Vic Mignogna

Started by TheMusician, February 21, 2019, 04:31:32 PM

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TheMusician

Honestly, I don't know how to start this discussion. Let me preface it with my opinion.

Vic, should not have his career of over a decade stripped away because of people cashing in on old mistakes. The man has apologized, even stood in front of a crowd of people, crying as he does it, apologizing for any hurt he's caused. Literally CRYING as he does it. But no, people keep coming up with stories, and people keep saying things that upon closer inspection...don't make that much sense.

For example, Monica Rial. Her account makes the story sound pretty traumatic, but she didn't say anything, at all, to anyone about it? And a month before the whole mess started, she even direct posted a tweet on one of Vic's tweets, where he posts a picture of him with several friends, presumably her included, to which she replies: "It was so much fun! *kissy face emoji*" I don't mean to place undeserved disbelief off one single post, but why would you post something like that, knowing what he allegedly did to you?

And then of course the old "Broken Staircase" analogy. People saying Vic is basically the Harvey Weinstein of the English dub anime industry. Well, if he's so well known for that, why would so many of these people put themselves in a position to be alone with him in the first place? Everyone says Vic is supposedly known for this, and he has admitted to being too handsy and too overly touchy, and apologized for it. But if you knew that already, why would you then put yourself in a position like that? It does not make logical sense. Vic's accounts also make it sound like their interactions prior to these allegations were bordering on flirting, and according to him, several of these people have kissed him, consensually, in the past.


I just find it very painful to watch such a central figure in my life, the voice of literally 285 characters, someone whose voice has been part of so many of my favorite stories, have his career burned at the stake because someone posted something on Twitter. Why is it that Twitter is suddenly judge, jury and executioner for someone who in my opinion, never did anything all that horrible to begin with. He never committed rape. He never groped anyone by the genitals/ in any sexual areas.

Some of these people have even falsified things to make him look bad, for crying out loud! A picture surfaced of him kissing a fan on the cheek. People spun that it was once again him being inapropriate, but the fan whose picture it was came out saying that the experience was not innapropriate, the event was one they had organized, and Vic had made their day. They even had family and friends present, according to their own words. The person even went on to state they wished Vic well, hoped he would recover and return from the scandal, and wished no negatives onto him. They also wished to not be related negatively to Vic in any way.



Let me know what you think. I find this treatment, this sort of internet trial culture, to be unfair, unjust, undeserved, and completely toxic to society.
The Most Musically Music Man. *Insert monocle-bearing gentleman*

Characters: https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=222634.0

Iniquitous

Let me start this by saying I know nothing about this.  I am just going through your post and picking out the things that need addressing.

1. For example, Monica Rial. Her account makes the story sound pretty traumatic, but she didn't say anything, at all, to anyone about it?
     As a survivor of rape, I can attest to how very fucking hard it is to come forward and speak up.  I did and you want to know what I got for it? Cops who did everything they could to make it seem like it was MY fault I was raped.  'What were you wearing when this supposedly happened?' 'You admit that you were drinking that night...' 'You said that you use to date one of the men you are accusing...'  And that was just the reporting stage of the nightmare. Then came the grand jury - which is just like the reporting stage only magnified by a billion because now you are standing in front of lots of complete strangers having to describe what was done to you in minute detail. Over and over and over.
     So - you seriously need to rethink this whole whine of 'why didn't she say something before now'.  We are treated like it is OUR fault, we are further victimized, and not believed.

2. And a month before the whole mess started, she even direct posted a tweet on one of Vic's tweets, where he posts a picture of him with several friends, presumably her included, to which she replies: "It was so much fun! *kissy face emoji*"
     Do you know what was going through her mind when she posted it? No?  Then you shouldn't speak about it.  I fucking faked a smile and laughing while stuck with the three who raped me.  Pretended that everything was fine until I could get to a phone to call for help.  For all you know, she felt like she had to pretend to keep her job/stay safe/protect someone she loved.  You do not know what kind of pull this man may have had in her life.

3. I don't mean to place undeserved disbelief off one single post, but why would you post something like that, knowing what he allegedly did to you?
     Yes, you do.

4. People saying Vic is basically the Harvey Weinstein of the English dub anime industry. Well, if he's so well known for that, why would so many of these people put themselves in a position to be alone with him in the first place? Everyone says Vic is supposedly known for this, and he has admitted to being too handsy and too overly touchy, and apologized for it. But if you knew that already, why would you then put yourself in a position like that? 
     Would you turn down jobs because of one person on the team?  If not, you have no right to ask this question.  People need to work to pay their bills, feed themselves and their
     families.

5. It does not make logical sense. Vic's accounts also make it sound like their interactions prior to these allegations were bordering on flirting, and according to him, several of these people have kissed him, consensually, in the past.
     Just because yes has been said before does not give consent to future encounters. Full Stop. The fact that you, a grown man, needs to be told this is worrying.

6. I just find it very painful to watch such a central figure in my life, the voice of literally 285 characters, someone whose voice has been part of so many of my favorite stories, have his career burned at the stake because someone posted something on Twitter.
     You have already chosen a side, there is no discussion to be had with you.  Everyone who has come forward is lying in your eyes and you will not believe anything against him. 

7. Vic, should not have his career of over a decade stripped away because of people cashing in on old mistakes. The man has apologized, even stood in front of a crowd of people, crying as he does it, apologizing for any hurt he's caused. Literally CRYING as he does it.
     Actions have consequences.  If this:
Quoteio9 spoke with more than 25 voice actors, cosplayers, industry professionals, convention employees, and former fans about their experiences with Mignogna. Many of them asked not to be named in fear of retaliation from Mignogna or his fanbase. These, along with the testimonials circulating online, paint a picture of a 56-year-old man who aggressively hugs, grabs, touches, kisses, and propositions women—often without asking for their consent. It happens at panels, in autograph lines, at private events, and behind closed doors. His behavior has become so known in the anime and comic convention communities that it’s more than an open secret.
(source: https://io9.gizmodo.com/one-of-anime-s-biggest-voices-accused-of-sexual-harassm-1832390505 ) is true, then he deserves everything he has gotten so far and more.  Full Stop. No ifs, ands, or buts.  He is a predator and HE is the danger to society.


Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


Regina Minx

Perhaps this is a thread that could have been better started by stating who Vic Mignogna is, what he's accused of, with sufficient background and context for a person that doesn't know either (read me) to understand what argument you're making and how sound it is.

Skynet

QuoteI just find it very painful to watch such a central figure in my life, the voice of literally 285 characters, someone whose voice has been part of so many of my favorite stories, have his career burned at the stake because someone posted something on Twitter. Why is it that Twitter is suddenly judge, jury and executioner for someone who in my opinion, never did anything all that horrible to begin with. He never committed rape. He never groped anyone by the genitals/ in any sexual areas.

Having talent is no shield against being a horrible person. This has existed for as long as entertainment has existed. For example, the writer of the Wizard of Oz was a full-throated supporter of the genocide of Native Americans.

QuoteFor example, Monica Rial. Her account makes the story sound pretty traumatic, but she didn't say anything, at all, to anyone about it? And a month before the whole mess started, she even direct posted a tweet on one of Vic's tweets, where he posts a picture of him with several friends, presumably her included, to which she replies: "It was so much fun! *kissy face emoji*" I don't mean to place undeserved disbelief off one single post, but why would you post something like that, knowing what he allegedly did to you?

There's often severe social and legal consequences when rape survivors speak out against their abusers. In the Soviet Union, Lavrentiy Beria was a serial rapist and child molester who often used his political connections to invite women to his house to abuse. Those he did not murder he gave flowers to as a "gift." If they refused the flowers, he would have them arrested and thrown in prison. Those who accepted he used to spin the narrative of them having a consensual relationship.

And it's not just authoritarian countries. In the good ol' US of A, the legal system itself was subverted to go easy on Jeffrey Epstein and let him spend only 12 hours a day in a cushy prison while he was allowed to free roam the other half of a day. Even though this was against the law.

Sexual predators come in all socioeconomic levels, but the ones with talent and power often use that status to subvert the justice system and use their own fanbase to protect them. This is not to say that I know for sure if Vic Mignogna's guilty of the accusations, but your lines of argument are not bulletproof.

Mantis Shrimp Prime

Quote from: TheMusician on February 21, 2019, 04:31:32 PM
I just find it very painful to watch such a central figure in my life, the voice of literally 285 characters, someone whose voice has been part of so many of my favorite stories, have his career burned at the stake because someone posted something on Twitter.


Well, first of all, you might want to take a step back and think about this for a minute and recognize that you have a serious bias here, due to your vested interest in him being completely innocent.

If it's not fair for a mob on twitter to condemn him because they heard some rumors, then it is equally unfair for you to attempt to exonerate him because he was a personal hero.

(And keep in mind that, the situation isn't "random people on twitter talking rumors". It's people relating their direct experiences with him, Funimation's internal investigation (after which they were comfortable letting go)... is it unassailable proof? No, but it should count for nothing. It should certainly be enough to counteract your "nah, I don't wanna believe my guy would do this" and make you think "maybe he isn't who I thought he was").



And here's the thing. At the end of the day, believing the people who have come forth and accepting he therefore isn't a good person, doesn't necessarily mean you have to sacrifice a huge chunk of yourself. Yeah, maybe you can't idolize him if you accept this is true. But you don't have to stop enjoying the same stories you always did, or even feel you can't enjoy his performances. Just don't invest so much into the man himself. It's a good lesson to learn because you don't fully know anyone.

RedPhoenix

TheMusician  - I have no idea who this person is or the specifics of what he's been accused of, but your defense of him is completely misguided. Honestly I just want to +1 everything Iniquitous said and I'm pleased to see her post because now I don't have to write it. Thank you Iniquitous.

I'm not a "Believe Everyone" type (I'm actually quite the opposite) but none of the questions you ask about these accusations are persuasive at all to anyone who has been in any sort of similar position. Sometimes you tell yourself it isn't happening. Sometimes you tell yourself it's a sacrifice you make to get the job and career you want. Sometimes you tell yourself if you can tough it out you get an edge over the people who can't. And sometimes you're just too scared, too ashamed of not fighting back, not saying something, and you just want to forget it and move on.

Especially when it involves a figure of power and influence and your dream is to work in the industry they are the "king" of. You know you'll be alone, people will use you as an example, people will distance themselves from you to gain favor. That's why these things only happen when a critical mass is reached. And then you hate yourself for hoping it happens to someone else so you won't be the only one. But then they don't want to stand up either.

So to sum up there, but nothing that you've pointed out is a problem at all. In fact even in your attempted defense I see more reasons to think it happened than that it didn't.

The fact that reporting is delayed, that people tried to act like things were fine, that people lived in denial or displayed less than total conviction or bravery after being victimized, none of that means it didn't happen. In fact, reading between the lines of your post what I gather is far more importantly that these accusations have been agreed with, by multiple other people - that many people agree with behavior, accusations, etc from their own personal knowledge is to me more of a sign that this is true than any delay or failure to be an ideal victim is any sign of lack of credibility. And from what you say it wasn't just a person or two, it was agreed with many times. And that tears only came when he was called out and finally facing repercussions. I'm not moved by that at all. A lot people are sorry when they get caught. Cry me a river.

Also, it's worth noting, you don't have to defend this guy just because you like what he's created. I certainly didn't throw away every DVD I own that involves anyone who's been outed for this sort of thing. Why waste my money because someone else is terrible? But I don't pretend like what they did didn't happen either. Where you draw that line is up to you.
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TheMusician

I want to preface this response by saying that what happened to you, Iniquitous, was horrible by every moral standard. I hope the people who wronged you paid for their crimes, and if they didn't, I'm sincerely and deeply sorry the system has failed you so spectacularly. The law should not make exceptions based on irrelevant factors like what someone was wearing, or whether they had previously been involved with the person who harmed them. I myself am a critic of how police handle cases like how you've described yours. I find it to be nothing less than disgusting that such failures of the law occur in our society. I'm sorry for what they put you through, and I can't begin to imagine what that felt like.


"As a survivor of rape, I can attest to how very fucking hard it is to come forward and speak up.  I did and you want to know what I got for it? Cops who did everything they could to make it seem like it was MY fault I was raped.  'What were you wearing when this supposedly happened?' 'You admit that you were drinking that night...' 'You said that you use to date one of the men you are accusing...'  And that was just the reporting stage of the nightmare. Then came the grand jury - which is just like the reporting stage only magnified by a billion because now you are standing in front of lots of complete strangers having to describe what was done to you in minute detail. Over and over and over.
     So - you seriously need to rethink this whole whine of 'why didn't she say something before now'.  We are treated like it is OUR fault, we are further victimized, and not believed."


I have questions because of how long it's been, and because if Vic is so well known for this, why did Monica only come out with this now? She claims that she only came out with her accusation because she was under the impression that her experience was a one-time incident, and that Vic did not do this to other women. For me, that is a red flag because I am by nature and from experience, a skeptical and cynical person. If Vic is so well known in the industry for being inappropriately handsy with fans and coworkers, why did it take her nearly a decade following her incident to say something? Vic couldn't have plausibly threatened her career; Monica has voiced far more characters than Vic has, including the likes of Bulma from Dragon Ball Z, an absolute JUGGERNAUT in the anime industry, not to mention the other 445. If Vic is so well known for this, and Monica had her own story to tell, and everybody in the industry has known for that long or even longer that Vic was being inappropriate, why did no one say anything before? As far as we know, Vic never went beyond the boundary of inappropriate contact. He never raped anyone. Now, that is NOT to say that what he has done is right, he has admitted such, and apologized before a convention full of people. He has been inappropriate, he has admitted such, and he's apologized. I'm not saying we need to totally forget everything he has done, but the fact that several people have attempted, and nearly succeeded, to fabricate further controversy to make him look worse is concerning. When someone does something wrong, they should be punished for what they have done wrong. If everything he's accused of is true, there is no need to fabricate these stories.


"Do you know what was going through her mind when she posted it? No?  Then you shouldn't speak about it.  I fucking faked a smile and laughing while stuck with the three who raped me.  Pretended that everything was fine until I could get to a phone to call for help.  For all you know, she felt like she had to pretend to keep her job/stay safe/protect someone she loved.  You do not know what kind of pull this man may have had in her life."


We actually have a rather good idea of what sort of pull he might have had in her life. Beyond their friendship, not much. He was a friend of hers, and she has said she had forgiven Vic for the incident she was involved in. Professionally, it would seem that Monica is more than equal to Vic in terms of reputation and influence. She's had near double the roles Vic has. Had she said something when her own incident occurred, I doubt Vic would have walked away without serious, and very significant consequences. Funimation and Roosterteeth dropped Vic the moment this controversy started. And as much as what he has admitted to doing is wrong, Vic has never, as far as we know, raped anyone, or otherwise been accused of such.



" Yes, you do."

No, I really don't. My doubt comes from experience and from observation of past events, as well as sketchy behavior on the side of those who want to continue to attack Vic. False allegations have been debunked, photoshopped images have been spread, and an employee of the company that supposedly was investigating Vic fabricated a swatting incident to make him and his fans look bad, as though the man hasn't admitted to being inappropriate. Monica can't have been so out of the loop that the industry rumors of Vic being inappropriate were completely unknown to her all these years. I doubt her claim because she contradicts her claim. My doubt is not the product of blind defense for Vic, or any hatred for Monica or Vic's accusers.

"Would you turn down jobs because of one person on the team?  If not, you have no right to ask this question.  People need to work to pay their bills, feed themselves and their families."


This isn't about turning down jobs. This is about people claiming that Vic is supposedly known for being inappropriate, the accusers knowing as much, but still going to be alone with him. I don't doubt for doubt's sake, I doubt because if I was a woman in the industry, and I several people told me Vic is inappropriate with colleagues and fans, I would avoid being alone with him. And if he did something, I would tell someone.


"Just because yes has been said before does not give consent to future encounters. Full Stop. The fact that you, a grown man, needs to be told this is worrying."

As far as I know, Vic's situation with Monica was not repeated a second time with her, or any of his accusers. Each situation was supposedly a one-time affair, without repeat offenses. If I'm wrong on this, I haven't yet seen information on the matter and I'll have to do better. But as far as what I know, have read and watched, Vic has not repeated these actions with any of his accusers, if they did indeed happen. Believe me, I have a very painful understanding that consent is necessary in an encounter of any form, nature, or type.


" You have already chosen a side, there is no discussion to be had with you.  Everyone who has come forward is lying in your eyes and you will not believe anything against him."

I haven't chosen a side. Vic has done wrong, he's apologized for it, and he is paying for it with his reputation as I type. However, everyone who has come forward, aside from Monica and some fans, has chosen to remain anonymous, despite Monica clearly not being affected physically by any of this. Nobody is going to get killed over this controversy. Vic's career? Probably, the way things are going. I believe some of the claims against him because he has admitted to being inappropriate with fans and colleagues. He has said that he has his own side to the story, but so far he hasn't made excuses or blamed anyone else for his actions. Can't say the same for Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. I also have to cast doubt because people close to the investigation by Vic's former employer, Funimation, have proven they aren't above fabricating evidence, something that should never be necessary.


"If this:- (Link) -is true, then he deserves everything he has gotten so far and more.  Full Stop. No ifs, ands, or buts.  He is a predator and HE is the danger to society."


We come to the most important question, even more important than the whys, the wheres, the who's, and the what's. The question: "Did it really happen?" Accusing someone of something is easy. Proving it is not. Has Vic been inappropriate? Yes. Absolutely, yes. But I think he acknowledges that and wants to change it. And I also think that it tells me something that the vast, totally overwhelming majority of support I see for him online, especially on YouTube, speaks volumes about what both men and women in the community feel about Vic.


The people who have accused Vic need to speak up, come out of anonymity, and make their accusations known. Vic's career, as far as it seems right now, is over. Unless Funimation and Roosterteeth do a complete 180 and rescind their closing him out of future projects, Vic is thoroughly finished in this community. They have nothing to lose. Nobody is going to get them killed over this. Nobody is going to die over this. Monica hasn't been harmed by this controversy, seemingly at all. She's still working with Funimation, and that's probably never going to change. If other actresses have accusations, they should level them at Vic for everyone to see. If he's such a monster, we need to know.

I need to pre-emptively apologize, because I am admittedly angry about this situation. I have a painful understanding of consent. I am, myself, a survivor of childhood sexual assault, and a victim of relentless bullying throughout junior and senior highschool, and a former drug addict. I am the friend of a someone, who chose to cut his wrists and bleed to death because his girlfriend preferred to tell her parents that she was pregnant because he raped her, dragging his name through the mud for two fucking years before admitting she lied because she was afraid to admit they'd been having consensual, unprotected sex. His reputation was ruined, and he had to leave the state. I didn't even have the ability to talk to him, or find out he was dead until his family contacted me, with an invite to his funeral.

The only, ONLY reason I mention this; which before anyone says anything, you don't have to believe, because this is the internet; is because it taught me a harsh lesson. Anybody can lie about anything, and it can ruin, or even end, someone's life. People lie about being victimized. Look at Jussie Smollet. Shamelessly lied about being attacked, just to stir up drama and attention. I'm not going to assume that the women coming forward about Vic are doing the same, but I have the experience and the skepticism to say that I will not automatically cast guilt on someone, or innocence on someone, based on nothing.
The Most Musically Music Man. *Insert monocle-bearing gentleman*

Characters: https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=222634.0

RedRose

Is this it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Mignogna#Sexual_harassment_allegations

What bothers me is that there are several people claiming the same? It's different from one person accusing.
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Phoenixrisen

I don't really know anything about the scandals going on, and as such won't speak to any points being made by either side in those regards. Maybe I should just entirely keep my nose out of it without researching first. Feel free to lambast me for not doing so. What I can bring to this thread though is a personal perspective from someone who has, briefly, met the fellow.

I was working the registration desk of an anime convention in Idaho in 2006 (specifics withheld to ensure not giving potentially personally identifying information in thread. If you want to dig into it, PM me and I'll be more specific.) I was ridiculously pregnant, and his name for whatever reason, probably cause I should have recognized it but I was very new to anime at the time, wasn't on the list.

He could have been a diva about it when I had to radio for the con head. He would have been well within rights. Instead he was very good natured about it, flirting and making me feel at ease and gorgeous the whole time. The man has charisma in spades. While I didn't personally attend, I was very pregnant and very tired, he also had at least one room part that was attended by my now ex husband at which there was bare minimum a ton of alcohol. You put all these things together, and I can see where issues could arise.

Again, I'm not taking a side, I don't know enough to do so. Merely relating a personal experience with the fellow to give some context for others.
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submissiverapport

I haven't kept up with this controversy, but I think there's a lot of "listen and believe" involved. I think it's crucial that any claims against him be investigated, but at the same time, people need to wait and see whether they can determine if something happened instead of jumping on the lynch mob bandwagon.

Iniquitous

Quote from: submissiverapport on February 28, 2019, 05:05:13 PM
I haven't kept up with this controversy, but I think there's a lot of "listen and believe" involved. I think it's crucial that any claims against him be investigated, but at the same time, people need to wait and see whether they can determine if something happened instead of jumping on the lynch mob bandwagon.

TWENTY-FIVE people all said the same things about this cretin!  I think at that point you have to realistically look at the situation and go 'yeah... he's not innocent.'
Bow to the Queen; I'm the Alpha, the Omega, everything in between.


Silk

Quote from: submissiverapport on February 28, 2019, 05:05:13 PM
I haven't kept up with this controversy, but I think there's a lot of "listen and believe" involved. I think it's crucial that any claims against him be investigated, but at the same time, people need to wait and see whether they can determine if something happened instead of jumping on the lynch mob bandwagon.

Well thats kind of the problem and why this situation smells quite a bit.

As it stands there has been absolutely 0 claims about Vic to the police. It's been nothing but a social media shit flinging match between the two sides. (Although Monica has been very liberal in threatening legal action against anyone who has been asking for evidence about the claim. (She claims to have it) and there has been several whistleblowers claiming that they have in fact forged evidence against him. The only legal action that has actually happened so far is Vic suing Funimation and associated voice actors for defamation of character ( I believe) So yeah it's a bit smelly

Quote from: Iniquitous on February 28, 2019, 08:30:25 PM
TWENTY-FIVE people all said the same things about this cretin!  I think at that point you have to realistically look at the situation and go 'yeah... he's not innocent.'

It could be 10,000 people claiming it, unless it's backed by some kind of evidence it's irrelevant. If it was just the sacking it be one thing, but the constant vitriol coming out, now unless they can back up their accusations Vic has legitimate grounds to sue for slander and defamation.

Anyway that's my two cents from watching both sides. (Because honestly I don't really care either which way, but 2019 has had a lot of hoax's and false allegations going around, and the social media mob is only making the situation worse.)

Regina Minx

Quote from: Silk on March 02, 2019, 11:18:12 AM
It could be 10,000 people claiming it, unless it's backed by some kind of evidence it's irrelevant. If it was just the sacking it be one thing, but the constant vitriol coming out, now unless they can back up their accusations Vic has legitimate grounds to sue for slander and defamation.

People giving testimony about things that happened to them, either formally or informally, is evidence. It's called eyewitness evidence. It has both qualitative and quantitative features. But it is evidence.

Silk

Quote from: Regina Minx on March 02, 2019, 11:52:46 AM
People giving testimony about things that happened to them, either formally or informally, is evidence. It's called eyewitness evidence. It has both qualitative and quantitative features. But it is evidence.

Yes but those are testimonies, which are often officially conducted by police and reported to be used as evidence. (which as I said, to my knowledge none of the accusers have actually gone to the authorities about this, just social media) The reason the difference between a casual accusation to a testimony is that it is recorded and then investigated/cross examined to ensure that the events likely too place. They haven't done this, so I refer to my original statement that 10,000 claims means nothing.

Regina Minx

Quote from: Silk on March 02, 2019, 12:22:39 PM
Yes but those are testimonies, which are often officially conducted by police and reported to be used as evidence. (which as I said, to my knowledge none of the accusers have actually gone to the authorities about this, just social media) The reason the difference between a casual accusation to a testimony is that it is recorded and then investigated/cross examined to ensure that the events likely too place

People telling other people about what happened to them is evidence that that thing happened. It has both qualitative and quantitative features. But it is evidence.

Quote from: Silk on March 02, 2019, 12:22:39 PMThey haven't done this, so I refer to my original statement that 10,000 claims means nothing.

Ten thousand times a non-zero number is not zero.

I think the problem is that you've confused legal standards, which are confounded by risk theory, with a basic sense of epistemology...what things can we believe with warrant. You or I could believe to a near absolute certainty that a person is guilty of a crime and yet never be able to prove that in a court of law by the standards therein. What the law wants to do is not simply warrant belief, but also reduce the frequency of bad outcomes (innocent people being jailed, for example), and thus it manages risk by setting higher standards when worse outcomes are risked. So civil court requires a much lower burden of evidence than criminal court because the cost of being wrong is less. Likewise, private organizations will have their own fact-finding standards (such as determining whether an employee stole or harassed someone) that are even lower than those of civil court, yet still adequate to warrant some measure of human belief, all simply because the risk of their being wrong is likewise lower.

This makes the law not the best model for a general epistemological theory, except insofar as we want to talk about not epistemology but decision theory: what level of certainty should we have before making a certain decision based on our belief.

We are two people on the Internet. The risk of being wrong is about as low as it can possibly get, and the nature of the claim is about as mundane as you can possibly get. Someone is alleged of inappropriate and unwanted physical contact. It happens all the time. It happens every day. Usually, all the evidence you get about it is people telling you about what happened and there is no elevation of that report to 'testimonial' status because it never gets to court. Yet you are perfectly warranted to believe it because it's not the sort of thing that is super rare in which you would want to have more solid evidence.

Mantis Shrimp Prime

As far as "fabricating evidence" goes,
I have seen a screenshot from facebook, where one person is apparently suggesting they photoshop a picture, and a bunch of other people disagreeing with them.

Looking at one video of some youtuber "reporting" on it, and he expresses bewilderment that those people are willing to "falsify testimony" but not edit a photo.
Which, like... okay, dude.

Haven't seen any other context for that, but many seem to take it as hard proof there are malicious "shadow groups" out to get him.

Another part of it is revolving a news site taking someone's photo where he's giving a fan a kiss on the cheek, and presenting it as a nonconsensual act. The fan later came forth and said she asked to take pictures with him.
So, fault on the news site for using someone's photo out of context and without permission, but that doesn't really say anything against the people who are coming forth with their own stories.


There's apparently other stuff, that I see people referencing, that I couldn't find directly. It's kind of a chore to poke around all the "#IStandWithVic" people since they have a ton of their own speculation and rumor they're just baselessly throwing around and they're all clearly biased against any claim of sexual misconduct, period. It makes it really hard to take seriously anything they have to report on the matter.





Soveliss

I know I'm gonna get hated for this, but here is what I think of #metoo and of the whole Vic Mignogna situation.

It's a whisper campaign. Whisper campaigns are easy to start and carry no consequences for those who start them.

When I was in middle school, everyone knew I cheated on every test and was a serial thief. Well, except I never did cheat on tests nor did I ever steal anything. But every time something disappeared, it was supposedly because I stole it, and every time I aced a test, it was because I cheated. People saw me pocket whatever disappeared, or saw me take out a prewritten sheet of answers for the test. No one warned the school's administration of course, but I was harassed because I was a thief who cheated on exams.

Now, I was naturally academically gifted so at least the rumor that I cheated made some amount of sense, in that I had consistently good grades and looked mostly bored in several classes (because they were too easy). But where did that thief rumor come from? Even today, I have no idea why everyone in middle school  thought I was a thief.

It was indeed a #metoo a decade before #metoo was a thing. If facebook was more popular at the time, there could have been my face next to "thieves at [the middle school I went in]".

My point? There were rumors of wrongdoing in an entire school, despite me never having done any of this, no one ever went to the official channels about them, and it was enough to get me, a nobody who just had good grades, branded me a cheater and a thief. Nobody who ever started the rumors got in trouble for them, and I was harassed because of what people believed I was. All it took was someone to start making up stuff for some reason I'm not aware of that probably made sense to them.

That's the power of a whisper network. All you need are a few people with a grudge against someone for any perceived wrongdoings (and it can be as simple as jealousy), and you can ruin someone's life without any kind of accountability, and without having to provide any kind of proof. No one deserves being the target of a whisper network. We have things like "rule of law", "trials" and "innocent until prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" because a whisper network can convict anyone, at anytime, and no one, especially not innocents, can defend against a whisper network. Even if you somehow manage to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that whatever the whisper network accused you is false, the whisper network will either make up a new accusation within minutes to hit you with, make up a reason as to why your evidence doesn't matter, or both.

I'll believe Vic Mignogna is guilty of sexual crimes when he'll be tried in a court of law and found guilty. Because the alternative is taking a crutch to beat up a kid who had good grades because someone knows from his buddy's third cousin that said kid only had good grades because he cheated, and another buddy's fourth cousin has seen him pocket someone else's belongings. I've been that kid. I know a few people who have been accused through a whisper network. None of them believed it would happen to them until it did.

Soveliss out.
Winning against depression is possible, I know it, I've done it! I had help, sure, and couldn't have done it without help, but I still won!

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Deamonbane

Two prolific dub actresses (Monica Rial and Jamie Marchi) have openly and publicly accused Mignogna of sexual assault. That is by definition not a whisper campaign.
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

Soveliss

And I'm sorry, but accusations on twitter (I have a snarky nickname for twitter, but it's really crude so I'm not gonna use it)/fakebook are whisper campaigns. I could literally make a bogus accusation of literally anything against literally anyone in under 15 minutes, including the time it takes me to create a fakebook/twitter account. I don't care how high profile you are, if I can do it in under 15 minutes without a shred of evidence, so can anyone else. And actually, being famous only makes it gain momentum easier.

I'm still waiting for a trial because anyone can accuse anyone else of anything on twitter/fakebook, no evidence required, unlike a trial where you need evidence. I've been tried in the court of public opinion in the past, for serial theft and cheating on tests. I know I'm repeating myself, but literally anyone can accuse literally anyone else of literally anything on social media, and at no point is any form of evidence vetted and introduced on a fakebook trial. That's why, on principle, I give absolutely 0 value to the "verdict" of a fakebook kangaroo court. Until Vic is proven guilty by actual evidence by a real court, he's innocent. I know that some guilty people with get away for their crimes. But that's still better than a world where anyone can be destroyed if anyone else felt like it that day. Because trust me, I've got a few scores to settle with people who have not to my knowledge committed any legal crimes. I know what it's like to have a grudge. I could make a fake fakebook account and accuse the people with whom I have a grudge of sexual misconduct. It'd take less than 15 minutes for each of them. And if a random university dropout with a grudge can do it, I don't doubt it would be easier for a celebrity.

So no, an accusation on twitter/fakebook isn't proof of anything. So I'm waiting for a real trial. Vic is innocent, since he hasn't yet been proved guilty. So is everyone who's accused him. I mean, it's interesting the ones accusing Vic are not trying to bring it to trial while Vic is, but until I see how the trial ends? I'm not gonna believe anyone.
Winning against depression is possible, I know it, I've done it! I had help, sure, and couldn't have done it without help, but I still won!

"Work together as a team
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Starting an IC on E forums OOC on Discord experiment. If you're okay with discussing plot details and exchanging status updates on Discord while keeping RPs on Elliquiy's forums, you can ask me for my Discord ID.

Regina Minx

Quote from: Soveliss on March 25, 2019, 09:11:16 AM
Until Vic is proven guilty by actual evidence by a real court, he's innocent.

No. Due process protections absolutely, positively, do not prevent the lay public from evaluating the veracity of accusations and judging for themselves if they find the accusations credible. Moreover, with a certain class of claims, it's not just appropriate to make private judgments without the benefit of due process, in many cases it's necessary. Sometimes claims are so old that there is no viable path to legal adjudication unless Mignogna himself initiates a defamation lawsuit. If the does file a complaint, the truth of the accusations is a defense and would crack open the possibility of discovery, sworn testimony and potentially a trial. But throughout even that legal process, the public can still make judgments about claims. We do it all the time. I will bet real money that the majority of the people reading these words believe OJ Simpson murdered his wife despite being found not guilty of that crime. Why? Because they've weighted the facts for themselves.

I see many claims about protecting the standards of due process and suspect that there's a double standard at play. Calling for due process when that's not possible is a good way to coax people to ignore problematic claims while soothing guilty consciences. It's not that they are looking to excuse sexual misconduct, they just want to wait for a trial that will probably never happen. In the meantime, you can support someone whose work you like or goals you align with.

I don't know if Vic Mignogna committed the things he's alleged to have. But I don't have to wait for a trial to make that judgment, and neither do you. Due process does not apply.

Soveliss

You know, I'm gonna repeat myself.

Everyone "weighted the facts for themselves" and knew for damn sure I cheated on tests and was a serial thief. I know what it's like to be tried in the court of public opinion, and I wasn't even tried for sexual crimes. And guess what: it's a freaking kangaroo court, where I was tried in absentia and was sentenced to a beatdown with a metal crutch. And that's why I'm waiting for the trial: because when it comes to choosing between a flawed court where sometimes, guilty people go free, and a kangaroo court where pleas of innocence are guilty of wasting the court's time...

Well, the first option seems the least worst option. And until someone invents a time machine that's limited to observation only, which would allow us to see what actually happened with 0% chance for mistakes, I'm gonna rely on a flawed court of law instead of fakebook campaigns, thank you very much.

No one deserves the "trial" I've gotten, and I'm one of the "lucky" ones since I still managed to rebuild my life afterwards.
Winning against depression is possible, I know it, I've done it! I had help, sure, and couldn't have done it without help, but I still won!

"Work together as a team
Download douchey hats on Steam"
                                                        Brentalfloss

Starting an IC on E forums OOC on Discord experiment. If you're okay with discussing plot details and exchanging status updates on Discord while keeping RPs on Elliquiy's forums, you can ask me for my Discord ID.

Regina Minx

Quote from: Soveliss on March 25, 2019, 11:13:14 AM
Well, the first option seems the least worst option. And until someone invents a time machine that's limited to observation only, which would allow us to see what actually happened with 0% chance for mistakes...

Epistemologically, a "0%" chance for mistakes is just about impossible. There is always some nonzero probability, however small, that you are wrong about something; even things you observe with your own two eyes. Furthermore, not even "beyond a reasonable doubt" in a courtroom setting requires 100% certainty, and that certainly doesn't apply to less rigorous standards (such as "to the preponderance of the evidence" which literally means more than 50% and is also the standard of proof required in a civil case). "Probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion" require even less conviction before permitting action in law enforcement and legalistic settings.

As I said earlier, the standards of court are not the best on which to found an epistemology, since there is the added complication of risk management to the procedures used to warrant belief.


Sara Nilsson