DnD 3.5 Unlimited: Legendary Monsters Recruitment part2!

[Kunoichi]

I've been busy as well, unfortunately, and now my internet's out.

That said, if you'd like to be a legendary thief, there is a type of creature called a Void Walker that has the ability to become invisible at-will as a free action. Tack on Vecna-blooded from the Monster Manual IV for your acquired template for the immunity to divination effects and it wouldn't be hard to make yourself pretty much completely undetectable.

If you're set on being a Doppelganger, something like the dark creature or shadow creature templates would give you hide in plain sight, which could also be helpful, and then your final template would probably be best chosen to help out with your stat-line.

If you can get access to the PHBII, the Beguiler class might be one good class option, being a rogue-like class with access to some good illusion and enchantment spells.  That's a suggestion for the mystical side of your build, and for the physical side, there are a pretty large variety of different classes and prestige classes that could be fitting.

Any specific thoughts about how your character would typically go about her thievery? Sneaking, murder, social manipulation? Some mixture of the three or some other method entirely? I could look through the books and see if I can find anything useful or fun, but there are enough books that having it narrowed down a little would help.

[PaleEnchantress]

Ive been busy too and between my busy and Zaer's busy my creativity is dying. The pace is crawling.


Wasn't spellthief redesigned for our game? I'm mentioning it because I feel the legendary monster thief should be able to steal things that aren't tangible.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Spellthief was indeed edited and become a 'shinobi' (combine ninja and spellthief classes together). Spellthief can steal spells, spell-alikes and such at higher levels.

[Phaia]

Sorry, been busy myself past days (and also expected Kunoichi or someone to comment your build before I did).

The concept (of a ultimate doppleganger rogue) is workable and okay. However I am not sure is there monster or template which adds further luck bonus besides one already provided by the luck bonus. Also your doppi gets paragon creature template which comes with hefty SR already (actually best one so far as I know). Psi defenses I assume somesort defense against psychic powers? It's possible but I think there is no universal immunity to psionics (but there are means to become immune mind-affecting abilities). Also there is phrenic creature template which gives you bunch of psionic powers. Being absolutely undetectable would mean combination of templates and probably class feature or item. I myself know a item which makes you completetly undetected via divinations.

What comes to perfection key, it can be taken as one your starting rewards (and what I can see the artifact is okay; simply key which absolutely perfectly opens any door with a lock).

It's okay I am just overwhelmed a bit by all of this. I have done a geslalt before but nothing like this nor had any character get close to the ones I am seeing. Geez a +50 to hit is crazy. I had read there was a CR limit of 13? If so doesn't Paragon go above that just to start.  I am very open to ideas about the character. since I tryed to make my concept a bit general.

I've been busy as well, unfortunately, and now my internet's out.

That said, if you'd like to be a legendary thief, there is a type of creature called a Void Walker that has the ability to become invisible at-will as a free action. Tack on Vecna-blooded from the Monster Manual IV for your acquired template for the immunity to divination effects and it wouldn't be hard to make yourself pretty much completely undetectable.

If you're set on being a Doppelganger, something like the dark creature or shadow creature templates would give you hide in plain sight, which could also be helpful, and then your final template would probably be best chosen to help out with your stat-line.

If you can get access to the PHBII, the Beguiler class might be one good class option, being a rogue-like class with access to some good illusion and enchantment spells.  That's a suggestion for the mystical side of your build, and for the physical side, there are a pretty large variety of different classes and prestige classes that could be fitting.

Any specific thoughts about how your character would typically go about her thievery? Sneaking, murder, social manipulation? Some mixture of the three or some other method entirely? I could look through the books and see if I can find anything useful or fun, but there are enough books that having it narrowed down a little would help.

Yes My idea was for an legendary thief. I choose a doppleganger for the idea of stealing identities and taking everything, often not killing but instead leaving the one behind to take the fall. But also sneaking, murder when needed since that steals a life. She focused on taking wishes and sometimes luck [hard to do I know just for color]. I had thought about having her be half janni with a female aspect but able to shapeshift into any medium form.

She became such a good thief she tryed to steal the knowledge about her from the universe. Her greatest caper was taking the Perfection Key from Ao himself [or some other main god] and opening locks that may not have been meant to be open at that time. Yes I know that artifact doesn't have all that much punch in the scheme of things but it opens any lock which in itself is very very amazing.

I am open to ideas on how to build her/it. I was trying not to mix to many racial themeplates  to avoid such a mongrel that It would be difficult to roleplay.

Phaia

[PaleEnchantress]

It's worth restating that what you use to make your character need not keep the same flavor text. If it fits your concept mechanically use it and describe it differently. Templates especially.

[Kunoichi]

It's okay I am just overwhelmed a bit by all of this. I have done a geslalt before but nothing like this nor had any character get close to the ones I am seeing. Geez a +50 to hit is crazy. I had read there was a CR limit of 13? If so doesn't Paragon go above that just to start.  I am very open to ideas about the character. since I tryed to make my concept a bit general.

The Paragon Creature template is free, and is something added on in addition to your standard CR/ECL limits.  And this game is a bit different from standard gestalt.  Rather than advancing in two classes at once, in this one you get to advance in three at once.  It's basically a game where you get to play a character who's incredibly powerful, though there are also some extra restrictions to test your skill at building a character, as well.

Yes My idea was for an legendary thief. I choose a doppleganger for the idea of stealing identities and taking everything, often not killing but instead leaving the one behind to take the fall. But also sneaking, murder when needed since that steals a life. She focused on taking wishes and sometimes luck [hard to do I know just for color]. I had thought about having her be half janni with a female aspect but able to shapeshift into any medium form.

She became such a good thief she tryed to steal the knowledge about her from the universe. Her greatest caper was taking the Perfection Key from Ao himself [or some other main god] and opening locks that may not have been meant to be open at that time. Yes I know that artifact doesn't have all that much punch in the scheme of things but it opens any lock which in itself is very very amazing.

I am open to ideas on how to build her/it. I was trying not to mix to many racial themeplates  to avoid such a mongrel that It would be difficult to roleplay.

Phaia

The Doppelganger certainly does seem to be one of the better options available for what you want to do.  The flavor about having tried to steal all knowledge of yourself from the universe actually sounds pretty similar to the Vecna-Blooded template I mentioned before (which it turns out is actually in the Monster Manual V, on or close to page 65).  Although, since that's +1 LA and an acquired template that doesn't give you any stat bonuses, you might want to see about picking it up during play, instead.

If you'd like the ability to be able to more convincingly act the part of a member of any class, the Chameleon prestige class might be worth looking into.  If you see your character as more relying on a good disguise and social skills, instead, the Bard or Beguiler base classes might be a better fit, instead.  Especially the Bard, since it turns out that a lot of the more commonly-available templates tend to pump up Charisma over most other ability scores.

...Actually, working out which classes you want to take for your build should help overall, since then we can pick out some templates for you that synergize well with your abilities.  And then, as Pale said, whatever templates you do wind up taking can be reflavored into something more fitting for your overall concept.

[PaleEnchantress]

If you go chameleon you can do what Anastaz did and take improved spell capacity as your epic feat.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Yeah, CR 13 is the limit in regards what base monster/templates you get in char gen. But once char gen is done your actual CR is 33 (so as paragon creature SR is based on CR + 25 so your SR should be 58 after char gen).

Also Kunoichi is correct that Vecna-Blooded would fit in regards being universally anynymous (nobody knows nothing about you and any divinations flat out fail). However it gives no stat boosts and is +1 and takes acquired or inherited template part in your build (so it's better take it potentially after char gen as you may quickly get a level up and thus acquire the template). Also Pale is correct that despite what templates/base creature you are, you can designate your appearance and origin however you like. Example you could take doppleganger as base creature but instead just being 'born doppleganger' you could dictate that a some god formed you from clay instead and breathed life into you (and thus ability to shapeshift comes from the fact your origin lays that you were made from clay).

Anycase doppleganger is CR 3, 4 HD creature and we base cost of base creature based highest between CR or HD (not LA at all, LA is only used with templates) so it costs '4 levels' in your monster progression to be doppleganger. Leaving you +9 levels to fill with templates.

Now, example vampire is +8 template and would take huge chunk out from your monster side (vampire condittion is inherited template always). So leaving +1 level for +1 LA templates like vecna blooded or dark creature (either one can be inherited, vecna blooded is usually granted by a deity to someone but you can have been granted it since birth) to able hide in plain sight while in darkness/shadow. Also being a vampire would fit for 'stealing life' from others. Also any PrC's which are considered monster PrC's or monster progression (like master vampire) can be taken to monster side.

Also if wanting to mimic any class, Chameleon is very good choice and with paragon creature you get one free feat which can be regular or epic one (if you qualify for said feat). The creation process is intense, but premise of the game is to play super powerful entity in cosmic scale, so those who get through the intense and demanding chargen process are auto included :).

[towerhouse]

Does anyone know of Angel type that has CR 10 or lower.  Except Archon hound.

[Kunoichi]

When you say Angel type, do you mean celestials in general, or creatures with the actual Angel creature traits? I believe there are some Devas in the Fiend Folio that might fit your needs for the latter, and I'll have to take my time to look through the books for some other options if you want the former.

Edit: And now that I'm home, the Movanic Deva from the Fiend Folio is CR 9 and has 6 HD.

If you just want any celestial, the Book of Exalted Deeds should have quite a few that fit in terms of CR, and the regular Monster Manual also has the Bralani Eladrin, which is both CR and HD 6.  Complete Psionic has the Sibyllic Guardian if you want to be a psionic angel, and the Tome of Magic has the Word Archon if you want to get into Truenaming.

[towerhouse]

Thanks.  I looked at them and the Movanic Deva looks promising.

The concept I have is a "corrupted" angel.  Rather than making her evil (too easy), her captors did experiments on her to make her a half flesh golem.  The flesh they used were those of corrupted souls, and they changed her from a tomboyish look into a that of a voluptuous slut.  She is still good, but her new body parts give her uncontrolled urges.

[Zaer Darkwail]

If go for corrupted angel there is Radiant Idol from Sharn: City of Towers at 11 HD and CR 11. However it has no angel subtype on it (but if get template which gives you angel subtype you can have it then).

[Kunoichi]

Radiant Idol is more of a 'fallen angel that was stripped of its wings and decided to start up a cult dedicated to worshiping it as a deity' type of monster.  Movanic Deva also gives you more room to work with for template purposes.

Now then, let's see what we can work with in terms of realizing your character concept...

There is an actual half-golem template which I suspect you've already seen, but it doesn't really look like a very good template for anything other than a melee bruiser type, considering all the mental penalties it will hit you with.  Your highest base racial stats as a Movanic Deva are Dexterity and Charisma, so it seems like the template and the base race will be working at cross purposes to one another if you take this choice.

Dragon Magazine #355 has a variant half-fiend template called the Alu-Demon written up on page 10. It's supposed to represent a character who's half-succubus, but it probably wouldn't be hard to reflavor for your needs. It offers good bonuses to Dexterity and Charisma, too, so it complements your base race well. +4 LA.

Pseudonatural Creature would be +2 LA and would give you a tentacular alternate form and a free-action True Strike as a special attack.  That one can be found in Complete Arcane, Manual of the Planes, and a few other sources.

Chameleon Creature from Underdark is +1 LA and would give you a few racial bonuses to stealth skills, a climb speed, and a 10-foot tongue attack, which could lead to some fun roleplaying.

As another option for having had more monstrous bits grafted onto you, one of the printed versions of the Half-Illithid template can be applied to any creature type, granting you tentacles, brain-eating, and a few psionic abilities for LA +5.

As far as acquired templates for this game go, one of the homebrew templates we're using in this game is an outsider version of the Evolved Undead template.  You could even just fill out the rest of your monster progression with levels of Evolved Outsider, if you wanted to.  It would give you a bunch of spell-like abilities and a big boost to your Strength and Charisma scores.

I think that taking the Alu-Demon template would probably be one of the better fits for what you'd like to do, along with maybe using your starting gift on +1 extra level and taking a level of Evolved Outsider for maximum Charisma boost.  It would give you all the mechanical abilities you'd need to reflect a goodly angel who was tainted with evil. ^^

[PaleEnchantress]

I'm still concerned about Sears sporadic posting schedule. A larger workload seems like it would just make things more difficult for him

[towerhouse]

The suggestion with the Alu Demon is good.  I was going originally with iaijutsu master so the charisma hit is a big one if I go that route.

The one thing I liked about golem and eidolon is the magic immunity.  Is it just not as powerful as I think it is? 

[TheGlyphstone]

The thing with Spell Immunity is that it only works against things with Spell Resistance: Yes. There are lots of attack spells with SR: No, which would bypass it, and more importantly, it means you are also immune to beneficial buff spells, which could turn out to be a big problem. Regular SR you can suppress with a standard action, letting your friends or minions buff you before you resume it, but Immunity is always-on.

[towerhouse]

From the description of magic immunity, I thought it includes supernatural powers like dragon breath, but reading some threads on internet, I think it was changed to only spells that can be SR'd.

[TheGlyphstone]

Possibly it was that way in 3.0 or earlier. But from 3.5 onward, it only stopped spells that allow SR. You can check the SRD if you're uncertain.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Yeah, supernatural attacks go through anything (spells which block force spells are ignored by supernatural magic missile because it's not a spell). Only outright immunities to specific type of element/attack type (like mind-affecting effects) block them.

[Phaia]

Twice Forgotten

She has no real memories of who was before. Bits and pieces, fragments of words and sounds and images that have given her a general image of what she may have been. This she knows. She was one of the earliest to walk in the world. She was a mortal and she strove to gain power and immortality. She was not nice and she thinks she may have even sacrificed a daughter to try and stay young. Much more then that is lost to her. What ever she did too piss off a god or the gods she has no idea. Their punishment she does know and remember.

  A statue was formed and her shattered essence was poured within. Added was clay and various other items that gave her life. The statue was on a magic pedestal in some grand city. The pedestal shape shifted her form often to the amusement of the denizens of the city. What was worst was all knowledge of who she had been was erased from the cosmos. There she stood alive within a prison of the finest marble, regaining a sense of self, shifting forms, imprisoned, watching as years passed. Decades. Centuries. But in the mortal world nothing lasts forever and she watched as the city fell. How it fell? She is not really sure. There was a war yes and death. It was the great shaking though that freed her. The city crumbled and the pedestal shattered and she fell to the ground.

  That first real breath was filled with smoke and ash and fowl odors yet it was the sweetest breath she ever took for it was a breath of freedom. She found herself in a ruined city filled with monsters and all matter of creatures and then discovered the unintended gift the gods had given her. She could shape-shift into any small or even medium humanoid being. Doing just that she blended in and used her mind to learn the languages spoken.

  She swore she would never be imprisoned like that again and so she learned the skills of a rogue, a thief. Yet there was a deep almost obsession in her about wishes. She stole them. She knew exactly how to use them, how to make sure the effects worked. She knew the differences between a wish spell from a powerful wizard and a wish from a being like a djinn and even a god wish. As she grew in ability she stole wishes using her shape-shifting and her mind reading to gain advantages where needed. She then began to steel the essence and abilities and traits of other beings.
A prodigy, a half janni, a half fey, she picked and choose where to use those wishes she had.

  Perhaps one her best steals was from a powerful wizard/smith that had two beautiful twin daughters. For them he began to forge matching luck blades filled with powerful wishes. She replaced one of the daughters, stole that sword, used her skills to make the sister attack and then stole her sword as well...leaving the twins to kill each other. She named the blades 'The sister swords' and used their wishes and others to add to their power.

  The years passed and she found she did not age...another gift unintended from the gods...she grew in skill. Learned to use magic. Was everything from a tavern wench to a King, from a slave to a slaver master. She had many lovers. She killed and she saved and in all that time in all those shapes the one things he could not do for some reason was have a child of her own. She felt the need to protect the orphans and over the years there arose the myth of the godmother, protector of lost children. Avenger if need be.

  She found an artifact called the "Perfection's Key", as well as a way to again hide knowledge of her. With that she stole into Ao's own palace and opened his vault. Caught there before she could escape she was imprisoned with monster's since Ao deeded her a bit to dangerous with her skills and the wish bound Key. She had learned much and in that prison she stayed low and watched...stealling from the monsters themselves... she herself never thought of her as a monster.

  She finally gave herself...her true shape a name...a simple "Me" was what she called her self for she had many many names she could use.



This is the basic idea for my character. I have not really decided if she has a real name!

So if I understand this right the monster build should go like this:
Doppelganger  CR = 3/ LA +4
Draconic Creature CR= Base +1/ LA +1
Prodigy CR 11 HD = Base +3/ LA +3
Half Celestial CR = Base +1/ LA +1
Half-Janni CR = Base +1/ LA +1
Spellwarped CR = Base +2/ LA +3
Shar-Kissed CR =Base +2/ LA +2

If i am right here 'Me' would have a monster CR of 13 and a LA of 15???
Is that right so far?

I am looking at rogue/ Hexblade and the Chameleon prestige class.
So I need help working up the details...I have been wading through stuff working out how this all works. It is very fasicanting.
As some extra info, 'Me' will probably be Chaotic Neutral and can work as a spy/scout/identity thief!!

Phaia

[PhantomPistoleer]

Question:  How do you create a dragon?

Phantom's thoughts on the subject after perusing the rules:

Step 1:  Select a dragon.
Step 2:  Apply very old age attributes.
Step 3:  Then apply paragon template.
Step 4:  Dragon has been made?
Step 5:  If you opt to make a LVL 14 character, what happens to the race side?  Do you just add a +1 template or prestige?

Second question:  does the character retain its physical ability scores in its alternate humanoid form?

[Lockepick]

@Phaia: Your base creature is the higher of HD or CR, so Doppleganger would be 4 (HD 4, CR 3). Then for templates, you add all the +LAs together. Which means the thing you designed would be 'Level 15' total.

I'd also note that two of your templates are homebrews, not sure what the GM's ruling is on those.

[towerhouse]

I'm still trying to understand how you got +31 charisma.  Can someone break it down for me?  Also, I assume we are using the CR for determining the racial hit dice.  Not HD + ECL which would be 13.

Is limit 14th level or 13th level now? 

[TheGlyphstone]

13, but your bonus starting gift can be spent on an extra level.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Phaia: You can work only with base race, then one inherited (born) template and one gained (like vampire, afflicted lycantrophy) template in total. So total 2 templates max besides base race. What comes to listed templates; Prodigy and Shar-Kissed are not allowed (nor I approve of at this time as if I approve homebrew stuff which are not made by me in the game it opens can of worms which I do not want unleash :P). But besides that char name indeed can be Twice Forgotten (one char is called Thrice-Betrayed Knight). The legend title itself can be true name of the legendary monster than simply 'Bob' or such :P.

PhantomPistoleer: The dragons are done entirely by CR calculation based (we got one dragon already; a half-red and half-silver one). You start off with CR 21 dragon where you add a paragon creature template stuff in. Your CR will be 34 for SR calculations and such (from paragon creature). You can reduce this CR to get more levels to play with (for PrC's or templates with LA etc). Minimum limit is young adult (CR 13 base dragon). As mentioned one gift freebies is +1 level up, so can add +1 more CR to your dragon or get +1 template (as unlike other legendary monsters your not gestalt anyway).

For further rules for chargen can be found in here.