Canada's own version of George Jr.

[Dakfrost]

So, appearently we Canadian's just can't help but imitate our friends to the south. Just as you had the son of a former president run for the top job  (and in your case, win), we in Canada now have the son of a former Prime Minister running for leadership of our Liberal party. Justin Trudeau is the son of former, and very divisive Prime Minister, Pierre Trudeau.

I could draw some similarities to the two Juniors, like the fact that they pale in comparison to their fathers intelligence, but I just wanted to see what some of the other members thought of this new developement in Canadian politics.

Cheers

[Moraline]

I have to disagree on a couple of points.

George W Bush was a moron that couldn't spell.

Justin Trudeau is articulate and intelligent.

The two of them can't be compared. GW Bush was a coke snorting drunk that should have never been allowed to run for any political office.

Also I must inform you that I am a bit biased because I also think Justin is incredibly adorable.


As for both of their fathers... I actually respect both of them for very different reasons.

[Dakfrost]

I have to disagree on a couple of points.

George W Bush was a moron that couldn't spell.

Justin Trudeau is articulate and intelligent.

The two of them can't be compared. GW Bush was a coke snorting drunk that should have never been allowed to run for any political office.

Also I must inform you that I am a bit biased because I also think Justin is incredibly adorable.


As for both of their fathers... I actually respect both of them for very different reasons.

I didn't say Justin wasn't intelligent, just nowhere near as accomplished as his father was. I'm sure he's a fairly smart guy, but there's a big difference between him and his father.

My point is, both juniors rode the coattails of their fathers to their benefit rather then having to find success through their own merit.

[Sel Nar]

Considering the fact that the liberal party got TROUNCED hard in the recent federal election, to the point of losing nearly 2/3rds of their seats, (along with the parti Quebecois) to the NDP and Conservative party members, they're likely going to lean hard on Trudeau's family name as a reason to push for him as leader of the party. But, at the same time, Justin Trudeau, while he doesn't have the political acumen of his father, has been rather successful in his time as a journalist, and is very intelligent in his own right.

It is unfair to assume that, like Bush Jr., Trudeau is less-intelligent than his father; He just applied his intelligence in a different venue and has far less political experience than his family name might suggest. On top of that, the Trudeau family has long held a history of working for the benefit of blue-collar workers nationwide, and, while occasionally divisive in means, do what they think is best for the nation, regardless of political popularity (see Pierre-Elliot's infamous comment of 'Just watch me' when activating the War Measures Act in 1970 to deal with one of the only cases of Domestic Terrorism in Canada).

While I disagree with the liberal party on several grounds, and tend to be a small-c conservative on a federal and provincial level in my voting trends, I feel that Justin Trudeau, unlike many US politicians, can, at the very least, say what the average price of a load of bread, or a pound of beef is at the local grocery store. He's what the liberal party needs; Proof that the party wants more than WASP Old Rich folks running the show. And, while I may have opinions running counter to what the Liberal platrofm operates on, I wish him the best of luck, because, at the least, he'll be able to shake up the party's status quo a bit. Plus he'd be far better than Stephane Dion.

Edit: Dakfrost; re-read your first post.

I could draw some similarities to the two Juniors, like the fact that they pale in comparison to their fathers intelligence.

Bush Junior rode his daddy's coattails to the White House. Justin Trudeau refused to enter politics until he was good and ready, spent years as a successful journalist, and only the most cynical americanized political pundits would say Justin is riding his father's coattails to success because Justin has pointedly refused to invoke the name of his (deceased) father in his announcement of his candiacy for Liberal leadership in Canada.

[Moraline]

I didn't say Justin wasn't intelligent, just nowhere near as accomplished as his father was. I'm sure he's a fairly smart guy, but there's a big difference between him and his father.

My point is, both juniors rode the coattails of their fathers to their benefit rather then having to find success through their own merit.

It's true but that can't very well be helped. It's not their fault that their fathers were successful.

On that same note though, Justin turned down several opportunities to run for political leadership over the last several years. He opted to get himself into the political system and learn more about it first and wait for the right time to run. I would say that shows some good common sense.

Besides at this point and time the Canadian political system is boring beyond all belief. I suppose in some ways that's a good thing but we need a little star power and some fiery PE Trudeau style politics to shake things up and get people engaged again.

I really don't think the Canadian political system has been all that interesting during my lifetime. It's been nothing but a bunch of old men.

Canada has only two types of politicians. Boring and Annoying.

[Dakfrost]

Pierre was an associate professor of law who was a well regarded intellectual and worked his way up the political ladder from serving on the privy council of Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent as an economic adviser to helping establish the NDP as a federal party before being recruited by the Liberals to run for office.

Justin Trudeau has a Bachelor of Arts degree in literature from McGill University and a Bachelor of Education degree from the University of British Columbia. After graduation, he worked as a social studies and French teacher at West Point Grey Academy and Sir Winston Churchill Secondary School in Vancouver, British Columbia then proceeded to use his father's fame to enter politics.

I see a vast difference in experience and ability and the nepotism that the Liberal party has shown in regards to Justin actually offends me.

[Moraline]

You missed a few things.

Justin also studied Engineering for a couple of years on top of his education and work. He also started his Master of Arts degree in Environmental Geography. Collectively that's enough uni credits to be worth another bachelor's degree. So to me, I see someone with a diverse educational background. That's a good thing.

To me, being a lawyer isn't really that impressive. I prefer to see a politician who knows something a bit more about life then political law.

When it gets down to it, I think lawyers make horrible politicians... but that's another discussion entirely.

Either way... still.. you can't compare him to GW.  GW is only about 10 IQ points above being mentally challenged, he was rude, self-righteous, ignorant, and a spoiled brat.

Justin so far has proven himself to be articulate, thoughtful and conscientious.

[Dakfrost]

Justin also studied Engineering for a couple of years on top of his education and work. He also started his Master of Arts degree in Environmental Geography. Collectively that's enough uni credits to be worth another bachelor's degree. So to me, I see someone with a diverse educational background. That's a good thing.

I see things quite differently. I find it hard to believe that someone who is excelling in Engineering would give up two years worth of tuition and education willingly. I find it far more plausible that he wasn't able to maintain the required grades to achieve a degree in Engineering. That also goes for his attempt at a Master's Degree in Environmental Geography. I hardly seeing quitting as a positive attribute.

Yes, he can speak clearly. But I find him self righteous and pretentious.

[Moraline]

I disagree.

I have two years of my engineering degree before I moved onto something else as well. It's very common.

In Canada - You see engineering is broken up into your first 2 years which grants a special degree diploma.

The diploma covers all of your core science concepts and grounds you in engineering science. Engineering is a much more intensive degree then most so as part of that you'll receive course work and a course load that is almost the equivalent of a 3 year science degree.

After you've completed this first 2 years of intensive course work you then move onto the final 3 years. Here you are subject again to a much heavier course load then most degree courses. You also choose your specialty at this time (Aeronautics, Electrical, Electronics, Civil, Mechanical, Robotics, etc....)



What Justin did was get his core science credits through the engineering diploma to ready himself for a science based subject. It was a smart move because it left him with options. He choose to pursue a Masters in another field.

This was interrupted by politics.

He didn't quit anything, he heeded the calling of a political party that he was actively involved in already. His party "The Liberals" needed him and he answered the call.

I would say that coming to the rescue of something that you believe in is a good thing.



Of course, I should break at this point to say that is all supposition. I go only by the facts and information that I have at my fingertips and my own personal experiences.

Life is more complicated then making a simple assumption that because he stopped a couple degrees that he's some sort of quitter. That's an easy and unlikely answer.

After all he had already completed 2 degrees before. Most people can't say they've even completed one, let alone 2.

[Dakfrost]

I disagree.

I have two years of my engineering degree before I moved onto something else as well. It's very common.

In Canada - You see engineering is broken up into your first 2 years which grants a special degree diploma.

The diploma covers all of your core science concepts and grounds you in engineering science. Engineering is a much more intensive degree then most so as part of that you'll receive course work and a course load that is almost the equivalent of a 3 year science degree.

After you've completed this first 2 years of intensive course work you then move onto the final 3 years. Here you are subject again to a much heavier course load then most degree courses. You also choose your specialty at this time (Aeronautics, Electrical, Electronics, Civil, Mechanical, Robotics, etc....)

I myself am an Industrial Engineer (P.Eng) (University of Regina) and I know how intensive the course load is. I also know that an BA is much easier to get.

I applaud him for going back and getting an after degree in Education, I know several people with BA's who have done the same.

That said, unless he himself declares why he left the Engineering program and failed to complete his Master's degree, the fact he enrolled in them can't be considered as proof of his intellect.

[Chris Brady]

I have a question for you all, you do know that Bush Jr. was a Texas National Air Guard PILOT, right?  He flew F-102 fighter jets.  FIGHTER PLANES!

Not to mention that he's got an MBA under his belt.

He has a Master degree of Business Administration AND he flew fighter planes.  He can't be that stupid if he could do that!

So why do people think he was?  Was it because of his accent?  His slow manner of speech?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his, but all this talk about him being stupid is confusing me.

[Moraline]

I have a question for you all, you do know that Bush Jr. was a Texas National Air Guard PILOT, right?  He flew F-102 fighter jets.  FIGHTER PLANES!

Not to mention that he's got an MBA under his belt.

He has a Master degree of Business Administration AND he flew fighter planes.  He can't be that stupid if he could do that!

So why do people think he was?  Was it because of his accent?  His slow manner of speech?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his, but all this talk about him being stupid is confusing me.

It was because of his lack of an ability to articulate what he was saying and the decisions that he made.

Here's 50 reasons

50. "I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here." --at the President's Economic Forum in Waco, Texas, Aug. 13, 2002

49. "We spent a lot of time talking about Africa, as we should. Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease." --Gothenburg, Sweden, June 14, 2001

48. "You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test." -Townsend, Tenn., Feb. 21, 2001

47. "I am here to make an announcement that this Thursday, ticket counters and airplanes will fly out of Ronald Reagan Airport." --Washington, D.C., Oct. 3, 2001

46. "Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." --Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004 (Watch video clip)

45. "I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding the joy of Hanukkah." --at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001 (Listen to audio clip)

44. "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

43. "The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the ones who attacked us in America on September the 11th." --Washington, D.C., July 12, 2007

42. "I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being president." --as quoted in Bob Woodward's Bush at War

41. "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." --discussing the Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson in 2003, as quoted by Robertson

40. 3. "I think I was unprepared for war." –on the biggest regret of his presidency, ABC News interview, Dec. 1, 2008

39. "I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me." --talking to key Republicans about Iraq, as quoted by Bob Woodward

38. "I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft." --presidential debate, St. Louis, Mo., Oct. 8, 2004 (Watch video clip)

37. "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." --Greater Nashua, N.H., Chamber of Commerce, Jan. 27, 2000 (Listen to audio clip)

36. "Do you have blacks, too?" --to Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso, Washington, D.C., Nov. 8, 2001

35. "This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating." --as quoted by the New York Daily News, April 23, 2002

34. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." --on "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from Hurricane Katrina

33. "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." --Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

32. "I would say the best moment of all was when I caught a 7.5 pound largemouth bass in my lake." --on his best moment in office, interview with the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, May 7, 2006

31. "They misunderestimated me." --Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000

continued...  source

[Dakfrost]

I have a question for you all, you do know that Bush Jr. was a Texas National Air Guard PILOT, right?  He flew F-102 fighter jets.  FIGHTER PLANES!

Not to mention that he's got an MBA under his belt.

He has a Master degree of Business Administration AND he flew fighter planes.  He can't be that stupid if he could do that!

So why do people think he was?  Was it because of his accent?  His slow manner of speech?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of his, but all this talk about him being stupid is confusing me.

I fully agree, I think the misconception about his intelligence is a strawman for the political left. My point is that he wasn't as intelligent as his father, just like Justin Trudeau. If anything, George Jr is most likely smarter then Justin. (Now that will get me a lot of hate from my fellow Canadians!)

[Moraline]

...George Jr is most likely smarter then Justin. (Now that will get me a lot of hate from my fellow Canadians!)

I think I just posted 50 reasons why that isn't true.

[Dakfrost]

I think I just posted 50 reasons why that isn't true.

You said he was intelligent, articulate, and adorable. I said he had a BA and a B.Ed(2 year after degree from most Universities in Canada). None of that proves he is more intelligent.

My point is that without his last name he would still be a substitute teacher. But luckily for him, nepotism is alive and well in the Liberal party of Canada.

[Moraline]

But so far that's your only point on comparing him and GW.

You have one point so far and it's not even a valid point. So far all you've proven is that he has a better then moderate level of education.

I then went on to show how he has several additional uni credits to prove he has more then just that basic level of Uni education. Which is only mildly relevant to intelligence - since education is a poor indicator of intelligence.

That brings us back to the part where you try to compare him to GW.

I then gave 50 reasons why GW is a moron, but you have none to show how or why in anyway that Justin is comparable to this.



So far you've given no reasons or argument to prove there is anything wrong with Justin as a politician. So, far I see him as no better or worse then any others.



It's true, I like Justin cause he's cute.

I actually think most politicians are dirty scum sucking maggots and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he was one too. ... but that remains to be seen and your tossing him in the basket with all the other scum without giving him a chance.

You have no evidence or proof of anything wrong with him as a man or a politician (which aren't the same things.)

I'll reserve my official final judgement on him for later. Until then, he seems sincere and intelligent so far.

[Chris Brady]

It was because of his lack of an ability to articulate what he was saying and the decisions that he made.

Mora, I write better than I speak.  I am much more articulate here (the internet chat system, or just writing in general) and I appear much smarter here, than I do whenever I speak.

And really?  Just 50?  Have you seen what the American GOP?  Or Mitt Romney's foot stuffing into his own mouth?

[Moraline]

Mora, I write better than I speak.  I am much more articulate here (the internet chat system, or just writing in general) and I appear much smarter here, than I do whenever I speak.

And really?  Just 50?  Have you seen what the American GOP?  Or Mitt Romney's foot stuffing into his own mouth?

HAHA... actually I haven't but I've noticed people talking about it here.

*edit* I try not to follow politics to much myself but my Father is a professor and author of social sciences and he just loves this type of stuff. I've been subjected to this stuff my whole life.

[Dakfrost]

My point is that both George Jr. and Justin are less then what their fathers were and that without their fathers, they would not have had a chance at the success they've had.

That's makes them similar.

Cry as you might, if it wasn't for his last name, Justin would never have had a chance at winning an election. There is nothing remarkable about him besides who conceived him.

[Moraline]

There's nothing remarkable about any of the politicians in our system currently. You still don't have any valid points against him.

What did the others do to deserve their elected posts? They are not remarkable either.

I think you'll find that most (not all) but most of them come from privileged families, they had businesses or politics given to them by families.

Justin is no different and no less then any of them. With the exception that he's not proven himself to be a douchewhistle yet.

What is it that you have against him?

[Dakfrost]

What is it that you have against him?

I guess I find nepotism deplorable in regards to those who represent Canadians on the political stage. Justin's sense of entitlement just cements it.

[Chris Brady]

Personally, I believe that politics is a joke.  And the sad part of it is it's not the politicians, but the PUBLIC, the VOTERS that make it so.

[Moraline]

I guess I find nepotism deplorable in regards to those who represent Canadians on the political stage. Justin's sense of entitlement just cements it.

So that's plenty or reason to dislike all of the other spoiled brat politicians that have rode their parents coat tails to various levels of office and positions of business power.

..But Justin has no apparent sense of entitlement. He has refused on prior occasions to run for leadership based on his father's name, he refused to evoke his father's name at any level so far and it seems pretty obvious that so far he hasn't used his father's name to get himself a cushy job in some fancy well paying business office either. Instead he choose to be a humble school teacher.

Somehow, I think your dislike of the system is being misplaced on a single individual instead of the entire system where it belongs.

It reminds of the saying, "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

Personally, I believe that politics is a joke.  And the sad part of it is it's not the politicians, but the PUBLIC, the VOTERS that make it so.

People are sheeple, you gotta give them something to believe in, but the whole system is corrupted by the scent of money and power.

There's no one of value and worth to vote for.

Our democratic world needs a hero, a champion of change and reform to rescue us from ourselves. Give us something to believe in and someone to vote for.

[Dakfrost]

..But Justin has no apparent sense of entitlement. He has refused on prior occasions to run for leadership based on his father's name, he refused to evoke his father's name at any level so far and it seems pretty obvious that so far he hasn't used his father's name to get himself a cushy job in some fancy well paying business office either. Instead he choose to be a humble school teacher.

Really? You think running for leadership of a political party when you have almost no experience besides spending the better part of a decade in school and then a few years teaching isn't a display of entitlement?

Regardless of how well he articulates in public compared to George Jr., Justin is nothing more then a fluff candidate that the Liberals know will put them in the limelight with the hope of recreating some of the mania that surrounded his father. I think Canadians will see him for what he is.

[Moraline]

What I see is a man that has been begged by his party members for over 10 years to run and he finally decided to do it. How long do you think he should have kept refusing them?

Being in politics for 25+ years doesn't make them better politicians, it just makes them old politicians.

This is the flaw in the logic about politics, assuming that politicians have to be old and have spent years in the system to be good at it or entitled to the position.

An old politician is just old - sure he might know all the lobbyists and have memorized all the legalities but that's not what makes a good politician. On the contrary, that's what makes them stagnant and useless. They are trying to follow all the rules and do everything the way all of the other people in the system want them to do it.

Being fresh in the system can be a benefit - being in touch with the people and not far removed or isolated will get you a political leader that can still remember the voice of the people. Still remember what the ordinary citizen wants and needs and not end up being influenced by lobbyists pressing made up statistics in front of your face or stuffing your pockets with money.

Being fresh means you can still have the life left in you to be an idealist.

Forget the old stogy stuck in the past politicians. Shake shit up and look to the future. The world is changing and it's doing it faster then ever.

We need new systems, new laws, new reforms before it's too late... if it isn't too late already.