Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.

Started by Formless, September 07, 2013, 12:16:50 PM

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Formless

Quote from: Evergreen on March 25, 2017, 12:23:05 PM
Thanks a lot for this detailed explanation! The story with the three angles sounds rather interesting.

One more thing. If for example me (I'm a lesbian) and my girlfriend would move to Iran or any other Muslim country which condemns homosexuals. Would we be killed?
You're welcome.

Though I do not have the capability to answer this question. As Skynet mentioned, the punishments vary.

In my country, Saudi Arabia, it is punishable by death. But there hasn't been such a case in almost 20 years.

There is homosexuality in my country, discreet, yet still exist, and perhaps their discretion is what keeps them safe? I honestly don't know. When Gay marriage was legalized in the US, Saudis wore the rainbow colors in their social medias, and no one was charged or arrested.

So I cannot answer such a question.

Evergreen

Thanks for the answers and the elaboration! I can just say, Thank god I was not born in a Muslim country.

Also, maybe Europe or the US could offer help to homosexuals born in Islam. Maybe take in gay people as refugees? Similar to the war refuges. I mean, honestly. Why would any gay want to live in such a cruel country?
o/o

Lustful Bride

So this is going to sound like a dumb question but lately with the sudden drive to begin the colonization of Mars and for Man to begin expanding off of Earth I had a thought.

How will Prayers among Muslims be affected should they decide to leave Earth? Has anyone ever given thought to such a thing? Since you must pray towards Mecca right? So...on another world like Mars or Luna, that would be difficult.

Again sorry if its like an odd question but I was honestly curious as to how that might work.

Kaspider

Good question. But the world is sadly ending. With all the earthquakes and other signs (dumb leaders), these times are going towards the end of time so I doubt very much if humanity should be moving to Mars.

Even if they did, I guess they would have to improvise or something like even here on this earth, if you are lost in a desert a jungle and you can't figure out which direction Mecca is and the time is running out, all you have to do is find a clear spot and pray.
I don't see the future. I don't worry about the past. Now's all I have.


Formless

Quote from: niinja on March 26, 2017, 04:45:56 AM
Even if they did, I guess they would have to improvise or something like even here on this earth, if you are lost in a desert a jungle and you can't figure out which direction Mecca is and the time is running out, all you have to do is find a clear spot and pray.

Exactly this. When in doubt, do your best.

I have no doubt though, that in time, there will be easier methods to pinpoint any location on earth from space. This is assuming once space travel becomes very frequent.

Another interesting question I have yet to answer is if a Muslim was in a space shuttle of some sort, it was prayer time, but they're still in zero gravity. How's praying going to happen? ::)

midnightblack

Well, all things must keep on with the times, if they wish to survive. I'm guessing that keeping faith alive in spirit & meaning in conditions that are radically different from those in which it originated should be more important to a believer than adhering to some strict details regarding rituals & practice. Then again, for your specific problem I guess that a strong magnetic field and some magnetic padding on your legs might solve the ritual issue.
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Formless

Quote from: midnightblack on March 26, 2017, 08:22:24 AM
Well, all things must keep on with the times, if they wish to survive. I'm guessing that keeping faith alive in spirit & meaning in conditions that are radically different from those in which it originated should be more important to a believer than adhering to some strict details regarding rituals & practice. Then again, for your specific problem I guess that a strong magnetic field and some magnetic padding on your legs might solve the ritual issue.

That could work. ;D

Oniya

Quote from: midnightblack on March 26, 2017, 08:22:24 AMThen again, for your specific problem I guess that a strong magnetic field and some magnetic padding on your legs might solve the ritual issue.

Or Velcro.  Doesn't interfere with instrumentation.
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midnightblack

Yes! That's even better, but I had no idea how it's called in English. -.-
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Formless

Quote from: Oniya on March 26, 2017, 12:40:48 PM
Or Velcro.  Doesn't interfere with instrumentation.

Probably on the shoes' soles, and the knees, given how some motions during the prayer breaks the contact between the feet and the ground.

Nimbuscloud

I'm an atheist, I'd consider myself an anti-theist, someone who actively thinks major religion is a bad thing in the world today, and wants to see it done away with.

I live in America, and my position is held only a very small portion, of a very small portion of the population here, I think most atheist don't really have a problem with other people being religious, if that's any comfort.  I was very interested to read in passing that you are from Saudi Arabia, and I like the way you wrote when you introduced the thread.  It's nice to have a real example of someone to inject some humanity into the term "Muslim" the news has been throwing around so much here recently.

I hate the concept of religion, and even people who are religious moderates make me sad for them.  You have to understand from my perspective it's a lot like being a prisoner in a cage you don't know you're in.  But it does make some people happy, that is undeniable, and if they don't impose their beliefs on other people, I have very little problem with them practicing their faith.  When it comes up it nags at the back of my mind... but if you can deal with me thinking you're wrong, I can deal with you believing whatever you want.  At the end of the day, if we're just hanging out, doing what we do I don't think about it at all, and I think that's a beautiful idea, the common humanity that we share.

I don't want to ramble too much, I just wanted to introduce myself.  I might lurk around here for a while.

Formless

Welcome to the thread, Nimbuscloud. :-)

Quote from: Nimbuscloud on April 15, 2017, 03:18:44 AM
I hate the concept of religion, and even people who are religious moderates make me sad for them.

I quoted this part, because I don't think anyone who choose to believe or not believe in any religion, faith or concept, deserves to be looked at from that perspective.

Religion is one method to spirituality. How one chooses to practice it, might put them in that 'caged perspective' you mentioned.

Don't be sad for me, as I am not sad for you for choosing how you live your life. :-)

Nimbuscloud

I can't help it.  It comes from a place of empathy.  I wouldn't want that for me, so I don't want it for other people.  I'm not saying you should be sad or anything like that.  That's just my knee-jerk reaction.  I don't choose to believe that, I just kind of feel it, that's my default, if you will.  I know it's an insignificant concern in the long run, but I worry about tons of things that are even more trifling every day. xD  It's not the sort of thing that keeps me up at night.

Prosak

Quote from: Formless on March 26, 2017, 07:27:08 AM
Exactly this. When in doubt, do your best.

I have no doubt though, that in time, there will be easier methods to pinpoint any location on earth from space. This is assuming once space travel becomes very frequent.

Another interesting question I have yet to answer is if a Muslim was in a space shuttle of some sort, it was prayer time, but they're still in zero gravity. How's praying going to happen? ::)

Designated prayer room in the ship that straps them in a prayer position? I don't know, lol.

@Nimbus+Formless: Also, Nimbuscloud. I think it actually is ok to feel sorry for some peoples ideologies sometimes it just depends on the thing. If we are talking choice of religion, political party etc then you shouldn't feel sorry since there is no clear right or wrong answer. But in other cases, as a christian myself I personally feel sorry for New Earth Christians for actually believing the earth is just 10 thousand years old. (As that is a purely delusional position.) I also feel sorry for Muslims who take the darker verses of the Quran to seriously, or the weak willed individual's charmed and or indoctrinated by their violent ideas, becoming the radical Jihadist's we see on the news. No one should be frowned upon or felt sorry for because they reject the ideas of say, feminism. But people should be rejected if they are a neo Nazi, Jihadist, etc. And when I say 'feel sorry for' towards Nazi's and Jihadist's, do not confuse this with any kind of sympathy for them or their actions against the well being of others. What I mean is I am sorry people can be so dumb, sorry they were pulled into this position where they believe hurting others is justified in the end. So it really depends on the thing your sorry about.

HannibalBarca

I'm an anti-theist atheist, but a caveat goes with that.  I don't feel the need to push for prohibition of beliefs or religious organizations, only the prevention of any religion from gaining a monopoly on the marketplace of ideas.  I've studied religion heavily since my mid teens (48 now), and I much prefer a rational, moderated discussion to any denunciations.  We are human, fallible, and seek beneficial lives for the vast majority of us.  I think that a lack of empathy or emotional intelligence tends to lead to much of the misunderstandings and hatred that exist in the world.  I worry less about the specific teachings of any religion, but the rigidity or unwillingness to examine and accept new data or perspectives, which tends to be a problem with the more conservative or traditionalist members of any belief system.  More moderate or liberal perspectives, regardless of the religion, tend to be less problematic.  Of course, from my view, relegating all religion to an outdated past and adopting a humanist perspective is the best outcome, but I want people to come to that viewpoint naturally, due to their examination of their own and others' lives.  If people retain their religious beliefs, but live a kind, meaningful life that promotes the welfare of all humanity, so be it.

I do, however, find Islam an intriguing belief system, partly due to its history.  I hear many people say it has never had a Reformation, but that concept is rather Christian-centric.  Culture does have its affect on a religion, and Muslims from Morocco do differ in many ways from Muslims who live in Indonesia.  I don't know if there is as great a difference in doctrine from one end of Islam to the other, however, compared to, say, Hinduism or Christianity.  Perhaps it is a function of its younger age as a belief system.  There is a certain amount of cultural drift there, but Islam seems to have more thorough, firmly-rooted foundational beliefs than most other religions, and that may prevent a greater evolution from its original form like you see in Christianity.
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Formless

Quote from: HannibalBarca on April 21, 2017, 09:21:51 PM
I'm an anti-theist atheist, but a caveat goes with that.  I don't feel the need to push for prohibition of beliefs or religious organizations, only the prevention of any religion from gaining a monopoly on the marketplace of ideas.  I've studied religion heavily since my mid teens (48 now), and I much prefer a rational, moderated discussion to any denunciations.  We are human, fallible, and seek beneficial lives for the vast majority of us.  I think that a lack of empathy or emotional intelligence tends to lead to much of the misunderstandings and hatred that exist in the world.  I worry less about the specific teachings of any religion, but the rigidity or unwillingness to examine and accept new data or perspectives, which tends to be a problem with the more conservative or traditionalist members of any belief system.  More moderate or liberal perspectives, regardless of the religion, tend to be less problematic.  Of course, from my view, relegating all religion to an outdated past and adopting a humanist perspective is the best outcome, but I want people to come to that viewpoint naturally, due to their examination of their own and others' lives.  If people retain their religious beliefs, but live a kind, meaningful life that promotes the welfare of all humanity, so be it.

Showing empathy to someone who lost their path is human. Regardless of what religion they believe in, if they stray down a toxic path, they deserve such empathy.

My previous comment was due to how some may see the belief in religion as a defect to human's nature. It is not. Though the majority around the world, those who either posses the authority to display their religion, or those under the focused scope of the media, do more wrong to their own beliefs and its followers, due to how they present themselves. From monarchs to radicals.

The way I see it, religion doesn't have a place in politics, which is the cause of most negativity in this world. Religion, as I said before, is a personal identity, a key to inner peace. Waving it around like its some kind of VIP pass is the first step to deteriorating social harmony.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Quote from: HannibalBarca on April 21, 2017, 09:21:51 PM
I do, however, find Islam an intriguing belief system, partly due to its history.  I hear many people say it has never had a Reformation, but that concept is rather Christian-centric.  Culture does have its affect on a religion, and Muslims from Morocco do differ in many ways from Muslims who live in Indonesia.  I don't know if there is as great a difference in doctrine from one end of Islam to the other, however, compared to, say, Hinduism or Christianity.  Perhaps it is a function of its younger age as a belief system.  There is a certain amount of cultural drift there, but Islam seems to have more thorough, firmly-rooted foundational beliefs than most other religions, and that may prevent a greater evolution from its original form like you see in Christianity.

You're absolutely right in that observation. It is more about how each culture adapted to the Islamic teachings.

A prime example would be the Hijab. You would rarely see a woman from Saudi Arabia wearing it. Yet it is worn by women from all over the Islamic world. The basic fundamentals are undisputed across the Islamic world, but subtle differences can be found. And these differences grow more stark with each different sect.

Besides, I think Islam doesn't change too easily due to its Holy Book. It hasn't been altered (According to every scholar) since it was completed over 1400 years ago. Its a single book, passed down from generation to generation, with the same verses, the same words and the same meanings. (And there in lies the bane to it. As radicals choose specific verses to emulate the struggle of a prophet who lived in a different era.)

But with the way the world is now. Change is eminent, for better or worse.

TheGlyphstone

I do sometimes wonder what modern Christianity would be like if it had retained Biblical Hebrew as a liturgical language the way Judaism did, instead of having its own holy book repeatedly translated from Hebrew into Latin into English, being editorialized each time.

Kythia

Hebrew was never a (or "the main" at least) liturgical language for Christianity.  Don't forget the new testament was written in Greek (and we have a pretty good idea what the text of it was) and the early Christian church used the Septuagint as its OT, again Greek.

That said, it is interesting to look at the different attitudes to the Holy Books.  The Catholic Church didn't even bother officially stating what was in the Bible until the 1500s because it just didn't seem overly important and even to this day different denominations don't agree on what books should be included whereas the Koran is far more...solidified?  Non-protestant churches even have huge swathes of dogma that either are from books that they didn't include in the canon (things like the Bodily Assumption of Mary in Catholicism) or just plain aren't in the Bible at all (clerical celibacy is pretty much anti-biblical in fact).  Non-Protestant Christianity just isn't derived from the Bible to the same extent Islam is from the Koran.  Sticking to the Bible alone would prooobaaably get you closer to Messianic Judaism than anything we'd particularly identify as Christian.
242037

TheGlyphstone

Right, my error there. I knew the Old Testament was in Hebrew, though I had forgotten than even it went through an additional translation step into Greek.

Trigon

Quote from: Kythia on April 22, 2017, 12:05:21 PM
That said, it is interesting to look at the different attitudes to the Holy Books.  The Catholic Church didn't even bother officially stating what was in the Bible until the 1500s because it just didn't seem overly important and even to this day different denominations don't agree on what books should be included whereas the Koran is far more...solidified?  Non-protestant churches even have huge swathes of dogma that either are from books that they didn't include in the canon (things like the Bodily Assumption of Mary in Catholicism) or just plain aren't in the Bible at all (clerical celibacy is pretty much anti-biblical in fact).  Non-Protestant Christianity just isn't derived from the Bible to the same extent Islam is from the Koran.  Sticking to the Bible alone would prooobaaably get you closer to Messianic Judaism than anything we'd particularly identify as Christian.

I think the reasons for the difference in attitudes have much less to do with how "solidified" the texts are, and more to do with the fact that the Bible has had several different authors spanning over a period of at least several centuries. Whereas the Quran was probably compiled by a single individual, or a group of people, over a period of a few decades, so there would probably be less doubt as to the authenticity of the chapters/verses (and consequently it would have been easier to decide what should and should not be included in its text).

Formless

Quote from: Trevino on April 23, 2017, 10:23:14 AM
I think the reasons for the difference in attitudes have much less to do with how "solidified" the texts are, and more to do with the fact that the Bible has had several different authors spanning over a period of at least several centuries. Whereas the Quran was probably compiled by a single individual, or a group of people, over a period of a few decades, so there would probably be less doubt as to the authenticity of the chapters/verses (and consequently it would have been easier to decide what should and should not be included in its text).

I looked through the thread to find if I provided how the Qur'an was preserved, but I guess I never wrote it.

When Mohammad received the verses from Gabriel, he used to recite them to his followers. And those close followers memorized them to heart. It wasn't written as far as I know.

Now, when Mohammad passed away, and the Caliphats started, the armies were set to spread the religion, and so many of the people who memorized the Qur'an, died in battle. When it was Othman's rule, he took note of it, and ordered to preserve the Qur'an in texts. Thus writing the first copy of the holy book.

They say ever since, it was the same copy passed down through the generations.

However, The Arabic writing went through many stages from the days before Islam existed, until the modern day.

Now, I do not possess the capability to explain it. And I surfed the internet trying to find an English website that can provide said history of the many stages of evolution of Arabic writing.

Why do I mention this? Because for someone born at this day and age, it is quite impossible to read a text written at the time where the Qur'an was written. Back then, it was scriptures without any of the identifying markings that allows you to know which letter is which.

Perhaps someone versed in linguistics can explain it better.

Skynet

I get the feeling that it may have been asked before, but...in Islamic theology, are angels self-aware?

I recall hearing that unlike the Christian interpretation, angels cannot rebel against God because they are designed to do his will. Whereas humans and djinn have the choice to reject or accept (I don't know where that puts animals, plants, and other living beings).

I recall hearing a comparison of imagining God as a computer technician, where angels are programs designed to perform code. They can act autonomously, but will not do anything that they were not programmed to do.

Which leads me to ask how apt this comparison is. Are angels more akin to an AI which can interact but do not have "true" intelligence? Or are they fully self-aware and intelligent, but cannot fathom thoughts and actions on their part in going against's God's orders?

Formless

It is only implied through Lucifer's (Satan's) story with God in the Qur'an that he was an angel who rebelled against god. Which makes me think that Angels are creatures of light (As indicated in the Qur'an) which have free will.

If I'd expand the scope past the Qur'an, there's been a couple of Hadiths that spoke of Gabriel pleading to god to ease some of the Muslims' suffering during their battles against Quraish. If its true, they they do possess free will, they're just extremely loyal.

Kaspider

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

That's 2:30. That shows that the angels can speak and think and are self aware but obviously they are innocent and always praising the Lord.
I don't see the future. I don't worry about the past. Now's all I have.


ZephyrInk

Quote from: Formless on March 26, 2017, 07:27:08 AM
Another interesting question I have yet to answer is if a Muslim was in a space shuttle of some sort, it was prayer time, but they're still in zero gravity. How's praying going to happen? ::)

Not sure if this helps, but it is worth a watch! : )

Praying in Space