Student Loan changes

[Samael]

I've stumbled on a thread on the Something Aweful forums, that discusses the matter.
Now I'm not American, so I don't really know how much this will affect you guys, but I imagine this will be rather helpful and informative to many people here,
The Original Thread: Federal Student Loans and You - Big Changes! Graduate students - read me!

Links regarding the whole thing:
http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/recentChangesSA.jsp
http://www.dailybarometer.com/congress-proposes-removal-of-student-loan-grace-period-1.2613206#.TxzJUYF32So

[Callie Del Noire]

Considering unemployment in my state is between 8 and 12% It means I'll have to go to my family with my hand out or move where I can get a job. That will most likely require me asking for a loan as I will probably have to break my lease as well.

[RubySlippers]

Well options then are more limited you can not go to college sticking to a trade school or technical program (an apprenticeship through a union or the like). You can enter a career prep community college certificate or associates degree program. If your poor working out of High School might be the best option to.

Seems to me its the governments money they can decide how to use it and they decided that support for those of less means for shorter periods of time up through a bachelors degree is it, beyond that you are on your own.

[Iniquitous]

Ruby you do not seem to understand that these days a Bachelor degree is, for all intents and purposes, crap. A Master's degree is what is wanted now - and now you wont be able to get help getting that Master's degree.

And if I needed another reason to not return to school, this here is it.

[Ryven]

I've already realized that after my current degree program is finished (which is my second), there is no way I can return to school because there is no point in gong into further debt for something that will probably not help me.  These changes aren't helping at all with this realization.

[RubySlippers]

Ruby you do not seem to understand that these days a Bachelor degree is, for all intents and purposes, crap. A Master's degree is what is wanted now - and now you wont be able to get help getting that Master's degree.

And if I needed another reason to not return to school, this here is it.

I do know for decades to many students were going to school many who are not in the past standards good candidates, as in not the top 25% of their graduating class and that watered down the degree to nothing. And how many students are cut out for graduate school or a professional school that traditionally was the best of the 25% of students.

It may be true but the fact is college costs money, real money and unless you can do such as assure a good job afterwards why bother your likely better off in a career training program. In my area there are good options other than college a county run post-secondary trade school (PTEC http://www.myptec.org/] [url]http://www.myptec.org/[/url] ) with two campuses, community colleges, career schools and the like. All seem to do a good job without driving students into big debt.

[AndyZ]

The student loan care overhaul stuff is attached to the health care bill, which the Supreme Court is going to rule on soon.  Don't get too worried just yet.

[Callie Del Noire]

I do know for decades to many students were going to school many who are not in the past standards good candidates, as in not the top 25% of their graduating class and that watered down the degree to nothing. And how many students are cut out for graduate school or a professional school that traditionally was the best of the 25% of students.

It may be true but the fact is college costs money, real money and unless you can do such as assure a good job afterwards why bother your likely better off in a career training program. In my area there are good options other than college a county run post-secondary trade school (PTEC [url]http://www.myptec.org/]http://www.myptec.org/] [url]http://www.myptec.org/[/url] ) with two campuses, community colleges, career schools and the like. All seem to do a good job without driving students into big debt.

Funny thing.. I spent 15 years working on aircraft, maintaining computer systems, wiring, radars, sensors, coordinating the work product and my workers, building  and scheduling maintenance and coordinating with other work centers to ensure timed jobs were done to keep military aircraft from falling out of the air.

I've worked in four commands all of whom pulled THOUSANDS of flight hours, sortie completion rates and my shops mission/duty completion rates were in the 95%+ range.

You know what Boeing, Lockheed and such require from me? I have the work experience.. but to do my final job? I have to have a masters in management, preferably with a certification in project management AND an A&P License (Airframe and Powerplants.. which has ZERO to do with my job rates)

[RubySlippers]

Is that though the fault of the person I would say its unfairly high industry demands and its not limited to high tech fields. But the fact is college is not for everyone, in fact like I said unless your gifted enough and want to go to college for a clear goal its not likely a good idea now to go unless you can do so paying your own way.

The government could help in the requirements for a job by mandating contracting companies base hiring on the abilility to do the technical demands of the work and not base the hiring on education over that which is necessary. They do this preference for companies on race, gender and disability compliance and if the government demanded this Boeing and other companies would comply. That might filter to other areas.

Funny its also happening in China to just work in a retail store they demand a college degree from a suitable school or a foreign degree to get these basic jobs, UK its becoming more of an issue I've heard from friends there I would say the government needs to lead on this.

By the way I'm not saying the new rules are right but its the governments money and they can say how they use it and where, if the Republicans do take over I expect far worse to hit.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Funny thing.. I spent 15 years working on aircraft, maintaining computer systems, wiring, radars, sensors, coordinating the work product and my workers, building  and scheduling maintenance and coordinating with other work centers to ensure timed jobs were done to keep military aircraft from falling out of the air.

I've worked in four commands all of whom pulled THOUSANDS of flight hours, sortie completion rates and my shops mission/duty completion rates were in the 95%+ range.

You know what Boeing, Lockheed and such require from me? I have the work experience.. but to do my final job? I have to have a masters in management, preferably with a certification in project management AND an A&P License (Airframe and Powerplants.. which has ZERO to do with my job rates)

Face the truth--you're just unedumicated.

Seriously, I think that policy on their parts is dumb.  The experience you have is far less common and much harder to obtain than any simple degree.  It would make more sense for them to just hire you--even if it's for something a bit further down the trough than what you ultimately want--and then help you get the degree to round out their requirements.

[Callie Del Noire]

Face the truth--you're just unedumicated.

Seriously, I think that policy on their parts is dumb.  The experience you have is far less common and much harder to obtain than any simple degree.  It would make more sense for them to just hire you--even if it's for something a bit further down the trough than what you ultimately want--and then help you get the degree to round out their requirements.

What pissed me off.. they told me that the Navy and DoD mandated those requirements.. So I tell the HR tool I know that is BS. They go 'Why would you say that?"

"Well considering I know the Chief developing the maintence criteria they submitted to your.. AND the Captain AND Commander in charge of the overall program. (the Captain reenlisted me when he was  Lt. Commander.. I worked on two platforms with him)

[kylie]

Ruby you do not seem to understand that these days a Bachelor degree is, for all intents and purposes, crap. A Master's degree is what is wanted now - and now you wont be able to get help getting that Master's degree.

Not sure where this is coming from.  I do think you can pick up good experiences with a Master's...  But job-wise:  It really, really depends what field you are continuing in.  In higher academia, a Master's is generally required to teach anywhere above the community college/regional university levels...  However, in higher academia (liberal arts), it's still rather hard to find real security even with a PhD! 

     Still in a lot of other industries, they are more concerned about what specific skills you have in their field.  A couple years of hands-on can be a better foot in the door than a Master's...  Even if the job is just data entry or telemarketing!  Never mind office manager. 

    Then there are technical trades like natural sciences, computer sci, even basic help desk -- where again, if you look at the ads [at least for entry-level corporate], they are saying bring a BA in Bio, Computer Sci, whatever and some basic lab experience ...  Some will just say, show me you can do these particular job requirements well.  Maybe it's because I'm not in those fields, but I haven't seen much in the ads for them specifying a Master's either.

[Oniya]

Even in the days when a college degree (of any sort) wasn't required, the applicant who brought one to the table - even a B.A. in an unrelated field - had a better shot than someone who just had a high school diploma.

[KaraKres]

Ruby you do not seem to understand that these days a Bachelor degree is, for all intents and purposes, crap. A Master's degree is what is wanted now - and now you wont be able to get help getting that Master's degree.

And if I needed another reason to not return to school, this here is it.

I would have to completely disagree with these sentiments. 

I completed a BA in poli sci a little under eight years ago and I have several executive assistants that I manage all of whom have masters in poli sci.  I seriously despair at their lack of common sense and practical problem solving ability. 

In NZ there was a drive for a 'knowledge economy' in the first decade of the 2000's and all it acheived was thousands more students passing through university/college (since government funding was tied to bums on seats) which dumbed down the degrees, gave birth to the concept that "C's get degrees" and turned what should be elite institutions of higher education into factories mass producing graduates who wouldn't know critical thinking if it got up and slapped them in the face.  Additionally, we had a massive corresponding drop in plumbers, electricians, builders, etc.

Thankfully, government policy has changed, as has the funding model...higher education student rolls are dropping and technical school enrolments are up. 

[AndyZ]

You're ahead of the curve on us, then.  Hopefully we follow your model of switching things back.

[kylie]

     A glut in supply of qualifications is only half the picture.  If a government isn't going to invest in an economy that provides concrete places to use a given skill set, then a glut can result from that too.  That's true whether people start training today to do Philosophy or to be plumbers.  While we may only need so many of each today, policy has a big impact on exactly how many we need a few years from now -- when people are actually coming out with those degrees. 

     Or, I guess you could argue that since the economy changes so fast, perhaps we should change the degree structure, forget specialization, and only take 2 years of anything in school.  Not sure how well foreign languages or aerospace engineering can be acquired to the point needed for good R&D or long-term planning on company time, but who knows. 

    There are a lot of jobs where a BA in something counts, and that can already mean significant loans for a lower middle-income family.  Yet we also have a fairly flexible philosophy that says individuals are supposed to pursue what will be fulfilling (or hopefully profitable in however many years, who knows really!) -- but either way, the burden is on the youth to take the risk and soak it up.  American Dream (note significant overlap with Marxism -- the idea that doing something you wanted should lead to higher productivity) -- as casino. 

    Then there are higher-paying jobs that have long and challenging roads, like medicine or law.  The schools often have high tuition for those as well, and some I've heard offer less in the way of aid packages than liberal arts often does.  They operate on the assumption that people will be able to pay back, but I can't imagine that everyone is succeeding in those programs or all finding equivalent wages if they do.