Pathfinder MMO

[Callie Del Noire]

Environment Demo

Interesting considering they took like 6 months to code it up.

[Renegade Vile]

Aaaan I fell through a wall and got stuck *laughs*

The chief problem with MMO's is that they rarely have any RPG elements in them, sometimes even less than single player RPGs. Pathfinder's still an RPG system and translating the setting just for action purposes leaves out so much of what it offers. Also, this environment took them that long to code? They're using Unity, 3/4s of the work has been done for them...

[Chris Brady]

It's going to be a free to play title, yes?

I mean, it looks cute, but it's nothing that DDO or Age of Conan haven't done already.

[Skynet]

According to the rpg.net thread, (can't find the posts) the developers seemed relatively unconcerned about potential griefing.  In the MMO, people can play as Chaotic Evil bandits and cultists and attack other players unprovoked.  This is not conductive to a healthy online environment, and Dancy and crew thinks that "the community will regulate itself."

Didn't work for EVE Online, won't work for Pathfinder.

[Chris Brady]

Dancy?  As in Ryan Dancy?  The man behind the debacle that was the OGL?  And the one who nearly sunk the confidence in White Wolf, by calling it a 'legacy'?

The man still works in the RPG industry?  And now he's working for Paizo?

OK, then, time to avoid this.

[Renegade Vile]

According to the rpg.net thread, (can't find the posts) the developers seemed relatively unconcerned about potential griefing.  In the MMO, people can play as Chaotic Evil bandits and cultists and attack other players unprovoked.  This is not conductive to a healthy online environment, and Dancy and crew thinks that "the community will regulate itself."

Didn't work for EVE Online, won't work for Pathfinder.

Indeed. Most players are inherently, forgive my bad language, assholes and need some form of regulation enforced upon them or they'll tear each other apart. Either the person got screwed over in some form before and is now frustrated and out for a vengeance, or the person was just a badly behaving player to begin with. No matter the choices, this isn't a good design idea AT ALL.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"This seems completely contrary to what I've seen and read. First, the environment demo is not remotely a good example of what they're doing with the game yet. It's basically just the first draft, and the bulk of the strength of the game isn't in graphics. I seriously can't stand the idea that a game cannot be graphically subpar and still be far better than anything out there (I've never once spent hours discussing how 'nice' my favorite game looked...)"

"Players often are assholes, but I've seen enough to believe Goblinworks intends to curb that behavior. They're the first company that I've seen that seems to take a strong view to being an active part of their game world."

"The environment demo is a terrible way to point out anything about this game. I'm willing to admit I'm skeptical about the ability for Goblinworks to pull off what they want to do (which is to create an MMO where the G caters to the RP). However, if no one supports the games that try (and maybe inevitably fail), all we'll get is shitty WoW style theme park games forever."

"Even if it's just to support a push in the right direction, they could use a boost: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo. Of note, they don't need that kickstarter to succeed, the game's on track to be made either way. The Kickstarter is full of goodies that aren't even related to the MMO (and goodies that are)."

[Callie Del Noire]

With mere HOURS left. They got it funded. While I have reservations on the game I will say this. This shows the big boys out there that there IS interest in MMOs not modeled on WoW.

[Skynet]

I really don't know if it will work out (I'm not impressed so far), but I wish them the best all the same.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"Thank the fans for that too, it's amazing. 11th hour boosts are common on Kickstarter, but to get over $100k in less than a day is fricken amazing."

"As I said, I have my skepticism, but if this game manages to pull off most of its promises, the value of not only a sandbox MMO, but a fan-funded one, will pave a strong path for future MMOs."

[Ignaddio]

According to the rpg.net thread, (can't find the posts) the developers seemed relatively unconcerned about potential griefing.  In the MMO, people can play as Chaotic Evil bandits and cultists and attack other players unprovoked.  This is not conductive to a healthy online environment, and Dancy and crew thinks that "the community will regulate itself."

Didn't work for EVE Online, won't work for Pathfinder.

Didn't work for EVE? It's still working for EVE. EVE's relative lack of moderation when it comes to player interaction is amazing.

[Callie Del Noire]

1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training.

2. No Classes- Unlike other games that give you a narrow range of abilities as you train your class, in Pathfinder you gain levels in different Roles based off what you have trained.

3. Player Structures- Build your own homes, taverns, farms, and even cities! The Pathfinder Online world will be filled with places players can use to build and customize their own homes, businesses and communities.

4. More Than A Gankfest- Unlike other Open World PVP MMO's currently on the market, Pathfinder Online actively discourages meaningless PVP. A meaningful alignment system that actually offers mechanical advantages to lawful and good aligned organizations, and a functional bounty system that allows the player to choose which players and organizations can collect the bounties they set discourages random and meaningless killing. Beyond this, the admins are taking a hard stance against 'griefing', in which players specifically seek to ruin the experience of other players, often through using game mechanics in ways that weren't intended. Griefing in PFO can be a bannable offence.

5. All Players are Useful- This won't be like games where a new player has 49 health and a veteran has 49,000. The attacks from that new player won't automatically miss the veteran. A new player will be weaker, but still able to make a meaningful contribution to combat. As a sandbox where group sizes aren't limited, this means all players are useful, and don't have to segregate themselves by level.

6. Trade is Meaningful- In Pathfinder Online players must manually transport items to their intended destination. Most shops are player-run, and there will be goods more abundant in or even exclusive to certain regions. Merchants, traders, and even auctioneers are all viable professions.

I don't think it's going to be THAT bad pvp wise.

[Skynet]

But can you still play as CE bandits, cultists, and other such folk who routinely attack others unprovoked?  What about thief players who steal from other players?

At what point does "role-playing" become griefing?

[Callie Del Noire]

But can you still play as CE bandits, cultists, and other such folk who routinely attack others unprovoked?  What about thief players who steal from other players?

At what point does "role-playing" become griefing?

About the 12th time in a day you kill the same character that is 10 levels below you, tea bag them and offer you a bag full of their heads.. before you kill them again.  (UO pvp griefing at it's best)

[Ignaddio]

Honestly, I'm not all that opposed to griefing in an MA game. Presumably if you're playing an MA game you're mature enough to handle the game environment, and I think part of maturity is learning how to cope with griefers.

[Callie Del Noire]

I do think you should have some method of avoiding them though. Not everyone wants to lose ..say .. a TRILLION ISK to some gatesitting sleeze in a million and a half isk cruiser who is wiling to take the hit to loot the flaming wreckage of a a builders two year work train to get up to being a dreadnaught componet builder.

That was why I quit EVE.. my understanding is said gate camping sleeze spent the next six weeks.. (along with most of his pirate corp buddies..) regretting it as my client for the parts he destroyed..took it out of his ass. repeatedly.

[Ignaddio]

Without knowing the situation, I can't really make a judgement call, but it sounds like you didn't take the necessary steps to secure your haul. A T1 Cruiser doesn't really have the gank to take out the more secure vessels (Blockade Runners, Freighters, some of the tankier T1 transport fits) in hi-sec before Concord arrives. If you were AFK'ing or autopiloting, that's your fault. If you were in low or null, there's honestly no excuse; you took the risk.

Incidentally, what you described sounds less like griefing and more like typical profiteering.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"The answer to 'When does 'RP' become griefing?' is simple: It's the moment when a person exploits the nature of the game (and ignores the spirit of role-play) to detract consistently from other players' fun. On the flip side, the spirit of RP is not to always win, so if you can't lose sometimes and still have fun, you're also violating the spirit of the game."

"So, if your argument is, 'I'm RPing', and being a total dick. Goblinworks should happily reply with, 'Okay, we're RPing Pharasma and she just revoked your resurrection priveleges' (this is an actual concept within the game's RP). Then they kill you and boot you, and they 'RPed' it."

[Callie Del Noire]

Without knowing the situation, I can't really make a judgement call, but it sounds like you didn't take the necessary steps to secure your haul. A T1 Cruiser doesn't really have the gank to take out the more secure vessels (Blockade Runners, Freighters, some of the tankier T1 transport fits) in hi-sec before Concord arrives. If you were AFK'ing or autopiloting, that's your fault. If you were in low or null, there's honestly no excuse; you took the risk.

Incidentally, what you described sounds less like griefing and more like typical profiteering.

The 'kill' was from 3 guys.. I was not AFKing.. I got hammered and as a result lost a trillion ISK. Then got mocked by private message and email. Then I got offered the 'chance' to buy back all my own crap. Which they wanted me to go low sec to get. I showed up alright. Paid 200 milion on a contact and picked up 5 billion in blue prints and t3 stuff.. the pricks showed up outside the station and demanded MORE.

Needless to say my corp buddies didn't see it that way. They let everyone but the 'leader' who killed me go for a payout.

[Ignaddio]

To be honest, that's pretty hilarious (to me). You fell for a pretty obvious (to me) scam.

Learning the game mechanics is a pretty integral part of survival in EVE. When you transport anything outside of a station you're taking the risk that it explodes in a fiery ball on your shoulders. Transporting safely means making it more trouble than it's worth to get at your stuff. Additionally, if you weren't transporting those blueprints and T3 parts inside containers you may as well have advertised your haul in local. Assume just about everyone lingering on a gate in a trade lane has a cargo scanner and a passive targeter.

The two maxims of EVE describe the situation pretty well:

Trust no one.
Don't fly anything you can't afford to replace.

[Callie Del Noire]

To be honest, that's pretty hilarious (to me). You fell for a pretty obvious (to me) scam.

Learning the game mechanics is a pretty integral part of survival in EVE. When you transport anything outside of a station you're taking the risk that it explodes in a fiery ball on your shoulders. Transporting safely means making it more trouble than it's worth to get at your stuff. Additionally, if you weren't transporting those blueprints and T3 parts inside containers you may as well have advertised your haul in local. Assume just about everyone lingering on a gate in a trade lane has a cargo scanner and a passive targeter.

The two maxims of EVE describe the situation pretty well:

Trust no one.
Don't fly anything you can't afford to replace.

Dude.. I had containers.. I was aware.. it was my FIFTH trip of the day. A 25 jump relocation when my corp relocated. I used what I had to relocate.. now..

As for the contract.. yeah.. I KNEW it was a scam.. which is why I showed up in a Panther and brought friends.

[Skynet]

Ignaddio, the thing is that griefing is done solely to piss other people off.  Being upset by griefing in MMOs is not a sign of immaturity.

Now, EVE Online is controversial for griefers, and lots of people these days are aware of the game's reputation.  But Pathfinder (along with Dancey's statements on the matter) send the message to prospective players that griefing will not be tolerated.

But his lack of plans to prevent this, the self-regulating idea, and "always on" PvP environment are all recipes for disaster.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"What exactly do you base 'lack of plans' on, Skynet?"

[Ignaddio]

Ignaddio, the thing is that griefing is done solely to piss other people off.  Being upset by griefing in MMOs is not a sign of immaturity.

I'm inclined to retain my opinion that maturity includes not getting upset about the loss of pixels and data in a videogame, even if it took me months of videogaming to attain that data. Also, Pirate activity in EVE is primarily done for economic purposes, and because it's fun. Even the infamous Hulkageddon is thrown to manipulate the market at large. Also, pretending that the intentional lack of moderation on the issue isn't successful kind of ignores the game's years of success.

Also, you can't really expect the developer to provide you with solid details of a game that is potentially years from release. Always on PvP is pretty normal. See: WoW, Rift, SW:TOR. Granted, you can opt out on some games by selecting a carebear server, but if the game doesn't have that option and you don't have thick enough skin to cope with the alternative, then save yourself some grief and don't play. Vote with your wallet/time.

[Skynet]

"What exactly do you base 'lack of plans' on, Skynet?"

Dancey said in rpg.net that players who choose to be Chaotic Evil or attack other players will quickly get a bad reputation and nobody will not to associate with them.

A bad reputation can hurt people, but well-organized griefers knowledgeable in game mechanics or who manage to drive out enough players can do quite a bit of damage.

Pirate activity in EVE is primarily done for economic purposes, and because it's fun. Even the infamous Hulkageddon is thrown to manipulate the market at large. Also, pretending that the intentional lack of moderation on the issue isn't successful kind of ignores the game's years of success.

I'm not referring solely to EVE Online in regards to griefing.  And I recall that piracy and economic warfare in EVE is not inherently "griefing," but normal aspect of PvP.

I 'm referring more to players who continually pick on new players in an attempt to drive them from the game, send them harassing messages, promise them help on a raid but then standing around and doing nothing, or attack and kill characters who aren't interested in PvP.  Anti-social behavior in general.

[Callie Del Noire]

"What exactly do you base 'lack of plans' on, Skynet?"

Just the one early blog post I'm thinking.

Lots of posts have been made where they said they are looking for a balance..and that griefing was DEFINITELY not going to be allowed.

[Ignaddio]

I 'm referring more to players who continually pick on new players, send them harassing messages, or attack and kill characters who aren't interested in PvP.

1. Trial by fire. If new users can't cope with griefers they won't survive in the rest of the cutthroat universe.
2. You can block users, harassment is a non-issue.
3. It's a PvP game. Stick around long enough and you're going to experience nonconsensual PvP.

[Skynet]

I revised my post to clear some things up.  Not all MMOs are as cutthroat as EVE Online, nor is it the model that most MMO gamers wish to play.  Pathfinder Online is not modeled on this, and Dancey has made it clear even though it doesn't my adequate (to me) safeguards.

That's my main concern, that the developers don't have a plan for preventing this.

[Ignaddio]

Not all MMOs are as cutthroat as EVE Online, nor is it the model that people wish to play.

400,000 Paid subscriptions would tend to disagree. To be honest, I would love to see a similar model implemented in a fantasy game. I get bored of the Sci Fi from time to time.

[Skynet]

I meant to say most "MMO gamers."  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

Dancey said in rpg.net that players who choose to be Chaotic Evil or attack other players will quickly get a bad reputation and nobody will not to associate with them.

A bad reputation can hurt people, but well-organized griefers knowledgeable in game mechanics or who manage to drive out enough players can do quite a bit of damage.

Just the one early blog post I'm thinking.

Lots of posts have been made where they said they are looking for a balance..and that griefing was DEFINITELY not going to be allowed.

"There's a difference between being Chaotic Evil and being utterly moronic (which, from an 'RP' standpoint, is what griefing would be). We still know nothing about the game mechanics, and how they might deter griefers, and a strong community will make a big difference. However, in the end, as Callie said (and they mention on the Kickstarter), griefing is not acceptable."

"Again, I don't know if they'll follow through, there's just no knowing until you're already in the game. However, so far, they've stated their intention to put a halt to griefers, and the only thing you have to base anything off of is their word."

1. Trial by fire. If new users can't cope with griefers they won't survive in the rest of the cutthroat universe.
2. You can block users, harassment is a non-issue.
3. It's a PvP game. Stick around long enough and you're going to experience nonconsensual PvP.

"That first point only works, and is only acceptable, if that's a known factor. Even in EVE, which has a reputation for that, it's not really an acceptable thing to be forced to deal with because a new player isn't explicitly informed of that before playing. Caveat Emptor as always, but expectations are important to the survival of a game."

"SWTOR is a good game, for what it is, excellent really, but it suffered because it bred (probably through no fault of Bioware's, honestly) certain expectations."

"Either way, griefers are bad for a game. Games (and I'd argue, life) are about enjoying yourself, and if you're not, then the game is failing. If it's because of bad players, and no one does anything to stop them, then the community or the company, or both, are failing."

That's my main concern, that the developers don't have a plan for preventing this.

"You have no basis for this in either direction. I'm not saying they will succeed, and you can say the risk isn't worth it right now, but then we agree to disagree and there's nothing to be said for it. To me, I'm putting the money up to say 'Fuck WoW, Fuck Theme Parks, let's make Sandboxes work', because so far, I haven't seen a single Sandbox game that could even make me want to test it, much less stick with it. As for Theme Parks, well, Blizzard let me know a long time ago that Theme Parks are just a good way to suck the money out of people by exploiting the worst aspects of the internet and making it colorful."

"So, even if it's always a niche market, I want to tell companies that it's big enough to support."

"As for your desires, Ignaddio, I hope it fails to meet them. That's not the game I signed up for, and it's not the game they're promising."

[Ignaddio]

EVE Online has been around longer than WoW, and has no indications of stopping; indeed, the consistent semi-annual expansions indicate continued growth. While I freely concede that it doesn't have nearly the same subscriber base, the game is far from failing. It survives in part because it offers what many other game devs don't: minimal moderation of player interaction. Imagine switching from WoW or SW:TOR or EQ to one of those MMOs designed for children where interaction is limited to a selection of preset phrases. That's what going from EVE to WoW is like for me.

Pretending that your personal moral standard for video games is the ideal one is pretty silly. I like the idea that I can interfere with another player's assets and vice versa; PvP has wider consequences, higher stakes than a respawn timer or a corpserun. And I like the idea that there is no reward without risk. The game tutorials, pop ups, help tips and so on teach you the relevant mechanics of PvP in Hi-sec, and those of Low and nullsec should you wander. For crying out loud, EVE even advertises the fact that the game has pirates in its trailers.

EVE Online The Butterfly Effect Trailer

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"My 'personal moral standard' has nothing to do with whether a game is moderated, that's not what I'm saying. My 'personal moral standard' is that a game should be fun, and it should never manipulate a player, or lure a player in with false promises. If a game has an extreme enough niche (like EVE does), it should be made explicitly clear. Maybe EVE does so and I don't know, if so, good. I'm not criticizing EVE, I'm saying I don't want PFO to be EVE. I don't want to play EVE, I'm glad some people do and that it exists for them, but I'm not them, the fanbase for PFO seems to want something new. Maybe they don't want exactly what I want, but a hell of a lot of them sound like me, as do the various developer blogs."

"I don't think EVE shouldn't exist, I don't think EVE is a bad game. What I do think is, I don't want to play EVE, at all. Goblinworks isn't promising us EVE in Golarion, it's promising us a game with some of EVE's traits, wrapped into a package meant to appeal to a different crowd. I hope they cater to the crowd they've attracted."

[Chris Brady]

With mere HOURS left. They got it funded. While I have reservations on the game I will say this. This shows the big boys out there that there IS interest in MMOs not modeled on WoW.

What?  There's ALWAYS been interest.  No one wants to PAY for it, but there is interest.  Guild Wars 2, Tera, Vindictus Dungeons and Dragons Online, the planned new MMO Neverwinter and a slew of other games are trying to do things that aren't WoW, and they're succeeding enough to still be here after a few years.

Will they ever unseat WoW?  No.  Simply because of nostalgia, weight of material and the fact that Blizzard, despite the whining of people like me, is still beloved and believed can do no wrong.  WoW is nothing new, it's a EQ clone gussied up in cute Pop Culture references and a setting that stretches back 30+ years now.

Pathfinder is not for me, but I sincerely hope they are successful and stay a while.

[Skynet]

Well, the Kickstarter 24 hours ago had about 800,00 dollars if I recall.  A lot of people (including me) believed that they'd be unable to reach the million dollars, but they got the word out and received enough donations in the nick of time.  Paizo has a very dedicated fanbase, I'll give them that.

Also, I agree with Christ Brady, although I don't think that WoW has as much of a monopoly on MMORPG popularity anymore.  Guild Wars 2 is getting a lot of attention and praise.  The "pay once" instead of per month is very attractive.

Going back to Pathfinder, does anybody know what material they'll take from the published books?  They'd kick themselves if they didn't include the Alchemist and Summoner classes, for these two are very popular among PF players (if I go by online discussion forums).

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"They're starting with the basics, the idea for the game is to start small and build upward. They're not using a strict class-based system (particularly since  you don't have to be an adventurer at all), instead using 'paths'. For the most part, these will stick to the core rulebooks archetypes, and only... 5 I think... races will be available from the start, but that really depends on what you consider the start. The point of PFO is to not be extremely ambitious, so the start of Beta seems to be, for all intents and purposes, the release of the game... Or at least, the Start of Early Enrollment (I'm not sure if they're not the same thing)."

[Callie Del Noire]

"They're starting with the basics, the idea for the game is to start small and build upward. They're not using a strict class-based system (particularly since  you don't have to be an adventurer at all), instead using 'paths'. For the most part, these will stick to the core rulebooks archetypes, and only... 5 I think... races will be available from the start, but that really depends on what you consider the start. The point of PFO is to not be extremely ambitious, so the start of Beta seems to be, for all intents and purposes, the release of the game... Or at least, the Start of Early Enrollment (I'm not sure if they're not the same thing)."

Well I'm looking forward to giving it a try.. as donor #17 I'm looking forward to the beta

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"I'm excited, but were more than a year from beta, and I don't even know if that counts as early enrollment."

[Callie Del Noire]

A bit of thread necro.. I just heard that somoene in Eve Online clicked in the wrong spot and moved from a 'battle standing' to 'oh-my-fugging-god' full on coalition warfare this weekend. On the 27th, a dreadnaught pilot JUMPED into a sector he was supposed to bridge to.  In the ensuing slaughter.. 4 hours of geek on geek warfare..

a shit ton of normally unkillable ships were smoked.

The Asakai Incident - Jan 27, 2013

Something like under 100 or so of the HUGE supervessels were smoked. You don't normally see war this big in Eve..

Ironically the two sides had just talked down and were ready to stand down.

[Ignaddio]

Dreads don't bridge, Titans do.

CFC lost 44 Dreads, 29 Carriers, 5 Supercarriers and 3 Titans (including the Titan that jumped). They only killed 11 Carriers, 6 Dreads and 1 Supercarrier. In terms of ingame currency and time invested, CFC lost about 10 times what they killed; ~650 Billion to 65 Billion.

Relevant propaganda:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Ironically the two sides had just talked down and were ready to stand down.

I'm not sure what you mean by this; HBC and CFC currently have a Non-Invasion Pact going on; while we're welcome to shoot at one another, we don't organize fights to take each other's sov or infrastructure. TEST's dear leader Montolio was talking about ending the pact and calling for a full-on invasion of CFC space, but was talked down by other alliance leaders (most specifically, Shadoo of PL). This fight happened within the confines of that pact.

At any rate, none of this is actually relevant to the Pathfinder MMO.

[Callie Del Noire]

Dreads don't bridge, Titans do.

CFC lost 44 Dreads, 29 Carriers, 5 Supercarriers and 3 Titans (including the Titan that jumped). They only killed 11 Carriers, 6 Dreads and 1 Supercarrier. In terms of ingame currency and time invested, CFC lost about 10 times what they killed; ~650 Billion to 65 Billion.

Relevant propaganda:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I'm not sure what you mean by this; HBC and CFC currently have a Non-Invasion Pact going on; while we're welcome to shoot at one another, we don't organize fights to take each other's sov or infrastructure. TEST's dear leader Montolio was talking about ending the pact and calling for a full-on invasion of CFC space, but was talked down by other alliance leaders (most specifically, Shadoo of PL). This fight happened within the confines of that pact.

At any rate, none of this is actually relevant to the Pathfinder MMO.

Well from what I read they were supposedly moving down from 'I want to see f-ing burning ships all over' to something of a Cold War status. I'm still returning to the game. Relearning my scanning/probe skills and seeing what I can do after years of hiatus.

EVE was original brought up as an example of player driven economies.

[LunarSage]

1. Trial by fire. If new users can't cope with griefers they won't survive in the rest of the cutthroat universe.
2. You can block users, harassment is a non-issue.
3. It's a PvP game. Stick around long enough and you're going to experience nonconsensual PvP.

Yikes.

Griefing should not be something you "just have to deal with".  I find your words on the matter disturbing on several levels.  I pay a monthly fee every month to play my MMOs.  I play them to have fun, not to deal with 16 year old gankers or game exploiters who's sole purpose is to ruin my enjoyment of the game that (again), I pay actual money out of my pocket for.

I'm sorry, I will not lie back accept that as being "just part of the game".

I play MMOs not to PvP, but to team up with others.

[Ignaddio]

Yikes.

Griefing should not be something you "just have to deal with".  I find your words on the matter disturbing on several levels.  I pay a monthly fee every month to play my MMOs.  I play them to have fun, not to deal with 16 year old gankers or game exploiters who's sole purpose is to ruin my enjoyment of the game that (again), I pay actual money out of my pocket for.

I'm sorry, I will not lie back accept that as being "just part of the game".

I play MMOs not to PvP, but to team up with others.

Paying for a product doesn't entitle you to dictate how the game world works. And every game can't be everything to everyone. I enjoy EVE because of its minimal moderation of player interaction; I also pay money to enjoy the game in my way, which may conflict with your preferences. Luckily, the rules of the game and the precedent of minimal moderation set by the EVE devs tend to favor my perspective. I like the fact that every action in EVE carries a risk commensurate with its reward. There are other games out there (e.x. WoW) that will let you avoid the substantial proportion of risk for your reward. I don't like the concept of welfare epics and PUGing endgame content that WoW introduced. I like the idea that every aspect of every player's non-liquid assets faces the possibility of changing hands or being destroyed entirely.

Edit: Also, I'm twenty six, not sixteen.  :P

Just so we're clear here, I'm referring specifically to behavior in EVE which is sanctioned by the in-game rules. If you don't like the rules of the game you're playing, find another game; this one isn't for you, and that's fine. It just doesn't make sense to me to complain about it.

Re-Edit: One of the things that I don't like about EVE is that you don't have the option of destroying player-built stations. As awesome as it is to be able to construct an asset of that magnitude, I don't think anything players in EVE do should be immune to wanton destruction on a massive scale.

[LunarSage]

Paying for a product doesn't entitle you to dictate how the game world works.

Yet I can choose to stop playing entirely if griefing gets too bad.  It's in the company's best interests to ensure that players aren't chasing other players away from the game.  You're welcome to your opinion, but I maintain that being an asshole is -not- a player's right.  In fact, that sort of behavior should be actively punished.  It's not that difficult a notion to grasp that people being asshats and griefing other players in an MMO is a negative thing that should be curbed, not encouraged.

[Ignaddio]

If CCP were having trouble keeping the game afloat due to pirates chasing the thin-skinned out of EVE, it certainly isn't showing. There's a market for games like EVE, and the fact that it's a) older than WoW and b) still growing and changing, rather than stagnating like EQ are pretty good indicators that CCP's interests are right where they belong. 400,000 paid subscriptions are a pretty good indicator that someone wants to pay to play a game like EVE.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I maintain that being an asshole is -not- a player's right.

I never said it was a right. But it certainly is a liberty, and it's a liberty that CCP chooses not to restrict.

[LunarSage]

I guess we just differ in world outlook then.  I believe that if there were real life consequences to asshatery, there would be far less griefing.  People grief because they can do so anonymously, where if they treated someone like that in person they would eventually get beaten up.

Ever see the ending of Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back?  Sometimes I wish that kind of thing really happened.

[Ignaddio]

If you prefer, think of it this way: without a place like EVE sucking up the real-world resources (time, money) of so many pirates (griefers, if you prefer), where else would they be spent? On your kid-glove moderated  no-risk MMOs like SecondLife, WoW, EQ, SW:ToR, etc.

[LunarSage]

I play MMOs to have fun, not to engage in something stressful.  It's why when I played WoW I never raided or PvP'd.  Therefore, I never had to worry about top tier gear.  I liked doing regular quests and yes, I read every single quest's flavor text.  When I got to the point where I could literally do no more quests, I started over with a brand new character.  To me, leveling up is where the fun is.  Raiders often treat the game like a job... and that doesn't sound very fun to me.  In fact, it sounds like stress galore.

[SinXAzgard21]

Yikes.

Griefing should not be something you "just have to deal with".  I find your words on the matter disturbing on several levels.  I pay a monthly fee every month to play my MMOs.  I play them to have fun, not to deal with 16 year old gankers or game exploiters who's sole purpose is to ruin my enjoyment of the game that (again), I pay actual money out of my pocket for.

I'm sorry, I will not lie back accept that as being "just part of the game".

I play MMOs not to PvP, but to team up with others.

Please, never touch Day Z.

[Chris Brady]

If you prefer, think of it this way: without a place like EVE sucking up the real-world resources (time, money) of so many pirates (griefers, if you prefer), where else would they be spent? On your kid-glove moderated  no-risk MMOs like SecondLife, WoW, EQ, SW:ToR, etc.

This I find highly offensive 'kid glove'?  You have no idea what a true griefer loves to do in a game.  They CHEAT, they BREAK THE GAME.  Why?  Because it makes their e-peen bigger.  They don't care about being an asshole 'within' the game's 'rules', they WILL break it with hacks, cheats, bots and anything else their little hearts desires, because to see you cry and bitch and whine makes their days better, makes them forget that they are little shits with no life and no joy outside of ruining someone elses.  And better if they can get hundreds and thousands of people to moan and cry, because that's how they measure their self-worth.

Here's something, in DayZ, there were incidences of people just automatically dying on certain servers.  Just poof, everyone single person is killed.  Except a certain 'team'.  That is 'griefing'.  This is one's idea of a fun time, where they rigged a hack to kill all other players on the server, just so they could get the collected loot, which is ammo and guns, and healing items like painkillers and the like.  Griefers are a horrible thing for a gaming community.  Eve Online is well moderated enough to keep that biggest hackers and griefers at bay, and be thankful that they do, otherwise, that game would have gone down years ago.

[Callie Del Noire]

This I find highly offensive 'kid glove'?  You have no idea what a true griefer loves to do in a game.  They CHEAT, they BREAK THE GAME.  Why?  Because it makes their e-peen bigger.  They don't care about being an asshole 'within' the game's 'rules', they WILL break it with hacks, cheats, bots and anything else their little hearts desires, because to see you cry and bitch and whine makes their days better, makes them forget that they are little shits with no life and no joy outside of ruining someone elses.  And better if they can get hundreds and thousands of people to moan and cry, because that's how they measure their self-worth.

Here's something, in DayZ, there were incidences of people just automatically dying on certain servers.  Just poof, everyone single person is killed.  Except a certain 'team'.  That is 'griefing'.  This is one's idea of a fun time, where they rigged a hack to kill all other players on the server, just so they could get the collected loot, which is ammo and guns, and healing items like painkillers and the like.  Griefers are a horrible thing for a gaming community.  Eve Online is well moderated enough to keep that biggest hackers and griefers at bay, and be thankful that they do, otherwise, that game would have gone down years ago.

There was a bit of a kerfuffle a few years back when some of the folks who worked for CCP were discovered to have pointed their in game buddies towards some prime loot. (High tech blue prints if I recall) and it was bad for WEEKS. Costing BILLIONS in money to the corps in questions.

[ManyMindsManyVoices]

"While I understand caveat emptor, I agree with Lunar. Assholes need to be punished, severely. EVE is a game where that is the nature of the game. It's not really griefing, because most players (at this point), came aboard with that knowledge, or should have. However, there are things I've read about happening in EVE that would cause me to call absolute foul on a shitty system, unless I'm missing some facts, and maybe I am, I don't know. In the end, I don't care, because I'm not playing EVE, I don't really want to play EVE. Just because the niche exists, doesn't mean it deserves to be catered to, either."

"On top of that, I agree with Chris that most griefers aren't playing by the rules to have 'their kind of fun'. They're assholes, just plain assholes, who have no consideration for other people. If you can't have fun without ruining someone else's fun, you don't deserve to have fun."

[LunarSage]

If you can't have fun without ruining someone else's fun, you don't deserve to have fun."

+1

[Atarn]

Think I'll quote Yatzhee on this one: "EVE players, they are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
I never got the sadistic glee with which EVE players celebrate ruining stuff for eachh other but I do get that it's a horrible idea to have that sort of weak moderation in another MMO.

[Callie Del Noire]

Think I'll quote Yatzhee on this one: "EVE players, they are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
I never got the sadistic glee with which EVE players celebrate ruining stuff for eachh other but I do get that it's a horrible idea to have that sort of weak moderation in another MMO.

What got me is this. If you got friends who can slap 100 million on a new player (and they did on EIGHT people the day I got bountied) why the hell are you gate sniping hi-sec?  Or popping miners in mid range for fun?

[Atarn]

What got me is this. If you got friends who can slap 100 million on a new player (and they did on EIGHT people the day I got bountied) why the hell are you gate sniping hi-sec?  Or popping miners in mid range for fun?

Want my personal opinion of the nice , edited opinion?

[Callie Del Noire]

Want my personal opinion of the nice , edited opinion?

Feel free to have your say.. mine required exposure to 15 years of naval cursing to say.

[Chris Brady]

Think I'll quote Yatzhee on this one: "EVE players, they are to nerds what nerds are to normal people."
I never got the sadistic glee with which EVE players celebrate ruining stuff for eachh other but I do get that it's a horrible idea to have that sort of weak moderation in another MMO.

You can put most MOBA (as it's called, League of Legends and other similar game) players under that same category.  It's a structured PvP system designed for competition and ruthlessness.  As long as you play within the rules, the hosting company (CCP in this case) doesn't care how you go about your business.  Once you step out of those bounds though (like most griefers who are TRULY out to grief) they will step on you, HARD.

[Callie Del Noire]

You can put most MOBA (as it's called, League of Legends and other similar game) players under that same category.  It's a structured PvP system designed for competition and ruthlessness.  As long as you play within the rules, the hosting company (CCP in this case) doesn't care how you go about your business.  Once you step out of those bounds though (like most griefers who are TRULY out to grief) they will step on you, HARD.

Uh..yeah.. EVE is the most PVP friendly MMO I've played in since Ultimta Online.