill people.
- We cannot stop climate change.
- I don't get on my knees for BLM.
- I won't respect a transgender if they don't respect me.


Or anything closely resembling a right side political spectrum view... you are basically fair game to everybody here.


You have to expect condescending bullshit posts. (those people showing their true colours and making a complete fool out of themselves)
You have to expect being called 'quite ignorant'. (If you seriously believe that Democrat politics are the only truth, you are the definition of ignorance yourself.)
And you have to expect a lot of more stuff, like being called a racist or homophobe.


Now that wouldn't be so bad if there was a backup to those claims but calling me ignorant or be a condescending PoS with the only backup that you 'believe in God', or calling me a homophobe and a racist for having a slightly different opinion on the LGBTQ community and refusing to get on my knees to show my support for BLM is just wrong, but it's Elliquiy at the same time. Even those who argue sensibly are still , mostly, not open to hear other people's opinions. They want to convince others that their believes are right. That's not how a discussion or a debate works.

These people are barking up the Democrat, socialist, woke and cancel tree and therefor it's found mostly acceptable.
Had these people been barking up the Republican, liberal tree, I think we all know the outcome to that.

Make of that what you will.



I thought it was just me getting shit for being an obnoxious cantankerous bitch, which I totally am, but I see now there's more people getting the same shit.

The government won't judge you, the people on Elliquiy will.

[Oniya]

Ahem.

I would suggest that people review the stickies in this forum, particularly the ones on our policies regarding misinformation (including the use of sources) and the one on our logical fallacies announcement.

Unlike other social venues, the policy here is that if you say something, you should be prepared to back it up with sources.

[persephone325]

*snip*

Unfortunate, but feels true.

Quote your sources... Oh, but that's not the right source so I'm gonna pick it apart because it doesn't align with my beliefs.
You said XYZ and that's offensive and wrong. But you're just focusing on one part of my point - not the overall message.
You don't support Biden? Well, you obviously support Trump and MAGA. ...No? Did I say that? I don't think I did...

That's the general vibe that I feel when I'm here.

Blindly believing in everything that pertains to your political affiliation does make you ignorant to an extent. If you don't seek out opposing views, then you're not educating yourself.

Speaking from experience, I used to just blindly accept that Trump was evil and he had it out for everyone. Once I started doing my own research (using multiple sources, both left and right) on things and finding out that things I thought to be true actually weren't... It really opened my eyes.

[Dashenka]

Ahem.

I would suggest that people review the stickies in this forum, particularly the ones on our policies regarding misinformation (including the use of sources) and the one on our logical fallacies announcement.

Unlike other social venues, the policy here is that if you say something, you should be prepared to back it up with sources.

My backup is right up there in the other people's posts.

And the fact that I am a cantankerous bitch is quite obvious I believe :)

[Vekseid]

This seems more appropriate in this thread, so I'll respond here.

Which is why you just spouted a bunch of anti-republican crap,

What was false?

False enough to be called 'crap' at least.

when it's painfully obvious to everybody outside of America that the issue isn't with the Republicans, OR the Democrats,

Find me one partisan vote in the past two decades, and tell me why the Republican position is the superior one.

I'm sure there are some reasonable ones, but I would be surprised if I need two hands to count them.

but rather the political system in general. It's so utterly flawed and corrupt that it beggars belief. Putting aside the die hard trump muppets for a moment? How do you think he got into power in the first place? You can't tell me that 50% of americans actually buy his crap?

No. But barely 50% of Americans vote each election. Less than half vote Republican.

So that's roughly ~30% of the country.

Meanwhile half of them are drinking some serious koolaid.

Nonetheless, in the United States there is a developing system of competing realities. Separate media environments have painted very different views of reality between 'the left' and 'the right'.

This tends to lead to violence, historically. There is cultural precedent for what follows.

I refuse to believe your average american is that dumb. He got into power because people hate the political class. It was a statement against a system that lets only a select few rule, where laws are largely determined by what the lobbyists are willing to pay to push through.

He got into power for a great many reasons. He was millions behind in the popular vote. He won only by 80,000 votes in three states that Clinton largely ignored. When an election is so close there are countless factors at play. Many believed the straight up lies being told about Clinton, for example. Buttery males.

There's glaring issues on both sides of the political divide, and what you see is largely what you're willing to see.

Name an issue Democrats have as glaring as any one of the following:

1) Having a president who took HUMINT documents to his personal resort and left it there after he lost the election.

2) Having half of their voting population think a coup is totally fine.

3) Their stance on medical care in the US.

Speaking of which...

The left thinks the right is totally corrupt, the right thinks the left is nothing but bad eggs, and meanwhile the corrupt continue to foster and reap the benefits of that division.

Man, I wonder why corruption is such a problem. Could it be because we have an entire political party that more or less ignores it?

It's not a uniquely american problem, but it seems far more obvious/entrenched in america compared to most other western nations.

I don't know how to fix it at this point, but I worry about where america is headed. It's big enough and powerful enough that it affects everyone, american or not.

Dunno, I used to believe that demographics would have crushed the Republicans starting around 2016.

Well, it did, technically.

Now they are facing a number of consequences of their own tactics.

You said "We need to do better than to make, believe, and spread statements like yours."

But you did pretty much the exact same thing as Persephone(admittedly because you were invited to, which i'm not sure if that makes it better, or worse). So there was corruption within the BLM movement. So there is corruption within the republican party. A few bad eggs within the BLM movement doesnt make what it represents any less meaningful. And a few bad eggs within the republicans doesn't make all conservative views evil either.

You think? This is exactly what I was saying.

Nearly everyone except you understood it as what I was saying.

She called BLM, itself, a proven scam. And walked that back.

It is not. BLM is a slogan. An idea.

An idea can be a scam. Pyramid schemes are an idea.

"Black lives matter (too)" is no such convoluted concept. They pick flawed people to rally around, usually, and for awhile I took issue with this. In the end, though, it is probably for the best. The flawed deserve respect, too, because we all are.

People jumped on the bandwagon and took advantage. The same thing has happened with everything from fidget spinners to cryptocurrency.

And before you cry foul, and claim that you were only giving isolated examples or somesuch... It's pretty obvious to anybody who has interacted with you that you have pretty strongly Democratic values, and jumped on the opportunity to bag on the Republicans, tarring the entire conservative movement with the corrupt actions of a few...

I don't much like the MAGA idiots. But I don't have much love for woke identity politics either.

Yeah some people confusing pronouns and proper nouns are totally on the same level as storming the capital to overturn a legitimate election.

On of these is, at worst, rude and confusing.

The other is getting people murdered.

I do think people should be able to believe and spread whatever crap they like though. I have enough faith in humanity that the shit will eventually trickle to the bottom and sort itself out.

You can believe whatever you like. But please trust other people enough to form their own opinions, and sort the bullshit from the fact. Not everyone will agree with you. But when they don't, argue with them. Try to help them see your side, present your opinions and evidence. Don't tell them they need to shut up because you don't want to hear it.

I made a very specific statement about what should not be said or spread.

False accusations against others.

Let's argue it though.

Tell me why blood libel and its relatives (adrenochrome conspiracies and such) are okay, fyrepyre.

[persephone325]

*cut*

Crap doesn't mean false.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

something of extremely poor quality.
"please bring me back the tackiest piece of tourist crap you can find"

    nonsense.
    "this is just to give you a small idea of the kind of crap I have to deal with"
    rubbish; junk.
    "we have an awful lot of crap in our loft"

2.
excrement.

    an act of defecation.
    plural noun: craps

Corruption. How about the fact that Twitter has been exposed as having shadow-banned and suppressed certain political accounts? Mainly conservatives. And the founder lied about it. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/elon-musk-confirms-political-candidates-subject-shadow-banning-twitter

BLM scammed and defrauded people. That is true. You chose to focus on when I said "BLM was a scam" and not even acknowledge that I said "Yeah, it doesn't make the whole movement a scam," when you replied to me. Poor choice of wording, but doesn't negate the fact that people were scammed and defrauded. That is not a false accusation.

Out of curiosity, I searched this forum for instances of people hating/bashing/whatever you want to call it on Republicans. There's three:

It’s almost like you don’t think it’s worth bothering to blame the Republicans for being evil and stupid, because, well, that’s kinda their nature.

Calling an entire group of people "evil and stupid".

American media is particularly egregious; they routine put batshit insane Republicans next to legit academics on the same panel.

"Batshit insane Republicans next to legit academics", insinuating that all Republicans are crazy and none of them could ever be "legit academics".

And honestly, because of the crap that the Republican voters have believed, I would go as far as to say they are quite ignorant.

And then this one, labeling Republicans as ignorant.

I could only find one post in which someone called Democrats "manipulative".

(It is very late and my search was not in depth for either side.)

This is childish behavior to call the opposing side names, as that would give your argument any kind of weight. In all of my posts, I have never thrown any sort of insult to the other side. Why is behavior tolerated? If you wish to create a space to "debate" or "have discussions" as you claim, then why are there no unbiased moderators here to keep things in check? How many of you look to neutral or opposing sides for your sources? From what I have seen lately, I daresay none of you. I would be happy to be proven wrong. Like I said earlier if people aren't looking for viewpoints that oppose their own, then they're not learning. They're just stuck in their own biased bubble.

I realize this is a bit off topic, but this section of the board has started to turn into a sort of hivemind of people patting each other on the back for hating Trump and supporting Biden and the Democrats. It's a dangerous mindset. This is why it is so difficult to have any sort of meaningful discussion here because the people who have differing opinions get jumped on and talked down to with condescending and defensive posts.

[TheGlyphstone]

Corruption. How about the fact that Twitter has been exposed as having shadow-banned and suppressed certain political accounts? Mainly conservatives. And the founder lied about it. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/elon-musk-confirms-political-candidates-subject-shadow-banning-twitter

"Yes," Musk simply replied, but he did not provide detail on any specific political candidates who were subject to shadow-banning."

Claiming someone has proof is not proof, as demonstrated by the continued antics of the My Pillow Guy. If Musk actually names details, that is 100% solid proof. You accuse other people of filtering information, and offer up a one-word twitter reply from a noted conservative quoted on a highly conservative talk show and ask people to take it as fact. Even genuinely unbiased people are going to want more than that - I'm certainly not going to take Musk at his word, even if he 'launches rockets into space'.

And yet you are at least offering some sources, even if they are flimsy ones. You are incredibly, almost uniquely rare in this. It is, regrettably as someone once counted themselves as mildly conservative until the American right took a flying leap off the cliff of bigotry and conspiracy theories, far too common for conservatives to come in blasting the latest declarations from Newsmax, OAN, and Fox News as facts, then scream 'censorship' when they are questioned. Most of them simply don't know 'how' to cite their sources, because they've never had to communicate with anyone who didn't already agree with them.

This is, by nature, a very liberal and left-leaning community, because it is LGBTQ-friendly and the American right has all but declared open war on that community. That's reality. If you want to earn respect as a minority opinion holder, you'll have to prove yourself above the lowest common denominator that we have come to expect. Does it suck? Yeah, it kind of does. Is it unfair? A bit. But if you need to attribute blame for this, spread it between your opponents here, and your ideological allies who have so thoroughly poisoned the well that it's what they have all come to expect. Complaining about how 'censored' and 'canceled' you are by 'woke liberal PC police' like an automated MadLibs generator set to 'Conservative buzzwords' does nothing but reaffirm their suspicions.

If that is too much to read, see this comic

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Prove to people you are worth engaging with, and you'll get engagement. I can only think of one or two people here on E who have risen to that challenge; they don't appear here often, but are listened to when they do even if people don't agree. Retreat back into the comfort of victimhood or repeat the talking points of the, in SMBC's words, 'crazy assholes', and you'll just get lumped right back in with them. It's up to you. And again - no, it's not fair, but life rarely is. Take that how you will.

[Vekseid]

Or anything closely resembling a right side political spectrum view... you are basically fair game to everybody here.

The 'right side' of the political spectrum has, as component viewpoints:

- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- A remarkable tolerance for the presence of actual nazis at their marches
- Forcing women to carry ectopic pregnancies to their deaths
- Educational sabotage
- Evolution denialism
- Climate denialism
- Election denialism
- Vaccine denialism

It has become an endless tirade of factless bullshit.

Denying reality does not deserve respect.

Denying reality gets people killed.

Particularly over the past few decades, it has been absorbing ever-greater amounts of fact-free, often violent rhetoric. People are getting killed. The conservative policies I agree with have been drowned out by increasingly idiotic beliefs and actions, and what in some cases has come to include what I can only describe as outright treason. The right-wing in the United States has become this amorphous blob accepting and promoting every single fringe idea that tickles the fancy of a sufficient number of people primed to believe it.

If you seriously believe that Democrat politics are the only truth, you are the definition of ignorance yourself.

And then there's this. Most people who vote Democrat think the Democratic party and the overwhelming majority of its membership is pretty miserable.

Seriously put up a poll and ask them.

The alternative is a group of people who have constructed a completely separate reality for themselves. The handful of sane Republicans got driven out.

Now that wouldn't be so bad if there was a backup to those claims but calling me ignorant or be a condescending PoS with the only backup that you 'believe in God', or calling me a homophobe and a racist for having a slightly different opinion on the LGBTQ community

Calling human beings 'it' is not a slightly different opinion.

Defending Russia's right to execute LBTQ members is not a slightly different opinion.

You straight up denied the humanity of others.

You had people here who considered you a close friend who were very, very hurt by what you said, Dashenka.

You deserved every piece of criticism that came to you over this.

and refusing to get on my knees to show my support for BLM

Name one person who has even asked you to.

You aren't even American, why is it even relevant to you? The entire movement is about making police in the United States more accountable for executing people. Many said victims happen to be white.

Even those who argue sensibly are still , mostly, not open to hear other people's opinions. They want to convince others that their believes are right. That's not how a discussion or a debate works.

Well to be open to other opinions you have to set, as a core concept, what would make you change your mind.

What would make me change my mind is if the underlying facts I have learned were in fact false.

Which is the crux of most of this.

These people are barking up the Democrat, socialist, woke and cancel tree and therefor it's found mostly acceptable.

What does 'woke' mean to you?

[Dashenka]

Defending Russia's right to execute LBTQ members is not a slightly different opinion.

What does 'woke' mean to you?

First point: I never said this. Don't insult me by trying to put lies in my posts.

Second point: Woke means absolutely nothing to me.



I'm done.

[Azy]

It's statements like this that are adding to the division and not allowing productive conversations to take place...

If I said something to the effect of "Democrats are quite stupid for believing in gender-affirming care for children that will allow them to make the choice to undergo irreversible surgery and mutilate their genitals before they even realize what they're for." I would be blasted and you would probably be offended because I'm generalizing an entire group and assigning that label to every single person.

It's fine if you personally think that, but just know that there are people here who identify as Republican (or at least leaning that way) who probably don't agree with that woman and would find your statement quite ignorant itself.

Where did I say it was all Republicans?  My second sentence that you did not include in your point was an example of the crap that I meant.  I do find it troubling that Nazis are finding a home in that party.  I find it troubling that many think 'good Christian values' are something that need to be rammed down everyone's throat via legislation and overturning decades old Supreme Court decisions.  The only reason a law was recently passed to ensure the protection of homosexual marriage and interracial marriage was because since the overturn of Roe v. Wade by a heavily conservative group of judges caused us to be a little afraid of what might be next. 

There are elected officials who are still pushing the idea that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump.  There are Republicans who have stayed on the sane side, like those who joined the Jan 6th panel.  Liz Cheney was pushed out because she didn't kiss the Trump ring. 

I think I posted earlier that the 2022 election gave me some hope.  The red wave became a pink trickle because the voters seemed to reject the crazy for the most part.  But you can't deny that when an elected Republican official tweets out something bizarre it makes your whole party look bad because voters heard those things but voted for them anyway.  I mean... did you listen to Herschel Walker speak?  I saw a clip where he seemed amazed that a vampire could kill a werewolf.  He was less coherent than Trump.  He took a hard anti-abortion stance, yet had several women come forward about him getting them pregnant and then pretty much forcing them to get an abortion which he paid for.  They had pictures, get well cards, cancelled checks.  All he did was say they were lying.  The race was close.  A lot of people still voted for him. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cl3hsfZVXw

Thousands of Georgians voted for this......       

[Rinzler]

You aren't even American, why is it even relevant to you? The entire movement is about making police in the United States more accountable for executing people. Many said victims happen to be white.

Yeah, you know, a lot of us folk in the UK have been asking the same thing. It appears to have escaped your attention that the England football team still takes the knee for BLM, as they've been doing at the Qatar world cup. Additional cringe came when they played the US - the US players remained standing, while the England team took the knee for, as you put it, 'making police in the United States more accountable for executing people'.

Unfortunately, when folk over here bring this up, it's usually met with some disingenuous variation of 'why are you opposed to taking a stand against racism'? Pain in the arse, really.

[Iniquitous]

Woke: Aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woke

I feel like the right leaning and far right individuals think calling someone woke is an insult, much as they think calling someone a liberal is an insult. (I suspect this would be because they would be insulted to have someone call them woke or liberal).  Kind of funny to me because, as I told my far right believing father, it is not an insult to me.  I -am- woke.  I am not a liberal (though I don’t mind being called one), I am a leftist.

I do not agree with a lot of what the Democractic party says and does, I am not a Biden fan. (I voted for him solely to get Trump out of office.) I use to agree wiith some of what the Republicans use to stand for. Now? I’ll vote Democrat every single election because the Republicans in Washington now, as far as I can see, stand for everything I am against.  The stuff coming out of the coonserative party scares the shit out of me.  Anti-LGBTQIA+ (my daughter is gay), anti-trans (my ‘adopted’ son is trans), forced birth, theocratical, racist, anti-female, etc.  There is an undercurrent of disgust and derision against the poor, a deliberate twisting of a faith to suit their own beliefs, a desire to hurt the people they disagree with.  There is an undeniable hate that exudes from them.

I live in the south, in a staunchly red state. I work in a corrections facility that is focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment. The sheer amount of hateful shit I hear from my coworkers (a good 98% of who identify as conservative republican) is both mind boggling and heartbreaking.  Refusing to use a person’s correct pronouns (we recently had a trans inmate) and even calling her an ‘it’ and a ‘shim’. Subtle cracks at homosexual inmates. Rolling their eyes and remarks about training we go through that teaches how trauma effects a person’s responses and actions which land them in corrections (they call these training sessions ‘woke training’ cause it goes against their preconceived beliefs that the inmates are just ‘bad’). Talk about how crazy the democrats are and how all democrats should be shipped out pf the country.

I try hard to view the whole political identification the way I view people’s differing religious beliefs - I may not have met a truly decent republican who values the lives of everyone, respects a woman’s right to choose, respects everyone’s right to choose their own beliefs, and believes that everyone is deserving of respect, food, medical care, a roof over their head, and an education, but I am sure they exist.  Thus, I try very hard not to lump everyone who identifies as republican in the same basket (though this is getting harder to do with the constant stream of hateful and idiotic crap that comes from the current republicans in Washington.)

The thing about debating the politics of republican and democrat is that I am not going to change my mind on my core beliefs.  Everyone deserves respect. Everyone deserves healthy food. Everyone deserves medical care. Everyone deserves a place to live. Everyone deserves an education. Everyone deserves to be safe. Everyone deserves the right to choose their own belief system.  These are core beliefs and I am not going to think too highly of someone who tries to change my mind on them. If there is a debate on how the budget is spent, that is a debate (and possible change of mind) I can support. If there is a debate on whether we keep sending money and weapons to Ukraine, I can support that debate (though I would be divided personally because of my core beliefs).
I think that the reason the members of E that identify as republican/right leaning feel attacked/ostracized is because the political landscape has changed so much and we are inundated with the most hateful and crazy things that the current batch of Washington republicans say and do. It IS hard to remember that not every single republican/right leaning person does not believe the same. But I also think that if sonene were to post something negative about republicans it should be understood that the poster is not saying something negative about every single republican.

I also believe that (republican or democrat) you are responsible for standing up and saying ‘that is wrong’ when your political party says or does something hateful and/or stupid. Staying silent when they do makes you complicit.

[Azy]

I also believe that (republican or democrat) you are responsible for standing up and saying ‘that is wrong’ when your political party says or does something hateful and/or stupid. Staying silent when they do makes you complicit.

This right here is my big thing.  You don't want to be lumped in with the fringe?  Then say something!  Instead of lecturing me, lecture your fellow Republicans.  Jewish space lasers and China's bad air is what is representing your party in the media right now.  When Donald Trump called white supremacists fine people no one with an R next to their name said peep. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/anti-asian-hate-crimes-increased-nearly-150-2020-mostly-n-n1260264

I'm sorry, but rhetoric that emboldens people to harm others is just disgusting, and the fact that there weren't many Republican voices speaking out against it was disheartening.  The party seems to be backing away from Trump now, but only because he cost them this midterm.  The potential new stars don't seem all that much better to me.  I know bigotry is never going to go completely away, but it would be awesome to not see any bigots in government anymore.  The only way that's going to happen is for Republican voters to stop voting for people like that.  And yes, if I see a Democrat acting like that you bet your sweet ass I'll call them out and refuse to vote for them.   

[persephone325]

The 'right side' of the political spectrum has, as component viewpoints:

- Transphobia
- Homophobia
- A remarkable tolerance for the presence of actual nazis at their marches
- Forcing women to carry ectopic pregnancies to their deaths
- Educational sabotage
- Evolution denialism
- Climate denialism
- Election denialism
- Vaccine denialism

I don't have any of these viewpoints.

And I would like to point out the hypocrisy that there's no election denial on the Democrats side. When Bush won in 2004, Democrats cried foul. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/democrats-are-big-believers-in-their-own-big-lie

When Trump did the same thing, the whole "election denial" movement (or whatever) is pinned on him.

I have been a member of this community for over 10 years and have offered my support to its countless LBGTQ members. I support beliefs from both sides. Now that I have a viewpoint that leans towards the Republican side, it makes me feel like I'm the devil to you people. I need to prove I'm worth engaging with...

There it is. "Cite your sources, oh but that's not the right one." or "It's flimsy at best." Why? Cause it's Fox News? Cause it didn't drop names? OK. Have this one: https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/3770581-elon-musk-shows-shadow-banning-of-conservatives-no-conspiracy-theory/

Here's a video of someone talking about it. Though you may not like it because she's a Republican.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfqiEIk5zO0

[Oniya]

Ever seen someone claim that 'furries want litterboxes in school restrooms'?  Or post up something from the Borowitz Report as if it wasn't satire? 

Or say that dead children weren't actually dead, and their families are lying and cashing in on this whole Sandy Hook thing?

Ever seen a shit-ton of people believe it?

I have.  This is why I want to know where people are getting their information.  This is why there are some sources that are bad.

[Azy]

And of course when it came time to certify the election results for Bush, the Democrats stormed the capitol trying to kill Congress people and overthrow the government.  Oh wait..... 

I don't remember a whole lot back then except it was the first time I was able to vote.  The average 18 year old doesn't watch political commentary.  I remember I wasn't happy about the result, but I didn't send death threats to poll workers. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/27/were-going-to-hang-you-doj-cracks-down-on-threats-to-election-workers-ahead-of-high-stakes-midterms.html

I don't think anyone is calling you personally the devil, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of people have done a lot of heinous things in the name of Trump and the GOP.  I can't speak for everyone, but what I really want to see is for the average conservative to denounce these things and take back the party.  Disagreeing on how the national budget should be put together is one thing.  Calling refugees animals is quite another.

And then of course people were killed over wearing masks because Trump decided to turn it into a political thing.  I was no fan of President Bush, but nothing like this happened while he was in the White House.  I think the worst thing he ever did was give a speech while drunk.  At least that's what people speculated because of the way he slurred his words.   

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/06/15/killing-of-georgia-cashier-is-latest-in-a-string-of-fatal-shootings-over-mask-wearing-here-are-the-rest/?sh=484a0c15764e