Manslamming

[Angie]

Manslamming isn't simply something that appeared on someone's tumblr and which was reposted a dozen times or so. There's obviously the NYMag piece that started it but then you've got the Huffington Post and the Atlantic getting in on the act as well as the usual suspect list of tweets, tumblrs and lesser known blogs/websites.

I'm not sure how one can dismiss the Atlantic, NYMag and the Huffington Post as "fringe" femenism.

I can dismiss the HuffPo, but that's for a large number of reasons up to and including "your 'journalism' is pathetic". I should go through Reuters 10 standards of journalism and see how many HuffPo actually follow-I know they can't be as bad as Kotaku (who went 0 for 10) but they gotta be down there.

EDIT: That being said, I'm not sure what game the Atlantic and NYMag are playing, but I'm betting it has to do with something like this: "It's controversy! Never mind that it's weaksauce, we need those page views!"

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Pretty much the controversy one and a weak one at that.  As I said, the evidence presented is weak and the research done on the issue is even weaker.  None of them mention previous work done on the issue of men and dominating space or the issue regarding women being more apologetic than men.  Those are actually researched and supported positions, whereas this woman's little experiment is very weak and hardly supported at all.  So....they are kind of presenting a straw man here for people to burn against feminism so far as I can see.  A simple, "oh look at those silly women."

[kylie]

         I'm still not clear on what has people precisely soooo annoyed about it, though.  Maybe it's because I don't spend a great deal of time in places where the term is being batted about.  Though here, one suggestion seems to be that rather generally disgruntled men (I'd expect, often enough including rather crassly, broadly anti-feminism in general types) of one stripe or another are a good share of that tossing too.  Though I'm hardly surprised if there are also a few radical feminists going over the top in one corner somewhere...

OR maybe it's because people are trying a little too hard to pin down, shrug off or so-called "debunk" this very thing they're saying hasn't been formulated clearly enough yet.  Well then:  Putting it in that frame if you must...  What if it's not been modeled and discussed "neatly" enough (or long enough, or widely enough) for it to be pushed aside, either? 

         Just because some people aren't very comfortable with how widely it's been talked about...  Doesn't automatically mean there is no empirical truth to it.  And while I may couch things in terms like "behavioral analysis," that isn't intended to imply that one really must have a PhD and studies of 1,000 subjects in order to make a reasonable enough claim about how gender in society often, quite observably, does play out.

[Valthazar]

Pretty much the controversy one and a weak one at that.  As I said, the evidence presented is weak and the research done on the issue is even weaker.  None of them mention previous work done on the issue of men and dominating space or the issue regarding women being more apologetic than men.  Those are actually researched and supported positions, whereas this woman's little experiment is very weak and hardly supported at all.  So....they are kind of presenting a straw man here for people to burn against feminism so far as I can see.  A simple, "oh look at those silly women."

Not all aspects of feminism (or any social science) are based on evidence-based research, but a considerable portion is based on critical analyses, which tend to be subjective.  Concepts like "porn culture," for example, are polarizing analyses among feminists. 

"Manslamming" originated from "manspreading" which is far more accepted among feminist circles - although equally as perplexing and polarizing among feminists themselves.  The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) in NYC even started a campaign to end "man spreading."  How is it a straw man feminist argument when the MTA is launching official campaigns based on it?

[consortium11]

So....they are kind of presenting a straw man here for people to burn against feminism so far as I can see.  A simple, "oh look at those silly women."

A straw man is generally when someone from the other side of a debate tries to set up an easily defeated position that doesn't actually match what you're trying to say and then declares they've won because they've defeated that position.

I'm not sure it can be used to dismiss poor arguments from your own side. Unless we're arguing that all the people discussing manspreading as a serious femenist issue are actually false-flaggers trying to make femenism look silly then it isn't a straw man argument, it's just a bad argument and is a completely legitimate example for if people want to point out the rather silly things that often get mainstream feminist attention and support.

[Laughing Hyena]

To make this brief and might be off topic but: Assholes are unisex.

[Oniya]

To make this brief and might be off topic but: Assholes are unisex.

That was about what I said - just shorter.  :D

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Actually, hard sciences are likewise not entirely based on evidenced based experimentation and practice.  Much of that work is done first as qualitative study and then later as quantitative.  Just wanting to clear up that little oversight there.  I also never said feminism was based on evidenced based practice, just simply that this entire thing is based around that idea when this woman decided to do her experiment. 

I am using straw man in the sense that people want to beat up a poorly held argument or issue, which is really just an observation and then apply this to other avenues of feminism.  Such as, in this case, man spreading.  While a horrible term, this notion of men dominating the space around them has been observed for quite some time in social sciences and is really an obvious thing.  Erving Goffman is the first social scientist I’m aware of to publish something on this behavior, but is by far not the last to do so. 

[AndyZ]

In my experience, throw enough bad arguments at something and it tends to destroy the argument even when other issues continue to exist.

I believe I can say with certainty that issues do exist with the divide, and that this is not one of them.

It's the same way that girls who make up traumatic stories ultimately make things far worse for the girls who actually do have those traumatic things happen to them.

Now, my question would be: how can people work on selectively removing stories that are bogus without cheapening the movement in the process?

I do feel that it's better to point them out quickly.  A bad story has a way of festering.  For example, by the time people learn that Kony is long gone, the last thing they want to do is look to aid in all the current problems Uganda faces.

I would hypothesize that it would be better to have someone who is a member of the group doing the addressing.  For example, if we had someone in the KKK who was causing issues, they're just too racist to talk to people who aren't white.  I can hardly speak for men, but I can personally say that I have zero issue with someone speaking up for me if they have the opportunity to do so.

Beyond that, I welcome suggestions.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I always find it interesting that people are more interested in disproving false rape accusations than proving real ones.

[Silk]

I always find it interesting that people are more interested in disproving false rape accusations than proving real ones.

Because the vast majority of the time rape charges are guilty until proven innocent. Especially outside of law settings, just the claim of rape is enough to destroy some peoples lives and careers even if it's a false claim.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

That is a completely false claim.  The amount of rape cases that go unreported, unprosecuted despite evidence far outnumber the amount of rapes cases that are proven false.  False reports of a rape are the same number as burglary, but nobody is screaming that burglary cases are overwhelmingly false.  Far more women have their lives ruined by being raped and then being unable to prosecute that rapist. 

[Silk]

That is a completely false claim.  The amount of rape cases that go unreported, unprosecuted despite evidence far outnumber the amount of rapes cases that are proven false.  False reports of a rape are the same number as burglary, but nobody is screaming that burglary cases are overwhelmingly false.  Far more women have their lives ruined by being raped and then being unable to prosecute that rapist.

And your source for those statistics, because there is a hell of a lot of controversy over such definitions of rape, (example one study claims that 20% of girls in college are the victim of rape, until you find that they classify that if they are under the influence of alcohol during sex, it's automatically rape.)

Also how do we know what  the unreported rates are? Thats a estimate at best and a guess at worst.

Burglary unlike rape isn't tied to a global passtime, and more often than not has substantially higher evidence that the event that took place was in fact a crime.

And because women have their lives ruined by rape makes it ok for men to be "legally" ruined by false accusations flung around by it? It's gotten to a point in the UK that the police have had to enact legislation to punish false rape claims due to the high volume of cases under wasting police time and slander.

Also when it comes to rape there is a lot of susceptibility over what constitutes as evidence. Proof of sexual intercourse? Doesn't necessarily mean rape, just because it was regretted afterwards doesn't mean it invalidates consent of the time (which is where issues of alcohol comes in). Which is the key issue when it comes to rape cases, since the majority of cases tend to devolve into one persons claim over another. Which then the law has a obligation to take the null hypothesis of it not happening.

By reducing the amount of false rape cases that are being thrown into the system will only increase the legitimacy of real ones as there will be less overall suspicion of a false claim being made. Because when I hear groups of girls talking about how they can blackmail a guy to do what they want or cry rape because they had intercourse previously, or when my brother get's arrested at his doorstep over a baseless rape claim, and lost his job as a teacher as a result. Something is hella wrong.

[Omnius]

I have seen both. An ex girl friend of a friend of mine tried to tell other people he raped her after they broke up (she was cheating on him) I have also seen times where despite bad things going on for multiple years and and being arrested several times nothing manages to stick.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

So bad in the United Kingdoms?  According to research done Crown Prosecution Service in 2011 and 2012 in Wales and England showed that 35 cases of women alleging rape were then prosecuted for making a false allegation.  This is out of over five thousand cases.  The report goes on to state in conclusion that while the myth of rape allegations is that they are rife with false reporting, this is simply not the case. 

Also, doesn’t work well to ask for statistics and then give a personal anecdote.  I can easily counter that with my experience of having over ten women in my emergency department PECed for attempted suicide due to rape.  Half of those women were actually girls under the age of 16 and one was forced into prostitution by their mother.  That is within my few short months of working in the Emergency Department and with me taking random patient assignments.

I am also not denying that a man having his life ruined by false accusation is a tragedy.  Certainly I feel for those men and condemn those women for doing that as this does indeed hurt the process for women making true accusations.  Yet I do not agree that every time rape is mentioned someone rushes forth to perpetrate the myth that false allegations are rampant.  That is simply placing more pressure on the women stepping forward as they now have to fight off a false myth that they are probably making a false report.

[Silk]

Except I didn't claim my personal anecdote to be anything besides a personal example, when you are talking about national based statistics.

[eternaldarkness]

I always find it interesting that people are more interested in disproving false rape accusations than proving real ones.

Better a million guilty men go free than even one be unjustly prosecuted.

The reason I say this is simple:  in our culture, rape has been given so much power and elevated to such levels of unspeakable horror beyond its actual impact that it is almost better to be accused of murder than of rape. Just being accused of rape, even if you are later found not to be guilty of it, will ruin your life forever (if you are a male). We have given rape far too much power, and need to collectively, as human beings, take a step back and really look at how we are viewing the crime itself.

[Cycle]

We have given rape far too much power, and need to collectively, as human beings, take a step back and really look at how we are viewing the crime itself.

I disagree.  We are not treating rape too seriously.  We are not treating murder seriously enough.

[Valthazar]

I disagree.  We are not treating rape too seriously.  We are not treating murder seriously enough.

I agree with you.  But even our legal code makes rape penalties more serious.

You could murder someone, and then move on with your life 25 years later - essentially living anywhere you want, starting fresh, and explaining that your past is behind you (and actually garner respect for a new beginning, and a new outlook).  We only need to look at the numerous ex-gang members who have become prominent public speakers and authors.

However, if you are convicted of raping someone, our culture relegates them to social pariah status for life - assigning them sex offender status till their death.

[Cycle]

You could murder someone, and then move on with your life 25 years later - essentially living anywhere you want, starting fresh, and explaining that your past is behind you (and actually garner respect for a new beginning, and a new outlook). 

Yes, we should relegates murderers to social pariah status for life too.  Time to update the laws.

[AndyZ]

There's a good reason we used to go by the "innocent until proven guilty" concept.  Honestly, I'd rather go back to it.

If we're going to be honest with ourselves, we have no idea how many of the rape charges put forward are wholly or partly falsified.  However, every falsified rape charge cheapens the traumatic impact that actual rape victims go through.

In the same way, idiotic claims about sexism cheapen what actual feminists are trying to fix.  Your average cismale is going to hear the one in five number and be horrified, then do some research and figure that he knows quite a few men who have had sex while drunk, most likely more than 1 in 5.  He'll then figure that it can't be that big of an issue if they have to inflate it that way.

My question is what we can do to get rid of these kinds of things so they stop cheapening the feminist movement.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

So I suppose a woman that has been raped should simply deal with her victimization and get over this because rape just isn’t that bad right?  Really, rape just is an elevated crime that men and women should just get over because really, is it so bad?  Seriously that is the most ignorant statement I have read in some time.  Our culture has done nearly everything in recent history to keep rape from even being acknowledged and only recently made raping a spouse illegal, though still difficult to prosecute.  Our culture has not demonized rape, but placed it mainstream with people openly making jokes about raping women and rapping about the act on popular musical charts.  Rape is a common term for gamers to use when describing their dominance over another player and is featured regularly for television plots and entertainment.

Men are still rarely acknowledged as even being able to be raped and women are often seen as “wanting it” or falsifying their reports.  Women drop charges against their rapists constantly or don’t press them at all because most rape is acquaintance rape and they don’t want to get the man in trouble.  Women are told to live in fear of men, to avoid drinking at parties, to avoid having too much fun, to avoid cameras on phones, to dress appropriately, to avoid going out late, and to restrict their entire lives because of rape.  So do not give me this righteous garbage of a million men going free to avoid unjustly prosecuting one, because just as many of those women live in fear or suffer because of those million. 

Also, if we are unable to give numbers on false reports then why bring them up as cheapening the entire feminist movement?  Seems to me that the falsified reports in the United Kingdoms report were as close to nil as one can get, but the myth still propagates.   The reason for the myth is because men are not afraid of being raped, but afraid of being accused of rape.  So they push this image of women lying and using the power of rape over them, when in fact this rarely happens.  Just as now.

[AndyZ]

Let's say that a shepherd village has wolves running around.  Wolves are really bad for a shepherd village, because they'll eat sheep and the village will be devastated by a loss of livelihood.

Let's also say that one kid who was watching the village sheep decides that he's bored and wants to pretend that he's seen a wolf.  He'll rile up the townsfolk and they'll get weapons ready, but there's no actual wolves.  The people of the village are not going to like being tricked, and their response of how bad wolves are will be notably diminished when they discover how easy it is to fake a wolf attack.

While the reflexive response of someone who's seen a wolf is going to be to throw everything at the problem to stop it, the reflexive response of someone who hasn't seen a wolf but has seen people falsely crying wolf is to disbelieve anyone who cries wolf.

Such is the problem that forms.  We all rightly claim that one rape is too many, but not everyone claims that one false cry of rape is too many.

But the problem is, look what happens.  We don't get to dedicate all our resources to stamping out wolves because we have people crying wolf, and we have to go into the deep effort of determining what really happened.

That's why it's so important, when wolves are bad, to go after the people who falsely cry wolf.


From what I've seen here, people agree that there are many problems that women have which should be addressed, and "manslamming" is not one of them.  This is likewise akin to crying wolf, because people will wonder whether this is truly the extent of problems that women face if it's what they're hearing about.  When that one gets disproven, it damages the feminist movement as a whole.

Every false cry of wolf makes it harder for anyone to deal with actual wolves.


I will say that as far as television, I would be quite pleased if everyone stopped watching Lifetime because they got sick of its portrayal of women and it went off the air.

Also, as a biological male, I'd much rather be actually raped than be accused of rape, and I'm still a virgin and it holds religious meaning for me.  I can much more easily deal with the emotional trauma than with the stigma of being thought a rapist and all the legal crap that comes from it.

[Shjade]

Problem whenever someone brings up the boy who cries wolf story in this context:

The moral of that story is that if YOU lie, no one will believe YOU later.

It's not "If YOU lie about wolves, no one will believe ANYONE about wolves."

In other words, if you're using someone having made a false rape claim as an excuse to first assume anyone who makes such a claim is making it up, you're not just acting out of some kind of healthy skepticism formed by a history of someone having lied about being raped at some point in the past. You're not working off of "innocent until proven guilty," either.

You're just choosing who you think is guilty without proof first. Specifically, you're deciding the alleged rapist is innocent until proven guilty, whereas his accuser is guilty (of lying) until proven innocent.

This is known as hypocrisy.

[Silk]

It's still a matter of once burned twice shy. Think of it from the context of a police officer who almost ruins and often does, ruin someones life because someone lied to them to make use of their obligation to investigate. Also considering how often rape is paraded around as a word by people "See "Eye-rape"" while at the same time comparing it to a crime worse than some of the greatest war atrocities in history. It's going to leave people confused as to what the hells going on a lot of the time with some real loose statistics to back it up. A friend of mine kind of sums up a lot of the current situation for rape in my opinion.

If the woman is drunk and the man isn't he raped her because she couldn't give consent, If the man is drunk and the woman isn't, he raped her because obviously his inhibitions are hampered by the alcohol. If they're both drunk or neither are, he raped her because he's obviously physically superior and since women are forever oppressed by the patriarchy that it is impossible to give consent even when they're giving consent. Each with comments which support each stance in some way or form. Hell even things like "Teach men not to rape" initiatives are a form of manslamming because it goes on the premise that guys don't realize rape is a bad thing, I mean really? Seriously? The problem is those that do commit rape don't care if its a wrong thing, and the ones who do care that its a wrong thing don't do it anyway.