Trump

Started by Vekseid, February 01, 2017, 02:59:22 AM

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TheGlyphstone

 I tend to look at Quebec as the Canadian version of Texas - seemingly determined to speak a different language and full of loud angry seperatists/secessionists.

Fury Aphrodisia

Hahahha, that's not inaccurate. Though instead of trying to kill you with their gun collection and red meat, they rely on passive-aggressiveness, an in-depth knowledge of French curses and second-hand smoke.
Fire and Flora - My Ons and Offs  - Updated May 17th '17 ---- Aphrodisia Acedia - (A&A's) - Updated September 9th '17 ---- Sinful Inspirations - Story Ideas - Updated May 17th '17

~I am not the voice of reason: I am the voice of truth. I do not fall gently on hopeful ears. I am strident and abrasive. I do not bend to the convenience of comfort. I am unyeilding. I do not change with wind and whim, but am always standing, unchanging, steady, constant and persevering. You rebuke me when you need me most, yet still I fight. The enemies of truth are everywhere. But I am not defeated.~

Oniya

Quote from: Fury Aphrodisia on February 09, 2018, 10:07:10 AM
Hahahha, that's not inaccurate. Though instead of trying to kill you with their gun collection and red meat, they rely on passive-aggressiveness, an in-depth knowledge of French curses and second-hand smoke.

And probably not as likely to succeed if they ever accomplished secession - Texas has a completely independent power grid, unless things have changed recently.
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Ari the Witch

Quote from: Fury Aphrodisia on February 09, 2018, 10:07:10 AM
trying to kill you with their gun collection and red meat
As a vegan, this made me laugh so hard. XD

TheGlyphstone

Quote from: Arian Sinclair on February 09, 2018, 10:26:04 AM
As a vegan, this made me laugh so hard. XD

As a not-getting-shot-ian, I also laughed. ;D

Fury Aphrodisia

I love that, in the meantime, nobody is putting their hand up and saying "I also dislike inhaling second-hand smoke."
Fire and Flora - My Ons and Offs  - Updated May 17th '17 ---- Aphrodisia Acedia - (A&A's) - Updated September 9th '17 ---- Sinful Inspirations - Story Ideas - Updated May 17th '17

~I am not the voice of reason: I am the voice of truth. I do not fall gently on hopeful ears. I am strident and abrasive. I do not bend to the convenience of comfort. I am unyeilding. I do not change with wind and whim, but am always standing, unchanging, steady, constant and persevering. You rebuke me when you need me most, yet still I fight. The enemies of truth are everywhere. But I am not defeated.~

Fury Aphrodisia

Quote from: Oniya on February 09, 2018, 10:17:21 AM
And probably not as likely to succeed if they ever accomplished secession - Texas has a completely independent power grid, unless things have changed recently.

Well, each province has their own power generation as far as I know, but we've also had votes where it's come perilously close to cutting Quebec out altogether. I think the only holdout on that note is that there are provinces on the other side of Quebec from places like Ontario and the other mainland provinces that would be cut off from the rest of the country. I honestly believe that there would be a far different vote if we could solve that problem.
Fire and Flora - My Ons and Offs  - Updated May 17th '17 ---- Aphrodisia Acedia - (A&A's) - Updated September 9th '17 ---- Sinful Inspirations - Story Ideas - Updated May 17th '17

~I am not the voice of reason: I am the voice of truth. I do not fall gently on hopeful ears. I am strident and abrasive. I do not bend to the convenience of comfort. I am unyeilding. I do not change with wind and whim, but am always standing, unchanging, steady, constant and persevering. You rebuke me when you need me most, yet still I fight. The enemies of truth are everywhere. But I am not defeated.~

Ari the Witch

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on February 09, 2018, 10:30:49 AM
As a not-getting-shot-ian, I also laughed. ;D
XD High five to that, mate.
Quote from: Fury Aphrodisia on February 09, 2018, 10:47:32 AM
I love that, in the meantime, nobody is putting their hand up and saying "I also dislike inhaling second-hand smoke."
Hello, carcinogens! It's not as if it's a secret that smoking is dangerous for both the smoker and those they come into contact with like it was in the beginning. We should also be raising our hands and saying that.

ReijiTabibito

Quote from: Fury Aphrodisia on February 09, 2018, 12:31:36 AM
No way. That'd totally be swathes of the Maritimes. I've lived in both. Quebec is an anomaly. It's more like if you dropped an Italian village structure in the middle of a strangely frozen wasteland, filled it with the snooty German folks from Pitch Perfect II, made them live like a scene from Rent and threw in a lot of self-possessed pop-culture references that were insular and belligerently insisted that you learn a foreign language on the spot. Well, some parts of it, anyway.

Basically, Quebec is what you'd get if Aliens tried to recreate a human experience based off weird D-list movies and hipster literature from the 1910's.

Okay.  So Quebec is definitely Not Your Standard Canada, but not quite what I had initially envisioned it to be.  Thanks!

Vekseid

Quote from: ReijiTabibito on February 08, 2018, 05:46:53 PM
90 years ago?  Segregation was still a thing.  So was Jim Crow.  And it would be for roughly the next 40 years after that.  The South was still largely Democratic at that time, with the reviled Republican Party being the 'Party of Lincoln.' Why don't we start there?

Hell, anything to do with the South up until the mid-1960s was basically fueled by Dixiecrats, so pretty much anything there.

I was referring to active measures, but at least you acknowledge with the Dixiecrat comment that this is the modern Republican party.

QuoteSince then?  Try the fragmentation of minority families, spurred on primarily by programs like LBJ's Great Society, which tried to help poor minorities but instead of insisting on intact families to qualify for benefits, insisted on single-parent homes.  Daniel Moynihan published a report in the early 1970s urging national action on what he saw as the disintegration of the black family, naming public policies that - while intended to help them - ended up backfiring and doing more harm than good.  The illegitimacy rate then was 25% in the black community; today it is upwards of 70%.  Despite studies that demonstrate lower rates of teen crime, drug use, alcohol use, young motherhood, and better scholastic achievement from two-parent households, I haven't heard word one from any Democrat urging for higher marriage rates.  (Though they did expand the pool of those who can get married, that I will give them.)

So you repeat a right-wing lie, and ignore the Nixonian war on drugs.

Quote
Try their abandonment of labor unions in the 70s, one of the few American institutions that enabled those from working-class backgrounds to transcend the economic circumstances of their birth and join the middle and upper-middle classes.

Try the failure to oppose Ronald Reagan (and his follow-up Bush the First), whose pro-business and union-busting policies set the stage for the financial hellhole millions upon millions of Americans live in now.  The House was controlled by the Democrats during all of Reagan's administration - his policies could not have been enacted without their support in some fashion.  The House, FTR, was controlled by the Democrats from 1954 until the second half of Bill Clinton's first term in office.  In short, they controlled the chamber for approximately 40 years.

Yeah, they tried nothing, alright. Reagan invented a new weapon to fight them with, and people were blaming them.

Quote
Speaking of Bill, try his tightening of federal welfare requirements, which we're still feeling today.  Try his repeal of Glass-Steagal, which set the stage for the Great Recession. 

Then that is a travesty of justice that has been allowed to occur in our land, and I do not abide it.

Ah yes, the 'pin it all on Clinton' strategy. There is also the investigation that also was shut down in 2004, though I can't find a link to it.

There were still checks and balances to stop what happened, and it was in 2004 that those finally got voided.

Nonetheless, everything you mentioned together - even assuming the truth of it - still doesn't make up for the lowered mathematical education and risks to critical thinking that Betsy DeVos' nomination represents. These are the weapons and defenses of our future, and the currency by which the world's fate will be decided.

Quote
Under FDR, the Democrats responded to a national crisis.  The Republicans were a party of smaller government at that point (the major outliers to that were either well behind or far ahead in a single instance), and the Great Depression was something that could not be handled by state governments alone, no matter how well they all coordinated together.  FDR's first election was backlash for the Depression, which was Hoover and thus the Republicans.

Elections two and three were votes to, more or less, continue the New Deal because the country still hadn't recovered from the Crash yet.

Election four was because they were in wartime, and the country did not want to change leadership mid-war.  The last time a country had an election during wartime was back during The Civil War, and Lincoln only managed re-election due to Sherman's capture of Atlanta.

As for the economic expansion, yeah, that happened.  But that happened primarily on the backs of the Second World War, since the US was busy cranking out material for the US, the Brits, the Free French, the Soviets (to a limited extent), and the Chinese.  FDR's statement about being the arsenal of democracy was entirely correct.  That it continued after the war was over, for a good three decades or so, was as a result of well-management of the economic boom by the Greats, and by something I'm following up with below your comment about the Republican party line on unity.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here except to concede your point.

Quote
For the liberum veto, if you're referring to the Sejm of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, I will point out a few things.

1 - the liberum veto actually served to strengthen democratic elements within the Sejm, by placing a check on royal power, and diluting the power of an absolute monarch.
2 - the point where the veto was used to the detriment of the Commonwealth only came about when foreign powers used bribes to the Sejm to force its work to an absolute standstill.  It required someone actively sabotaging the system to make the system fail.  Now, that being said, it's not hard to see that there are people who benefit from the current status quo, and would do absolutely anything to protect it.

It doesn't sound like that's what you're making reference to, however, so can you be a little more explicit?

No, it's exactly what I was referring to. We have a political party increasingly ignoring the efforts of a foreign power trying to tear this country apart. How much more bald-faced does it need to get? It didn't just happen overnight one day, it took time, and boiled to a point where the nation that single-handedly turned the tide against the world's greatest power could eventually no longer defend herself.

Quote
I'd like to see these Republican party reformers; my opinion?  They don't exist.  It's better to let it all burn to the ground (and by that I mean the Republican Party) so it can be reconstituted anew with better ideas and better-informed decision making than the naked power grab that they're demonstrating as this administration goes forward.

Point being, when the reformers appear, I will support the everloving shit out of them.  Perhaps I simply haven't heard of them, though.  Point me in their general direction?

There's rumors out of the Mormon wing (Mitt Romney, Evan McMullin). Inside the Republican party those are the only ones that come to mind. For websites, Redstate is the largest I'm aware of and is currently the only conservative rag I check up on regularly.

It won't be meaningful though, as long as people equivocate like you have been. "But democrats have done bad things too!" Yeah, sure. Right now there isn't a contest - if you are informed and patriotic, you aren't voting R.

Quote
That's a reason to, as you've stated, reform the party, its ideas, its policies and decision making.  The idea that Hannity and O'Reilly spew (or spewed, in the latter's case) of 'personal responsibility' is a crock.  The political theorist Yascha Mounk wrote in The Age of Responsibility that pre-1980s, "responsibility" was understood as something every American owed to the people around them.  A sort of national effort to help the most downtrodden and vulnerable.  And this wasn't limited to the individual Joe on the street; Nixon proposed a national welfare program and a version of UBI.  That dirty, dirty Communist, Richard M Nixon.

Nixon's hand was literally forced in those situations. We nearly had Universal Healthcare but for him.

Quote
1.  That happened in Canada.
2.  That was not a school shooting.  I asked for a school shooting, because that's what you said.

Here's one. Top of Google..

Quote(Yes, I realize I am nitpicking here.)

3. Yes, the guy liked Trump on Facebook.  (The article also states that the Facebook page 'reportedly' is his.  Does not mean it is.)  He probably also liked video games.  But we aren't going around asking people to denounce video games.
4. The article states that the motive was officially 'unknown' at the time of publishing.  We can assume all we like from the facts at hand...unless there was a later article which revealed motive?
5. This shooting happened in Quebec, which the article notes has simmering tensions over attitudes about Islam, compared to the rest of the country.  (Maple Leafers, question to you - is it fair to call Quebec the Deep South of Canada?  I didn't want to use the analogy, but I got thinking about it.)

Really, we went over this specific shooting before which is why I brought it up. Trump supporters are behind a wildly disproportionate amount of violence, and the right-wing's share of violence is stickied at the top of this forum.

ReijiTabibito

Quote from: Vekseid on February 12, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
So you repeat a right-wing lie, and ignore the Nixonian war on drugs.

Right.  Because a total social media-phobe like me has time to waste on Facebook.  Because it's definitely a lie to say that while black fatherlessness and single parenting in the black community has risen since the 1960s, it's not really as much as we thought, so the problem isn't really worth our attention.  That's like saying "Oh, I have only one flat tire.  At least I don't have three, that would be a real problem!"

The cause of it is irrelevant.  It could be caused by the Great Society or Flying Spaghetti Monsters.  What remains is the fact that Politifact states:

Quote from: Politifact
In 2012, the percentage of black births that were made to unmarried black mothers was 72 percent.

Which is the problem, the thing that needs to be addressed, and I don't see anyone trying to do that.

And how could I have forgotten the war on drugs.  The war on drugs that started under Nixon, intensified under Reagan and Bush, and then...

...oh, that's right.  Clinton signed probably what was one of the worst sets of law enforcement legislation during his term in office.  Like that 1995 law that made it a literal hundred times worse to be caught dealing crack cocaine than regular cocaine because a lot of people wanted tougher punishments for a drug that was more easily distributed amongst those living in the inner city.  And established that most reviled of criminal justice policies, the mandatory minimum.  Though, hey, at least the law made provision for first time offenders, right?  It's not like it fueled some of the most racially unbalanced law enforcement this country has ever seen.

But hey, at least it led to the lowest crime rate in 25 years, right?


Quote from: Vekseid on February 12, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
Ah yes, the 'pin it all on Clinton' strategy. There is also the investigation that also was shut down in 2004, though I can't find a link to it.

There were still checks and balances to stop what happened, and it was in 2004 that those finally got voided.

Alright.  I see where my comment could be seen as laying the blame solely at the feet of one William Jefferson Clinton.

Allow me to change that.

I blame the politicians, the Congressmen, who allowed these shenanigans to go on after Clinton left office, whether out of willful ignorance or a hope that staying quiet would mean that they would not get primaried from within by a candidate who was willing to.  And that goes double for whoever readily participated in these dismantlings.

I blame the bankers and Wall Street executives who, for the last 30 years, have placed ever and ever more priority on the quarterly P&E statement and how that affects their stock prices (the same stocks they've been compensated for in) rather than on the long-term health of the economy and the workforce.

Was Glass-Steagall just a single piece of the puzzle?  Yes.  Undoubtedly.  Could the Republicans have gotten rid of it later, under W, as they did with the other protections you've mentioned, and maybe only now we would be facing a recession due to unlimited human greed but only limited human intelligence?  Yes.  Undoubtedly.

But that does not do one thing to change the fact that Clinton could have said no, in this singular instance, to this proposal, and he did not.  Maybe he says no and Congress overrides him anyways because of the Ol' Gringrich Shuffle, and the history plays out the exact same way as it's written now.  At least then, he could say "I tried."

Quote from: Vekseid on February 12, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
Nonetheless, everything you mentioned together - even assuming the truth of it - still doesn't make up for the lowered mathematical education and risks to critical thinking that Betsy DeVos' nomination represents. These are the weapons and defenses of our future, and the currency by which the world's fate will be decided.

Our educational system has been deteriorating for a lot longer than Betsy DeVos has been Secretary of Education.  She is merely the latest incarnation of what is the decline of the American public educational system.  Is she worse than the ones before it?  Sure.  That I'll grant.  But it's not like No Child Left Behind or Race to the Top have done anything to improve our standing in the world, either.

Diane Ravitch wrote an article somewhere about international education testing - mainly about how much bunk it was.  I'll have to dig it up (or see if it can), but the gist of the article was that the US was rated dead last in the first international education rankings taken back in the 1960s, a time when we were one of the world's two superpowers.

Is it good to want to have a more educated populace?  Yeah, of course it is.  But, as has been pointed out elsewhere, numbers do not always tell the whole story, and sometimes they can be manipulated to telling the wrong thing.

Aiming for #1 on all those educational comparison rankings is not a reasonable, attainable goal.  We'll herniate ourselves trying to get it.  Hell, I think aiming for the top...how many countries do we track at this point?

Point is, we need to realign educational initiatives based on goals that can actually be attained.  Like total literacy.  And we need to stop throwing money at the problem, because that's the thing we've done for nearly the last 20 years and it doesn't look like it's doing anything.

Quote from: Vekseid on February 12, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
No, it's exactly what I was referring to. We have a political party increasingly ignoring the efforts of a foreign power trying to tear this country apart. How much more bald-faced does it need to get? It didn't just happen overnight one day, it took time, and boiled to a point where the nation that single-handedly turned the tide against the world's greatest power could eventually no longer defend herself.

No.  It didn't just happen overnight.  It took time, you and I agree.  It probably took a few other things, too; things that convinced Putin we weren't going to be the big presence on the stage anymore, that we could be taken advantage of.

Quote from: Vekseid on February 12, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
There's rumors out of the Mormon wing (Mitt Romney, Evan McMullin). Inside the Republican party those are the only ones that come to mind. For websites, Redstate is the largest I'm aware of and is currently the only conservative rag I check up on regularly.

Thank you for pointing me in that direction.  And I really, really do hope Romney gets a second shot through the Senate.  He's a man with flaws, like any other, but most of the older Trump-voting crowd I talk to?  Him getting excoriated in 2012 was the straw that broke the camel's back; the sign that they could have run the lovechild of Abraham Lincoln and FDR, but as long as he had that big old (R) next to his name, he was going to get hosed; the thing that pushed them to vote for Orange Julius.

Quote from: Vekseid on February 12, 2018, 06:43:28 PM
It won't be meaningful though, as long as people equivocate like you have been. "But democrats have done bad things too!" Yeah, sure. Right now there isn't a contest - if you are informed and patriotic, you aren't voting R.

Right, because saying that definitely will get those people voting R to listen and not to cling tighter to Orange Julius and his 'fake news,' 'MAGA,' and whatever stupid thing he said on Twitter last.  As for me?  I trend more towards the Stewart school of thought:

"Republicans love America.  They just hate half the people living in it."

The fact that Republicans are eyeball-deep in muck doesn't mean the Democrats are squeaky clean.  Yes, compared to their opposition, the fact that there is a conflict going on internally within their party shows signs that they are reconsidering priorities and issues and maybe just maybe are going to ditch the political machine that's manufactured our current climate.  But that in no way absolves them of what's been done before.




(Reiji, the things you get into because you express ONE opinion...)

Mithlomwen

In Trump news....

He tweeted this on the 17th: 

QuoteVery sad that the FBI missed all of the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign - there is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud!

Yes.  He actually said that. 
Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

Deamonbane

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 19, 2018, 09:21:40 AM
In Trump news....

He tweeted this on the 17th: 

Yes.  He actually said that.
Wish I could say I was surprised.
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

ReijiTabibito

It's not totally unwarranted - there is evidence to suggest that the FBI was tipped off before the shooting, and that they ignored it.  Now, I'm more likely to go in the Dredd camp of "We can't follow up on everything, there simply aren't the resources" than go to the conspiracy theory of "the FBI is all Trump-Russia, all the time" way.

It's Trump doing what Trump does second-best: taking something legit and using it as a kosh against his adversaries.  Because it is technically correct, but twisted to suit a purpose.  Like how he used Fake News.

Mithlomwen

Quote from: ReijiTabibito on February 19, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Because it is technically correct, but twisted to suit a purpose.

It's not 'technically' correct. 

Yes the FBI may have dropped the ball. 

But it's not because the FBI is "spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign". 

Baby, it's all I know,
that your half of the flesh and blood that makes me whole...

TheGlyphstone

Correlation, causation, yadda yadda.

Regina Minx

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 19, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
It's not 'technically' correct. 

Yes the FBI may have dropped the ball. 

But it's not because the FBI is "spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign".

The counterintelligence division of the FBI does not handle investigations of domestic gun purchases or 'concern' alerts.

This is information that would be attainable to someone who looked at an org chart of the organization he's the head of.

RedEve

To be honest, the idea that the F.B.I. wouldn't have time to devote on domestic spree shooters because of the Russia investigation suggests a very limited idea of the organization.
Is Trump's mental image half a dozen overworked agents who handle everything between them?
"I don't have a dirty mind, I have a sexy imagination."
My ons and offs- My F-list

Deamonbane

Quote from: RedEve on February 19, 2018, 10:18:38 AM
To be honest, the idea that the F.B.I. wouldn't have time to devote on domestic spree shooters because of the Russia investigation suggests a very limited idea of the organization.
Is Trump's mental image half a dozen overworked agents who handle everything between them?
Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but again, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Although the more likely is that he's well aware of this, but he's also well aware that a good number of the constituents that voted for him aren't.
Angry Sex: Because it's Impolite to say," You pissed me off so much I wanna fuck your brains out..."

ReijiTabibito

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 19, 2018, 10:03:25 AM
It's not 'technically' correct. 

Yes the FBI may have dropped the ball. 

But it's not because the FBI is "spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign".

Quote from: Regina Minx on February 19, 2018, 10:13:22 AM
The counterintelligence division of the FBI does not handle investigations of domestic gun purchases or 'concern' alerts.

This is information that would be attainable to someone who looked at an org chart of the organization he's the head of.


That's my point.  Yes, the FBI got a tip about the Florida shooter and did not follow it up, that's fact.  Everything else after that is Trump trying to spin it for his own political purposes, or to (as Deamon has put it) encourage a certain notion about how the agency works in the heads of his supporters.  Though, TBH, we've already established that Trump's supporters at this point are more of a protest movement than an actual political anything.  You could have 20 year veterans of the force who know EXACTLY how the Feds operate not contradicting him.

Regina Minx

Quote from: ReijiTabibito on February 19, 2018, 01:31:59 PM
That's my point.  Yes, the FBI got a tip about the Florida shooter and did not follow it up, that's fact.

Hypothetically. They did follow up on the tip. What would the FBI actually do? Everything I understand about the circumstances of Cruz's actions tells me that no laws were broken before the day of the shooting. We don't have a system in place to take guns from people who are acting sketchy, and saying "if he had gotten a visit from the FBI this would never have happened!" just boils down to speculation in, speculation out.

Fury Aphrodisia

Fire and Flora - My Ons and Offs  - Updated May 17th '17 ---- Aphrodisia Acedia - (A&A's) - Updated September 9th '17 ---- Sinful Inspirations - Story Ideas - Updated May 17th '17

~I am not the voice of reason: I am the voice of truth. I do not fall gently on hopeful ears. I am strident and abrasive. I do not bend to the convenience of comfort. I am unyeilding. I do not change with wind and whim, but am always standing, unchanging, steady, constant and persevering. You rebuke me when you need me most, yet still I fight. The enemies of truth are everywhere. But I am not defeated.~

Lustful Bride

Quote from: Regina Minx on February 19, 2018, 01:38:46 PM
Hypothetically. They did follow up on the tip. What would the FBI actually do? Everything I understand about the circumstances of Cruz's actions tells me that no laws were broken before the day of the shooting. We don't have a system in place to take guns from people who are acting sketchy, and saying "if he had gotten a visit from the FBI this would never have happened!" just boils down to speculation in, speculation out.

Exactly. Law Enforcement is a reactionary force unless they have probable cause. They cant arrest someone and lock them up because it looks like they might do something. The only exception being it looks like they are about to do something bad.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Mithlomwen on February 19, 2018, 09:21:40 AM
In Trump news....

He tweeted this on the 17th: 

Yes.  He actually said that.

Yep, noticed too - and that spin on it is beyond cheap. :)

The simple fact is that those at the FBI following up on threats of school violence etc (or jihadist terror) are not at all the same people who are looking into the Russia affair. I'm reasonably sure Trump knows that.  >:(

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Various

Only Donald Trump could see a school full of dead children and think, "How can I make this all about me?"
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