Mormonism

Started by Hrairoo, October 19, 2020, 05:54:15 PM

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almostalice

Its like someone read my mind.

I'm an adult convert, sort of. My father's side of the family can trace back to the days of Smith and Young (my something something something great grandfather was Young's bodyguard and I have visited the plot in Nauvoo where they lived). My grandparents on that side left the church however before my father was born. So I wasn't raised Mormon, but when I converted at 25 it was treated like I was coming home in a sense.

I enjoy the cultural aspects of the church and the members in my ward are wonderful people who I owe so much too as they came together to make sure I had what I needed after a terrible car accident. I just no longer believe the doctrine. It is weird being stuck in this place where I don't want to walk away from the people but at the same time want to like sit them down and go LOOK!

Quote from: Maethaneos on January 13, 2021, 12:27:14 PM
I was born into, raised in, baptized, and am still even an active member in LDS. I just don't really ascribe to much of the unique beliefs, though an aspect of their doctrine was actually rather influential as I built my original universe.

There's always been such a disconnect between my personal experience with the church and accounts of questionable ethics. I've never knowingly met an unpleasant Mormon. It's only ever heard of poor ethics via second-hand account -- barring actual history. Funnily enough my last blessing was given to me by a black man.

I consider myself a non-Mormon member, in some sense. There are three kinds of members anyways; active, inactive, and non-member. The non-member still amongst the three kinds of members. Maybe I'm the unspoken fourth kind who only comes for the community. My local ward and past ward for that matter have good people doing good things and I like to be involved. Insofar as community projects go anyways. I avoid any activities that involve much of the theological side of things.

I think I might have to steal the idea of being a non-Mormon member, because that seems to fit me exactly.

Hrairoo

Quote from: almostalice on January 19, 2021, 04:28:01 PM
Its like someone read my mind.

I'm an adult convert, sort of. My father's side of the family can trace back to the days of Smith and Young (my something something something great grandfather was Young's bodyguard and I have visited the plot in Nauvoo where they lived). My grandparents on that side left the church however before my father was born. So I wasn't raised Mormon, but when I converted at 25 it was treated like I was coming home in a sense.

I enjoy the cultural aspects of the church and the members in my ward are wonderful people who I owe so much too as they came together to make sure I had what I needed after a terrible car accident. I just no longer believe the doctrine. It is weird being stuck in this place where I don't want to walk away from the people but at the same time want to like sit them down and go LOOK!

I think I might have to steal the idea of being a non-Mormon member, because that seems to fit me exactly.

Hey, almostalice! It's heartening to hear that so many haven't bought into the religion wholly and can simply enjoy the friends made among the people. I think it is a common experience, more common than a lot realize. I only found out after my shelf broke that there is something called a New Order Mormon(NOM), people who for one reason or another cannot resign or who know the doctrine is bogus but stay for the community. My dad is what is called a "Dry Mormon"; never baptized, but he always attended with our family growing up, and he goes to all the activities and classes and knows the doctrine as well as any other Mormon.

That's quite a pedigree as well. I'm tempted to ask what the bodyguard's name was, because there were a couple who are infamous.  XD

almostalice

Yeah. My church friends like to joke I have the church pedigree most members dream about having. Nauvoo, body guard to a prophet, I've got a captain of a handcart company and a family member that help rescued the Martin Handcart company in there as well. The only thing I was never able to find is why they moved back from Utah to the midwest.

And of course I can't find the documentation on which exact great great whatever it was, but the last name was Tidwell. I don't think he was one of the notorious ones or I should say I've not found it noted anywhere that he did anything worth writing down.

Damien

So I don't think I've ever talked about this subject on E but this seems like a good place for it. I'm a former Mormon, born in the church, return missionary, married in the temple. The whole nine yards. I have since resigned my membership.

John Larsen used to have a great podcast discussing the problems with Mormonism: http://johnlarsen.org/mormon-expression/

The episode discussing what it would take to actually build a transoceanic vessel in particular is probably the most well known, and really demonstrates how the BoM completely falls apart under the most basic scrutiny. http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression276.mp3

oo -- aa -- ideas -- tumblr

Hrairoo

Quote from: Damien on January 24, 2021, 01:02:44 PM
So I don't think I've ever talked about this subject on E but this seems like a good place for it. I'm a former Mormon, born in the church, return missionary, married in the temple. The whole nine yards. I have since resigned my membership.

John Larsen used to have a great podcast discussing the problems with Mormonism: http://johnlarsen.org/mormon-expression/

The episode discussing what it would take to actually build a transoceanic vessel in particular is probably the most well known, and really demonstrates how the BoM completely falls apart under the most basic scrutiny. http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression276.mp3

Oh yes! The Jaredites! Such an odd part of the Book of Mormon. This was one of my shelf items back in 2017. I remember reading the scriptures daily and coming to this part in Ether describing the vessels. Not a part of me suspected that it was untrue. But I inquired with my devout uncle about the terminology, "like a dish" because I was having trouble visualizing what this description meant. Despite my uncle being a spiritual leader to me and a source of information and knowledge, all things theology, I was blown off with a shrugged, "I don't know" as if it were unimportant and I was focusing on the wrong things.

In his library, I also read a bit of Rough Stone Rolling and Lucy Mack Smith's biography of her son, yet he is extremely devout TBM. So, looking back now, I consider his dismissal more in the vein of understanding that the Jaredite vessels and sea voyage were a logistical problem that could potentially lead folks away, and he hoped to dissuade me from delving into it deeper, in order to keep my shelf from breaking.

In my research this last summer, I remember coming upon a break down of Joseph Smith's sources for the BoM. Like, in general, the narrative of refugee Israelites who are the ancestors of the Native Americans was a hotly discussed and debated issue for Christian colonists in the 1700-1800's. But then there were side issues, wondering how they connected with the Tower of Babel because that was believed to be the origin of different languages and the Native Americans, on an "untouched" continent, had a different language. So, Joseph added in the bit about the Jaredites as an overcorrection.

If I find my source, I'll add it. I cannot remember if it was a Sandra Tanner talk or if it was the book by Fawn Brodie.

Anyway, glad to have you joining the conversation! There are a lot of us around, it seems.  :D And I'll definitely check out your links; the name Larsen doesn't sound familiar, so, I'm glad of the new material.

Oniya

Quote from: Damien on January 24, 2021, 01:02:44 PM
The episode discussing what it would take to actually build a transoceanic vessel in particular is probably the most well known, and really demonstrates how the BoM completely falls apart under the most basic scrutiny. http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/MormonExpression276.mp3

I'm assuming that there's more to the 'transoceanic vessel' than mere transport, because there have been a number of pre-industrialized cultures (the Vikings and the Polynesians), who have constructed transoceanic vessels.  I will admit that I found the linked article while looking for Kon-Tiki, but learned that Heyerdahl did a great disservice to the navigational capabilities of the island nations.
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Hrairoo

Quote from: Oniya on January 24, 2021, 01:25:16 PM
I'm assuming that there's more to the 'transoceanic vessel' than mere transport, because there have been a number of pre-industrialized cultures (the Vikings and the Polynesians), who have constructed transoceanic vessels.  I will admit that I found the linked article while looking for Kon-Tiki, but learned that Heyerdahl did a great disservice to the navigational capabilities of the island nations.

Yes. They were barges, often described as submarines.

Ether 2:16-20

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.

17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.




There were no windows in the vessels. Just a hole in the top and a hole in the bottom, in case the entire thing becomes flipped through the course of the journey(which took 344 days:verse 11). Some have hypothesized that there was some rotating layer, where the interior stayed upright, while the outside layer got turned around and stuff, like a buoy. But it was most likely that Smith did not understand the mechanics of a vessel in water, that everything inside gets tossed around if it goes upside down.

There were eight vessels to carry these people to North America, with no windows in their vessels, and not only enough food and water to tend to them for 344 days but also to take care of the livestock they brought with them. Ether 6:4. It describes it several times in these chapters in Ether as being "tight like a dish" not allowing water in, even in the tempests they suffered. So, there is no clarity on whether these barges had an above deck situation or opening situation, other than the ramp door that allowed the animals and people to get inside. So, there is no clarity on how they took care of waste, nor why the journey took so long.

Oniya

Sooooo - basically the ocean equivalent of a '50s UFO.  Gotcha.  Not that Ezekiel's 'flaming wheels with eyes on the rim' are much better in the Christian Bible, but definitely not a feasible construct in either case.  At least the Noah story was written by people who had seen boats being built.

Quote from: Hrairoo on January 24, 2021, 01:43:49 PM
So, there is no clarity on how they took care of waste, nor why the journey took so long.

Well, if there's no way of steering the thing...  ::)
"Language was invented for one reason, boys - to woo women.~*~*~Don't think it's all been done before
And in that endeavor, laziness will not do." ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think we're never gonna win this war
Robin Williams-Dead Poets Society ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~Don't think your world's gonna fall apart
I do have a cause, though.  It's obscenity.  I'm for it.  - Tom Lehrer~*~All you need is your beautiful heart
O/O's Updated 5/11/21 - A/A's - Current Status! - Writing a novel - all draws for Fool of Fire up!
Requests updated March 17

Damien

The specific podcast I was referencing was breaking down what it would take to actually build a ship like Nephi's. Spoiler: it wouldn't have been possible. The Jaredite wooden submarine is - if you can believe it - even more problematic.

oo -- aa -- ideas -- tumblr

Humble Scribe

I'm not sure why these claims are handled with any degree of seriousness. It's about as historical as Atlantis, or claiming the Pyramids were built by aliens. I feel quite sorry for the Mayans - they develop this civilisation, but somehow people can't quite believe that native American peoples could do it, and have to resort to Europeans turning up to invent everything for them.
The moving finger writes, and having writ,
Moves on:  nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

Ons and Offs

Hrairoo

Quote from: Humble Scribe on January 25, 2021, 04:30:52 PM
I'm not sure why these claims are handled with any degree of seriousness. It's about as historical as Atlantis, or claiming the Pyramids were built by aliens. I feel quite sorry for the Mayans - they develop this civilisation, but somehow people can't quite believe that native American peoples could do it, and have to resort to Europeans turning up to invent everything for them.

I'm a little confused by your post since it feels a little out of place.

What claims? Made by who?

Historical: "it" referring to the Book of Mormon?

Nobody has mentioned the Mayans. Nor did anyone talk about Europeans needing to come in and invent everything for them. It feels like there is context missing here.

And the Mayans are not related to the Book of Mormon. Some apologists today try to stretch the geography of the Book of Mormon stories because of lack of evidence found(and they also try to appropriate any indigenous artifacts found in Mesoamerica) but this is contrary to the things the prophet Joseph Smith said about the location of these historic events.

Joseph Smith found the gold plates in the Hill Cumorah in Palmyra New York. This is the location where the angel Moroni directed him to, because this was where Moroni buried the plates before his death in 421 AD. The hills and forests surrounding this hill were the locations of several battles between these ancient peoples, wherein the last white Nephite, Moroni, the last righteous man, died under the brutal savagery of the dark skinned Lamanites. There is no evidence of all the steel swords, armor, or chariot wheels or bones of humans or horses in any of this area.

Humble Scribe

'Europeans' was a bit of a provocation on my part I admit, but the Book of Mormon hypothesis is that people from Judea journeyed from the Mediterranean coast of west Asia, so certainly 'Europe-adjacent' and partaking in European Mediterranean civilisation, to the Americas some time around the time of the Babylonian conquest of Judah (~600BCE).

Again, 'Mayans' is an inference, and I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that Joseph Smith placed the Nephite civilisation "about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America, with all the cities that can be found." The cities found in that region from that period are those of the Maya and Olmecs and related groups. As more has been learned about these cultures so LDS enthusiasm for them has waned, it's true, but in the 1830s and 40s I suspect a lot of people found the contemporary archaeological discoveries that were being made in Central America thrilling proof of the story in the Book of Mormon.

Outside of the Book of Mormon, published in 1830, I know of no evidence of any pre-Viking contacts between Europe and the Americas in the Ancient period; linguistic, genetic or archaeological.

I suppose I was drawing a comparison with other works of pseudoarchaeology, such as Graham Hancock or Erich von Daniken, who tend to seize upon artifacts of real ancient civilisations (eg pyramids) as evidence of the spread of their favoured culture, often a Eurocentric one (but to be fair Gavin Menzies did it with China), to far flung parts of the world, and often carrying with it with the implicit assumption that it needed some outside civilisation to bring 'civilisation' to a more 'primitive' region. I just had it on my mind that day because I had been discussing the subject with someone else, but it was probably unfair of me to crowbar that interpretation into a discussion on Mormon archaeology and I apologise for that. However, I do find it hard to take seriously tales of vast civilisations covering the Americas, especially North America, for which no evidence exists whatsoever.

But I apologise if you feel I'm intruding into a thread primarily for present and former LDS adherents, and will happily be told to butt out.
The moving finger writes, and having writ,
Moves on:  nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

Ons and Offs

Hrairoo

No, you're not intruding at all! I just wanted to clarify what you were referring to because I was a little confused and I didn't want to respond based on incorrect assumptions. So, thank you for explaining and please, feel welcome to join in.

Quote from: Humble Scribe on January 27, 2021, 05:25:10 AM
'Europeans' was a bit of a provocation on my part I admit, but the Book of Mormon hypothesis is that people from Judea journeyed from the Mediterranean coast of west Asia, so certainly 'Europe-adjacent' and partaking in European Mediterranean civilisation, to the Americas some time around the time of the Babylonian conquest of Judah (~600BCE).

Again, 'Mayans' is an inference, and I'm happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that Joseph Smith placed the Nephite civilisation "about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America, with all the cities that can be found." The cities found in that region from that period are those of the Maya and Olmecs and related groups. As more has been learned about these cultures so LDS enthusiasm for them has waned, it's true, but in the 1830s and 40s I suspect a lot of people found the contemporary archaeological discoveries that were being made in Central America thrilling proof of the story in the Book of Mormon.

Outside of the Book of Mormon, published in 1830, I know of no evidence of any pre-Viking contacts between Europe and the Americas in the Ancient period; linguistic, genetic or archaeological.

I suppose I was drawing a comparison with other works of pseudoarchaeology, such as Graham Hancock or Erich von Daniken, who tend to seize upon artifacts of real ancient civilisations (eg pyramids) as evidence of the spread of their favoured culture, often a Eurocentric one (but to be fair Gavin Menzies did it with China), to far flung parts of the world, and often carrying with it with the implicit assumption that it needed some outside civilisation to bring 'civilisation' to a more 'primitive' region. I just had it on my mind that day because I had been discussing the subject with someone else, but it was probably unfair of me to crowbar that interpretation into a discussion on Mormon archaeology and I apologise for that. However, I do find it hard to take seriously tales of vast civilisations covering the Americas, especially North America, for which no evidence exists whatsoever.

Ah yes, I see. I'll be honest, I am only knowledgeable on Mormon scholars and archaeologists doing that sort of thing but I imagine it is pervasive, yes. As far as Joseph Smith goes and things he's recorded as saying, the further west the Mormons migrated, the more he added onto the story based on things in his environment. He told people that when he met Moroni, he was unable to retrieve the golden plates. He visited the Hill Cumorah for 7 years and was taught by the angel the histories and cultures of the BoM people. And he came away from all that teaching saying that it happened in northeastern United States region around the Finger Lakes. Anything that comes after this, God didn't go back in time and change the location of the Book of Mormon people and events. So, it's more likely Joseph adding to his story as new ideas occurred to him and opportunities presented themselves.

As for the Israelites being the descendants of the Native Americans, I agree, that is blatant European credit taking for indigenous peoples work. This stems from the legends of the Mound Builders in the early 18th and 19th century. The American colonists at the time saw these buried fortified cities and remains and assumed that there was a race of civilized, white giants who had battled with the savage Native Americans and that they were defeated, their fortified cities buried over by the "primitive" Americans. Then Joseph Smith comes out with his book "explaining it all" so it was a part of that, "huh, sophisticated structures....musta been white people" narrative. Come to find out later, Native Americans built those cities and towns themselves when they were thriving but disease, wars, and famine would force them to move out of these settlements and take up a migratory lifestyle based on the needs of having fewer people to maintain. They buried the old structures intending to go back when their numbers rejuvenated but they mostly never did.

And agreed, there is no proof of the civilizations in the BoM. The best I've seen apologists try to stretch it is that the steel swords from the many battles in the BoM where hundred thousands of people fought and died, is the discovery of the Macuahuitl. Which is weak evidence for a battle described using medieval and Romanesque weaponry like chariots, steel swords, armor, and bows. You'd think that's something God would iron out during the translation process. "They used steel swords...er, I meant, clubs with sharp obsidian stones attached to them."