Zombie apocalypse now?

[Spear80]

So Zombies are big these days, there's are movies, tv shows, video game, books, comics, all kinds of stuff. Some good, some very very bad. Now a big staple of these is that, by the time the authorities cotton on that things are out of control, the zombies, infected, whichever are already rampaging out of the hospitals, morgues and they get pretty much treated to shots in the center mass, which does frak all. (usually). Cops get bit, more people bit, military get eaten and so on. Next thing you know, the secret service gets jumped on the white house lawn and New York is burning. And then our intrepid heroes get to do their thing.

These days however, with all the exposure, and starting with patient zero, if there was to be an apocalypse. (big suspension of disbelief, granted) by the time we hit, patient 50, or 1500, wouldn't there be some kind of authority, that goes. "Could it be, should we double tap the next face chewer in the head, rather than cuff them to a stretcher and take them to the hospital, where some well meaning RN cunt, can undo the cuffs" and then does that, or more likely at a certain point, orders that done, stopping the apocalypse in its tracks. (and get sued into his next life by the relatives, but still)

I'm not saying the walking dead, is the World health Organisation, secretly preparing us, it's to cool for that. But if crap were to happen it might, make someone below the level of a career politician, think about the possibility and act accordingly.

Anyway, just soomething i was wondering about, what do people here think?

[MasterMischief]

It is not always that simple.  The medical community is pretty certain as to how to handle Ebola and Measles and yet there is a lot of misinformation and panic out there.

[Spear80]

It is not always that simple.  The medical community is pretty certain as to how to handle Ebola and Measles and yet there is a lot of misinformation and panic out there.

True, but because it's not that simple, things get frakked up in the movies. "OH look, that guy is eating someone's face, let's tase his ass and toss him in a padded room, so a nurse can handfeed him and lets take the victim to a hospital, oh wait his heart just stopped?....oh why is he moving then, oh god, oh no........." So then you have at least 3 zombies, soon to be more, i imagine.

I thought i covered that. My point was, that having seen a those movies and watched the walking dead, that someone, someday if faced with someone or multiple someones eating someone else's face, the authorities, or hell, the local cop, might decide not to tase, but to shoot to kill.

[MasterMischief]

Maybe I am not following you then.  There are real world examples of situations where what needs to be done is pretty straight forward and simple yet people still don't do exactly that.  Sure, some people will follow the facts wherever they may lead, but I would not bet against irrationality.

[Lustful Bride]

So Zombies are big these days, there's are movies, tv shows, video game, books, comics, all kinds of stuff. Some good, some very very bad. Now a big staple of these is that, by the time the authorities cotton on that things are out of control, the zombies, infected, whichever are already rampaging out of the hospitals, morgues and they get pretty much treated to shots in the center mass, which does frak all. (usually). Cops get bit, more people bit, military get eaten and so on. Next thing you know, the secret service gets jumped on the white house lawn and New York is burning. And then our intrepid heroes get to do their thing.

These days however, with all the exposure, and starting with patient zero, if there was to be an apocalypse. (big suspension of disbelief, granted) by the time we hit, patient 50, or 1500, wouldn't there be some kind of authority, that goes. "Could it be, should we double tap the next face chewer in the head, rather than cuff them to a stretcher and take them to the hospital, where some well meaning RN cunt, can undo the cuffs" and then does that, or more likely at a certain point, orders that done, stopping the apocalypse in its tracks. (and get sued into his next life by the relatives, but still)

I'm not saying the walking dead, is the World health Organisation, secretly preparing us, it's to cool for that. But if crap were to happen it might, make someone below the level of a career politician, think about the possibility and act accordingly.

Anyway, just soomething i was wondering about, what do people here think?

You know I actually want to see that actually. More of the media where the heroes actually stop the apocalypse and the zomebies and etc from happening.  IM osrt of tired of seeing things destroyed, I want to see more of things collapsing and breaking down, only to be pulled back just as they were about to go over the cliff. Just imagine how much more drama could come from that.

I remember I read a story somewhere a long time ago where a couple was trapped in a building as the undead beat at the doors outside and broke slowly bit by bit through their barricades and the couple then decided to commit suicide with some poison capsules rather than to hear their lover scream in agony as they were devoured, the noise kept getting louder and louder and byt he time the two had taken their pills it turned out the sound was a rescue team coming to save them. Only to leave via helicopter when they discovered there were no survivors left.

I myself would instantly be in a car heading north with all my family's guns and emergency supplies the moment it looked like zombies were really showing up/ roaming the streets. Daddy didn't raise no fool.  :P

[MasterMischief]

The end of the movie The Mist made me sick to my stomach.  You might say that was a good thing as it had such a strong emotional impact on me.  Movies so rarely affect me like that.

[Lustful Bride]

The end of the movie The Mist made me sick to my stomach.  You might say that was a good thing as it had such a strong emotional impact on me.  Movies so rarely affect me like that.

I know, it taught me more than anything to never give up, to keep fighting for every last second of life, even if it looks absolutely hopeless.

[Mathim]

Think about how crazy the pro-life movement gets, and the Terri Schiavo thing. Of course people aren't going to stand for their zombified loved one being put down. So people's irrational beliefs and behavior will doom us all. Whether it's from a zombie outbreak or something else, it's inevitable.

[Lustful Bride]

Think about how crazy the pro-life movement gets, and the Terri Schiavo thing. Of course people aren't going to stand for their zombified loved one being put down. So people's irrational beliefs and behavior will doom us all. Whether it's from a zombie outbreak or something else, it's inevitable.

Ugh terrifying. I just prefer to think that the person's soul is trapped inside that undead body. And to put that walking corpse back where it belongs is just a way to free them. Though if I had to kill a zombified love one id probably be in tears as I did it.  :-(

[CaptainNexus616]

You can pull a Michonne instead and just chop their arms and jaws off so you won't be infected and keep them on a chain leash.

Though to be honest if I could just survive long enough to get to the coast line. I would hop a boat and head out to sea. Now unless animals including Marine life can be afflicted by the virus you should essentially be safe provided you can adapt to surviving out at sea or find a nice island to hide away on.

[Mathim]

You can pull a Michonne instead and just chop their arms and jaws off so you won't be infected and keep them on a chain leash.

Though to be honest if I could just survive long enough to get to the coast line. I would hop a boat and head out to sea. Now unless animals including Marine life can be afflicted by the virus you should essentially be safe provided you can adapt to surviving out at sea or find a nice island to hide away on.

Clearly you have not read the Zombie Survival Guide. Prepared as you might be to set out to sea, there's no guarantee it will be safer and it comes with a shit-ton of its own, different complications.

[Beorning]

Yeah. What scarier than a giant squid? A zombie flesh-eating giant squid...  :o

[Spear80]

Think about how crazy the pro-life movement gets, and the Terri Schiavo thing. Of course people aren't going to stand for their zombified loved one being put down. So people's irrational beliefs and behavior will doom us all. Whether it's from a zombie outbreak or something else, it's inevitable.

Well, that would suck. Probably right though. Would be a good excuse to not reinvent lawyers when the rebulding starts. ;) if it restarts, they'd probably already frakked that up as well by then. :(

[Spear80]

Yeah. What scarier than a giant squid? A zombie flesh-eating giant squid...  :o

Did you get that idea from strands of Sorrow, by John Ringo. The black tide rising series?. Which was another example of the government frakking up and not putting down the infected when they still could. Even though in this universe, there had aparently been the occasional zombie movie, on which no one acted. Normally the zombieverses forget the Romero movies.

[Beorning]

Did you get that idea from strands of Sorrow, by John Ringo. The black tide rising series?

Heh. No, actually. My own idea. See, I'm actually afraid of the sea... and I consider giant squids to be some of the scariest marine animals.

[Mathim]

Heh. No, actually. My own idea. See, I'm actually afraid of the sea... and I consider giant squids to be some of the scariest marine animals.

And not the smiling sharks and killer whales? :o I guess maybe I have a little too much tentacle hentai in my porn collection to be scared of things that have them...

But seriously, there's tons of hazards, some even worse than on dry land, if you're trying to evacuate out to sea. Tons of planning would have to go into it and so for that to be a go-to answer, would require lots of things to be done in advance. If a proper zombie invasion were to take place, there would never be time to do all that.

[Wolven Soul]

Well, I think that if the world does have to go through the apocalypse, that I really hope that it is the zombie apocalypse.  I just think it will be the one that will be the most fun.  Okay, okay, I know, I'm a weirdo.  :P

[Mathim]

Well, I think that if the world does have to go through the apocalypse, that I really hope that it is the zombie apocalypse.  I just think it will be the one that will be the most fun.  Okay, okay, I know, I'm a weirdo.  :P

I don't know about fun, but it's the one that really would ensure that only those fit to survive, both physically and emotionally, will in fact survive. Anyone without the ability to see that once grandma starts trying to chew your arms off even without her dentures in, she's gone, is not going to make it.

[Beorning]

Well, I think that if the world does have to go through the apocalypse, that I really hope that it is the zombie apocalypse.  I just think it will be the one that will be the most fun.  Okay, okay, I know, I'm a weirdo.  :P

Actually, a slasher apocalypse would be better  ;)

[Lustful Bride]

Actually, a slasher apocalypse would be better  ;)

You mean like that movie The Crazies? Were its not zombies but people losing their shit?

That would be worse! I prefer zombies because its the most survivable apocalypse as opposed to aliens or robots or some other thing.

Zombies aren't smart and the rules about them are easy to follow if you keep your head.

[Beorning]

You mean like that movie The Crazies? Were its not zombies but people losing their shit?

Yeah, although it wouldn't be about people going stupidly violent etc. It would about millions of people being infected with a Michael Myers mentality...

That would be worse! I prefer zombies because its the most survivable apocalypse as opposed to aliens or robots or some other thing.

Well, I'll give you that. But zombies are boring.

Female slashers, on the other hand...  ;)

[Lustful Bride]

Female slashers, on the other hand...  ;)

*shoots the bitches* Stay away from my man!

X3 I can totally imagine saying that to keep them away from my BF

[Beorning]

Also, note that a slasher apocalypse - as opposed to zombie apocalypse - is a setting where the monsters are actually playable in an RP context.

A male survivor x female slasher pairing... I'd write that  ;)

[Mathim]

Slashers have bored me since they started making all the major ones unkillable. Jason, Freddy, Myers, what's the deal with unstoppable killing machines? There's no fun or attraction to that kind of menace. Give me the tenacious, unrelenting single-mindedness of zombies with that one glaring shoot-'em-in-the-head weakness, that never gets old.

[Beorning]

Slashers have bored me since they started making all the major ones unkillable. Jason, Freddy, Myers, what's the deal with unstoppable killing machines? There's no fun or attraction to that kind of menace.

Even if the menace is sexy young woman advancing toward you with a sharp tool in her hand, with her eyes being... the blackest eyes?

[TheGlyphstone]

Even if the menace is sexy young woman advancing toward you with a sharp tool in her hand, with her eyes being... the blackest eyes?

Sharp objects being handled with menace in my direction are decidedly not sexy.

[Mathim]

Even if the menace is sexy young woman advancing toward you with a sharp tool in her hand, with her eyes being... the blackest eyes?

ESPECIALLY in that case. Such a waste. At least if she becomes a zombie she won't look hot anymore.

[Beorning]

Come on! Wouldn't you want to embrace such a woman and help her find her humanity again?  ;D

[Nachtmahr]

One thing I never understood in zombie apocalypses is: Who is starting all those fires?

You always see the White House or any another national symbol on fire, along with big cities that are crumbling and ruined. If zombies are slow, barely functioning brutes, how would they go about wrecking New York in it's entirety? And why on earth would they start a fire on the 225th floor of some skyscraper?

The thing about stereotypical zombie viruses is also that it tends to be spread through biting or similar physical interactions. Any disease that spreads like that from people who are clearly already infected isn't actually very dangerous. it's pretty easy to round up and contain anyone who was likely exposed and to quarantine an area to keep other possibly infected confined. Like someone said pretty early on: It's not that people arne't prepared to fight a disease, like with Ebola. The threat of Ebola was never quite as big as the media tried to make it - Sensationalism usually leads to controlled chaos being perceived as just chaos.

[Beorning]

Zombies starting fires dates back to the original Night Of The Living Dead... Maybe these fires appear because zombies cause such chaos that things get out of control? People are killed and don't turn off their ovens or stuff like that...

As for the "uncontrollable epidemics" aspect of zombie stories, I'd say it comes from the fact the infected there are actually very violent and don't allow themselves to be quarantined. Also, considering their violent nature, they can infect others easily... and the infection can take effect quite fast. So, the epidemic isn't that easily controllable as one might think.

Still, it's true that the zombie apocalypse is a bit of overblown scenario...

[Spear80]

i imagine the people fighting the zombies start the fire. They might accidentally miss a shot, and hit something flamable, or they toss a molotov that gets a little out of hand. (and until the muscle is burned, zombies might be able to move while on fire, with terrible consiquences for your curtains)

As for containment, In a zombieclypse, that usually is the problem, at first victims are hospitalized often treated, try giving CPR to a newly dead zombie. (walking dead webisode!, i think) If no vitals show it's the morgue, once it overflows the school gym. Then they rise, and they burst out, taking down whomever in their path. Do that in enough places, like every hospital in New York and there are a lot of deadites roaming, with police possibly trying to recontain them. By the time people figure out, to go for headshots rather than wrestiling them down and cuff them, it might be to late for a lot of people and places.

[Oniya]

One thing I never understood in zombie apocalypses is: Who is starting all those fires?

You always see the White House or any another national symbol on fire, along with big cities that are crumbling and ruined. If zombies are slow, barely functioning brutes, how would they go about wrecking New York in it's entirety? And why on earth would they start a fire on the 225th floor of some skyscraper?

I imagine that the fire department is either among the first to get infected (being first responders) or quite busy trying to save lives.  As such, any sources of fire, (like lightning strikes, cigarettes dropped in apartments during an attack, car accidents between panicky civilians, third-rails shorted out by wandering corpses, and the like) are more likely to continue burning for longer than they would ordinarily.

[TheGlyphstone]

As always, when these topics come up, I'm struck by a quote that came out of a Cracked article of all places. "A zombie's apex predator is also that zombie's only food source and its only means of reproduction. This is like having to wrestle an adult lion into submission every time you want to have sex or eat a sandwich."

If a zombie eats its victim - particularly their brain, which all zombies apparently crave - bam, no new zombie, and mindless zombies aren't going to just stop killing/eating someone once they have suffered just enough damage to become a zombie in return. If the zombie bites someone but that person manages to kill the zombie before they succumb, net zombie population change=0. One human being who manages to kill two zombies before they are infected=-1 net zombie population, and the ratio just gets more unfavorable from there when we start using guns and defenses.

Humans are the deadliest things on planet Earth, and it's not because of our physical traits. It's because we are smart, sneaky, ruthless, tool-using sons-and-daughters-of-bitches, everything that a shambling corpse is not. You basically have to make a zombie a magical super-monster that ignores both physics and biology to result in it being any sort of threat. There is a very good reason almost all popular zombie stories (Walking Dead is a good topical example) only start 'after the end', because showing the end itself would be incredibly unrealistic. Stack on the fact that we are innundated with zombies in popular culture, and the odds of any Patient Zero managing to start any sort of outbreak is basically fantasy. I love post-apocalyptic stories, but zombies are pretty much the one flavor I just can't take seriously enough.

I'd be more scared of a mass uprising of murderous cows than a zombie plague. Cows are smarter than zombies, and much harder to incapacitate. And they outweigh the total humans on earth, in terms of body mass, by a significant degree.

[Mathim]

As always, when these topics come up, I'm struck by a quote that came out of a Cracked article of all places. "A zombie's apex predator is also that zombie's only food source and its only means of reproduction. This is like having to wrestle an adult lion into submission every time you want to have sex or eat a sandwich."

If a zombie eats its victim - particularly their brain, which all zombies apparently crave - bam, no new zombie, and mindless zombies aren't going to just stop killing/eating someone once they have suffered just enough damage to become a zombie in return. If the zombie bites someone but that person manages to kill the zombie before they succumb, net zombie population change=0. One human being who manages to kill two zombies before they are infected=-1 net zombie population, and the ratio just gets more unfavorable from there when we start using guns and defenses.

Humans are the deadliest things on planet Earth, and it's not because of our physical traits. It's because we are smart, sneaky, ruthless, tool-using sons-and-daughters-of-bitches, everything that a shambling corpse is not. You basically have to make a zombie a magical super-monster that ignores both physics and biology to result in it being any sort of threat. There is a very good reason almost all popular zombie stories (Walking Dead is a good topical example) only start 'after the end', because showing the end itself would be incredibly unrealistic. Stack on the fact that we are innundated with zombies in popular culture, and the odds of any Patient Zero managing to start any sort of outbreak is basically fantasy. I love post-apocalyptic stories, but zombies are pretty much the one flavor I just can't take seriously enough.

I'd be more scared of a mass uprising of murderous cows than a zombie plague. Cows are smarter than zombies, and much harder to incapacitate. And they outweigh the total humans on earth, in terms of body mass, by a significant degree.

They showed the end itself during the remake of Dawn of the Dead. But that was only plausible because they could run. The slow, shambling ones could never, as you say, be shown to plausibly do so in a movie/TV show. It's always the aftermath where it's too late in those cases. Although they gave it the old college try in the opening animated scene from Resident Evil Nemesis (the video game, not the movie).

If you're freaked out by zombie animals, check out the New Zealand-based horror film Black Sheep. It's actually really good, not just because of the weird, out-of-left-field themes. They're not as physically imposing as cows but once they go all feral, watch your ass.

[TheGlyphstone]

All I know about Black Sheep is that there's a scene where a zombie sheep eats a man's penis.

[Beorning]

If a zombie eats its victim - particularly their brain, which all zombies apparently crave - bam, no new zombie, and mindless zombies aren't going to just stop killing/eating someone once they have suffered just enough damage to become a zombie in return.

Exactly. I've always wondered: if zombies eat humans, then why the number of zombies seems to grow geometrically? The more zombies, the more successful they would be at eating people... meaning, at some point the number of zombies should stop growing. The horde would eat completely everyone they can capture, with no new zombies being created.

I'd be more scared of a mass uprising of murderous cows than a zombie plague. Cows are smarter than zombies, and much harder to incapacitate. And they outweigh the total humans on earth, in terms of body mass, by a significant degree.

How about man-eating boars? I had that idea last week, when I heard about our farmers' problems with boars... and how, apparently, our boars grew so populous and bold that they started appearing in city center.

Of course, as I mentioned earlier, the best scenario is the uprising of murderous humans...  ;D

[Mathim]

All I know about Black Sheep is that there's a scene where a zombie sheep eats a man's penis.

LOL, yes, that's why I purposely said watch your ass instead of giving away that delightfully creative tidbit.

[TheGlyphstone]

...an Apocowlypse would be scary. A Boarpocalypse would be utterly, utterly terrifying. Remember what I said about cows being smarter than zombies and tougher to kill? Pigs are incredibly smart, and wild ones are even tougher to kill than cows.

[Beorning]

Also, remember that a boar isn't just a feral pig. It has tusks...

And heck, even ordinary boar means trouble, if it's angry. Just think what a horde of *crazy* boars would do...

Speaking of intelligent animals, how about squidocalypse? Or dolphinocalypse?

[Oniya]

They showed the end itself during the remake of Dawn of the Dead. But that was only plausible because they could run. The slow, shambling ones could never, as you say, be shown to plausibly do so in a movie/TV show. It's always the aftermath where it's too late in those cases. Although they gave it the old college try in the opening animated scene from Resident Evil Nemesis (the video game, not the movie).

If you're freaked out by zombie animals, check out the New Zealand-based horror film Black Sheep. It's actually really good, not just because of the weird, out-of-left-field themes. They're not as physically imposing as cows but once they go all feral, watch your ass.

Oh dear - Fenton lives!

[TheGlyphstone]

Not much ocean-going creatures can do to threaten civilization, unfortunately. At worst, they wreck the coastal tourism industries of some states/provinces/small countries.

Also, remember that a boar isn't just a feral pig. It has tusks...

And heck, even ordinary boar means trouble, if it's angry. Just think what a horde of *crazy* boars would do...

Exactly. They're angry feral pigs with giant spears on their face.

Now I want to see Boarpocalypse as a ScyFy original movie...

[Oniya]

Or maybe Boarmaggedon?

[Beorning]

Not much ocean-going creatures can do to threaten civilization, unfortunately. At worst, they wreck the coastal tourism industries of some states/provinces/small countries.

Unless they mutate and get the ability to survive on land, of course...  :o

[Zakharra]

 The most realistic setting for a zombie apocalypse is a mutated form of rabies. Spread through the air, it infects people, and the people start spreading the virus before they know they are sick, for a week or more. Then there's about 1-2 weeks or so of increasingly violent behavior before the paralysis sets in and then death.  Other than that, there's no way a zombie apocalypse could happen. Dead flesh simply does not work that way.

[TheGlyphstone]

The most realistic setting for a zombie apocalypse is a mutated form of rabies. Spread through the air, it infects people, and the people start spreading the virus before they know they are sick, for a week or more. Then there's about 1-2 weeks or so of increasingly violent behavior before the paralysis sets in and then death.  Other than that, there's no way a zombie apocalypse could happen. Dead flesh simply does not work that way.

Rage zombies are also problematic, because they always seem to suffer from conveniently selective biology. They get all the perks of a hyperactive sprinting rabid human who ignores pain, but there is never a good reason given for where they get the food energy to move like that, or how they get enough water to continue functioning; a few days of dehydration will kill a person, worse under intensive physical activity. They're certainly more plausible than shamblers, though.

An airborne toxin can explain spread, but if the primary infection vector isn't bites/injury from infectees, I'm not really sure there is any connection to zombies anymore at that point.

[Wolven Soul]

One thing I never understood in zombie apocalypses is: Who is starting all those fires?

You always see the White House or any another national symbol on fire, along with big cities that are crumbling and ruined. If zombies are slow, barely functioning brutes, how would they go about wrecking New York in it's entirety? And why on earth would they start a fire on the 225th floor of some skyscraper?

The thing about stereotypical zombie viruses is also that it tends to be spread through biting or similar physical interactions. Any disease that spreads like that from people who are clearly already infected isn't actually very dangerous. it's pretty easy to round up and contain anyone who was likely exposed and to quarantine an area to keep other possibly infected confined. Like someone said pretty early on: It's not that people arne't prepared to fight a disease, like with Ebola. The threat of Ebola was never quite as big as the media tried to make it - Sensationalism usually leads to controlled chaos being perceived as just chaos.

Well, in a lot of zombie stories, the original virus is initially airborne.  So it spreads to just about everyone.  The bite just makes it happen faster.  But if everyone who dies turns no matter how they die, it gets out of hand real quick because there is always people dying. 

Otherwise I would tend to agree, that it should be fairly easy to contain and deal with.  As for the fires, I would say that is usually more humans than the zombies themselves, as humans are far more destructive than the zombies.  All the zombies wanna do is chow down after all.  :P

[Wolven Soul]

If a zombie eats its victim - particularly their brain, which all zombies apparently crave - bam, no new zombie, and mindless zombies aren't going to just stop killing/eating someone once they have suffered just enough damage to become a zombie in return. If the zombie bites someone but that person manages to kill the zombie before they succumb, net zombie population change=0. One human being who manages to kill two zombies before they are infected=-1 net zombie population, and the ratio just gets more unfavorable from there when we start using guns and defenses.

I have only ever seen one series where the zombie goes for the brain, that being, Return of the Living Dead.  Zombies tend to chow down on people all the way up to the point where they turn and get back up.  Usually, they are not actually completely mindless.  Romero zombies for instance often seem to have some kind of residual memory.  Bubba for instance from Day of the Dead, was possibly once  soldier, for when he saw an officer, he saluted.  Then there was the black zombie in Land of the Dead who kept trying to use a jackhammer. 

Even in other zombie fictions, the zombies at least retain base instincts.  Not intelligent by any means of course, but their sense of smell seems to function just fine, and they seem to prefer life meat or at least freshly dead meat.  Otherwise they would just chow down on each other I would think.

[TheGlyphstone]

I have only ever seen one series where the zombie goes for the brain, that being, Return of the Living Dead.  Zombies tend to chow down on people all the way up to the point where they turn and get back up.  Usually, they are not actually completely mindless.  Romero zombies for instance often seem to have some kind of residual memory.  Bubba for instance from Day of the Dead, was possibly once  soldier, for when he saw an officer, he saluted.  Then there was the black zombie in Land of the Dead who kept trying to use a jackhammer. 

Even in other zombie fictions, the zombies at least retain base instincts.  Not intelligent by any means of course, but their sense of smell seems to function just fine, and they seem to prefer life meat or at least freshly dead meat.  Otherwise they would just chow down on each other I would think.

Which is still a problem, because a crippled zombie with crucial muscles eaten away is useless for spreading the infection further - can't grapple without function arms/walk with functional legs/do pretty much anything with certain torso muscle groups gone.

It is worth mentioning Romero, though, because everyone seems to forget that the original zombie movie - Night of the Living Dead itself - ends with the humans turning the tide and killing off the ghouls. It was a small-scale horror, about one group of people trapped and mostly eaten by the living dead; later imitators decided that wasn't epic/scary enough and made the whole world be affected instead. And thus we get to today.

[Mathim]

I wrote a short zombie story (in movie script form) where it turns out that aliens use nanomachines like an artificial virus to infect certain select individuals worldwide (those in hospice condition, with less than 6 months to live) and other key people who were otherwise doing nothing with their lives, and that started the epidemic. In the end, that explained biological reanimation which just isn't possible even with a space-born virus, and the continuation of motor function without a steady fuel source. I never made clear whether the aliens did this with indifference to humanity's survival or to simply weed out the unfit and save only those worthy from an oncoming cataclysm that would have wiped everybody out anyway.

I mean, whether it's a man-made plague or some kind of spacey germ, neither really covers all the bases. It took me a while to come up with a plausible idea that did. And the way I set it up, basically eliminating players from the game who weren't going to survive anyway and initiating the infection in parts of the population that people were either not keen to lose (and therefore not willing to take out themselves) or those that were basically ignored and left to cause trouble because nobody cared enough. Interesting dichotomy, no?

[Wolven Soul]

Which is still a problem, because a crippled zombie with crucial muscles eaten away is useless for spreading the infection further - can't grapple without function arms/walk with functional legs/do pretty much anything with certain torso muscle groups gone.

It is worth mentioning Romero, though, because everyone seems to forget that the original zombie movie - Night of the Living Dead itself - ends with the humans turning the tide and killing off the ghouls. It was a small-scale horror, about one group of people trapped and mostly eaten by the living dead; later imitators decided that wasn't epic/scary enough and made the whole world be affected instead. And thus we get to today.

At the end of that one movie yes, but as we see in Dawn of the Dead, things get out of hand yet again real fast.

You make a good point though about the cripples zombies.  They would not be of much use, but one thing about zombies, you can't ever really count them out completely until you crack open that noggin.  :P

[Lustful Bride]

It is worth mentioning Romero, though, because everyone seems to forget that the original zombie movie - Night of the Living Dead itself - ends with the humans turning the tide and killing off the ghouls. It was a small-scale horror, about one group of people trapped and mostly eaten by the living dead; later imitators decided that wasn't epic/scary enough and made the whole world be affected instead. And thus we get to today.

I know! And it leaves me disappointed, I always wanted to see more of that, people banning together to form posse's and militias fighting the zombies and being pro active.


Also I remember the scene in Dawn of the dead was it? Where we see soldiers and random hunters working together to hunt the zombies, I really wanted to see more of that!

[Wolven Soul]

I know! And it leaves me disappointed, I always wanted to see more of that, people banning together to form posse's and militias fighting the zombies and being pro active.


Also I remember the scene in Dawn of the dead was it? Where we see soldiers and random hunters working together to hunt the zombies, I really wanted to see more of that!

I agree that would be fun to see.  For me though, the best parts of zombie movies are never the zombies themselves, for when they are used the right way, they are never anything but tools.  The real story of any good zombie fiction, is in how the people interact with the other people.  Any apocalypse will bring out the best and worst of people, but zombie apocalypses for some reason tell these stories the best in my opinion.  Perhaps it is because the zombies are in a way a reflection of the ugliness of humanity.

[Mathim]

It really depends on whether it's purely viral or if, Romero-style, you can count on any dead body getting back up again shortly after expiring (provided the brain hasn't been destroyed). If there was any hope of fighting back, it would only be really feasible with the latter, otherwise you'd never be able to be fully secure since there'd be new ones popping up all the time. You could be sleeping next to your spouse and wake up to find them trying to eat your face if they had a heart attack or aneurysm and died in their sleep.

They did kind of make it feasible in the movie Fido, to control the situation despite people reviving as zombies no matter the cause of death.

[TheGlyphstone]

It really depends on whether it's purely viral or if, Romero-style, you can count on any dead body getting back up again shortly after expiring (provided the brain hasn't been destroyed). If there was any hope of fighting back, it would only be really feasible with the latter, otherwise you'd never be able to be fully secure since there'd be new ones popping up all the time. You could be sleeping next to your spouse and wake up to find them trying to eat your face if they had a heart attack or aneurysm and died in their sleep.

They did kind of make it feasible in the movie Fido, to control the situation despite people reviving as zombies no matter the cause of death.

This is one of the things I really like about the Newsflesh trilogy, a set of books that take place after a zombie apocalypse that we win. Part of society's adaptations to a post-zombie world (caused by a viral plague that infects all living humans, but only goes 'live' when they die) is adapting to prevent spontaneous death-and-reanimations from causing new outbreaks, and among other things is a strong resurgence in separate rooms for spouses like in the first half of the 1900's.

[Mathim]

This is one of the things I really like about the Newsflesh trilogy, a set of books that take place after a zombie apocalypse that we win. Part of society's adaptations to a post-zombie world (caused by a viral plague that infects all living humans, but only goes 'live' when they die) is adapting to prevent spontaneous death-and-reanimations from causing new outbreaks, and among other things is a strong resurgence in separate rooms for spouses like in the first half of the 1900's.

Even though that wasn't how it worked in World War Z, I still liked that there were enough zombies out there (frozen, or at the bottom of the ocean, etc.) to make everyone still on high alert from that point on. It only takes one to start another outbreak, after all.

[TheGlyphstone]

I think my favorite part of the World War Z book (speak not of the cinematic abomination that bears its name) was the Mystery of North Korea, and how no one knows what happened even at the end - and no one was particularly inclined to find out.

[Wolven Soul]

I think my favorite part of the World War Z book (speak not of the cinematic abomination that bears its name) was the Mystery of North Korea, and how no one knows what happened even at the end - and no one was particularly inclined to find out.

Holy crap I fully agree with you about that freaking movie.  What kind of freaking zombie gives a crap if a person has a deadly disease?  I mean honestly...

[Oniya]

Holy crap I fully agree with you about that freaking movie.  What kind of freaking zombie gives a crap if a person has a deadly disease?  I mean honestly...

Maybe they don't taste as good?

[Lustful Bride]

Holy crap I fully agree with you about that freaking movie.  What kind of freaking zombie gives a crap if a person has a deadly disease?  I mean honestly...

If they were going to have running zombies, I wish they would have gone the route of the "Morningstar Plague" books. Where the zombie virus in a living human turns them into rage filled monsters. But while they are still capable of being killed like a normal human, if its not a headshot then the runner will them come back to life as a shambler and can only be dropped by a headshot.

EDIT: I find it so ironic that in the beginning of the first chapter one of the main characters is telling a US colonel how easily a virus like Ebola could spread all around the world just by being in a paerson who was on a plane.

audiobook is on youtube...yay youtube!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b7zi3HMgV8

[Inkidu]

I think my favorite part of the World War Z book (speak not of the cinematic abomination that bears its name) was the Mystery of North Korea, and how no one knows what happened even at the end - and no one was particularly inclined to find out.

Yeah, I liked that part, too. What I didn't like about the WWZ book though was that it was a little too self-serving.

Thermobaric over-pressure would be absolutely devastating against zombies. Over-pressure can basically liquefy any given organ in the human body, and so that giant ass bomb they dropped would have absolutely devastated large swaths of zombies. You don't even need a special bomb for it, any sufficiently large air-burst bomb would probably have a brutally effective kill-to-bomb ratio.

However, it doesn't work because black goo (which would actually make it worse (over-pressure is magnitudes worse in water than air). Still a good book, but he does kind of try to make his points first.     

[Mathim]

I think my favorite part of the World War Z book (speak not of the cinematic abomination that bears its name) was the Mystery of North Korea, and how no one knows what happened even at the end - and no one was particularly inclined to find out.

That's why I spake not of it. I'm really hoping all that crap about sequels was just bluster, too. Especially since the end of the first one basically made the entire thing seem like it had an airtight solution at the end. Typical Hollywood ending.

[TheGlyphstone]

Yeah, I liked that part, too. What I didn't like about the WWZ book though was that it was a little too self-serving.

Thermobaric over-pressure would be absolutely devastating against zombies. Over-pressure can basically liquefy any given organ in the human body, and so that giant ass bomb they dropped would have absolutely devastated large swaths of zombies. You don't even need a special bomb for it, any sufficiently large air-burst bomb would probably have a brutally effective kill-to-bomb ratio.

However, it doesn't work because black goo (which would actually make it worse (over-pressure is magnitudes worse in water than air). Still a good book, but he does kind of try to make his points first.   

Agreed. The Battle of Yonkers is the single part of the book that is utter nonsense. To make his plot happen, he basically has to give the entire US military lobotomies and replace the missing tissue with chunks of stupid. It's extra weird when the desperation and competence of the other national militaries in their own defenses (that we see) is plenty dramatic enough - but he decides being driven back past the Rockies and then reconquering America mile by mile is KEWL, so we get Yonkers.

[Wolven Soul]

Maybe they don't taste as good?

Bah, they're zombies, they don't care about taste.

[Mathim]

Bah, they're zombies, they don't care about taste.

Actually, in Marvel Zombies, they DO care about taste.

[Mathim]

Agreed. The Battle of Yonkers is the single part of the book that is utter nonsense. To make his plot happen, he basically has to give the entire US military lobotomies and replace the missing tissue with chunks of stupid. It's extra weird when the desperation and competence of the other national militaries in their own defenses (that we see) is plenty dramatic enough - but he decides being driven back past the Rockies and then reconquering America mile by mile is KEWL, so we get Yonkers.

If you also read the Zombie Survival Guide prior to reading World War Z, you get a much, much better idea of how the virus that animates zombies (Solanum) affects their physiology so it is much more believable that certain things that would affect humans would not do the same to zombies. Particularly where it describes what happens to the brain during infection.

[TheGlyphstone]

If you also read the Zombie Survival Guide prior to reading World War Z, you get a much, much better idea of how the virus that animates zombies (Solanum) affects their physiology so it is much more believable that certain things that would affect humans would not do the same to zombies. Particularly where it describes what happens to the brain during infection.

I've read it, and Solanum doesn't actually make it entirely believable, just gives more handwaved explanations. Solanum doesn't just reanimate corpses, it gives them magical superpowers of selective indestructibility. A normal moving corpse would be utterly crippled after weeks or months of movement, from the tiny microstrains and microscopic injuries that using our muscles to capacity puts on them. Humans can heal these tiny injuries, which is the fundamental of muscle-building exercise, but a zombie shouldn't be able to heal them. Just walking barefoot everywhere would eventually grind the soles of their feet down to the bone and make them unable to walk. The ZSG gives lip service to this, but ignores it in 'reality'. Zombies are too stupid to blink, so that same period should also accumulate dust and debris in the eyes that would leave them blind - except Solanum zombies are granted a magic sixth sense that can detect prey anyways, a fact the ZSG is pretty open on it being unsupported by science.  Solanum wipes its butt with the laws of thermodynamics, but it's also refreshingly honest about this - zombie cells magically require no energy to function indefinitely; producing oxygen in great quantities out of nowhere but needing neither food or water of any kind. There's a whole portion of the post-zombie book about finding frozen zombies and smashing them before they defrost again, but frozen human tissue will utterly destroy itself when the water - which has to still be there, since the virus does not consume it - expands and bursts the cell walls.

Also, the problems with Yonkers have nothing to do with the specific mechanics of Solanum anyways. When your plot requires that, for better or worse, one of the strongest and most experienced modern militaries in the world is digging foxholes for its tanks (who carry only anti-tank ammunition) and failing to bring enough bullets for their infantry (who are also in dug-in foxholes and trenches) against a millions-strong enemy with no weapons other than fists and teeth and no tactics other than a slow mass shamble forward, you're either making a clumsy political statement (entirely possible) or using Author Fiat to make your plot happen.


Don't get me wrong, the ZSG is probably one of the best-available flavors of 'zombie disease' in terms of plausibility. But it still requires a lot of handwaving to create a functional and remotely threatening post-mortem zombie, instead of just a lot of corpses.

(for reference, http://zombie.wikia.com/wiki/Zombies_%28Max_Brooks%29

[Oniya]

Foxholes for tanks?  That sounds like a M*A*S*H episode right there.

[TheGlyphstone]

Well, hull-down positions. I don't know what you call those when it's a tank, but it's a foxhole when you dig it for a human. The things you need to protect your tanks/people from the other team's incoming bullets. The things that zombies have none of.

Yonkers could have been won in an afternoon with a battalion of heavy tanks and a bazillion gallons of diesel fuel. Plow the tanks back and forth through the hordes, swapping out whenever the tracks start to get gummed up or the fuel tanks run low. It wouldn't kill most of what it hit, but a hundred cubic acres of immobilized zombies are a navigational hazard, not a threat to civilization. Or just a mobile battle in general, firing from vehicles. Or, as the viewpoint soldier mentions, PUTTING YOUR TROOPS ON TOP OF BUILDINGS INSTEAD OF IN TRENCHES.

[Inkidu]

If you also read the Zombie Survival Guide prior to reading World War Z, you get a much, much better idea of how the virus that animates zombies (Solanum) affects their physiology so it is much more believable that certain things that would affect humans would not do the same to zombies. Particularly where it describes what happens to the brain during infection.

Yeah, I read both, twice. It makes the brain mushy, and he gives a lot of lip service to that "black goo thing" that the zombie body has, but as I pointed out: Liquids actually intensify the effects of explosions.

Something explodes in water it will hurt you more than if you were a comparable distance on dry land. Not to mention that zombies could not walk on the bottom of the ocean and come out unharmed. Also, ice damage affects every liquid. The only way to stop ice damage on cells is to stop them from freezing (or freezing them absurdly quickly) which happens in none of it. Those two things get a hand-wave so I'm willing to let that slide I suppose, but it's pretty weak.

So bombs would still be a lot more effective than the books make them out to be. Now I agree fragmentation explosives are next to pointless because they're meant to propel shrapnel. However, the stuff dropped from planes usually doesn't concern itself with that. HE tank rounds would have been pretty useful (more than canister actually).

Also, Brooks apparently thinks we're still fielding the first-model M16 from 'Nam. Stuff that was fix during 'Nam, by the way. The M16 and AK-47 are both better than ever, and for zombie killing they now both take the standard NATO round because Russia is a good guy now.

Also, the 5.56 Nato is probably the better zombie killer. It's comparable to a .22 in weight and effectiveness.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love the books (remember I read them twice) they're a stealthy and subtle satire, but I just think he tends to fudge more than you'd expect to prove his point. *shrugs*

[NotoriusBEN]

Is it wrong that I find an upside to an apocalypse or horrible disaster being that a lot of stupid people will die in the process?

[TheGlyphstone]

Is it wrong that I find an upside to an apocalypse or horrible disaster being that a lot of stupid people will die in the process?

Sure, but a lot of smart people will die also. Things like apocalypses have a nasty tendency to be indiscriminate in who they kill off, and extremely smart people could in fact be more likely to die. Who's going to live longer in a zombie uprising, for example, Steven Hawking or Bubba Jones the gun-toting redneck?

[Mathim]

Sure, but a lot of smart people will die also. Things like apocalypses have a nasty tendency to be indiscriminate in who they kill off, and extremely smart people could in fact be more likely to die. Who's going to live longer in a zombie uprising, for example, Steven Hawking or Bubba Jones the gun-toting redneck?

Could we not be troubled to pick a smart person who isn't completely immobilized by a tragic degenerative condition? I mean, if you were going to (I assume) make up Bubba Jones, you could contrast him with brilliant yet neurotic cowards like the fictional Sheldon Cooper and Leonard Hofstadter. Smart as they are, they wouldn't stand a chance.

[TheGlyphstone]

I chose him specifically because he's an incredibly brilliant person and definite net contributor to humanity, compared to the fictional Bubba the Redneck (selected as a generic substitute for any number of real world low-IQ low-income stereotypical individuals) who is almost certainly not. But the 'stupid' person in this example, Bubba, has the much higher chance of surviving an apocalypse, intended to counter NotoriousBEN's implied point that an apocalypse would benefit humanity by killing off a lot of stupid people.

Though as much as I dislike them, I'd rate Sheldon and Cooper with pretty good odds of survival, if they can get their hands on firearms. Nerds and pop-culture geeks will be the people fastest on the uptake to see zombies for what they are, and their entire character concepts are basically being uber-nerds.

[Wolven Soul]

Though as much as I dislike them, I'd rate Sheldon and Cooper with pretty good odds of survival, if they can get their hands on firearms. Nerds and pop-culture geeks will be the people fastest on the uptake to see zombies for what they are, and their entire character concepts are basically being uber-nerds.

I don't know, they are pretty bad at paintball, so they must not be very good shots.

[TheGlyphstone]

I don't know, they are pretty bad at paintball, so they must not be very good shots.

Okay, there is that. Not that I care particularly much either way, they are two 'smart' people the world can definitely spare.

[Inkidu]

Is it wrong that I find an upside to an apocalypse or horrible disaster being that a lot of stupid people will die in the process?

A zombie apocalypse would be more like the Black Death. It's going to kill a lot of people and it isn't going to care who. A lot kids and babies are going to die, so are the old, the young, the smart, the stupid, the poor, and the rich.

Unlike what most media tries to portray this isn't a scenario where the virtuous and moral will survive because they're simply being virtuous and moral. (I'm not advocating going all dog-eat-dog, if we don't come through something like that with our humanity then what's the point?)

[Oniya]

If I were to look over the list of all the blindingly intelligent people I've known in my life, and mentally rank them against the rednecks I knew in Ohio (and I use this term affectionately in this case) and the mug shots I see on the police blotters, I'd have to say that the rednecks and mug shots would have better odds.  Having the ability to shoot a living thing without hesitation is going to be more important to survival than advanced physics.   LARPers and re-enactors would be another 'class' that I'd give the nod to - while not necessarily blindingly intelligent, they have a flexibility of thinking, a knowledge of tactics, and possible access to weaponry.  (Especially that WWII group down near Columbus.)

Medical personnel could either be an asset (keeping the living alive) or a hindrance (if a non-fatal bite-transmission still results in zombification), assuming that they were able to avoid getting infected during the initial 'What are we dealing with here' stage of the outbreak.

[Lustful Bride]

If I were to look over the list of all the blindingly intelligent people I've known in my life, and mentally rank them against the rednecks I knew in Ohio (and I use this term affectionately in this case) and the mug shots I see on the police blotters, I'd have to say that the rednecks and mug shots would have better odds.  Having the ability to shoot a living thing without hesitation is going to be more important to survival than advanced physics.   LARPers and re-enactors would be another 'class' that I'd give the nod to - while not necessarily blindingly intelligent, they have a flexibility of thinking, a knowledge of tactics, and possible access to weaponry.  (Especially that WWII group down near Columbus.)

Medical personnel could either be an asset (keeping the living alive) or a hindrance (if a non-fatal bite-transmission still results in zombification), assuming that they were able to avoid getting infected during the initial 'What are we dealing with here' stage of the outbreak.

This is why I love being in the middle ground. I love guns, have them in my home but also enjoy educating myself. *Begins planning to reconquer the world after the zombie uprising.*

[Mathim]

There are a lot of things you never really hear about during these kinds of movies that I feel should be addressed. For example, if most of humanity is wiped out and the survivors can't help but leave things unattended due to geography or lack of ability, then why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?" Little things like that just bug me. Even World War Z had a nuclear sub, but I'd have preferred at least one anecdote about someone taking it upon themselves (and a group of people capable of maintaining such a place) to break through a wall of zombies, get back inside the reactor, seal themselves in, stabilize it and defend it until backup could arrive.

[Lustful Bride]

There are a lot of things you never really hear about during these kinds of movies that I feel should be addressed. For example, if most of humanity is wiped out and the survivors can't help but leave things unattended due to geography or lack of ability, then why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?" Little things like that just bug me. Even World War Z had a nuclear sub, but I'd have preferred at least one anecdote about someone taking it upon themselves (and a group of people capable of maintaining such a place) to break through a wall of zombies, get back inside the reactor, seal themselves in, stabilize it and defend it until backup could arrive.

That was actually brought up in a comic book I recently read called "The Last Zombie" Where 2 military APCs and some soldiers are trying to get a scientist to an Undergroudn bunker/lab in DC to work on a vaccine.

In one of the issues they are trying to avoid a massive wildfire but are forced to go through it when their only way around it is through a radiated area caused by a reactor which went critical.

Still your idea...sounds genius!

[Inkidu]

I'm also not a proponent of Brook's bolt-action, rimfire love. Sure it's a good thing for the individual accuracy, but I think proper use of the M16 would provide more tactical flexibility if you had to move between zombie and human.

Also, the M16 is quite ubiquitous and it would have been smarter to equip America with those in WWZ then make a whole new firearm.

[TheGlyphstone]

There are a lot of things you never really hear about during these kinds of movies that I feel should be addressed. For example, if most of humanity is wiped out and the survivors can't help but leave things unattended due to geography or lack of ability, then why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?" Little things like that just bug me. Even World War Z had a nuclear sub, but I'd have preferred at least one anecdote about someone taking it upon themselves (and a group of people capable of maintaining such a place) to break through a wall of zombies, get back inside the reactor, seal themselves in, stabilize it and defend it until backup could arrive.

Frankly, most nuclear power plants probably won't be a huge danger at first, because they are so heavily automated in terms of safety procedures. Their emergency shutdown systems can't actually run out of power, since they make it, so in the instance of something going wrong, the whole thing will probably scram itself. Lead shielding won't last forever and cooling pools will eventually evaporate, so a nuclear plant will eventually irradiate itself heavily, but danger to the surrounding area would be purely a concern of slow contamination over time, not any sort of explosion. Fukushima, not Chernobyl. Absolutely not a place you want to be going into voluntarily, but leaving it to fester isn't going to cause some sort of catastrophic disaster.

From another site:

Look, zombie movies are genre stuff. Everything happens a certain way, because that's how things are "supposed" to go. It's no more accurate than proposing humans can shoot their way out of alien encounters because that's how every alien movie goes. We all understand what zombies are supposed to look like. A shambling hoard of groaning dead covered in rags coming after the wildly outnumbered living. That doesn't mean it is realistic.

Hell, what's with the rags, even? Mostly, we bury our dead in suits and such. In any scenario where only the recently dead arise, the undead horde should look pretty stylish.

Night Of The Fashionable Dead, coming soon to theaters.

[Mathim]

Frankly, most nuclear power plants probably won't be a huge danger at first, because they are so heavily automated in terms of safety procedures. Their emergency shutdown systems can't actually run out of power, since they make it, so in the instance of something going wrong, the whole thing will probably scram itself. Lead shielding won't last forever and cooling pools will eventually evaporate, so a nuclear plant will eventually irradiate itself heavily, but danger to the surrounding area would be purely a concern of slow contamination over time, not any sort of explosion. Fukushima, not Chernobyl. Absolutely not a place you want to be going into voluntarily, but leaving it to fester isn't going to cause some sort of catastrophic disaster.

From another site:
Night Of The Fashionable Dead, coming soon to theaters.

That's just it, though, contamination. I wasn't implying explosions but if a plant was anywhere near a source of running water, it could carry radiation to long distances. That's the danger I feel is never addressed.

And I think Zombieland covered the various dressings of the undead pretty well. A stripper with those little things covering just her nipples and a bikini bottom becoming a zombie was a pretty good reason for one not to be wearing her Sunday best.

[Inkidu]

Plenty of nuke power plants are near running water sources, and they're as safe as any other because the water that goes out is clean. If the plant shuts down it gets scrammed just like Glyph said and there's no runoff because--again--like Glyph said the water is evaporated off.

[Mathim]

Plenty of nuke power plants are near running water sources, and they're as safe as any other because the water that goes out is clean. If the plant shuts down it gets scrammed just like Glyph said and there's no runoff because--again--like Glyph said the water is evaporated off.

So if the coolant stuff runs out and the power control rods and such overheat, the plants are just automatically sealed to prevent fallout stuff from getting out? Just trying to see how this works. It didn't seem to be so clean-cut with that earthquake in Japan that knocked one out.

[Inkidu]

So if the coolant stuff runs out and the power control rods and such overheat, the plants are just automatically sealed to prevent fallout stuff from getting out? Just trying to see how this works. It didn't seem to be so clean-cut with that earthquake in Japan that knocked one out.G

Well, yeah, if the earth splits the dang thing in half, or if a meteor hits it it's going to crack wide open, but just up and not being run anymore? Not that big a deal. Though you shouldn't go or live anywhere near them, because well they usually provide no benefit in a post-societal future of most types.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18683_7-scientific-reasons-zombie-outbreak-would-fail-quickly_p2.html?wa_user1=6&wa_user2=Science&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

Pretty much why a zombie plague will never happen.

[TheGlyphstone]

So if the coolant stuff runs out and the power control rods and such overheat, the plants are just automatically sealed to prevent fallout stuff from getting out? Just trying to see how this works. It didn't seem to be so clean-cut with that earthquake in Japan that knocked one out.

More that the reactor is shut down/sealed first, as part of the scram. The coolant and control rods won't last forever, and the core will eventually melt, but every (Western) core generator is also inside multiple layers of containment, something extremely heat-resistant and radiation-absorbent (apparently metal and concrete for the most part). Modern reactors are designed to withstand outright full meltdowns as a worst-case scenario, as far as 'not releasing radioactive material' goes. A big part of Fukushima was the tsunami-caused earthquake that damaged the backup systems responsible for automatically scramming the system, and simultaneously shattered/breached the containment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor_safety_systems#Containment_systems

So what you get, once the coolant is gone, is a molten puddle of uranium inside a giant concrete/metal box. Enough radiation will escape to make, say, living in the reactor building a bad plan, but barring an earthquake or similar-scale natural disaster and/or deliberate damage to the containment, its environmental effects will be small.

[Mathim]

I see. So unless they cheap out on the construction of said safety features then it's unlikely anything will get through the cracks or a stuck door or something. It's hard to have faith that such will actually work out well considering I have no faith that mankind can actually successfully repel a zombie outbreak.

[TheGlyphstone]

Zombie are very bad at punching through concrete, and the whole point of the automatic safeties, barring catastrophic damage, is that they trigger automatically, so the ability or failure of humans to repel the zombies is immaterial.

Why the fixation on nuclear power, though? They have so much safety and redundancy specifically because they can be so dangerous. There are plenty of things that are slightly less dangerous and much less safe, that would cause terrible environmental damage too. Chemical refineries, just to think of one - all sorts of toxic stuff that could soak into the soil or leak into the waterways and devastate wildlife, with far flimsier contamination blocks. Gas or coal-fired plants....uncontrolled coal fires are scary, look up the town of Centralia PA if you don't believe me. Heck, actual nuclear weapons; they're subject to the same sort of contamination protections as civilian power sources, but with much higher odds of intentionally deploying them at the end in some futile effort to stop the hordes. Biological laboratories researching diseases, whose protections are extremely stringent and next to unbreakable when the biggest thing trying to break them needs a microscope to be seen, not so much when shambling corpses are banging on the windows.

[Oniya]

Gas or coal-fired plants....uncontrolled coal fires are scary, look up the town of Centralia PA if you don't believe me.

Or, for a quick mental image, realize that Centralia, PA is listed as one of the inspirations for Silent Hill.

[Mathim]

Zombie are very bad at punching through concrete, and the whole point of the automatic safeties, barring catastrophic damage, is that they trigger automatically, so the ability or failure of humans to repel the zombies is immaterial.

Why the fixation on nuclear power, though? They have so much safety and redundancy specifically because they can be so dangerous. There are plenty of things that are slightly less dangerous and much less safe, that would cause terrible environmental damage too. Chemical refineries, just to think of one - all sorts of toxic stuff that could soak into the soil or leak into the waterways and devastate wildlife, with far flimsier contamination blocks. Gas or coal-fired plants....uncontrolled coal fires are scary, look up the town of Centralia PA if you don't believe me. Heck, actual nuclear weapons; they're subject to the same sort of contamination protections as civilian power sources, but with much higher odds of intentionally deploying them at the end in some futile effort to stop the hordes. Biological laboratories researching diseases, whose protections are extremely stringent and next to unbreakable when the biggest thing trying to break them needs a microscope to be seen, not so much when shambling corpses are banging on the windows.

The answer to why I'm fixating on it is what I already said before: Nobody ever seems to touch on that in zombie apocalypses. No one ever says, "Hey, do you think maybe we should migrate a few furlongs further away from that abandoned power plant just in case something cracks open in there and releases Chernobyl juice all over our front porches?" I understand there have to be many safety levels but as Japan has proven, it's not nearly foolproof enough and without humans to maintain and supervise thing, long-term, if civilization does end up rebuilding, it's not a good thing to ignore.

[TheGlyphstone]

The answer is probably because no one really thinks about it, and/or because zombie apocalypse stories tend to focus on the 'now' instead of the 'later'; concerns about cleaning/repairing a run-down nuclear plant are much lower on the typical survivor's priority list than 'where will I find food tomorrow' and 'where can I sleep tonight without being eaten by zombies' and 'OH GOD THAT ZOMBIE IS TRYING TO BITE ME KILL IT'. But if you want to realistically explore that sort of threat, you're better off using a chemical refinery or something for an immediate we-don't-want-to-camp-here situation. Safely contained nuclear plants just aren't as dangerous to their surrounding as you want them to be unless severe physical damage on the level of an earthquake occurs. Once civilization has stabilized and rebuilt, old 'hot' nuclear plants could be looked at, but that requires civilization to be rebuilt first, since cleaning up a nuclear site, even a contained one, is a very resource-intensive task.

Incidentally, the exclusion zone for Chernobyl itself is a 30km radius, in three increasing bands of radioactive contamination, and you literally cannot have a nuclear reactor go more catastrophically wrong than Chernobyl did (it had no containment at all). So the safe distance depends on how badly your containment is breached, but either way less than a mile isn't likely to be appreciably different in healthiness.

[Mathim]

So unless someone blows open the walls in such a place trying to defend themselves against a horde of zombies in the unlikely event they're caught in that particular location with no backup and only explosive weaponry available, then barring a natural disaster, that's a moot point. Okay, good to know. But you can't count on crazy not playing a factor. Even in World War Z, there were incidents of people sabotaging things in an attempt to usher in the full apocalypse. Someone could elect to go the nuclear route and throw a big boom down a power plant chimney.

[TheGlyphstone]

Well sure, crazy is always an option, and you can build great stories out of crazy.

[Lustful Bride]

So unless someone blows open the walls in such a place trying to defend themselves against a horde of zombies in the unlikely event they're caught in that particular location with no backup and only explosive weaponry available, then barring a natural disaster, that's a moot point. Okay, good to know. But you can't count on crazy not playing a factor. Even in World War Z, there were incidents of people sabotaging things in an attempt to usher in the full apocalypse. Someone could elect to go the nuclear route and throw a big boom down a power plant chimney.

I find it sad that certain terrorist groups would likely try to do that if zombies ever rose up.

[TheGlyphstone]

Frankly, at that point most terrorist groups are probably going to have their own problems to deal with. Sure, they might not have to deal with as much security, but now they also have to deal with zombies. Lots of things closer to home for most of them to go apocalyptic on.

[Mathim]

Frankly, at that point most terrorist groups are probably going to have their own problems to deal with. Sure, they might not have to deal with as much security, but now they also have to deal with zombies. Lots of things closer to home for most of them to go apocalyptic on.

Not if they believe the zombies are agents of whatever twisted vision of deity they worship. Frankly it would be surprising not to see them going to work on this and saying, "Look, undead friends, we're helping you to destroy this world!" I mean, I don't know if I'd consider being devoured by a zombie a martyr's death, so they'd have to be kind of creative to make sure it happened that way.

I heard there was an Anthropology of Zombies class being taught at some university somewhere. Sounds like a hoot but I can't imagine it being part of any decent general education requirement. Of course there's also a class somewhere that revolves around the Marvel Cinematic Universe so who knows, maybe times are changing.

[TheGlyphstone]

Even if they can justify it, though, the first thing that'll go down is international travel. So even if they want to go wreak havoc somewhere else, they're pretty much limited by necessity to their immediate area, and their immediate resources-at-hand. They might certainly try, but at that point it'll be a drop in the water or at best a 'make the bad situation worse'.

[Mathim]

Well if security is lax at that point and hijacking is kind of their forte, I don't think that'll stop them.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen Flight of the Living Dead? It's almost a half-serious zombie movie about an outbreak on a commercial flight. It's almost like that plane scene in World War Z but stretched into an entire movie (ironically still better in every way than World War Z the movie).

[Inkidu]

I think the world by in large is far too genre savvy to fall prey to a zombie apocalypse.

That's sort of why I have a hard time taking the Walking Dead (comic or show). Is that it exists in a universe where not a damn soul has seen Night of the Living Dead 1969. :P

Also, everyone in the Brooksverse tends to take a daily stupid pill as well. :P

[Mathim]

I think the world by in large is far too genre savvy to fall prey to a zombie apocalypse.

That's sort of why I have a hard time taking the Walking Dead (comic or show). Is that it exists in a universe where not a damn soul has seen Night of the Living Dead 1969. :P

Also, everyone in the Brooksverse tends to take a daily stupid pill as well. :P

Knowledge is power but you forget emotion is weakness. And which of those two do you think most of humanity has more of?

I like how Resident Evil has classically allowed for just about every kind of animal (even Great White Sharks for crying out loud) to become zombies as well. That is a much more terrifying apocalypse and one much more believable to be more than we can handle. A horde of zeds might not be able to break through a concrete barrier but a full-on charging zombelephant or zombhino (zombie rhino) or a group of them might accomplish it. Or a zomonkey might be able to climb up to the upper floors if you've destroyed the stairs out of desperation in your stronghold and getcha.

[Lustful Bride]

I think the world by in large is far too genre savvy to fall prey to a zombie apocalypse.

That's sort of why I have a hard time taking the Walking Dead (comic or show). Is that it exists in a universe where not a damn soul has seen Night of the Living Dead 1969. :P

Also, everyone in the Brooksverse tends to take a daily stupid pill as well. :P

Actually in the walking dead universe the writers have said that George Romero was never born so he never started the zombie genre to begin with. sooo people have a valid reason there to actualy not know about zombies.

Also what do you all think of The Strain? ITs a zombie series combined with vampires...I like it to be honest and it seems in season 2 all hell breaks lose with the vamps (who act more like the rage zombies from 28 days later) just attacking everyone that they can find and draining them of blood as the Master vamp watches the city fall.

This is what ive been waiting for, along with more information about these Daywalkers who showed up all of a sudden. (no spoilers)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDVau1PPby8

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Good vampire: "Come with me if you want to live."

[TheGlyphstone]

Well if security is lax at that point and hijacking is kind of their forte, I don't think that'll stop them.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen Flight of the Living Dead? It's almost a half-serious zombie movie about an outbreak on a commercial flight. It's almost like that plane scene in World War Z but stretched into an entire movie (ironically still better in every way than World War Z the movie).

Cant't hijack something that doesn't exist. I mean, you can steal cars or whatever, but there aren't exactly planes available to fly around or ships going anywhere.

Actually in the walking dead universe the writers have said that George Romero was never born so he never started the zombie genre to begin with. sooo people have a valid reason there to actualy not know about zombies.

At least they justified it there. Too often it's just ignored.

[Inkidu]

I love The Strain, and I hate vampire fiction, but I love it because it reminds you what vampires are, monsters. 13th Century vampires not 19th Century ones.

Also on the Walking Dead, well that explains a few things. Though when that series premiered I made it through about half of the first season before blowing it off, and I love zombie fiction. 

[Lustful Bride]

I love The Strain, and I hate vampire fiction, but I love it because it reminds you what vampires are, monsters. 13th Century vampires not 19th Century ones.

Also on the Walking Dead, well that explains a few things. Though when that series premiered I made it through about half of the first season before blowing it off, and I love zombie fiction.

Mr. Quinlan is my new favorite vampire ever!  ;D

(The Vampire Swat team leader)

[Mathim]

Cant't hijack something that doesn't exist. I mean, you can steal cars or whatever, but there aren't exactly planes available to fly around or ships going anywhere.

At least they justified it there. Too often it's just ignored.

That's a bizarre presupposition. Did these things just vanish into thin air or are you assuming that by the time things get that out of control that they will already have been used up and either run out of fuel and become useless or will be too heavily occupied (in the case of boats) to be captured?

Personally if I could I'd get a boat (a big one) and dock it close to land, maybe chop up a bit of a pier (or what are those long wooden plank things that go over the water with long poles holding them up?) so no zombies could get on them from land but the boat would be at the right height for it just so we'd have a little more leeway in fighting the ones that do get in the water. The ones that get there on the shore will be more easy to pick off in that way than holing up in an urban or at least land-based fortress but once we start getting the upper hand we'll be close enough to land to do things like go raiding for supplies or set up agriculture. That way we don't sacrifice the ability to be self-sufficient by going too far out to see, but then we're not utterly dependent on the land for safety. It's win-freakin'-win baby!

Also, never seen the Strain. Saw the front cover of season 1 with the worm in the eyeball and thought, "Yeah, no."

[Lustful Bride]

Also, never seen the Strain. Saw the front cover of season 1 with the worm in the eyeball and thought, "Yeah, no."

Give it a try, you might like it. Also the worm thing turned you off? Made your skin crawl or did you go "this looks dumb."

[Mathim]

Give it a try, you might like it. Also the worm thing turned you off? Made your skin crawl or did you go "this looks dumb."

Well in my experience whenever they try to shock you with something like that on the front cover, it's to cover up the fact that it's a really underwhelming thing inside. I try not to reward that kind of cheap lack of ethics.

[Inkidu]

Mr. Quinlan is my new favorite vampire ever!  ;D

(The Vampire Swat team leader)

Oh I was all set to hate him too. Was like, "Oooh here comes the Drizzit vampire!" <--Literal words out of my mouth, and depending on how that cabal of shriveled vamps of his I might have to hate him via the group anyway, but I actually kind of liked the character.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's a bizarre presupposition. Did these things just vanish into thin air or are you assuming that by the time things get that out of control that they will already have been used up and either run out of fuel and become useless or will be too heavily occupied (in the case of boats) to be captured?

Personally if I could I'd get a boat (a big one) and dock it close to land, maybe chop up a bit of a pier (or what are those long wooden plank things that go over the water with long poles holding them up?) so no zombies could get on them from land but the boat would be at the right height for it just so we'd have a little more leeway in fighting the ones that do get in the water. The ones that get there on the shore will be more easy to pick off in that way than holing up in an urban or at least land-based fortress but once we start getting the upper hand we'll be close enough to land to do things like go raiding for supplies or set up agriculture. That way we don't sacrifice the ability to be self-sufficient by going too far out to see, but then we're not utterly dependent on the land for safety. It's win-freakin'-win baby!

Also, never seen the Strain. Saw the front cover of season 1 with the worm in the eyeball and thought, "Yeah, no."

I meant the planes, primarily. If they are trying to hjiack commercial airplanes, like hijacking tends to involve, those planes need to be flying, which means they need to have fuel. Commercial aviation is an incredibly complicated and intricate dance, and even a small problem somewhere can have major repercussions. Case in point, there was an incident a few months ago where a guy snapped and tried to burn down the Air Traffic Control building in Chicago O'Hare Airport. O'hare was shut down for a few hours until they were sure everything was okay. It took nearly a week for American domestic flight schedules to deal with the disruption. Now think of what a worldwide zombie uprising is going to do to all those schedules and arrangements. Airports will have fuel without the planes it's going to. There will be planes stranded at airports without fuel. There will be planes diverted to whatever airport they can find before their fuel runs out with no one to clear them for landing.

Terrorists like to sow chaos, but they do not like chaos. A lot of planning and preparation goes into any operation they consider remotely successful beyond 'guy with a bomb in a marketplace'. When infrastructure breaks down, their ability to commander that infrastructure for their own purposes breaks down with it.

They can capture all the boats they like, but boats kinda suck as suicide devices.

[Mathim]

I meant the planes, primarily. If they are trying to hjiack commercial airplanes, like hijacking tends to involve, those planes need to be flying, which means they need to have fuel. Commercial aviation is an incredibly complicated and intricate dance, and even a small problem somewhere can have major repercussions. Case in point, there was an incident a few months ago where a guy snapped and tried to burn down the Air Traffic Control building in Chicago O'Hare Airport. O'hare was shut down for a few hours until they were sure everything was okay. It took nearly a week for American domestic flight schedules to deal with the disruption. Now think of what a worldwide zombie uprising is going to do to all those schedules and arrangements. Airports will have fuel without the planes it's going to. There will be planes stranded at airports without fuel. There will be planes diverted to whatever airport they can find before their fuel runs out with no one to clear them for landing.

Terrorists like to sow chaos, but they do not like chaos. A lot of planning and preparation goes into any operation they consider remotely successful beyond 'guy with a bomb in a marketplace'. When infrastructure breaks down, their ability to commander that infrastructure for their own purposes breaks down with it.

They can capture all the boats they like, but boats kinda suck as suicide devices.

In the context of a chaotic 'Great Panic' scenario, I would think sowing chaos would already be achieved and merely a glorious fiery martyrdom would be the goal at that point. If airports were abandoned due to attempting to flee to other parts of the land or sea, then hijacking would be made all the easier and finding a heavily populated refuge to target would also be fairly simple. I'm just saying logistically it wouldn't be difficult to cause lots of problems and aiding the zombies' cause in wiping out the living.

[TheGlyphstone]

It's possible, but I think you are vastly underestimating the logistics involved. You're talking about
1)attacking an (abandoned, admittedly) airport, fighting through zombies in the process. Depends on how many zombies are around.
2) finding a plane they have trained on and know how to fly at the airport - flying a modern plane is hard,and only the most basic principles transfer between models. This is honestly the biggest problem they are going to face, and it really is a doozy.
3) finding sufficient aviation fuel to fill the plane's tanks, and fueling it up. Probably not that hard.
4) Finding a worthwhile target to crash into before the fuel runs out. If you're low enough to visually inspect the ground in a jumbo jet, you are either taking off, landing, or crashing, so you better already have your target in mind.

I suppose they could always just dive-bomb a city, which might meet their qualifications for self-martyrdom, but that is about it, and wouldn't really 'help' the zombies in any way. If their goal is to speed the apocalypse, they'd be far better off with traditional bomb-loaded vans or trucks and attacking barricades or fortified camps.

[Zakharra]

It's possible, but I think you are vastly underestimating the logistics involved. You're talking about
1)attacking an (abandoned, admittedly) airport, fighting through zombies in the process. Depends on how many zombies are around.
2) finding a plane they have trained on and know how to fly at the airport - flying a modern plane is hard,and only the most basic principles transfer between models. This is honestly the biggest problem they are going to face, and it really is a doozy.
3) finding sufficient aviation fuel to fill the plane's tanks, and fueling it up. Probably not that hard.
4) Finding a worthwhile target to crash into before the fuel runs out. If you're low enough to visually inspect the ground in a jumbo jet, you are either taking off, landing, or crashing, so you better already have your target in mind.

I suppose they could always just dive-bomb a city, which might meet their qualifications for self-martyrdom, but that is about it, and wouldn't really 'help' the zombies in any way. If their goal is to speed the apocalypse, they'd be far better off with traditional bomb-loaded vans or trucks and attacking barricades or fortified camps.

I'd like to add something to the reasons hijacking a plane might not work out; the military might be shooting down any unauthorized flight approaching their shores. Whether from an Air Force, Army or Naval launcher, the military would be making bloody sure -no- unauthorized flights would be coming in, or leaving. Or if they don't just shoot the plane down, they would likely be making damn sure any unexpected flights land at the proper airports (and probably provide an escort to make sure they do land where they are supposed to). In a zombie apocalypse, the military isn't going to be pulling any punches with anything.

[Wolven Soul]

Well if security is lax at that point and hijacking is kind of their forte, I don't think that'll stop them.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen Flight of the Living Dead? It's almost a half-serious zombie movie about an outbreak on a commercial flight. It's almost like that plane scene in World War Z but stretched into an entire movie (ironically still better in every way than World War Z the movie).

I saw it, it wasn't to bad at all.  I really enjoyed the premise of a zombie outbreak in the middle of a flight.  Coulda been better, but your right, still so much better than World War Z.

[Mathim]

I'd like to add something to the reasons hijacking a plane might not work out; the military might be shooting down any unauthorized flight approaching their shores. Whether from an Air Force, Army or Naval launcher, the military would be making bloody sure -no- unauthorized flights would be coming in, or leaving. Or if they don't just shoot the plane down, they would likely be making damn sure any unexpected flights land at the proper airports (and probably provide an escort to make sure they do land where they are supposed to). In a zombie apocalypse, the military isn't going to be pulling any punches with anything.

That would depend on how much of the military is left, the initiative of the surviving command, their priority list, and whether they think anyone flying a plane at the time is simply trying to escape being eaten or is attempting a laughably futile terrorism project. I'm just saying, humans making a zombie apocalypse even worse is inevitable, and spectacularly so.

[Lustful Bride]

This leaves me wondering what kind of culture would arise after the reconstruction of the zombie uprising.

Would we separate the heads of our dead like in the movie Fido before we bury them? Or would cremation become mandatory?

I know that the more sane religious groups would claim that the zombie outbreak was the work of the devil or their equivelant figure of evil. (And some idiots would claim god sent the dead to eat the living).

Would armed guards patrol hospitals and morgues?

[Zakharra]

That would depend on how much of the military is left, the initiative of the surviving command, their priority list, and whether they think anyone flying a plane at the time is simply trying to escape being eaten or is attempting a laughably futile terrorism project. I'm just saying, humans making a zombie apocalypse even worse is inevitable, and spectacularly so.

I don't think it would happen as much as you seem to be implying. The terrorists would be just as concerned about survival as anyone else and would be looking to just survive the first onslaught rather than trying to cause terrorist acts, especially since trying to cause such acts would be more than pointless. Unless the terrorists are willing to die fighting the zombies, they'd be far more concerned about survival than attempting to attack a target. Any military that does survive the initial rush would be looking out for security, and would be keeping an eye on the skies and seas.

Many major military bases would be somewhat ok. The naval forces would be fine (how would zombies get on the ships anyways?) and it wouldn't take long to clear and secure some major military bases (bombs and guns would destroy the zombies). Construction equipment could dig deep ditches and build tall earthen walls, and with modern weaponry(guns, planes, bombs/missiles, napalm, mines, IEDs) available, the base could be secured fairly easily.

[Madriv]

why does nobody ever say anything about, "Gee, we're squatting within X miles of a nuclear power plant that's got to have been abandoned at this stage. Shouldn't we maybe get Y miles away from it since that could represent a potentially worse hazard than the zombies?"

Z Nation devoted an episode to a nuclear plant that was about to blow. They also had an episode about a religious cult staging a terrorist coup on a "safe" military base. In the cliffhanger ending of season 1, they've set off a shitload of warheads aimed at strategic research/military locations.

I'm not saying the show incorporates accurate SCIENCE or logic or great acting but hey, they hit a variety of good points and it's a fun trip.

[Mathim]

Z Nation devoted an episode to a nuclear plant that was about to blow. They also had an episode about a religious cult staging a terrorist coup on a "safe" military base. In the cliffhanger ending of season 1, they've set off a shitload of warheads aimed at strategic research/military locations.

I'm not saying the show incorporates accurate SCIENCE or logic or great acting but hey, they hit a variety of good points and it's a fun trip.

Never even heard of that one. Gotta look that up.

[Madriv]

Never even heard of that one. Gotta look that up.

Season 1 is on Netflix if you have access to that. A refreshing watch after the endless angst of Walking Dead.

[Beorning]

Something for you, guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6I5hl1w0eg

[Mathim]

Something for you, guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6I5hl1w0eg

LOL, saw that one (trailer) years ago. And yeah, Walking Dead is just...that's why the comics are better, in any case.