Man snaps sixteen month old daughter spine in two.

[Glossolalia]

I have no words

If I say words, I may say things I regret. That man, is... ARGH.

[Inkidu]

And people say weed is harmless. "It's just some hash man.". Forget that.

[Glossolalia]

And people say weed is harmless. "It's just some hash man.". Forget that.

Actually that part of the article bothered me. Media bias, really gets me.

[Inkidu]

Actually that part of the article bothered me. Media bias, really gets me.

The problem is people think weed is so harmless and then something like this happens. He might have done it without the weed, but I really, honestly doubt it.

[Glossolalia]

I... really?

I respect your opinion, but seriously, weed relaxes most people.

[Rhapsody]

And people say weed is harmless. "It's just some hash man.". Forget that.

Weed is harmless in many circumstances.  In fact, it has some pretty nice health benefits, and studies have shown that over and over again.  But whatever, everyone has their own opinion about it.

But most importantly?  Do not blame marijuana for this guy's cruelty and abhorrent child abuse.  He was obviously screwed up to begin with, and emphasizing the fact that he smoked pot is just making excuses for his ugly, horrific, disgusting and frankly antisocial behaviour.

The problem is people think weed is so harmless and then something like this happens. He might have done it without the weed, but I really, honestly doubt it.

Have you ever smoked pot? Obviously not.   

I have.  Weed doesn't make you violent. 

Being a complete waste of skin assholw who thinks it's awesome to beat up on an infant makes you violent.

[Inkidu]

I... really?

I respect your opinion, but seriously, weed relaxes most people.

Or it makes them insanely paranoid.

[Glossolalia]

Weed isharmless in many circumstances.  In fact, it has some pretty nice health benefits, and studies have shown that over and over again.  But whatever, everyone has their own opinion about it.

But most importantly?  Do not blame marijuana for this guy's cruelty and abhorrent child abuse.  He was obviously screwed up to begin with, and emphasizing the fact that he smoked pot is just making excuses for his ugly, horrific, disgusting and frankly antisocial behaviour.

All I have to say is:

THIS.

[Inkidu]

Weed is harmless in many circumstances.  In fact, it has some pretty nice health benefits, and studies have shown that over and over again.  But whatever, everyone has their own opinion about it.

But most importantly?  Do not blame marijuana for this guy's cruelty and abhorrent child abuse.  He was obviously screwed up to begin with, and emphasizing the fact that he smoked pot is just making excuses for his ugly, horrific, disgusting and frankly antisocial behaviour.

Have you ever smoked pot? Obviously not.   

I have.  Weed doesn't make you violent. 

Being a complete waste of skin assholw who thinks it's awesome to beat up on an infant makes you violent.

I can't know from this being secondhand knowledge but weed's not as tame as people make it out to be. Your right he couldve just been a sadistic bastard but I wouldn't totally rule the plant out of the equation.

No weed doesn't make You violent but I have seen it first hand. It can make people paranoid and stupid.

[Glossolalia]

But to blame it solely on weed, is almost excusing his actions.

There was no need for us to know that he smoked a little joint.

[Inkidu]

But to blame it solely on weed, is almost excusing his actions.

There was no need for us to know that he smoked a little joint.

Yeah but to totally exclude it based on secondhand knowledge?

[Glossolalia]

He'd be far more likely to commit a crime under the influence of alcohol.

[Rhapsody]

I can't know from this being secondhand knowledge but weed's not as tame as people make it out to be. Your right he couldve just been a sadistic bastard but I wouldn't totally rule the plant out of the equation.

Again, inform yourself before you jump to conclusions.  I'm telling you this from first-hand experience, not the second-hand media spin you've obviously gotten.  Marijuana's a painkiller and a relaxant.  I used to smoke it when Midol wasn't helping with my menstrual cramps.  Only thing that worked for me to actually be able to make it through the day.  And yes, I also did it for the recreational buzz too.  It's a medically-viable drug that everyone's so goddamn afraid of, simply because the media has labelled it OMGGATEWAYDRUG, which it isn't.

Alcohol and tobacco, freely available to anyone of legal age, are far, far worse than marijuana, a drug you'd have to smoke nearly 700 times your own body weight in the span of a couple of hours to OD on, for you. 

[Inkidu]

Again, inform yourself before you jump to conclusions.  I'm telling you this from first-hand experience, not the second-hand media spin you've obviously gotten.  Marijuana's a painkiller and a relaxant.  I used to smoke it when Midol wasn't helping with my menstrual cramps.  Only thing that worked for me to actually be able to make it through the day.  And yes, I also did it for the recreational buzz too.  It's a medically-viable drug that everyone's so goddamn afraid of, simply because the media has labelled it OMGGATEWAYDRUG, which it isn't.

Alcohol and tobacco, freely available to anyone of legal age, are far, far worse than marijuana, a drug you'd have to smoke nearly 700 times your own body weight in the span of a couple of hours to OD on, for you. 

I've seen it make people paranoid, stupid, and violent. Firsthand. Paranoid and stupid means the guy is riding in the car with you talking about going out to the police station and shooting them up because they followed him the other day. I said no (Wasn't driving) and he pulled a knife on me. Don't tell me it's freaking mellow.

[Rhapsody]

I've seen it make people paranoid, stupid, and violent. Firsthand. Paranoid and stupid means the guy is riding in the car with you talking about going out to the police station and shooting them up because they followed him the other day. I said no (Wasn't driving) and he pulled a knife on me. Don't tell me it's freaking mellow.

Basic chemistry: amphetamines are uppers; they stimulate everything.  This is what makes you jumpy, energetic, paranoid and, with longterm effects, even delusional.  Tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in cannabis, is an analgesic, a painkiller, not an upper. 

I guarantee if the guy was paranoid and pulled a knife on you?  If he really had a joint, it wasn't the only thing he inhaled that night.

[Inkidu]

It could have possibly exacerbated some faulty wiring or something wiring or something, he might have had something else but all we saw him have was a joint. Now I know the majority of hash is not exactly what it started out as and there are different chemical compositions and some of the stuff sold isn't exactly mellow, but damn if he didn't pull a knife. Luckily he was in the middle seat and a guy got him from behind. 

However, what good does it do me to deal in speculation? I'm sure drugs work exactly the same way on everyone. 

[Trieste]

My firsthand experience with weed is that it causes severe nausea, incredible vertigo, chills, shaking, vomiting and did I mention the horrible, horrible vertigo and lots of puking?

My firsthand experience with weed is not indicative of an average experience, and quite possibly yours, Inkedu, is not, either.

Putting that particular dispute aside, though, I'll add that there is no evidence of his cannabis 'abuse' in the article. It mentions him smoking up once, in the whole thing, and even then, he mentions it in the course of what is probably a lie. So his statements about his use of cannabis are not reliable, since every other part of his story has been found to be unlikely.

Additionally, that sort of CONSTANT physical abuse of the child that they describe would require a fairly constant, solid high... if it had anything to do with the drug. Additionally, what goes up must come down; if the drug was what made him act in this manner in the first place, the natural progression of things would have been that once his mary-jane high wore off, he would have once more transformed into the loving, caring father that you seem to think he is and he would have gotten his child to a doctor.

He did not.

Additionally, I don't know if you followed the pathological info in there, but a lumbar spinal fracture is in the small of the back, just above the hips. Accidental injuries to the spine are usually caused by either blunt impact (like falling on your coccyx) or by the weight of the head yanking things out of place. A lumbar fracture -actual fracture - is extremely difficult to do.

To give you a better idea, a couple winters ago, I was going to grab coffee and stepped out of my apartment onto old-fashioned, solid granite stairs. I slipped on ice, and my feet literally flew out in front of me, such that by the time I landed across the steps, my feet were above my head-level, and I landed with the small of my back directly across the angled part of the step. I got the pointy part of a hard granite stair shoved into my lumbar region, with the force of a fall from, oh ... let's be generous and say a couple feet in the air, and I weigh solidly over 100 pounds... MUCH more than that baby weighed at the weight of a normal 6-month-old (she was undernourished and weighed the same when she died as she did at 6 months of age).

Even with THAT amount of force, with bones that are much stronger than those of a malnourished infant, I got one hell of a bruise, but I did not so much as slip a disc, let alone break my back.

This was intentional, deliberate, and malicious. It was not an act of paranoia, nor done out of ignorance. It was not a mishap. That child died in agony from the very deliberate act of someone who was supposed to take care of her. While her mother essentially stood by and watched.

Speaking of the mother, Inkedu, what is your explanation for her? Did she get high, too, and become paranoid about not calling the police on this man who was abusing her child? Did her paranoia induce her to skip doctor's appointments for the child? To ignore her father's advice to take the kid to a doctor about her arm? Please, explain that one.

Lastly, if someone is a 'cannabis abuser', this means they are not first-time users. In theory, this man knew the effects of cannabis on his psyche. Assuming you are completely right and not at all misguided regarding marijuana, he is still guilty of extreme negligence for partaking of a drug that he knows will remove him of his reasonable mental faculties while he is supposed to be caring for his child. Unacceptable. Inexcusable. The man should be severely punished. He is a monster.

Period.

[Rhapsody]

It could have possibly exacerbated some faulty wiring or something wiring or something, he might have had something else but all we saw him have was a joint. Now I know the majority of hash is not exactly what it started out as and there are different chemical compositions and some of the stuff sold isn't exactly mellow, but damn if he didn't pull a knife. Luckily he was in the middle seat and a guy got him from behind. 

However, what good does it do me to deal in speculation? I'm sure drugs work exactly the same way on everyone. 

... You were seeming much more reasonable before you edited to add that last line.   Honestly? I'm done here.  I'm not going to go back and forth all night with you, Inkindu.  If you want to blame the weed for all the monstrosities in the world, thusly absolving the monstrosities themselves of their culpability for their actions?  Go right ahead.  I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

But I hope you know that it's that kind of attitude that makes false victims out of very real perpetrators.

[Inkidu]

... You were seeming much more reasonable before you edited to add that last line.   Honestly? I'm done here.  I'm not going to go back and forth all night with you, Inkindu.  If you want to blame the weed for all the monstrosities in the world, thusly absolving the monstrosities themselves of their culpability for their actions?  Go right ahead.  I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

But I hope you know that it's that kind of attitude that makes false victims out of very real perpetrators.

I didn't say it was totally the weed's fault, I didn't say the weed had nothing to do with. I'm saying it's not totally harmless, which you seem so dead-set on proving.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Seriously....this is just horrific.  They obviously were going for a defaming of weed with the remark of cannibis...instead of just saying weed or pot like they do in alot of articles.  Honestly though, that...there is no explanation or excuse for that.  There is nothing...no amount of paranoia or faulty wiring is going to explain that.  The man beat a defenseless child to where what small portion of life she had was filled with pain and agony. 

Arguing weed over that...there is nothing to argue about.  There are crack heads and heroine addicts that wouldn't even hurt their children.  I am disgusted that the article even tries to blame this on a drug.  That child is owed more than some idiot's attempt at a war on drug's.  Poor baby.

[Inkidu]

Seriously....this is just horrific.  They obviously were going for a defaming of weed with the remark of cannibis...instead of just saying weed or pot like they do in alot of articles.  Honestly though, that...there is no explanation or excuse for that.  There is nothing...no amount of paranoia or faulty wiring is going to explain that.  The man beat a defenseless child to where what small portion of life she had was filled with pain and agony. 

Arguing weed over that...there is nothing to argue about.  There are crack heads and heroine addicts that wouldn't even hurt their children.  I am disgusted that the article even tries to blame this on a drug.  That child is owed more than some idiot's attempt at a war on drug's.  Poor baby.

People tend to look at me funny when I say it's just plain evil. They want reasons.

[Aiden]

How about blaming the worthless sack of shit that was the mother and father.

Don't blame media/society or drugs (in this case)

Some people are just born pieces of shit (Fuck that there is good in all people bullshit people try to spread)
It is horrible that such a tragedy could occur to a child, its these cases I believe that they fucking ignorant people need to be chained up and beaten to death with any blunt object. Let their last moments of their lives being full of pain and misery.


(Yea I know some of my views are a bit distorted...save me the commentary on them...bottom line that asshole should die (in my opinion...along with the worthless mother))

[Inkidu]

How about blaming the worthless sack of shit that was the mother and father.

Don't blame media/society or drugs (in this case)

Some people are just born pieces of shit (Fuck that there is good in all people bullshit people try to spread)
It is horrible that such a tragedy could occur to a child, its these cases I believe that they fucking ignorant people need to be chained up and beaten to death with any blunt object. Let their last moments of their lives being full of pain and misery.


(Yea I know some of my views are a bit distorted...save me the commentary on them...bottom line that asshole should die (in my opinion...along with the worthless mother))

Locke Hobbs would be proud.

[Trieste]

Eh, Locke was all about being born with nothing. White paper, tabula rasa, whatever. Although he stole it from Aristotle.

Ergo, Aristotle would be proud. <3

[Aiden]

I'm not this "Crazy" about stuff like this, I'm just a very protective older brother....

[ZK]

Someone should snap his spine in two.

Blaming marijuana for your actions is just as bad as parents blaming videogames for their children's behavior and not their own lack of parenting.

People like this make me sick. :/

If he was on PCP, then it could be drug related, but marijuana? Yeah... riiiight.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

People tend to look at me funny when I say it's just plain evil. They want reasons.

No, people want an excuse.  They want some way to distance themselves from a human being that they find revolting, some definitive line to be drawn to say I am not like them.  People use labels such as "evil" and "drug abuser" and so many others to make these distinctions.  Allows them to continue on with their lives and beleive that they are above such things.  

[ZK]

Well, snapping your own child's spine is evil enough. But, excuses suck. If you're going to do something, stand by it. Good or evil. Sorry, but excuses is just as bad as the deed itself if it's negative.

[The Overlord]

Have you ever smoked pot? Obviously not.   

I have.  Weed doesn't make you violent. 

Being a complete waste of skin assholw who thinks it's awesome to beat up on an infant makes you violent.

I'm going to have to back this up 110%. This guy is a complete waste of skin that would have ended up hurting or killing someone regardless...the really sad part of this is that some do-right group out there is going to use this to say "see? Pot is evil!!" I'm going to have to agree here, I doubt Inkidu has smoked it either.



Want to hear a theory? I warn you it's very pessimistic, perhaps even fatalistic, but the more and more I think about it...







OK, you're still here, here goes...


I don't believe the authorities and movers of society want to stop stuff like this, yes...you heard me, I think they may be that fargone.

It's the same with school violence; a student shoots up his high school or college, then they always hit the same tired old excuses. He listened to music with violent lyrics, he watched a horror flick, he played Grand Theft Auto the weekend before.

Bullshit. That the kid was a dysfunctional douchebag from an irreparably broken household, and was a timebomb waiting to go off because his life sucked to hell since his parents both worked 60+ hours and were never there to teach him proper, never comes up in the media. The parents are never to blame; accountability never exists. But yet all these so-called experts get on CNN and Fox and debate until they're blue in the face. They go through the same songs and dances, they blame the media, they state the bleeding obvious that it was horrible, and...they vow 'to make sure it never happens again'.


But it does happen again and all the Doctor Phil’s out there, in the immortal words of Admiral James T. Kirk; keep...missing...the...target.

With no intention of making light of these tragedies, in the grand scheme of things, they're just another statistic, barely a blip on the radar of the powers that be. What's the military phrase?...acceptable collateral damage, or something like that?

I mean, what do I know? I'm just a armchair philosopher parked behind my monitor with a glass of good whiskey and no doctorate to speak of in the medical field.

...yet, it dawned on me. Hmmm.

[Inkidu]

Eh, Locke was all about being born with nothing. White paper, tabula rasa, whatever. Although he stole it from Aristotle.

Ergo, Aristotle would be proud. <3

Eh my bad I meant Hobbs. I get my philosophers confused after eleven. 

[Rhapsody]

Bullshit. That the kid was a dysfunctional douchebag from an irreparably broken household, and was a timebomb waiting to go off because his life sucked to hell since his parents both worked 60+ hours and were never there to teach him proper, never comes up in the media. The parents are never to blame; accountability never exists. But yet all these so-called experts get on CNN and Fox and debate until they're blue in the face. They go through the same songs and dances, they blame the media, they state the bleeding obvious that it was horrible, and...they vow 'to make sure it never happens again'.

The only thing I'm going to point out here is that you can't shift the blame onto the parents, because that's excusing the kid's behaviour to some extent.  Unless they have some severe mental delusions, by the age of 13, you have a pretty good sense of right and wrong; pulling something like Columbine, or Virginia Tech, takes some pretty deliberate, willful and sociopathic thought processes. 

I read a story where a five year old brought his father's gun to school because he thought it'd be neat for show-and-tell.  THAT's the sort of thing you can blame parents for; with a gun in the house, they should have made -sure- to keep it locked up, as well as teaching the kid that guns are not a good thing to touch.  That's a far cry, though, from a teenager who comes to school armed to the teeth like a commando after acquiring machine guns and sawed-offs and shoot up their classmates simply because people laughed at them.

Sure, the parents have an influence. Sure, music and friends and video games and television have an influence.  Sure, everyone has violent fantasies now and then... but these people who willfully ignore the filter in their heads that delineate the real world from relatively harmless fantasies.  The lion's share of the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of those who thought it'd be a kick to bring illegal weapons into a school and start killing people.

Imma finish up with a quote from an episode of CSI called "Fannysmackin'". 

"You know, it kinda sounds like you guys are blaming everyone but these kids. I mean, you don't get a bye just because you grew up here or your parents are on drugs or--- those kids were perfectly capable of telling the difference between a wild night out and beating somebody to death."

[Inkidu]

I'm going to have to back this up 110%. This guy is a complete waste of skin that would have ended up hurting or killing someone regardless...the really sad part of this is that some do-right group out there is going to use this to say "see? Pot is evil!!" I'm going to have to agree here, I doubt Inkidu has smoked it either.



Want to hear a theory? I warn you it's very pessimistic, perhaps even fatalistic, but the more and more I think about it...







OK, you're still here, here goes...


I don't believe the authorities and movers of society want to stop stuff like this, yes...you heard me, I think they may be that fargone.

It's the same with school violence; a student shoots up his high school or college, then they always hit the same tired old excuses. He listened to music with violent lyrics, he watched a horror flick, he played Grand Theft Auto the weekend before.

Bullshit. That the kid was a dysfunctional douchebag from an irreparably broken household, and was a timebomb waiting to go off because his life sucked to hell since his parents both worked 60+ hours and were never there to teach him proper, never comes up in the media. The parents are never to blame; accountability never exists. But yet all these so-called experts get on CNN and Fox and debate until they're blue in the face. They go through the same songs and dances, they blame the media, they state the bleeding obvious that it was horrible, and...they vow 'to make sure it never happens again'.


But it does happen again and all the Doctor Phil’s out there, in the immortal words of Admiral James T. Kirk; keep...missing...the...target.

With no intention of making light of these tragedies, in the grand scheme of things, they're just another statistic, barely a blip on the radar of the powers that be. What's the military phrase?...acceptable collateral damage, or something like that?

I mean, what do I know? I'm just a armchair philosopher parked behind my monitor with a glass of good whiskey and no doctorate to speak of in the medical field.

...yet, it dawned on me. Hmmm.

Like I said, people tend to look at me funny when I say that there is just evil out there. They want something they can control, something tangible.

[Greenthorn]

How did this become a debate about drugs?

How about...the guy needs to be tortured until he dies from shock or blood loss..whichever comes first...and I'll smoke a joint watching it.

[Trieste]

How did this become a debate about drugs?

How about...the guy needs to be tortured until he dies from shock or blood loss..whichever comes first...and I'll smoke a joint watching it.

You should wait until after Massachusetts decriminalizes weed so you can't get arrested for it. *nodnod*

[Greenthorn]

You should wait until after Massachusetts decriminalizes weed so you can't get arrested for it. *nodnod*

Well I would -never- do anything illegal!!

[Inkidu]

No, people want an excuse.  They want some way to distance themselves from a human being that they find revolting, some definitive line to be drawn to say I am not like them.  People use labels such as "evil" and "drug abuser" and so many others to make these distinctions.  Allows them to continue on with their lives and beleive that they are above such things.  

Oh here it goes, moral relativity. Face it, there are just somethings in the world that are evil.

[Trieste]

Oh here it goes, moral relativity. Face it, there are just somethings in the world that are evil.

Excuse you. The whole central node of many debates is 'evil' and what falls under that heading. Is abortion evil, is execution evil? ... I understand your exasperation, but please do not order others to share your worldview.

[Inkidu]

Excuse you. The whole central node of many debates is 'evil' and what falls under that heading. Is abortion evil, is execution evil? ... I understand your exasperation, but please do not order others to share your worldview.

I don't recall ordering anyone to do anything. I just recall using the words face it, which are pretty commonplace in making a point. No but I think torturing your daughter for months and the possibly breaking her back over your knee is evil.

[Trieste]

Oh here it goes, moral relativity. Face it, there are just somethings in the world that are evil.

Second-person imperative is essentially an order.

[Inkidu]

Second-person imperative is essentially an order.

Fine if you just have no better reason than grammar. I'm sorry.

[Trieste]

Thank you.

The thing is, I'm not arguing against your having an opinion. I'm not arguing the validity of your opinion one way or the other. My point was that others don't have to SHARE your opinion, and that's where my problem was.

I really don't think you'll get anyone arguing that this guy was a saint, or anything. Well. Maybe Overlord, if he's feeling ornery... but I doubt even he wants to do that. :P

[Inkidu]

Thank you.

The thing is, I'm not arguing against your having an opinion. I'm not arguing the validity of your opinion one way or the other. My point was that others don't have to SHARE your opinion, and that's where my problem was.

I really don't think you'll get anyone arguing that this guy was a saint, or anything. Well. Maybe Overlord, if he's feeling ornery... but I doubt even he wants to do that. :P

I was kind of being sarcastic, but I see the point.

[Sherona]

People tend to look at me funny when I say it's just plain evil. They want reasons.

Um yes. Most people want reasons behind opinions. Is why so many people et frusterated with...those...who just spout opinions without facts or reasons to support said opinions.


I could say.

The sky is not Blue...its pink and purple polkadot, the grass is red, and the oceans are made of metamorphic rock.

Then just leave...hmm yeha people aren't going to be likely to believe me, or respect my opinions if I didn't atleast attempt at showing the evidence of why I believe such.

That being said.


I use marijuana as a relaxant. I am high strung, over stressed, all part of my chronic depression symptoms. I don't use it every day, or even every week but when I am in a Low and I find myself unable to sit down and just chill, I do light up.

I know many cancer patients who use, I know many chronic pain that is aleviated from it, I know in many countries medicinal marijuana is legal, and frankly I am actually actively trying to push for that here.

I will say this. as long as its illegal, and people buy from unethical drug dealers then there is a good possibility that pot is laced with other drugs, PCP was the big t hing in the 90's...this could account for the person who got violent....since pot is proven to be a relaxant...but everyone's body chemistry is different too. I took muscle relaxers after my stint in the hospital many years ago, it was to help keep my muscles loose and not tense...can't remember the name of it right now but I will eventually....in very rare cases some people's muscles actaully spasmed uncontrollably on this medicine..which is odd since it IS a relaxant..*shrugs* But to say that osmething is utterly evil with out study but only one or two witnessed accounts...when you don't know the variables...such as, was the pot intentionally or unintentionally imbibed with other drugs?

Frankly I would much rather meet someone high on pot in a dark alley then someone drunk from whiskey...

[The Overlord]

How did this become a debate about drugs?

How about...the guy needs to be tortured until he dies from shock or blood loss..whichever comes first...and I'll smoke a joint watching it.

The article was titled Cannabis abuser 'snapped his 16-month-old daughter's back in two'...I brought up because you KNOW the anti-pot cheerleaders out there will be all over this as reason to step up laws against it.

I don't know what the death penalty laws are over there, if any, but I agree this scum needs to die. Hell, give me an expense-paid trip over there and I'll pull the switch for you...someone's got to do it.  >:(

[The Overlord]

I really don't think you'll get anyone arguing that this guy was a saint, or anything. Well. Maybe Overlord, if he's feeling ornery... but I doubt even he wants to do that. :P

Umm...no.

[The Overlord]

The only thing I'm going to point out here is that you can't shift the blame onto the parents, because that's excusing the kid's behaviour to some extent.  Unless they have some severe mental delusions, by the age of 13, you have a pretty good sense of right and wrong; pulling something like Columbine, or Virginia Tech, takes some pretty deliberate, willful and sociopathic thought processes. 

It's not really my intent to put all the blame on the family, but almost invariably the blame for these things are assigned an external and high-profile cause by the media.

I don't know how the UK stacks up in comparison, but we've raped the American nuclear family. These kids today are ungracious smartass little shits because any kind of physical discipline is seen as bad. We have to worry about going to war with someone who might complain that they seen us spank a child in public and now there's just a 'time-out'.

I'm sounding more and more like my father, but like he said, sometimes kids need a 'good crack in the ass' to straighten them out. My siblings and I; we got a few in our formative years when we fucked up, and guess what? It didn't make us drug-addicted baby-killers. Sometimes kids need a good smack upside something to spell it out for them, some of them are dense as hell and don't get it otherwise. A lot of the crap we're seeing today starts and ends in the home.

[Rhapsody]

I'm sounding more and more like my father, but like he said, sometimes kids need a 'good crack in the ass' to straighten them out. My siblings and I; we got a few in our formative years when we fucked up, and guess what? It didn't make us drug-addicted baby-killers. Sometimes kids need a good smack upside something to spell it out for them, some of them are dense as hell and don't get it otherwise. A lot of the crap we're seeing today starts and ends in the home.

I have two kids, and I do my best by them, but you know what?  We're not allowed to punish our kids anymore without the fear of some government agency coming down on us to snatch them away. Do you know that most of them consider spanking to be abusive?  That sending them to their rooms to ride out a tantrum or as punishment is "confinement"?  Maybe this is me trying to pass the buck onto the government, but I've had discussions with social workers about this very thing at my son's preschool.

If my husband and I even so much as argue, and my son mentions something about it at preschool, the government requires, requires the teachers and workers at his school to call Child, Youth and Family Services (CPS) to inform them.  They can't call us and talk about it until after the social workers contact us.  And if they don't call CYFS about the argument my son mentioned, and the government finds out about it?  There goes their funding.

I shit you not my friend.  Can't spank 'em.  Can't send 'em to their rooms.  Half the time, you can't raise your voices to them either, for fear of some social worker showing up on your doorstep.  With kids being told to call Child Protection if Mommy or Daddy hit you, kids who got spanked once as punishment for something they did have just as much reason to report their parents as the kid who's getting beat to shit every other day by his drunken father.   Does that seem right to you?

Raising a kid today, my dear, means we're effectively neutered for authority, unless we want to risk having our kids taken from us.

[Inkidu]

Um yes. Most people want reasons behind opinions. Is why so many people et frusterated with...those...who just spout opinions without facts or reasons to support said opinions.


I could say.

The sky is not Blue...its pink and purple polkadot, the grass is red, and the oceans are made of metamorphic rock.

Then just leave...hmm yeha people aren't going to be likely to believe me, or respect my opinions if I didn't atleast attempt at showing the evidence of why I believe such.

That being said.


I use marijuana as a relaxant. I am high strung, over stressed, all part of my chronic depression symptoms. I don't use it every day, or even every week but when I am in a Low and I find myself unable to sit down and just chill, I do light up.

I know many cancer patients who use, I know many chronic pain that is aleviated from it, I know in many countries medicinal marijuana is legal, and frankly I am actually actively trying to push for that here.

I will say this. as long as its illegal, and people buy from unethical drug dealers then there is a good possibility that pot is laced with other drugs, PCP was the big t hing in the 90's...this could account for the person who got violent....since pot is proven to be a relaxant...but everyone's body chemistry is different too. I took muscle relaxers after my stint in the hospital many years ago, it was to help keep my muscles loose and not tense...can't remember the name of it right now but I will eventually....in very rare cases some people's muscles actaully spasmed uncontrollably on this medicine..which is odd since it IS a relaxant..*shrugs* But to say that osmething is utterly evil with out study but only one or two witnessed accounts...when you don't know the variables...such as, was the pot intentionally or unintentionally imbibed with other drugs?

Frankly I would much rather meet someone high on pot in a dark alley then someone drunk from whiskey...

I would much rather prefer neither. However, part of what an opinion is, is that it doesn't need to have facts. Did you ever do fact and opinion questions? The question isn't whether or not there is evil that's perfectly clear, the question is what constitutes evil.

[Mathim]

The only thing I know weed was to blame for was a story my foster father told me; some girl was high and driving a car, then hit a homeless man who crashed through her windshield and was impaled on the glass. She pulled into her garage and left him there, bleeding, where he died, because she was too freaked out to do anything about it.

In this case, I think the 'jobless' part was probably a bigger culprit than pot, if pot was even a factor at all. Depression and anger are a dangerous mix, and with no one to take it out on, well, someone defenseless, even one's own young flesh and blood, end up being the ones. I know that unfortunate truth well.

I don't get why he smoked it, was he trying to mellow out or what? If that was the case, it sure as hell didn't work. Or just to dull his senses so he wouldn't have to feel the guilt of it? It doesn't really matter, he's the worst kind of person and should be tortured to death. I say fuck the eighth amendment, sometimes they need to punish people harshly to get the message across.

[Trieste]

The only thing I know weed was to blame for was a story my foster father told me; some girl was high and driving a car, then hit a homeless man who crashed through her windshield and was impaled on the glass. She pulled into her garage and left him there, bleeding, where he died, because she was too freaked out to do anything about it.

Urban legend: http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/bargrill.asp

Meant to scare people off drugs/drinking/sex while driving/whatever. A car is not a bubble. Even fucked up, you know you've hit something when you hit it, especially something as large as a human man. The car pulls, and it does damage. You may not realise WHAT you hit all the time, but you know you've hit something.

[Rhapsody]

The only thing I know weed was to blame for was a story my foster father told me; some girl was high and driving a car, then hit a homeless man who crashed through her windshield and was impaled on the glass. She pulled into her garage and left him there, bleeding, where he died, because she was too freaked out to do anything about it.

According to the story, it was ecstasy, not marijuana.  A completely different type of drug altogether, and one on which it is rather easy to freak out and lose track of large chunks of time.

Urban legend: http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/bargrill.asp

Not an urban legend: http://www.wftv.com/news/2295744/detail.html

[Trieste]

Yes, people have hit people with their cars. I'm not saying that didn't happen.

Yes, people have driven home and let the people die because they are freaked out. I'm not saying that didn't happen.

But nowhere in that article does it say she was on drugs (I'm assuming it's mentioned somewheres and the wrong article was just linked) nor does she claim that she didn't know he was there. The fact that she didn't testify could be construed either way - self-implication (Canada's Fourth, the U.S.'s Fifth) or perjury, it doesn't matter. That is not a precedent case for being so drug-addled (or alcohol-addled) that you don't know right from wrong.

The fact that she took the body and then dumped it in a park could be taken as proof that she knew she'd done a bad thing, and it's sad that she would never have been caught had she not blabbed at a party.

[Rhapsody]

This is the story where the drugs are first mentioned.  Alcohol and ecstasy are identified here, then in the following story, along with the fact that after dumping the body, she went home and got laid.

[Primarch]

I don't really care whether drugs can be blamed or partially blamed or whatever. I think the more important issue is, someone was actually so cruel as to beat his own child to death, not in an isolated incident, but over a period of 8 weeks, if not more, as the kid didn't appear to gain any weight over, what was it, ten months? WHAT THE FUCK!?

[Bayushi]

I will say this. as long as its illegal, and people buy from unethical drug dealers then there is a good possibility that pot is laced with other drugs, PCP was the big t hing in the 90's...this could account for the person who got violent....since pot is proven to be a relaxant...but everyone's body chemistry is different too. I took muscle relaxers after my stint in the hospital many years ago, it was to help keep my muscles loose and not tense...can't remember the name of it right now but I will eventually....in very rare cases some people's muscles actaully spasmed uncontrollably on this medicine..which is odd since it IS a relaxant..*shrugs*

Different people have differing reactions to different drugs. Both legal and illegal.

For instance.....

An old friend and roommate of mine has two kids. Unfortunately, she has ADHD(and another issue that causes vertigo). So do both of her sons. The older son, and the mother, take a prescribed pharmaceutical that's effectively the drug known as 'Speed'. Instead of giving them a crazy high, it helps them mellow out some, and concentrate on day-to-day tasks. And yet, the youngest kid had the usual reaction to the narcotic, becoming insanely hyper(He's bad enough as it is without it.... with it, he's a damned monster!).

Also, an antibiotic that treats Staphylococcus infections didn't work so well on me when I was hospitalized after I had the car accident that ended up disabling me permanently. Where some people turn out just fine with the drug, I had to be taken off of it. It was stripping the insides of the veins in my arm(introduced via IV drip).

I'm sounding more and more like my father, but like he said, sometimes kids need a 'good crack in the ass' to straighten them out. My siblings and I; we got a few in our formative years when we fucked up, and guess what? It didn't make us drug-addicted baby-killers. Sometimes kids need a good smack upside something to spell it out for them, some of them are dense as hell and don't get it otherwise. A lot of the crap we're seeing today starts and ends in the home.

Indeed. I am of the same opinion as Overlord here. Spanking and the like teaches the child that there will be unpleasant repercussions for misbehaviour. In so doing, they learn that the behaviour in question is wrong, helping to prevent future occurrences. Unfortunately, our country has become so 'Politically Correct' that nothing can be done to a child, as far as discipline. And yet, the same states that will take your children from you for spanking allow corporal punishment in schools.

IT'S OKAY IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT, BUT NOT YOU!

Double standards much?

I would much rather prefer neither. However, part of what an opinion is, is that it doesn't need to have facts. Did you ever do fact and opinion questions? The question isn't whether or not there is evil that's perfectly clear, the question is what constitutes evil.

You made a large mistake here, Inkidu. Everything we 'know' is opinion. There is no such thing as fact or truth.

The scientific method says otherwise. Unless you can witness every possible occurrence involving a "fact" or "truth", you cannot prove that sometimes it isn't 'fact', or 'true'. Such as gravity. Which is why gravity is still a theory.

(Sorry, had to get on this.... it's a big thing with me, and always has been)

[Mathim]

That Chante Mallard one sounded a lot like the one he told me. Maybe he just decided to change the part about it being alcohol and ecstasy, making it pot instead; plus, he said it was days that she left him there dying, not hours like in the report. Not like I ever needed convincing to stay away from drugs, I decided that on my own.

Anyway, I think we have established that pot does not calm a person down ENOUGH to keep them from killing someone, is that a fair assessment of the situation?

[Rhapsody]

Anyway, I think we have established that pot does not calm a person down ENOUGH to keep them from killing someone, is that a fair assessment of the situation?

No.  I think a fair assessment of the situation is that pot shouldn't be in the equation at all, since it's only presented as media hysteria and not as a legitimate part of the story.

[Mathim]

Well that part is true enough; but I still think what I said about it was valid. It's not enough to make someone just chill and rethink such brutality. Wouldn't that have been awesome, if it had calmed him down enough to make him realize what he was doing and the situation hadn't turned as horrific as that? Then it would have given some props to marijuana usage. From what all my friends have told me, about it mellowing them out and all that, this article (to me, at least) proves it's not entirely effective. I do find that somewhat useful information, even if it was biased. Then again, they always get drunk and high at the same time so they might think it's just the pot and not the alcohol too...

[Bayushi]

We don't even know if he was under the influence of his cannabis at the time. For all we know, he lied to the police and told them that the pot made him do it.... so he could avoid going to jail.

*shrugs*

For the Record, I have never used, nor will I use(barring extreme medical circumstances) any "illegal" narcotics. Not only am I uninterested, I couldn't afford it... and many of them would further damage my brain. I've already lost a number of brain cells after my bad car wreck and brain injury... not interested in losing more, thanks.

In the same breath, however, I do not have a major issue with marijuana. I *do* have problems with those who 'celebrate' marijuana, 4:20, etc..... no major problems, just a disagreement. Those who have medical marijuana, LEGALLY, are exempt from this... provided they do not abuse their privilege. Those who use marijuana recreationally I frown at, but do not otherwise worry or fuss over. My main issue is the sub-culture that seems to revolve around the stuff, which makes it out to be 'cool', and drags impressionable youth into using.

[ShrowdedPoet]

That makes me sick!  *gets sick*

[The Overlord]

Indeed. I am of the same opinion as Overlord here. Spanking and the like teaches the child that there will be unpleasant repercussions for misbehavior. In so doing, they learn that the behavior in question is wrong, helping to prevent future occurrences. Unfortunately, our country has become so 'Politically Correct' that nothing can be done to a child, as far as discipline. And yet, the same states that will take your children from you for spanking allow corporal punishment in schools.

IT'S OKAY IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES IT, BUT NOT YOU!

Double standards much?

It's even more interesting when you consider to how many sectors the double standard goes...

Consider how much money, time and effort the DEA goes into 'illegal' drug enforcement, yet look at the billions the pharmaceuticals industry goes in pushing other drugs. And I'm to the point, more specifically they are to the point where I'll label them pushers, not providers.

The recent armada of drug commercials have been subtly insidious. Have a condition you think is wrong? Headaches? Edginess, insomnia, irritability...you can be damn sure they have a pill for it somewhere. See your doctor.

Side effects may include vertigo, excessive drooling, bleeding from every bodily cavity, motormouth, athlete's foot, easy bruising, unexplained papercuts, mummy rot, crabs, alien infestation, simulated intoxication, heart failure, seizures, difficulty breathing, difficulty concentrating, that slug-like thing that Khan put in Mr. Chekhov's ear, total neural network collapse, acute amnesia, harassment by witches...and, of course, sudden and irreversible death.

IMO all the stimulants ads are part of it; can't get enough shit done during the day? Try our energy drink, it's like tapping a 55-gallon industrial drum of caffeine directly into your bloodstream! Be a good little worker drone, with our product you can stay up for 90 hours straight.

The pushers try to get doctors to promote the crap, and clearly it's all untested, so they want lab rats too. It makes the US government the largest drug cartel in history. We're clearly ripe for revolution, but as my brother said, too many people are too pacified to revolt.

We just need enough people to get good and angry...then you'll see change.

[The Overlord]

We don't even know if he was under the influence of his cannabis at the time. For all we know, he lied to the police and told them that the pot made him do it.... so he could avoid going to jail.

You bring up a very good point, but you can bet some people will still want to blame it.

[Oniya]

Just my two cents - which can't even by a piece of gum in most places.

Most recreational drugs, alcohol included, have a tendency to lower those filters that we all put up naturally.  People who are angry don't 'mellow out' after a couple drinks, they end up starting bar fights.  In person, I'm quite introverted, but I'll get very talkative after 'indulging' (half a glass of wine - I'm a cheap date lightweight.)  Oddly enough (or maybe not so much), I see that same lowering of filters with Internet communications - someone who is nasty under a veneer of social acceptability off-line is more likely to be nasty online than they are to keep that veneer.

My guess is that this low-life had a tendency to be abusive long before he lit up.  I also suspect he's downplayed what/how much he used.  Why?  Because when people get caught, that's what they do.  Watch the vids of people getting pulled over for DUI - 'Have you been drinking?'  'No, occifer, not at all! *pause* Maybe - *thinks hard* - one beer... *officer glares* ... Or five...' 

If the drugs had anything to do with it, it was most likely just in bringing his true nature to the surface.

[Rhapsody]

In the same breath, however, I do not have a major issue with marijuana. I *do* have problems with those who 'celebrate' marijuana, 4:20, etc..... no major problems, just a disagreement.

To be honest, 4:20 is only fun the first time you "celebrate" it, especially if you don't partake too often.  It gets real old real quick after that.   I've known people who are so fanatical about it, they take the day off work so they can indulge all day. 

I know I sound like a major advocate of the legalization of cannibis, and I am... but I have my limits.  I don't think it should be a free-for-all; I think it should fall under the same regulations as alcohol and cigarettes.  Taxed the same.  Carrying the same consequences as lighting up in a smoke-free environment, or driving/working/going to school while under the influence, and also carrying the same consequences for providing it the underaged as the guy who gets caught buying a six-pack for fifteen-year-olds.

[ShrowdedPoet]

This is a terrible tragedy!  That poor baby!  I want to kill the evil bastard that did it!  I want to make him live for a year in that kind of abuse.  Make him feel malnourishment, dehydration, and beatings!  I want to break his bones and not take him to the doctor!  Just give me a year with him and then I want to snap his back like he did that poor baby.  I want him to suffer and die!

[Mathim]

My only real gripe with it has been that I've seen what people who habitually indulge in it are like. They are all lazy, shiftless losers who have absolutely no dreams or goals in life other than having as much pot as possible and who are mortally afraid of the future. They live totally in the present and are, in a word, pathetic. They're the sort of people, I would presume, that grow up to live paycheck to paycheck for the rest of their lives because they didn't do anything to make sure they'd have a good future. A few years of frivolity in their teens and twenties, and the rest of their lives are totally fucked off because they're too stupid to do well in school if they go back, or they won't pass drug tests because they never stop doing the things even if they reduce their usage while trying to kick-start their future.

[ShrowdedPoet]

My only real gripe with it has been that I've seen what people who habitually indulge in it are like. They are all lazy, shiftless losers who have absolutely no dreams or goals in life other than having as much pot as possible and who are mortally afraid of the future. They live totally in the present and are, in a word, pathetic. They're the sort of people, I would presume, that grow up to live paycheck to paycheck for the rest of their lives because they didn't do anything to make sure they'd have a good future. A few years of frivolity in their teens and twenties, and the rest of their lives are totally fucked off because they're too stupid to do well in school if they go back, or they won't pass drug tests because they never stop doing the things even if they reduce their usage while trying to kick-start their future.

Alright.  I've never done drugs, don't care to.  My uncle on the other hand has been doing drugs since he was 16 or younger, he's now in his late 40's.  He has a family, a house, a van, a motorcycle, a job working for the wal-mart home office, and quite a few dogs.  He's not the most inteligent fry in the vat but he's not an idiot either.  And he's a hard worker.  He's not lazy in any way! 

I perfer my uncle on pot cause he can be a very violent volitile man.  When he's on pot he's much more mellow and less crazy, scary, and violent. 

I just had to point out that not all drug users are the way you see them.  I've seen plenty of cases where they were good hard working people.

[Greenthorn]

My only real gripe with it has been that I've seen what people who habitually indulge in it are like. They are all lazy, shiftless losers who have absolutely no dreams or goals in life other than having as much pot as possible and who are mortally afraid of the future. They live totally in the present and are, in a word, pathetic. They're the sort of people, I would presume, that grow up to live paycheck to paycheck for the rest of their lives because they didn't do anything to make sure they'd have a good future. A few years of frivolity in their teens and twenties, and the rest of their lives are totally fucked off because they're too stupid to do well in school if they go back, or they won't pass drug tests because they never stop doing the things even if they reduce their usage while trying to kick-start their future.

You've got to be kidding?!

Again...hello!!

I did cocaine, acid, mushrooms, speed, and smoked pot for about 7 years of my life...and again...I'm intelligent, have kids, have employment....*sighs*

Mathim you never fail to really bring out my nasty side...nor do you ever fail to insult me by lumping people you find subpar into one group.  Shame on you.

[Rhapsody]

My only real gripe with it has been that I've seen what people who habitually indulge in it are like. They are all lazy, shiftless losers who have absolutely no dreams or goals in life other than having as much pot as possible and who are mortally afraid of the future. They live totally in the present and are, in a word, pathetic. They're the sort of people, I would presume, that grow up to live paycheck to paycheck for the rest of their lives because they didn't do anything to make sure they'd have a good future. A few years of frivolity in their teens and twenties, and the rest of their lives are totally fucked off because they're too stupid to do well in school if they go back, or they won't pass drug tests because they never stop doing the things even if they reduce their usage while trying to kick-start their future.

You can't blame the drugs entirely for that, doll.  That's mostly basic human laziness and lack of motivation.  Pot's completely out of your system in 20 or so days.

There are medical marijuana patients, like Irvin Rosenfield (one of the lucky seven to be federally funded before the US shut the program down for new intakes) who is a stockbroker.  He fully admits he smokes at least half a dozen joints during a working day, a dozen per day total, and successfully handles millions of dollars of client resources while he's doing it.  He uses it to relieve the pain of his benign bone tumors.  His employers support him, and all his clients know he uses it to manage his pain.  Maybe he's an exception, but I don't think he proves the rule.

Also, I do take exception to the "living paycheck to paycheck" coupled with "shiftless losers".  Living paycheck to paycheck is an unfortunate reality for a lot of people, myself included, because of the rising costs of basic necessities and craptacular state of economics.  It has little to do with "doing as little as possible to ensure your future" and everything to do with your circumstances opposed to the skyrocketing costs of things like groceries, gas and electricity.

[ShrowdedPoet]

Also, I do take exception to the "living paycheck to paycheck" coupled with "shiftless losers".  Living paycheck to paycheck is an unfortunate reality for a lot of people, myself included, because of the rising costs of basic necessities and craptacular state of economics.  It has little to do with "doing as little as possible to ensure your future" and everything to do with your circumstances opposed to the skyrocketing costs of things like groceries, gas and electricity.

*stands, applauds, and wipes a tear from my eye*  Beautifully stated!

[Bayushi]

Also, I do take exception to the "living paycheck to paycheck" coupled with "shiftless losers".  Living paycheck to paycheck is an unfortunate reality for a lot of people, myself included, because of the rising costs of basic necessities and craptacular state of economics.  It has little to do with "doing as little as possible to ensure your future" and everything to do with your circumstances opposed to the skyrocketing costs of things like groceries, gas and electricity.

Indeed.

And there are those of us who are forced to live paycheck-to-paycheck, namely seniors and the disabled.

There are a fair good amount of folks who became disabled before they'd worked long enough to receive disability benefits(SSDI: Supplemental Security Disability Income), instead receiving Social Security benefits(SSI: Supplemental Security Income). SSDI awards amounts proportionally equivalent to however much they were making before their disabling injury occurred. SSI awards the same amount, regardless(excluding states that voluntarily choose to add a 'cost of living adjustment', such as California). If I had worked but one year(quarter) longer, I would have been receiving approximately $1500 to $1800 US. Instead, I receive Social Security: $634 a month. Most one-bedroom apartments in my area cost approximately $650 per month, which prices me out of the housing market entirely. This doesn't include utilities/garbage and amenities(internet, etc).

So I obviously live paycheck to paycheck. And yet I'm 'villified' for being poor. I'm a good ways under the poverty line, by income. I do not even receive $10,000 a year. I have been priced out of housing, priced out of transportation(I can't afford a vehicle, insurance and/or gasoline), and if it weren't for Federally mandated Medicaid, I would be priced out of health care.

And to think.... the Dhimmicrats want to improve the lives of the lower-class of the country.... but put billions of tax dollars into pork projects(not that Republicans are exempt... but they're not preaching 'social justice by wealth redistribution') instead of giving the Social Security fund the billions they've pilfered from... back.

I'm permanently disabled, lucky to be able to still read, speak, walk, think critically, and type. And I am looking at a bleak future where I'll be destitute and back on the streets because the Social Security fund finally falls through when Congress raids it for more pork-barrel funding.

...sorry for bringing politics into it, but as you can see, I'm seeing problems ahead.

[Mathim]

Hey, I know about living paycheck to paycheck when my mom got disabled, and that was the reason I first experienced homelessness. Thanks to that, I'm going to college and getting a fucking master's degree no matter how many student loans I have to take out. Theoretically everyone should be able to do that. THEORETICALLY. I'm sure there are exceptions or everyone would do this, right? That's the smart thing to do, right?

I admit I should have rephrased my previous statement to 'the ones I have seen', meaning my former co-workers, and there were at least two dozen of them all in the same boat. I tried and tried to convince them to get back on track but to no avail, and that was a year ago, and they're still all stuck exactly where they were a year ago. I'm not saying people are capable of change (it's obviously possible) but the people I've been around who do drugs like that have ranged from just stealing their dad's medical marijuana to damaging their brains irreversibly on ecstasy. I haven't met anyone personally who was able to do this kind of thing without serious repercussions. But I'm sure it's possible, it's just much, much less likely for someone who habitually does drugs (and LOTS of drugs, to the point where you're messed up in class and at work) than someone who doesn't, to succeed in college and work. I mean, look at who's running the country.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Hey, I know about living paycheck to paycheck when my mom got disabled, and that was the reason I first experienced homelessness. Thanks to that, I'm going to college and getting a fucking master's degree no matter how many student loans I have to take out. Theoretically everyone should be able to do that. THEORETICALLY. I'm sure there are exceptions or everyone would do this, right? That's the smart thing to do, right?

Perhaps.

I never recommend anyone get a degree for the sake of getting a degree.  Degrees can be overrated.  Few are actually a guarantee of anything.  And bear in mind that if, for whatever reason, you are unable to repay those student loans, the government will hound you to the ends of the Earth to collect.  Bankruptcy won't help you.  They can and will get judgments, garnish your wages, ruin your credit...basically make your financial life miserable.  I had a friend of mine in that boat tell me she wished she had borrowed the money from the Mob because at least then she'd have known where she stood.

[The Overlord]

I never recommend anyone get a degree for the sake of getting a degree.  Degrees can be overrated.  Few are actually a guarantee of anything.  And bear in mind that if, for whatever reason, you are unable to repay those student loans, the government will hound you to the ends of the Earth to collect.  Bankruptcy won't help you.  They can and will get judgments, garnish your wages, ruin your credit...basically make your financial life miserable.  I had a friend of mine in that boat tell me she wished she had borrowed the money from the Mob because at least then she'd have known where she stood.

I'm about through with school myself but I'm really not concerned on the loans. I'll get them paid back. If Plan A doesn't accomplish that goal then Plans B, C, or D eventually will. There's plenty of money to be had out there, it's just how we go about it.