Interracial Roleplaying - How do you feel?

[la dame en noir]

I'm a cis-gendered black female and both online and real life is tough for me. This goes with dating, being in the BDSM community and finding play partners and even on E where I look for people to roleplay with.

I just recently had someone tell me that he didn't want to play alongside my black character because he doesn't like dark girls. He then procceded to ask if I would be willing to play a white or asian character. It struck me right in the heart. Not only do I play black female characters - because I just don't see enough in Literature, especially Fantasy - I am black. It hurt. I have been denied relationships and friendships simply because I do not fit the eurocentric standard of beauty. But in the same breath, I have been told that I am beautiful for a black girl because my skin isn't dark, my nose is small, and my lips are pout and not big. I have been told that I must be mixed because I am too pretty to be just black.

This is the kind of thing I have experienced time and time again. It has hurt my passion for writing and roleplay as well.

I often play in interracial pairings because - why not? I find everyone beautiful and the last thing I care about is what shade they are.

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

Are you curious?

How do you feel about this interaction and have you seen it before?

I just need some clarity, because I have never felt so inhumane and hurt before.

Note: I have stated in my search thread that I prefer to play black female characters. Appearently this individual ignored the purpose of my thread.

[Rolo]

La Dame,

My very first RP here at E was with a black female.  I was not aware of the fact until I had been a member for a couple years.  Finding out after the fact had no bearing on me and to be honest it never came up in our story.  I have written with other black females on E as well, where the race difference was prominent.  We both enjoyed the story and played up the stereotypes and had a ball.  She has long since disappeared from E and I miss her because we had a lot of fun.  As someone that has dated a wide variety of races of women I find it offensive as a man that someone would subject you to that discrimination.  I, like you, find beauty in everyone.

Keep doing what you do and stay true to yourself.  Don't let the ignorance of others make you feel bad or doubt yourself.  I have seen your pics in the comments page and you are indeed a very beautiful woman.  And that is not as a "Black" woman but as a woman and a human being.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

So... I've played in interracial games (and have a couple going right now), but I will be the first person to admit that it's generally not my thing over all, and unless the difference in the characters is a key aspect of the story I'm looking to tell, I won't generally go out of my way to get in to a game with an interracial pairing.

Usually because... frankly... I tend to find Caucasian men and women more attractive than men and women of other ethnicities. Not that I don't find African-American, Asian, Middle Eastern, etc men attractive EVER, just that my preferences tend to run more toward men with Caucasian skin tones. It's nothing personal against people of other ethnicities as people, it's just that I don't find them as physically/sexually appealing. I couldn't really explain why, because I have no idea. Just like I can't explain why I tend to like men with blonde or black hair more than men with brown, or why I rarely find blonde women in my purview of "do want" compared to women with red or black hair. Occasionally I find exceptions where I'd be all over it and find them highly appealing, but more often than not, my preferences run toward certain aspects and groups. I also tend to find women with more of an hourglass figure more appealing than traditional thin model types.

I know it's something of a cliché, but I would urge you not to take it seriously. Most RPs here on E have some sexual aspect to them, and a lot of players just can't get in to a story if they find the model their partner wants to use (or the description) attractive. We're here to write something we enjoy. You can't force people to find something attractive. But I've seen a pretty decently large crowd of interracial writers and people who appreciate interracial stories here on E, so I'm 99.99% sure that if you look at others on the site, you'll find someone you mesh well with.

[la dame en noir]

Its a very serious issue. In many different cultures, being white or white skinned is considered more desireable and beautiful. Not to mention that with the issue with European colonization, people are pressured to fit these standards. This also means bleaching their skin and having have very harmful surgeries. Black women in particular are told constantly that because of their facial features and skin tones, that they are inherently the most unnattractive group of women in the world. In order to be perceived as beautiful, they are encouraged to change or have to be mixed.

I have seen countless posts of men putting down black women and dehumanizing us. For people to say that white skin is better or more attractive, they often dont actually mean thr shade itself. They also place stereotypes with these skin tones.

Its nasty and hurtful.

I also think telling someone how they should react or feel is alright either. This situation deeply upset me because it is a form of discrimination i have faced for years. Its not something you can just ignore.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

I'm not at all disagreeing with you that white washing is an issue world wide and has a nasty effect on society, I just meant that in this particular instance, based on the information you provided, it sounded more like someone being honest about a physical trait they don't find attractive personally rather than them taking a stab at who you are as a person. Maybe it was the way he worded it that was particularly hurtful (cause saying "I don't like dark girls" is pretty messed up)? I don't know. Would you have had the same reaction if he'd just said "I don't find the models you like attractive" without ever saying a word about their skin tone?

I'm not sure how the conversation went from "someone expressed their personal preference for what they find attractive and it bothers me" to "if you don't find a particular type of person attractive, you're responsible for the white washing of every minority culture in the world", but I'm just gonna bow out now because this suddenly feels a lot more like a set up to jump on people about their preferences more than an attempt at honest, open discussion.

[la dame en noir]

No, because you dont message someone who said that they play a certain type and then tell them that not only is dark skin unnattractive, but that you should play something else because you dont like it. Why the hell would you message someone only to put them down. This isnt about forcing someone to like my skin color, its about how insensitive people are to peoples feelings. Its not okay.

[la dame en noir]

This an open discussion. But just as you expressed making someone do something, i cant allow someone tell me how i should handle my feelings.

[Lustful Bride]

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

Are you curious?

How do you feel about this interaction and have you seen it before?

I just need some clarity, because I have never felt so inhumane and hurt before.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

(I couldn't find anything cuter then the above *gives you an extra hug just because*)

I'm sorry that someone offended you like that. I'm sure this person didn't mean to specifically say it that way to hurt you. They probably just had their foot in their mouth and didn't realized it, possibly even both feet.

To answer your questions, yeah I do interracial roleplays from time to time but I always ask and establish ground rules with the person I am playing with before I evfen begin discussing the actual RP...though I've started doing that for all my roleplays now. :/

I enjoy people of all races and such, I just get more aroused with Asian guys than most other races.  :-[

I feel like these interactions can be fun and passionate and well all it takes is finding the right partner and not letting a bad interaction spoil everything else.

[Dotley]

Oh yes. I do have characters of color and write interracial pairings quite frequently. I love it. But the thing is I don't write it as a fetish or as part of a kink. I don't want my characters to be dehumanized or put on a pedestal because they have dark skin or epicanthic folds. My characters are much more than their race and ethnicity. It will have shaped the character of course, but it doesn't define all that they are.

Unfortunately on E and elsewhere the fetish angle pops up as lot, so I'm just careful of who I'll write my nonwhite characters with and what sort of settings I'll play them out in. I don't have an issue with other people writing racial fetishization in their fictional fun times, because the whole point is it's fiction, but it's not my jam so I don't want to read it or write it.

That said though - I get the hurt. When real life issues creep into our fictional fun times it can hurt a lot.

I mostly write M/M and the casual racism I've had writing partners throw at me in the past was mind boggling. I was once in story negotiations with a potential partner and when I mentioned that I was considering making my character Chinese-American I was told it wasn't compatible with other aspects of the character I was wanting to do. A dominant Asian male wasn't "believable" because "Asian guys just look submissive". I once played a black man in a group RP and I just had to bow out because of the OOC comments and assumptions about his penis size.

Luckily my experiences on E have been much, much better. I simply pass on the people and stories that handle race in a way that doesn't feel right to me and seek out more like minded peeps to write with. There are many wonderful writers on E and there are plenty that write characters of color and write interracial relationships. And like all searches for compatible writing partners it just takes time and often a lil luck to find them  :-)

[la dame en noir]

Yeah everyone has something that really gets them. I really think long haired and gruff white men are very attractive. But i just always find beauty in everything. I always thought people wouldnt say such things to the person they are discriminating against. Like, if i wouldnt pair up my character with on over weight one, i wouldnt say.

Sorry, i dont like obese people. That could probably hurt someone. I always try to think of how someone mighr feel.

Btw...asian men are beautiful:3

[Bloodied Porcelain]

No, because you dont message someone who said that they play a certain type and then tell them that not only is dark skin unnattractive, but that you should play something else because you dont like it. Why the hell would you message someone only to put them down. This isnt about forcing someone to like my skin color, its about how insensitive people are to peoples feelings. Its not okay.

Okay, your first post completely left out any mention that you explicitly stated this to the guy/in an ad/whatever that you only play black characters. For him to do that in spite of knowing that that's your rule is a pretty dick move on his part. To me, based on what you wrote in your first post, it was that you two were discussing a story with no such "I will only play this" rule in place on your part and proposed a black character and then he said he didn't find black women attractive. My apologies, had I known this was a rule/preference he was aware of, my reaction would have been more along the lines of "dude is a jerk". Also, at no point did I tell you how to feel, I just tried to urge you not to take it personally and reassured you that in my time here, I've seen plenty of people in to interracial pairings so I was sure you'd find someone you meshed well with, so letting this guy get you down wasn't worth it.

Of course, now that I realize how crappy the way he handled things was, I only feel more strongly that he's not worth letting hurt you.

[la dame en noir]

Oh yes. I do have characters of color and write interracial pairings quite frequently. I love it. But the thing is I don't write it as a fetish or as part of a kink. I don't want my characters to be dehumanized or put on a pedestal because they have dark skin or epicanthic folds. My characters are much more than their race and ethnicity. It will have shaped the character of course, but it doesn't define all that they are.

Unfortunately on E and elsewhere the fetish angle pops up as lot, so I'm just careful of who I'll write my nonwhite characters with and what sort of settings I'll play them out in. I don't have an issue with other people writing racial fetishization in their fictional fun times, because the whole point is it's fiction, but it's not my jam so I don't want to read it or write it.

That said though - I get the hurt. When real life issues creep into our fictional fun times it can hurt a lot.

I mostly write M/M and the casual racism I've had writing partners throw at me in the past was mind boggling. I was once in story negotiations with a potential partner and when I mentioned that I was considering making my character Chinese-American I was told it wasn't compatible with other aspects of the character I was wanting to do. A dominant Asian male wasn't "believable" because "Asian guys just look submissive". I once played a black man in a group RP and I just had to bow out because of the OOC comments and assumptions about his penis size.

Luckily my experiences on E have been much, much better. I simply pass on the people and stories that handle race in a way that doesn't feel right to me and seek out more like minded peeps to write with. There are many wonderful writers on E and there are plenty that write characters of color and write interracial relationships. And like all searches for compatible writing partners it just takes time and often a lil luck to find them  :-)

That situation is not omly shitty, but racist. I agree with everything you've put forth.

[la dame en noir]

Okay, your first post completely left out any mention that you explicitly stated this guy/in an ad/whatever that you only play black characters. For him to do that in spite of knowing that that's your rule is a pretty dick move on his part. To me, based on what you wrote in your first post, it was that you two were discussing a story with no such "I will only play this" rule in place on your part and proposed a black character and then he said he didn't find black women attractive. My apologies, had I known this was a rule/preference he was aware of, my reaction would have been more along the lines of "dude is a jerk". Also, at no point did I tell you how to feel, I just tried to urge you not to take it personally and reassured you that in my time here, I've seen plenty of people in to interracial pairings so I was sure you'd find someone you meshed well with, so letting this guy get you down wasn't worth it.

Of course, now that I realize how crappy the way he handled things was, I only feel more strongly that he's not worth letting hurt you.

Thank you. Maybe I'll update that, my apologies. I tend to let these things bother me because it happens too often.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

Thank you. Maybe I'll update that, my apologies. I tend to let these things bother me because it happens too often.

Might be a good idea, cause now I feel like an ass for defending an asshole because I thought he was just expressing a preference when in reality he was blatantly ignoring yours. >.<;

And as someone who has read your rp and seen your models, I can definitely say that it's his loss. You're an extremely talented writer, and E would be less if we lost you because some jerks made you feel unwelcome. :)

[la dame en noir]

Might be a good idea, cause now I feel like an ass for defending an asshole because I thought he was just expressing a preference when in reality he was blatantly ignoring yours. >.<;

And as someone who has read your rp and seen your models, I can definitely say that it's his loss. You're an extremely talented writer, and E would be less if we lost you because some jerks made you feel unwelcome. :)

Lol you were just misunderstood. I've had people turn me down because of my preference for playing black females and it never upset me. I just say alright and move one. This was a completely different situation.

[Maiz]

I tend to only play characters who aren't white, because I am not white. So, this makes most my rps interracial. If people have a problem with this then they aren't people I want to roleplay with anyway. Beauty standards/ideals are definitely a product of racism, so people who uphold a certain ideas of beauty in whatever way are playing into that, knowingly or not.

Also, I find equally disturbing the people who want super racist-fetishized roleplays as well.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Sorry for your troubles, la dame en noir. Your experience sounds essentially like the virtual version of white guys who dump black girlfriends because they can't handle the sight of their skin tones in bed together. (I've known women of colour who got dumped for this specific reason.) Frankly, screw that and anyone who behaves that way, on the Net or off it. At that level of severity it's not a "taste" or a "preference" anymore, it's nutcase ideology of a type directly connected with other racial ills in society and you're absolutely within your rights to react to it that way without being lectured or concern-trolled.

In answer to your question, sure I play interracial pairings. I'll admit the "fetish/kink" angle is a guilty pleasure from time to time -- you can't have that without having some racial hangups, I just try to be aware of them and not to let them creep into life outside the specific subdomain of the kinky -- but for the most part I'm far more interested in pairings where their being "interracial" or otherwise isn't a big deal or a hang-up for either party (the only kind of relationship that's tolerable to me IRL).

[Lustful Bride]

Yeah everyone has something that really gets them. I really think long haired and gruff white men are very attractive. But i just always find beauty in everything. I always thought people wouldnt say such things to the person they are discriminating against. Like, if i wouldnt pair up my character with on over weight one, i wouldnt say.

Sorry, i dont like obese people. That could probably hurt someone. I always try to think of how someone mighr feel.

Btw...asian men are beautiful:3

The look on my face when I thought Glenn died in TWD expressed my pain in a way only felt by...probably thousands of other fangirls :P.
*shrug*

Anyway I guess the important thing is that there be open lines of communication. When I am with my own boyfriend he loves when I can talk in Spanish and tease him with it along with other things we like to do. But we both know that because weve had time to learn and love eachtoher.

On a roleplay site like E its much different, you literally just met someone about a second ago and are discussing a sexual (though not all the time() fantasy together and are likely to make mistakes or come off the wrong way.

[Rolo]

Might I suggest that you report this individual?  His actions flies in the face of what E is about.  We are an all inclusive community.  That's not to say that he "Has" to write with you but he can be more tactful in expressing his preferences where they are not hurtful.  Like you said, if he had mentioned that he doesn't care to write against black females, it would not have be hurtful.  But in my experience, whether or not he intended to hurt, it speaks to a racial attitude.

[la dame en noir]

I tend to only play characters who aren't white, because I am not white. So, this makes most my rps interracial. If people have a problem with this then they aren't people I want to roleplay with anyway. Beauty standards/ideals are definitely a product of racism, so people who uphold a certain ideas of beauty in whatever way are playing into that, knowingly or not.

Also, I find equally disturbing the people who want super racist-fetishized roleplays as well.

ive played one very taboo rp, but it was understood that it was only a story. But I understand completely.

[Maiz]

ive played one very taboo rp, but it was understood that it was only a story. But I understand completely.

Yeah. For me personally I am more into exploring fantasy/scifi in ways that has not been done before, or creating settings that I haven't seen. Which means not based off white European/American ideas of fantasy/scifi.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

One of my favorite parts of my interracial rps isn't really about kink... it's about the aesthetic. I genuinely enjoy writing and playing up the visual created by an interracial couple. I love the contrast of skin tones and the like, and second to that is the fact that I love playing two characters who are dramatically different in every way... not just skin tone, but background and culture as well. Where a focus of exploring them in the story as a couple is figuring out how they deal with the glaring differences, miscommunications, interests, etc. But I tend to find relationships in general that have big hang ups like that fun, regardless of the character's skin colors.

[Lustful Bride]

Might I suggest that you report this individual?  His actions flies in the face of what E is about.  We are an all inclusive community.  That's not to say that he "Has" to write with you but he can be more tactful in expressing his preferences where they are not hurtful.  Like you said, if he had mentioned that he doesn't care to write against black females, it would not have be hurtful.  But in my experience, whether or not he intended to hurt, it speaks to a racial attitude.

I think that maybe reporting a person for that is just alittle too far. Don't misunderstand, im not defending or deflecting but I think maybe itd be just as easy to block the person. Unless they were spouting off hate speech I don't feel like that's report worthy.

I mean hell just a week ago I saw someone calling the Bible (the book of my faith) a dusty, sand, covered book of lies. Not the same thing i know but just bare with me on this.

I mean it hurt yes but I know that that is their opinion. But unless they were calling for violence or really pushing it over and over again... then they were free to hold. As long as their opinion Is not doing harm they are free to have it ans do long as they keep it under control and don't go screaming it everywhere.

Im not saying what they did was right but it might not be a good idea to escalate thigns like that.

Edit: There;s also the chance that in the rush to get their rocks off the person didn't read the specifications of La Dame's thread and didn't think before typing.

One of my favorite parts of my interracial rps isn't really about kink... it's about the aesthetic. I genuinely enjoy writing and playing up the visual created by an interracial couple. I love the contrast of skin tones and the like, and second to that is the fact that I love playing two characters who are dramatically different in every way... not just skin tone, but background and culture as well

I am a complete and total sucker for Forbidden Romances and the like. I have a book shelf with nothing but that..even this one dumb series about a hitman whose also a werewolf...falling in love with one of his targets....dumb as hell but I like it....

[Bloodied Porcelain]

I am a complete and total sucker for Forbidden Romances and the like. I have a book shelf with nothing but that..even this one dumb series about a hitman whose also a werewolf...falling in love with one of his targets....dumb as hell but I like it....

Yaaaaaaasssss. Forbidden romances are so much fun. :D But even beyond them just being forbidden, I enjoy the contrasts and clashes between the two characters. Relationships that just go off without a hitch and aren't a big deal tend to bore me after a while lol.

[la dame en noir]

One of my favorite parts of my interracial rps isn't really about kink... it's about the aesthetic. I genuinely enjoy writing and playing up the visual created by an interracial couple. I love the contrast of skin tones and the like, and second to that is the fact that I love playing two characters who are dramatically different in every way... not just skin tone, but background and culture as well. Where a focus of exploring them in the story as a couple is figuring out how they deal with the glaring differences, miscommunications, interests, etc. But I tend to find relationships in general that have big hang ups like that fun, regardless of the character's skin colors.

I agree

[la dame en noir]

Just as a side not, and i might add it to my OP, I don't rp interracial pairings for the sake of kink. As someone who is very active in that community, its a huge turn off to have someone come to me simply because of my skin color.

I just know that the majority of people that play on E are white and therefore, interracial will hate a lot more.

[la dame en noir]

Might I suggest that you report this individual?  His actions flies in the face of what E is about.  We are an all inclusive community.  That's not to say that he "Has" to write with you but he can be more tactful in expressing his preferences where they are not hurtful.  Like you said, if he had mentioned that he doesn't care to write against black females, it would not have be hurtful.  But in my experience, whether or not he intended to hurt, it speaks to a racial attitude.

The problem with reporting is that it was vague. Since a certain ethnicity was not targeted, I can't really report him. The situation just triggered a conversation I wanted to have with other fellow E players.

[Rolo]

Chuckles 

Sorry Lustful but I just saw you tag in your profile and here you are being "Logical".

The intention would not be to have this individual banned or even suspended.  Our staff does an amazing job of keeping E a safe and enjoyable place, but they cannot be everywhere.  It is up to us to make them aware of issues that could be damaging.  If it is an isolated case then they will determine that.  If it is a deeper issue then they can take corrective actions.  Just a thought.  I hate to see good people get hurt over the ignorance of others.

[la dame en noir]

I'm just breakable. I should have a tag that says "Fragile, handle with care"

[Twisted Crow]

Honestly, as someone that also likes interracial RP, I think it's about perception. It could be a kink or a simple reflection of what gets you going in real life. Asian girls to me always seemed exotic. White chicks be everywhere. Not saying that I never found a white girl attractive, but I just find that Japanese, Korean and Chinese women are my kryptonite. The upsetting part for me is that it sounds as if any other combo with my personal feelings of attraction would be "fine" or somehow, more "acceptable" to them. To me (because of a somewhat humorous mixture of stereotypes, actually), it seems like a kink of its own to people. Or maybe some sort "hedonistic fetish" if a white guy happens to have a "thing" for Asian females (in the Japanese, Korean and Chinese categories, anyway). All of a sudden, that common, faux "stance" people (of this sort) have on objectivity... and "subjective personal taste" related to physical attraction? In my experience, it just kind of crumbles away.

I'm sure you all (here on Elliquiy) understand that people have their preferences when it comes to physical attraction. So I am not too worried about being judged as harshly. In spite of my likings, I can literally find attractiveness in all variety of ethnicities, religions and sizes if its the right girl. Hell, my dating history is proof. I am not going to make this all about myself, here but I just wanted to share this so that maybe you might not feel so alone in this, Dame. It's not the exact same problem, but a similar problem. About perception, when it comes to this feeling of being "typecasted" that I could be feeling from you in your words above. It's something that I think I can sympathize with.

I'm not even going to get into the whole Liege thing on here (that's a whole another TL;DR thesis on my personal feelings and stuff ;)), but to keep things simple...

In real life, I am (physically) a Caucasian male. In a way, my heart goes out to you because I sometimes feel like my roleplaying preferences and tastes are looked at negatively -- or sometimes "generically" from time-to-time. I have sometimes thought that people would look at my threads and think "Oh great, just another white dude that has an Asian girl thing" But thankfully, I also know quite a few partners and friends here made up of different races. It is one of the reasons that inspired me to write a personal take on what Love is, in one of my Good and Cuddly threads. It is called "Love is Love". But... on matters of Elliquiy? Skin color isn't a factor to me in terms of roleplaying potential. If I love your writing (and if our imaginations are like fireworks) then it doesn't matter to me what you look like.

On the "I don't like..." subject. Eh... it doesn't strike me as being written with the express intent to be hurtful. But I do feel like it is inconsiderate to word it in such a way. So I am not defending this person really... just more so looking at it from an outside perspective. I don't blame you for being hurt, either way. I would have definitely worded that differently if I were in that situation. While "I don't like" isn't necessarily "I hate", I do think it could have been worded better.

[la dame en noir]

I've actually had a kink discussion that focused on People of Color in the community. It was led by a Korean/Italian mixed girl who had to constantly turn down people for their "Asian women are exotic" or expected her to be a certain way because she was asian. There were two other Asian women in the room who felt the same way, but was quiet about it. They talked later and mentioned that being fetishied simply because of their ethnic background and culture, isn't at all heartwarming. It made them feel less than human and a product to be messed with.

Some people like it

Others would rather not be noticed simply because they are different in that way.

[Lustful Bride]

I've actually had a kink discussion that focused on People of Color in the community. It was led by a Korean/Italian mixed girl who had to constantly turn down people for their "Asian women are exotic" or expected her to be a certain way because she was asian. There were two other Asian women in the room who felt the same way, but was quiet about it. They talked later and mentioned that being fetishied simply because of their ethnic background and culture, isn't at all heartwarming. It made them feel less than human and a product to be messed with.

Some people like it

Others would rather not be noticed simply because they are different in that way.

I remember when I was younger id moved back to the states with my parents and in like..i think middle school?..hmm its been so long. but anyway I identified myself once as "Puerto Rican" because the island was the only place I had any memories of at that age. And my parents were both giving me the 'Shut up' look because they were worried people might think I was mocking them.

I was too young to understand all the little quirks our species has with names and labels.

When most people think of Puerto Rican they automatically think of tanned Hispanic person. Not redhead. :P

Preconceptions are bad about 90% of the time I say.

[Twisted Crow]

I've actually had a kink discussion that focused on People of Color in the community. It was led by a Korean/Italian mixed girl who had to constantly turn down people for their "Asian women are exotic" or expected her to be a certain way because she was asian. There were two other Asian women in the room who felt the same way, but was quiet about it. They talked later and mentioned that being fetishied simply because of their ethnic background and culture, isn't at all heartwarming. It made them feel less than human and a product to be messed with.

Some people like it

Others would rather not be noticed simply because they are different in that way.

;D Ah yes... That's usually something I have to be very clear about with partners that happen to be Asian. Its why I like to get those talks out of the way with potential partners. (I,e., "What kind of things upset you or turn you away. This is usually the first thing I try to avoid") Physically, I just think they are very pretty. When it comes to the stereotypes on cultures and common cliché's on the writing end of it, though? That's not something I normally like to explore when it comes to role play or in real life.

[la dame en noir]

I remember when I was younger id moved back to the states with my parents and in like..i think middle school?..hmm its been so long. but anyway I identified myself once as "Puerto Rican" because the island was the only place I had any memories of at that age. And my parents were both giving me the 'Shut up' look because they were worried people might think I was mocking them.

I was too young to understand all the little quirks our species has with names and labels.

When most people think of Puerto Rican they automatically think of tanned Hispanic person. Not redhead. :P

Preconceptions are bad about 90% of the time I say.

LOL they also seem to forget that Spanish people are white :/
Latino/a people are array of ethnicities and mixes. Again, people are willfully ignorant.

[Twisted Crow]

In practice, I just find that it is easier for me to treat people by how they act... not blindly trusting what my eyes see all the time. Eyes can play tricks with perception. :D

[Aiyanna]

I actually put something sort of related to this in my O/o's. I don't deliberately go seeking interracial RP's because seeing one partner be one ethnicity and the other be a different ethnicity isn't the kink for me. I like playing women (and more recently men) of all ethnicities, and I'll admit, I do sometimes go out of my way to play Asian, Hispanic, Islander, or African American characters because I feel there is a distinct lack of variety at times when it comes to character appearance. To put it bluntly, more often than not, white people are at the bottom of my list of preferred ethnicities, because there are just too many of them. There are a couple of exceptions to that rule but for the most part, I look at it this way: I play a <insert noun or adjective here> in real life. Why on earth would I want to do that for a game?

None of this is to say I don't have my preferences. The prettiest older women I've ever seen have been Asian. Typically, I think black men have really nice smiles. I love the things white guys tend to do with their hair. Don't get me started on redheads of almost any shade or ethnicity. Love it all, natural or dyed(done well). But I'm not going to fetishize any one ethnicity or go questing specifically for interracial RP because I think that's a good way to make someone feel undervalued, or valued for the wrong reasons.

[la dame en noir]

Thank you for that, Aiyanna! :3

[Twisted Crow]

This topic actually reminds me of a fun conversation I had with a Cosplayer that happened to be Black. Wonderful lady, smart, classy and a total nerd like me. One of her peeves in Cosplay was "black-facing", where non-black cosplayers would basically do what it sounds like if they were going to cosplay as a character that happens to be Black (Mace Windu, Jacob from Mass Effect 2, etc). Her stance on it was that the race of the character shouldn't be what defines the character. And they way she said it was perfect. It pretty much embodies how I feel about roleplaying with characters of different races. Granted it is not quite the same, but the same concept and ideology was something I took to heart and embraced.

There was also a semi-related humorous experience where this white guy dressed up (cosplayed) as Blade for Halloween, but everyone mistook him for Neo (The Matrix) or Riddick (Pitch Black).

I feel like even though I like what I like... I don't normally look at them as a prerequisite (unless it is the point of the story or somewhat important to it). Ultimately, race shouldn't normally be what defines a character. Darth Vader was voiced by James Earl Jones, and that's what I remember. Not because James was Black. But because his voice was perfect for that sort of character. Sarevok (current avatar); voiced by Keith Michael Richardson (Principal Lewis on American Dad) is actually another funny coincidence. When I hear Keith's voice on American Dad, I think of Sarevok. I think of a character that always struck a chord in my heart. And to me, that's what writing these stories are mostly about when it comes to this topic. It's the voice (the writer) that matters most, and the characters themselves. Race is just one of many qualities about them.

[Lustful Bride]

I think we can just grind all this down to a simple thing.

"All Men and Women of all races, ethnicities, orientations and etc etc etc. Are beautiful in their own way."

[Twisted Crow]

That I can also agree with ;D

[la dame en noir]

Oh god don't get me started on black-facing in cosplay

I am a cosplayer and I'm against it.

[Vekseid]

Yeesh, I usually have to go out of my way to find someone willing to play a black girl. I am sorry this happened la dame.

I generally don't think of it as interracial. I genuinely have zero preference regarding my partner's skin color. I generally play white males in my sexual scenes, though I've had a few exceptions.

I do often find that women take my renders, choice of pictures, etc. far more personally than I intend. I like the variety of human experience, it's just unfortunate that most models are white. I do try to dig for black models where I can and make renders of black girls when feasible though.

[Twisted Crow]

...I do often find that women take my renders, choice of pictures, etc. far more personally than I intend...

This makes me consider something. Would it be weird to say I have a fear of that kind of outcome? I generally feel more afraid of upsetting people, in general.

[la dame en noir]

Yeesh, I usually have to go out of my way to find someone willing to play a black girl. I am sorry this happened la dame.

I generally don't think of it as interracial. I genuinely have zero preference regarding my partner's skin color. I generally play white males in my sexual scenes, though I've had a few exceptions.

I do often find that women take my renders, choice of pictures, etc. far more personally than I intend. I like the variety of human experience, it's just unfortunate that most models are white. I do try to dig for black models where I can and make renders of black girls when feasible though.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it sound that way. I'm only speaking of interracial coupling in rps/literature - not as a fetish. I don't look for skin color when roleplaying, dating, etc.

[Caehlim]

I've certainly had couples in stories I've written on Elliquiy that were interracial.

Despite being white anglo-celtic, I like to write stories with diverse characters, so several of the characters I play in stories on Elliquiy are people of colour. I do worry sometimes whether I am doing the experience justice and certainly hope that it's not something offensive to people.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Speaking for myself, an honest attempt at portraying realistic diversity rarely goes amiss with me; even a flawed attempt speaks well of a writer's character and awareness.

[Skynet]

White IRL, for what it's worth.

I've done a few games with inter-racial pairings and character couples on E, some of which revolved around a type of fantasy which may come off as...stereotypical in a way (harems).  I do try and be mindful in that there are poor ways to handle it, like how certain instances of fetishization might come off as creepy like what la dame en noir mentioned about instances in the kink community earlier.

On a related note, I tend to like to use anime/manga images for RPs, and by personal experience certain images are harder to find than others: most anime characters are light-skinned, and while there are dark-skinned ones as well certain styles of dress and hair texture can be quite hard to find.  And trying to find a dark-skinned elf who isn't a drow is quite challenging.  But I try anyway, and ended up with quite a few worthy finds.

But on a similar level, I do like to pepper my stories and worlds with people of many colors.  They are all beautiful in their own way, and given that my preferred RPG worlds are sci-fi and fantasy, with some more modern ones taking a more diverse turn, I don't have to feel limited by concerns of "realism" of who would be where at what time period.  Yes, I know that the ancient world is more diverse than a lot of people give it credit for, but with a completely fictional fantasy realm people can't exactly pull the "historical accuracy" card so easily; they can try, but it won't make them look good. :P

[Cyrano Johnson]

. . . I don't have to feel limited by concerns of "realism" of who would be where at what time period.  Yes, I know that the ancient world is more diverse than a lot of people give it credit for, but with a completely fictional fantasy realm people can't exactly pull the "historical accuracy" card so easily; they can try, but it won't make them look good. :P

Cuts both ways. In fantasy stories where diversity is purely a matter of authorial "choice" rather than realism, the choices can be unwontedly revealing. Just as fantasy worlds featuring brutal sexism can be revealing (ironically, the reflexive defense of these when someone asks "why are all the women either passive or sex toys?" is typically "'um, realism!'" ;)).

It's a common phenomenon in SF, which is replete with futures conveniently cleansed of black people or where the most important decisions in the universe revolve exclusively around the decisions of Very Specifically White people. (Often red-haired white people for some curious reason, cf. the Lensman books.)

Writers who make choices in a different direction -- with, say, a cosmic problem revolving around the decisions of a character who is not white -- are unfortunately rare enough that they become often specific phenomena with nonwhite readers or fans. Cf. the Earthsea books and Ged, for example, or Avatar: The Last Airbender taking its inspiration from specifically Asian cultures, which is why the whitewashed casting of later adaptations of these properties created so much blowback.

[Aiyanna]

On a related note, I tend to like to use anime/manga images for RPs, and by personal experience certain images are harder to find than others: most anime characters are light-skinned, and while there are dark-skinned ones as well certain styles of dress and hair texture can be quite hard to find.  And trying to find a dark-skinned elf who isn't a drow is quite challenging.  But I try anyway, and ended up with quite a few worthy finds.

This, on so many levels. My first experience with online, forum based RP came from GaiaOnline. Anime-style avatars are the thing there, and with darker anime characters being in short supply, I think that is what initially spawned my interest in playing just about anything else, to try to inject some diversity in to the character pool.

[ThePrince]

I’ve never considered one race’s skin to be more beautiful than the others. This idea of some sort skin beauty pecking order has eluded me even in my more closed minded days. I’ve never had a issue with my roleplay partners playing different races than my own. So the idea that someone would not play with a character specifically because of their skin color is very alien to me.

As far as the real life BDSM communities, I belong to the Master/slave community and I am proud that we are a devise community. I’am proud to know Mama Vi, Master Taino, Sir Guy, Lady D and the men of ONXY and have them in my community.

If I might take the moment to brag, getting the chance to actually meet and talk to Mama Vi has been one of the highlights of my life. She is one of the most well known and respected women in Leather and if you are lucky enough to meet her you will understand why. The work that she and her wife are doing with the Carter Johnson Library is, I think, one of the most important projects currently being done in the BDSM community and is something that will benefit all of us.

One a side but important note, here is a link to SirGuy’s speech at the 2015 Master/slave Conference about the history of African Americans in the M/s community.
https://fetlife.com/users/33478/posts/3230080

[TheGlyphstone]

I’ve never considered one race’s skin to be more beautiful than the others. This idea of some sort skin beauty pecking order has eluded me even in my more closed minded days. I’ve never had a issue with my roleplay partners playing different races than my own. So the idea that someone would not play with a character specifically because of their skin color is very alien to me.

As far as the real life BDSM communities, I belong to the Master/slave community and I am proud that we are a devise community. I’am proud to know Mama Vi, Master Taino, Sir Guy, Lady D and the men of ONXY and have them in my community.

If I might take the moment to brag, getting the chance to actually meet and talk to Mama Vi has been one of the highlights of my life. She is one of the most well known and respected women in Leather and if you are lucky enough to meet her you will understand why. The work that she and her wife are doing with the Carter Johnson Library is, I think, one of the most important projects currently being done in the BDSM community and is something that will benefit all of us.

One a side but important note, here is a link to SirGuy’s speech at the 2015 Master/slave Conference about the history of African Americans in the M/s community.
https://fetlife.com/users/33478/posts/3230080

Can you quote/excerpt it for those of us who don't have a FetLife account?

[ThePrince]

Sure, keep in mind it is a lot.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

This Labor Day weekend, Master Taino, MTTA and the Master slave Conference 2015 extended to me the privilege of speaking briefly about the history of African Americans in M/s and on the 20th anniversary of ONYX, a Leather brotherhood geared toward Men of Color. The following is that speech.

Building Community is the theme of this year’s Master/slave Conference and it is an important thing. The analogy of building is an apt one. When we think of building we think of construction and, particularly in the Master/slave community, we think of structure. The best structures have a firm foundation. When the foundation is weak, then it doesn’t make a difference how much time, money or effort is put into the building. It makes no difference how unique or diverse the materials put into the edifice, if the foundation is not sound, it will not stand.

Along these lines, if we are to build community, we have to start with a strong foundation. In the case of the M/s and Leather communities, our history is where we get our foundation. Without that history we would be unable to stand. And without knowledge of that history, we as a community and as houses and families and relationships will be standing on shaky ground.

“If you don't know history, then you don't know anything. You are a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree. ” ― Michael Crichton

One of the key aspects of Leather tradition is the preservation of history. Whether it be the history of organizations, of clubs, families or our own individual histories, keeping account of the people who make up the many groups that are known collectively as “community” is vital to our future survival. Indeed, not only can we learn from past mistakes, we also learn from past successes and, if we are smart, we can build upon them. Expounding upon what Mr. Crichton said, some of us have branch knowledge, but we don’t have root knowledge.

This is one reason why the Carter Johnson Leather Library and Collection and the Leather Archives and Museum have proved to be so vital. They are a living, breathing history of all that we value as people of Leather, as members of the BDSM community and as a part of the Master slave community. We can see art, literature and memorabilia, true, but we may also see the struggles of individuals as well as groups of us, the obstacles that were overcome and the progress that was made. In addition, it allows us to see what progress we must still make.

In creating a foundation, one must use care in its construction. We cannot ignore any elements of its composition or it will not be strong enough to support anything built upon it. The same is true when we look at our community history. If we ignore one element of it, then we are bound to weaken all of it and what comes after will not succeed. For a very long time, the history of People of Color in the M/s and Leather communities have been ignored, or simply not known. However, if this edifice we call community is to stand, and more importantly, if we are going to be able to build it into something stronger, we have to pay attention to all of the elements upon which it stands. George Orwell stated this in his book 1984, when he said, “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”

People of Color have long been an integral part of our Leather and M/s history. The people for whom the Carter Johnson Leather Library are named are examples of this. In addition to being the catalyst for the library which bears their names, Jill Carter became the first African-American International Ms. Leather in 1996 and used the platform afforded to her by the title to collect memorabilia and money that ultimately led to the opening of the Leather Archives & Museum – which you will hear more about soon. Ms. Carter was the recipient of the Pantheon of Leather Woman of the Year Award 1998 and 2001, The National Leather Association International Order of Merit and Lifetime Achievement Awards, and many other awards for her devotion and care in building long-lasting parts of the foundation upon which we all sit today. Her partner of over 40 years, Viola Johnson, affectionately known as “Mama Vi”, is also iconic in the community as an activist, author, archivist, mentor and educator and has a lengthy resume of contributions to our communities that are almost too numerous to list including helping countless women figure out that only when you consider breathing optional can you properly wear a corset. Her effort in building our foundation has been recognized as well with the NLA and Pantheon of Leather Lifetime Achievement Awards, a Lifetime Achievement Award from Black BEAT, and even an award here at MsC – the slave heart award. Both of these women continue to give of themselves to ensure that those who are here today building additions to our community understand the materials they are building with and we would do well to honor that work.

While many of us know of Jill Carter and Mama Vi, the foundation of our community is filled with many People of Color upon whom this structure has rested. The late Jack Jackson was the only president ever of, The Eulenspiegel Society, or TES, the oldest BDSM support and education group in the country, for almost ten years until he passed away in 1983. He was a Leatherman and a Master and was among the first to utilize the media to demystify and destigmatize BDSM back in the late 1970s and early 1980s. His interviews and photographs appeared in media outlets like Hustler magazine and the Columbia University newsletter. He was a trailblazer in this regard, speaking freely about power exchange relationships at a time when it was very taboo. He was even called upon by NYPD detectives in sex crime cases involving rope bondage to testify as an expert witness as to whether the perpetrator was an amateur or someone intricately familiar with rope. Morgan HMQ (Her Majesty the Queen) is a member of the Imperial Court and was a board member of The Eulenspiegel Society for 27 years, earning emeritus status. In the 80s, HMQ was central to the founding of the Dominant Women’s/submissive men’s group that still meets at TES and she was instrumental in building the foundation for the TES parties which many of us still enjoy monthly. There is also Graylin Thornton, Mr. Drummer 1993, and the only African-American to ever hold the original title. Thornton has spent decades speaking out about People of Color in the community and encouraging their involvement. He also produced the first Ebony in Leather Contest in 1991 and serves as an Emeritus National Board Member for the Leather Leadership Conference.

Many of us are most aware of our M/s traditions and structures dating back to the 1970s and though we often don’t think about it, People of Color have always been a part of that structure. Way back in the late 1960s there was a society called OBEAH, which was a BDSM related Black supremacy group. They did not allow Black subs or dominant whites. In the late 1970s they published a magazine that included images of Black domination and white submission called OBEAH: Society of Black Masters and Mistresses preaching the “natural superiority” of Black men and women. Images of Blacks in power exchange relationships appeared at that time, with the fabulous Mistress Mir among a select few. Also, The Ohio Players were well known for their imagery of women and men in chains and in domination and submission scenarios on their album covers. These sensuous photographs and their sexually charged lyrics made it alright for Black people to enjoy that side of their persona. Marvin Gaye’s Masochistic Beauty from 1985, sings about an M/s relationship, wherein he utters the tender lyrics, ““Shut up...You nasty little slave, kiss my feet. Put your face right here and start to eat.” These are a few bricks in that foundation that helped to build this community.

Our Leather title holders have in many cases been seen as leaders in our community based upon their stands on issues and the causes they represent. In 1984, International Mr. Leather, one of the preeminent Leather contests crowned its first Black titleholder, Ron Moore. Unfortunately, it would be exactly 30 years before it was to happen again, when Ramien Pierre became International Mr. Leather in 2014. Because of the lack of representation of Men of Color in the Leather contests, in 1991, the aforementioned Graylin Thornton and Gregory Adams started the Ebony in Leather contest which later became “Mr. Ebony Leather” in Chicago, produced by Cain Berlinger. It lasted until 2003. In 2004, Mufasa Ali organized the Leatherman of Color contest which was won by Jack Tatum. Back in 1999, in the New York/New Jersey/Connecticut tristate area, a group was formed for Leather men of color and those who wished to learn more about the Leather lifestyle and BDSM. It was called The New York Panther club. The website Dark Connections which contains information on Black groups, munches and Black BDSM history started in 2003, as did the group Black BEAT (which stands for Black Expression Alternate Tastes) which included an educational component. International Master and slave 2010 titleholders Master Obsidian and slave namaste have proven a force as authors and educators, mentors and leaders, not just in the M/s community but in the greater community as well. These are all just a few more of the many building blocks securing diversity in the structure of the foundation that was to build a representative community.

Black-Boricua Taíno, queer performance artist, activist, filmmaker, lecturer and sex educator Ignacio Rivera once said that the term “inclusion” implies that you weren’t thought of in the beginning, thus the need to be included. It says that we weren’t a part of the original concept. While People of Color have always been a part of this broad foundation, it is easy to see how some could think otherwise.

One organization that has sought to correct this misconception is ONYX. In 1995, the year of the Million Man March, the O.J. Simpson trial and a record breaking heatwave in Chicago, five bold Leathermen who were men of color got together for a noble purpose. Maybe they were the reason for the heatwave in Chicago that year! Mufasa Ali, Stephen Bailous, David, Nate and Wes got together to form a group to establish a safe space for men of color to explore, be educated and thrive as kinky people. The group was not started to be separate from the Leather community but to help men of color ease comfortably into the Leather community. These forward thinking men were concerned that many men of color in the Chicago area were not connected to nor familiar with other men of color who were into BDSM or the Leather lifestyle and they sought to remedy that. Since their inception in Chicago twenty years ago they have been at the forefront in the Leather community, providing guidance and leadership, not just to their core group of Leather men of color and their admirers, but to the entire community. From their small beginnings in the Windy City with the original Midwest chapter, we have seen them expand to the New York/Northeast region, the Mid-Atlantic region, the Southeast region, with new chapters building in the Northwest and Southwest. Everywhere you see the men of ONYX they are conscious of their commitment to People of Color in the Leather community, and to the broader community as well. The Men of Onyx have organized fundraisers for Leather and other alternative charitable organizations. They have volunteered as a group to feed the homeless. You will see them prominently at volunteer posts at the various Leather Pride Nights, Folsom Street East, The Imperial Court’s “Night of a Thousand Gowns”, at contests like IML, MAL and IMsL. In addition to their charity and volunteer work, ONYX is deeply committed to education of the history and traditions of the life we live. With their combination of learning and fellowship at events like the upcoming Blackout, and in their chapters, they help contribute to the building of community. It’s not just at ONYX venues that you will see this at play. ONYX members have recently been on panels and presentations at the Woodhull Sexual Freedom Summit, Black BEAT Conference, the BDSM Writers’ Conference, and the Leather Leadership Conference and of course, right here at the Master/slave Conference. So while many will laud their parties, which are fabulous, by the way, what is more important is that for two decades, ONYX has reached out to take an active role to take those who may have felt marginalized from the Leather and M/s community and to give them camaraderie, education, guidance, a sense of tradition, and a sense of pride in who they are. They help create leaders and that is an important part of building community. This is why we celebrate this beautiful part of our community that has been building community for 20 years and shows no sign of slowing down.

The people and organizations I mentioned are only a very small sampling of the myriad of People of Color who have been building blocks for this community. I could stand here for hours naming names and their accomplishments and I would only scratch the surface of their vast contributions. They illustrate the need for us to expand our view of community. As these members of our family have proven through outreach, education, leadership, mentoring and the preservation of traditions and values, a strong structure of community that transcends race, culture, sexual preference, and gender identity can be built. We have a wonderfully diverse foundation upon which to build. Only by honoring ALL of the foundation builders and ALL of our collective histories can we truly make our house as strong as possible and build a community that lasts.

[la dame en noir]

I read a little from my account on my lunch. Thank you :3

[Wolfling72]

*snippage*

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

Are you curious?

How do you feel about this interaction and have you seen it before?

*snippage*

For the masses I am a DFAB multi-ethnic personage. What that means is I am cinnamon shaded with dark curly hair, full lips and a booty. (We won't talk about the bits that mark me as inherently female *BLECH*) I snipped most of your initial post so that I could respond to your queries:

1. I do NOT look for "interracial" pairings though MOST of my R/P's tend to end up that way (IF I am writing a romantic story or what have you). I prefer to write characters of color not necessarily BLACK but they have to have something about them that marks them as tan/brown/other than WHITE. For the most part? The race or ethnicity of my characters is never really brought up outside of a general description or picture. Why would it be? People are people and I have spent far too many years relishing my own preferences (brown skinned or dark skinned females, light skinned or white men) to really care about what other's prefer. My real world relationships are not fetishes, they are relationships. It works the same way (for me) when I write. I don't care to discuss why skin tones look better (or worse). I care more about why cultural differences exist and how hard it is for two disparate people to click if they come from two different worlds (And that is basically classism NOT ethnic play) The only time I consider something interracial is IF I am writing historical fiction based around the attitudes of the early twentieth century OR around the Civil War and even THOSE stories have to have more than racial differences to be interesting to me. (And THIS is STATED just the same way in my O/O's)

2. Therefore I am NOT curious in the least. I am the product of a mixed family, my preferences stem from that same mixed family and I don't understand the urge to break humanity down to skin tone and preconceived notions. That is just ME, your mileage may vary.

3. Finally, I never worry about the character's RACE or ethnicity when I am reading stories on E. My assumption is that people are writing about what they like...and a goodly portion of that is paler skinned peoples. If the story is well written? Any ethnicity can be easily inserted and STILL have the same feeling. IF it is sexualized or fetishized? Then I won't make it past the initial page and will never care about the people involved. *shrugs* Again, this is just me. Your mileage may vary.

As a side note: I am in my forties. Just about ANY racist thing that could be said, has been said, in my hearing. I've heard every single excuse as to why I don't fit what they meant or what the were trying to say...and at the end of the day, it matters NOT at all. Some people have never learned the idea that their preferences are not everyone's cup of tea and in the world of writing? Especially erotic writing? One has to accept that sometimes~ color, culture, sexual identity will be fetishized.

You then decide whether or not you can stomach it.

I can not. I won't do it to another and I will not allow any story I take part in (outside of the tropes I stated earlier) to devolve into that crap. I don't knock other people's JOY but for me it wouldn't be joyful and would only work to piss me off, so why involve myself?

[la dame en noir]

I hope my words weren't taken offense. I probably should've been more concise about what I was getting at, but I was very frustrated. I do not rp interracial lay couples for the sake of kink. I do this to have a variety because of the demographic on E.

[Oniya]

I don't play outside my race for fear of getting it horribly wrong (fictional races notwithstanding).  'I know that I know not', as some philosopher once said.  However, I would not take it amiss if a partner suggested that their character was of a specific ethnic background, and would try to keep their personal descriptions in mind as I wrote.

[Bloodied Porcelain]

I don't play outside my race for fear of getting it horribly wrong (fictional races notwithstanding).  'I know that I know not', as some philosopher once said.  However, I would not take it amiss if a partner suggested that their character was of a specific ethnic background, and would try to keep their personal descriptions in mind as I wrote.

This is one of my biggest worries as well. It's only very occasionally I will play outside my race, and usually only because I feel extremely confident about how I want to portray them. Hell, I've had ideas that would require an interracial couple as the focus that I've not posted on E because I worry that I'm going to end up offending someone. It's not often, but I tend to like more extreme content in my rps, which means playing with darker aspects of humanity (content wise, obvi, not skin color-dark) and the things people get up to/do to each other and I worry that people will think that because I picture the couple being interracial, that I think all people of that race behave that way.

[Wolfling72]

I hope my words weren't taken offense. I probably should've been more concise about what I was getting at, but I was very frustrated. I do not rp interracial lay couples for the sake of kink. I do this to have a variety because of the demographic on E.

No darlin'. I knew what you meant and understood why you would be frustrated and bothered enough to start this thread. Basically I was answering your queries with regards to myself. *shrugs* Since I am particular about who I write with (and because I don't think of interracial stories as inherently interracial) I was just trying to explain WHY I feel the way I do.

(And I r/p kink for kink's sake but ethnicity has never been a kink for me. Making a male or female whimper because I am a bad boi is kink for me. That was the main thrust of my answers, I guess...and the main reason why I don't read many stories that are marked as interracial)

I don't play outside my race for fear of getting it horribly wrong (fictional races notwithstanding).  'I know that I know not', as some philosopher once said.  However, I would not take it amiss if a partner suggested that their character was of a specific ethnic background, and would try to keep their personal descriptions in mind as I wrote.

This is one of my biggest worries as well. It's only very occasionally I will play outside my race, and usually only because I feel extremely confident about how I want to portray them. Hell, I've had ideas that would require an interracial couple as the focus that I've not posted on E because I worry that I'm going to end up offending someone. It's not often, but I tend to like more extreme content in my rps, which means playing with darker aspects of humanity (content wise, obvi, not skin color-dark) and the things people get up to/do to each other and I worry that people will think that because I picture the couple being interracial, that I think all people of that race behave that way.

And this is the attitude I usually notice on E (which has been lacking on other sites) and thus why I enjoy writing here as much as I do...because at the end of the day, it's story and character building, NOT kink. The fact that you worry about coming across "Wrong" means that you think about it. Most places I've written? That was as far from being the case as to be non-existent.

[Emjay]

As a visible minority and a TCK (Third Culture Kid) I write all sorts of characters from all different walks of life. I have always found it easy to connect with people from a wide range of cultures and religions and so I have always felt confident enough to write characters from all over the world. At the same time I haven't really experienced this sort of discrimination that some of you are describing. I may have experienced some ignorance but I always found that people were simply curious and when I answered their question they walked away knowing something that they hadn't beforehand.

When it comes to writing interracial relationships and those sorts of things, I personally am not attracted to a particular race or ethnicity and the same can be said of my characters. I do not seek out these pairings but they happen all the time because my characters happen to like someone of this or that race.

I don't play outside my race for fear of getting it horribly wrong (fictional races notwithstanding).  'I know that I know not', as some philosopher once said.  However, I would not take it amiss if a partner suggested that their character was of a specific ethnic background, and would try to keep their personal descriptions in mind as I wrote.

This is one of my biggest worries as well. It's only very occasionally I will play outside my race, and usually only because I feel extremely confident about how I want to portray them. Hell, I've had ideas that would require an interracial couple as the focus that I've not posted on E because I worry that I'm going to end up offending someone. It's not often, but I tend to like more extreme content in my rps, which means playing with darker aspects of humanity (content wise, obvi, not skin color-dark) and the things people get up to/do to each other and I worry that people will think that because I picture the couple being interracial, that I think all people of that race behave that way.

I can see where your coming from regarding culture. For example, playing a character from Beijing if you happen to be from Seattle but let's say you are American or British or whatever. Those countries have significant populations of minorities but just because someone's parents immigrated from India or they are African-American, doesn't mean that they aren't still American or British or whatever. The culture is still the same. A bit of research is all you need in that case.

[Lustful Bride]

One of her peeves in Cosplay was "black-facing", where non-black cosplayers would basically do what it sounds like if they were going to cosplay as a character that happens to be Black (Mace Windu, Jacob from Mass Effect 2, etc). Her stance on it was that the race of the character shouldn't be what defines the character. And they way she said it was perfect. It pretty much embodies how I feel about roleplaying with characters of different races. Granted it is not quite the same, but the same concept and ideology was something I took to heart and embraced.

Ohh...ive actually seen that first hand in Baltimore at a small comicon they had there and I was left completely stunned when I saw it....I get what the guy was going for but goddamn its like this person didn't have that little voice in the back of their head that says "This is a very bad idea, don't do it." . He had painted himself up as the character John Blacksad, from the graphic novel Blacksad.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I think I  kind of get what he was sort of going for since John is a black cat, and in his world hes also sort 'Black'....*unsure how to explain it since they are all animals..the only humans are statues of angels.*......uhh the animal and such that they are is supposed to be like an allegory for their real world counterparts.

But anyway when I saw it I was just open mouth stunned and I just wanted to go around apologizing to everyone who saw this guy, and I didn't even know him.

It was just horrible to look at. And that wasn't even the worst part of that convention, when we got back to the hotel (though a 'motel' might be a better name for it)  we got questioned by the cops upon returning because while we were out someone there got shot in a robbery...ugh never going to a comicon in Baltimore again.

Looking back I think I was the only one who actually noticed the guy doing it so....I don't know...

[AmberStarfire]

I find being from outside the US, I'm unsure of what terms are socially acceptable to use with people from the US relating to other races. I'm not even sure if it's socially-acceptable in the US to use the word 'black' if you're not, but I'll assume so since other people are.

I've written erotica with a black woman and hispanic men, but not black men or hispanic women, nor with anybody asian as far as I'm aware. I feel comfortable around black women, but I haven't known any black men closely. I would write with someone regardless of their race or gender if I wanted to write with them, but I also think I have a tendency to stick with the types of people I'm familiar with and feel I understand.

[Lustful Bride]

I find being from outside the US, I'm unsure of what terms are socially acceptable to use with people from the US relating to other races. I'm not even sure if it's socially-acceptable in the US to use the word 'black' if you're not, but I'll assume so since other people are.

I've written erotica with a black woman and hispanic men, but not black men or hispanic women, nor with anybody asian as far as I'm aware. I feel comfortable around black women, but I haven't known any black men closely. I would write with someone regardless of their race or gender if I wanted to write with them, but I also think I have a tendency to stick with the types of people I'm familiar with and feel I understand.

I grew up with some African Americans who didn't care and were fine with being called black. (Then again I grew up on a military base mostly surrounded by soldiers and they insulted each other for fun all the time so..maybe ive made a mistake.)

But ive seen and met some who only use the term "African American" so...it sometimes slips out and I don't even realize it. But I never use it in an offensive sense. If anyone finds it offensive just let me know and I will edit my previous post.

[Twisted Crow]

I typically don't like using the <Minority> American combo descriptor, but that's a completely different topic for me altogether.

[Caehlim]

I find being from outside the US, I'm unsure of what terms are socially acceptable to use with people from the US relating to other races. I'm not even sure if it's socially-acceptable in the US to use the word 'black' if you're not, but I'll assume so since other people are.

I'm not really qualified to answer this myself, but just as a suggestion from my own personal experience. Even if you don't know the right terms, most people won't be as offended if you're sincerely making the effort to be polite and take people seriously if they tell you that they don't like a particular term being used.

[Twisted Crow]

^ That's pretty much the gist. I was pretty much the only white guy in a Job Corps dormitory. People liked me because I was generally kind, I didn't poke my nose into other people's business and I didn't put on airs. I generally waited and felt my crowd out and picked up on what was acceptable and what was not. Turns out, a lot of people that aren't white also like to be treated like people first rather than a "special/different group" of people. Hence why I just never clung to the politically correct terminology. The only exception to this is the Native American. Because... well, "Indians" isn't the correct term for them. And simply saying "Native" doesn't make things very clear when trying to identify the ethnicity itself.

The only thing that drives me nuts with that is that it feels very inconsistent. Not only in terms of bundling ethnicities into one as if it were the exact same thing, but also it's like the equivalent of saying the Chinese and the Japanese are the same. Due to that inconsistency, I typically avoid those kind of phrases like the plague. ;D

The funny thing is, you can also be Black and live in this country as an immigrant from England (born and raised)... and people would still dub them "African American". I once new this guy from the Dominican Republic that actually got offended at being called African American, despite it being very easy for our culture to make the assumption due to the color of his skin.

[AmberStarfire]

Yeah I wondered that because not everyone coloured is from America. A lot of people aren't, and I'm not from America, so it's hard to know for sure without knowing someone's background and where they're from. I find it easier just to leave off discussion of race entirely for the most part and play whatever character takes my fancy.

[Wyatt]

I play and write interracial RP's with some frequency.  There is the forbidden lust/love part of things that entices me, as well as the aesthetic of contrasting tones of flesh.  I have written with partners who were Hispanic and  routinely played Hispanic characters, which was a wonderful fit since I am incredibly attracted to pretty much all women of Mediterranean ethnic backgrounds.  I GM a game outside of E which is based on a very 70's set of books, which makes sense since they were written then, which in canon form is all-white, but I tend to modernize the versions I run so that they are very multicultural, not for politically correct reasons, but because the books were written at a time that made them realistically incorrect.

On E I have had two experiences where interracial play has bothered me.  The first, and it is more of a class of experiences, has been potential writing partners who wish to write interracial, but want to make it derogatorily racist for fetishized reasons that make no plot sense.  A racist element to a US Civil War era forbidden love story makes a ton of sense and great writing, adding that element just to make the proposed story feel 'dirtier', no, that's not the kind of dirty I enjoy.  Have had to end discussions of RP's several times on that account.

The more bothersome experience was writing with a partner who experienced some of the same issues that caused this thread to be started.  She is a lady of color herself, but due primarily to those early experiences where partners turned her down when she played or proposed characters of color, she would only write white characters.  Her experiences were years ago and with people whom I do not feel represent the vast majority of writers on E, but I still found it quite upsetting that a writer was less willing to write characters who were black or brown because of it.

I don't think I have ever written an E tale with a partner who played a black female character, though I would certainly love to do so whether race was an element of the story or simply because that was who my partner chose as their character and inspiration for reasons unrelated to color/race as a major story element. 

[HairyHeretic]

I've played and played opposite characters of different ethnicity's. I simply see it as one more facet of the character. While I might have a preference for particular characteristics, I certainly wouldn't turn someone down for not having the same ones. If the character is interesting, if the story has potential, then it's all good.

[Nachtmahr]

I'm honestly surprised that different races aren't brought up more regularly when looking through requests and what not, but I have seen a few. I guess I didn't realize how hard it could be to find partners for it though, as the (in my experience) vast majority of request threads don't state any specific preference. I guess a lot of people assume that "Generic Caucasian male/female" is just some sort of standard. I have to wonder if that's because it covers a majority of the sites users who have just never really thought about it before.

I like all sorts of people - Male, female, alternative, African, European, Asian, werewolves..

Diversity is fun!

Yeah, I guess I've never really thought about the whole race-thing being an issue before, but perhaps the fact that I'm attracted to all sorts of people has blinded me to this?

From what you're saying, it sounds a lot like the kind of thing us Lieges might run into, where some people are outright unwilling to play with us because they think that we're somehow different to everyone else, or that we require special treatment.

Personally I've been turned away by someone in the middle of planning a story, as they realized I was a Liege and then told me that they would play exclusively with "Bio-Females" so I reckon I know somewhat how you feel when someone looks at you and (perhaps unwittingly) says something that's actually extremely hurtful.

But yeah, all in all I don't mind interracial at all. I have seen some extremely gorgeous black women, and.. Well, this won't be my first time saying this, but I really like myself a big, buff black man. Dark skin in particular has a strong draw for me. Don't ask me why, but when I look at dark skin it just always seems strangely warm and inviting, where pale skin is more sort of.. I honestly don't know where I'm going with that.

Sometimes I think a lot of people are genuinely afraid of coming off as unintentionally racist though. Maybe people are afraid that if they suggest they'd like to see a black person as a Sub in a BDSM or Non-Con story  they'll be misunderstood and thought of as racist.
I think that the only time I sort of chickened out a bit with something like that was when someone requested that my character deliberately use racist slurs. That was a long time ago now, and I'll openly admit that it made me feel so uncomfortable that I just couldn't go through with it. And yes, the main reason for that was that I was afraid that someone else would read the story and assume that I shared the same opinion as my character. Obviously that's stupid, as I'd probably never object to using extremely sexist slurs in the middle of some heated S&M or Non-Con.. But for some reason, racism was just crossing the line for me.

Now, I hope I haven't waffled on for too long! I just kind of wanted to tell the lovely La Dame that I'm sorry that she had to experience something like that, and that if she should ever want to talk (About negative experiences, about life in general, or about the possibilities of working on some stories together) then my inbox is wiiide open!

[la dame en noir]

I guess its harder for people to think about race if they're not constantly reminded that they're different in some way. Growing up and being told I'm different because of the shade of my skin has made race very apparent to ment. When I don't see characters in media, books, etc I want to put someone in there that can represent a black woman or woman of color. Representation matters a lot.

This is also why I prefer to play black women in roleplays. I've played plenty of European and Asian characters and I never saw anything different. So, I have to specify that I do intend on making my character black and if it offends or if the sight of dark skin and kinky hair is ugly and a turn off

Don't message me

lol

[Drake Valentine]

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

Yes, Interracial, interspecies, all sorts of things really.

Are you curious?

See above.

How do you feel about this interaction and have you seen it before?

I just recently had someone tell me that he didn't want to play alongside my black character because he doesn't like dark girls. He then procceded to ask if I would be willing to play a white or asian character. It struck me right in the heart. Not only do I play black female characters - because I just don't see enough in Literature, especially Fantasy - I am black. It hurt. I have been denied relationships and friendships simply because I do not fit the eurocentric standard of beauty. But in the same breath, I have been told that I am beautiful for a black girl because my skin isn't dark, my nose is small, and my lips are pout and not big. I have been told that I must be mixed because I am too pretty to be just black.

This is the kind of thing I have experienced time and time again. It has hurt my passion for writing and roleplay as well.

I often play in interracial pairings because - why not? I find everyone beautiful and the last thing I care about is what shade they are.

Do not really know what to respond here. I do not delve too deeply in others wishes. In reality, people will always have their various cliques or whatever. On E, there is a limit to such. Of course, anyone has any reason to be friends with whomever on the site or back in the real world; but on site is a more pressing concern given their behavior and how they act towards another as some things aren‘t tolerated here.

It is a cold fact of life, and that is something that makes everyone human. We are not all perfect, we will not be accepted generally by everyone. The best advice is just to ignore it and go about your business. If this became something hateful or spiteful towards you directly as a writer, it would probably be something that should be informed to Admin/Mods as again, that type of behavior is not tolerated. Otherwise, if it is something light, than dwelling on it doesn’t really change things and some people just can’t be helped given the route they follow in life. If they don’t want to write with you, oh well, just mosey along. If they are a hateful wretch about it, that is another thing formally noted.

I don’t mind such pairings, as formally mentioned, but I am not the most ‘R’ rated of writers here on the site. I tend to take things to the extreme and always make certain that me and my partner’s are on level footing. I have written racism roleplay. I have written sexism roleplay. Though that is what it is, roleplay, and I generally tend to ensure my partner is fine with it and when in a group environment, give proper red warning labels to content. Hell, I even started doing such in my solo games, in case any wish to stalk me and may not want to come across any material that may rise to offend. Though, the warnings are there and well, I honestly don’t care afterwards if it bothers any other reader.

I personally have nothing against anyone’s ethnicity as in real life I dated various women of different skin tones, including dark. Skin color doesn’t make the person, the person’s character makes them who they are. Unfortunately, most people can’t see it that way. Similar can be thrown towards religion as well, but I will not stray too far off topic. The end subject, it is just how we are brought up and taught and learn as we grow older, at least the latter for the ones that aren’t too ignorant to see things different with age.  But opinions are what they are, opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.

[Samael]

Having grown up in one of the colder European countries, it, at first, never bothered me that pretty much all of my RP was usually interacting with white characters (unless they were an entirely different race, i.e. elves, dwarves, etc), although in the last few years I've become increasingly aware of that fact, and even more of that there is a real limit on diversity available.

It also seems to me that a lot of people, out of fear that their character will not gather an interest, stick with the tried and successful method of just playing a white looking person. Unfortunately, while understandable, it deprives potential storylines of interesting and unique twists that would enrich them greatly.

Not to mention it takes away from making a cast more interesting.
Why can an Amazon in a DnD Campain not be black?
Why can the mighty, mysterious warrior who charges face first in not be Latin or Asian looking?
Why can the guy who goes up against a Lovecraftian tentacle nightmare not be Egyptian?
Why not have a group of South-African monster hunters come and visit the Netherlands in an attempt to hunt a demon?

I mean, simply from the aesthetics, a group of heroes of a diverse background would be a lot more appealing than a group of white people.

That's not even going into how interesting things could come from the cultural differences.
How would a black girl from L.A. react to meeting a Russian Werewolf in Moscow?
Would it be different than if the girl was from Tokyo? Or from Amsterdam?

I feel like there is a lot of untapped potential with the mixing and matching.
Wish it would be played with more.

[Lithos]

I like exotics personally, so non-caucasian ethnicities (as where I live overwhelming  majority is caucasian) and even non human races are a bonus to me, at the same time I can see people wanting to focus only on one sort of ethnic pairing in their RP, some might prefer latinos, others might prefer caucasians, great many seem to prefer asians and so on. We have so many people at E though that I am fairly certain that no matter what one's preference is, there will be partners to play with.

For me personally, it is despite preferences not a reason to reject partner or RP though, it is rather small thing among all the other attributes that make an interesting character.

[HannibalBarca]

Race is a social construct.  Ethnicity is too to an extent.  There's only homo sapiens as far as humans on this planet, and we're all biologically compatible, so there isn't a difference in species.  However, there is a difference between physical appearance and cultural considerations, and I think sometimes people conflate these two.

As far as attractiveness, I believe people tend to lean more physical than cultural when considering attractiveness of individuals who are significantly different than themselves.

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

I have, here on E and elsewhere.  However, I'm primarily a writer, not an RPer.  As an author, I damn well better be able to write as people who differ from me ethnicity-wise, sexuality-wise, and gender-wise.  My writing would suck balls if I only wrote white straight males.

In my personal writing (novel and short stories) I tend to use multiethnic characters now, anyway, particularly science fiction.  By the time we spread out among the stars, there's going to be no discernible ethnic groups anyway.

[la dame en noir]

I'm currently working on a fantasy novel where the female is a black woman. I rarely see black female leads in Sci Fi and Fantasy, I want to make this a successful one. The cast will be diverse and skin color won't be an issue.

[Lustful Bride]

I'm currently working on a fantasy novel where the female is a black woman. I rarely see black female leads in Sci Fi and Fantasy, I want to make this a successful one. The cast will be diverse and skin color won't be an issue.

I wish there ws a name for this where the cast is all diverse and strengthened by their differences..i always just called it 'Team Rainbow" as a reference to R6 since that's the first time I learned of such a thing and its always stuck with me/I love it so much :-)

[Denivar]

I just recently had someone tell me that he didn't want to play alongside my black character because he doesn't like dark girls. He then procceded to ask if I would be willing to play a white or asian character.

Personally, I love playing interracial role plays. I enjoy variety, and I do enjoy black women, a lot. But, I do think everyone has their rights to their own preferences. If someone doesn't want to play against a black (or a white, or Asian, or whatnot) character that's fine.

However, from what you're saying it sounds like this person's particular way of expressing it was a little rude and hurtful. Your avatar and profile make it clear that you are black, and many (if not most) role players prefer playing a character that is the same race as themselves. Saying "I find what you are unattractive. Would you mind playing as something you are not" is pretty rude in my view. So I think you have ever right to be hurt and upset by it, and I'm sorry that that happened to you.

[Nachtmahr]

As far as attractiveness, I believe people tend to lean more physical than cultural when considering attractiveness of individuals who are significantly different than themselves.

I don't think that's strictly true to be honest. I think that culture has a lot to say when choosing partners. I, for one, would struggle to be in a relationship with someone who had completely different interests, a wildly different political opinion, or a different stance on religion. There are plenty of cultural things that can make a person more or less attractive to someone, or at least to me. You might say that there's something of a "Blank Slate" when you run into someone on the street, and that you'd judge the attractiveness of a stranger based on appearance, but appearance can give you some strong cultural indicators.

For example, someone dressed in religious attire can easily be physically attractive, but not attractive to me over all because I may disagree with them on a cultural level, etc. Of course, the opposite is also true: Someone might walk by me, be physically attractive, and then only become even more attractive because they're wearing a "Mass Effect"-hoodie, thus indicating that we have some shared interests.

Of course, that's all different from person to person, I just don't think that there is any general rule when it comes to how one measures the attractiveness of another. Of course different people find different things attractive as well, and someone may well be attracted to something that you or I would find unattractive, etc.

My writing would suck balls if I only wrote white straight males.

Could you get into videogames please? Like, right now?

[Aethereal]

        I write characters of multiple races and species, so safe to say, I don't discriminate based on race. I am currently playing a non-white human character (I guess the closest skin-tone wise he'd be to someone from Northern India or South-African Republic?) against a white pseudo-human, for instance. I have also made two black woman characters specifically for RP in this year alone (granted, both are in sci-fi settings, rather than modern-world).

[Dhi]

If even just 7% of characters on sites like Elliquiy were nonwhite I would feel like the exchange of culture is mutual, but it's not. There are far more nonwhite writers playing white characters than vice versa. I have my own theory for why that is.

In 2016 I want to challenge myself to play nonwhite characters at every possible opportunity. If this costs me some stories here and there, that's fine.

[Florence]

I... don't particularly pay attention to ethnicity in roleplay pairings.

I mean, I'm not trying to be one of those "I don't see race" people, but when it comes down to rp pairings its literally the last thing on mind. I'm white, I've played characters of all different ethnicities. I consider myself a writer, and I figure I wouldn't be much of one if I could only write people who are in the same specific category as me. (Atheist/Daoist white transfeminine American writer is a fairly small subset of the population, I'd imagine.)

I don't often play in a realistic Earth setting though, so for most of my characters, if two characters are human, they're basically the same 'race'. I mean, its hard to be racist towards a black person when there's an alien, a werewolf and a demon all standing next to them.

A character I play off-site is essentially a dark-skinned dog demon in 13th century Japan... I kinda figure her skin tone is the last reason for people to judge her. And its certainly the last thing she judges about other people. All humans are equally worthless in her eyes.

I do have characters of color and write interracial pairings quite frequently. I love it. But the thing is I don't write it as a fetish or as part of a kink. I don't want my characters to be dehumanized or put on a pedestal because they have dark skin or epicanthic folds. My characters are much more than their race and ethnicity. It will have shaped the character of course, but it doesn't define all that they are.

Yeah, this, definitely. I've played characters in interracial pairings before, and its always simply been because the characters were fun to play together. It was never about fetishization or stereotypes.

[HeadmasterFelix]

Okay, first, that's gross and I'm sorry that happened to you (and probably continues to happen to you). It seems some people want to equate skin tone with any other physical characteristic one might have, and say that it's fine to not be attracted to a character on that basis, but that seems like a pretty bunk excuse. No one rejects a character based on their Snape-like nose or tiny Nic Cage eyes. But apparently it's a totally legitimate preference when it's skin color? Seems fishy.

I think racial preference is weird in either direction. In the case of rejection, I think it probably comes from underlying prejudice, which is obviously problematic. The opposite is just as bad, though. Fixation on people of color to the point of fetishism is super creepy. It's also really gross when people try to point out that someone is an exception to the rule, like "Wow, I don't usually go for Asian guys, but you're super hot." Like, really? Is that supposed to be a compliment?

As a white person, I obviously had no problem with representation growing up. Even my specific circumstances, like family structure and socioeconomic status, were represented well enough. I never took much note of it. However, I've been with a black man for several years (married for just over one year), and my perspective on race and representation has shifted dramatically. There are basically no couples who look like us, so for me, seeing interracial couples or families is personally very reaffirming, even if they aren't the same color/gender combination that we are. When people get down on it, either by actively denouncing mixed-race relationships or by saying that they can't be attracted to someone because they're a different race... it sucks. A lot.

[AmberStarfire]

I think factors that play into it are uncertainty - if people aren't really familiar with people of a particular race, they might hesitate to roleplay as a character of that race or opposite a character of that race in a game because their lack of knowledge or experience makes them less certain and they fear getting it wrong.

I'm white and have played Chinese and other Asian characters (I can't say Japanese because it was a fantasy setting but like Japanese). I feel like I can understand a Japanese character somewhat because I've been to Japan and countries in Asia, not that it's necessary. However,  I've only ever spoken with an African American person once or twice in RL (not counting online or Mumble).

I've spoken to people from Africa before, including one of the guys who used to be on my team at work. My neighbours growing up were Australian Aborigines so I feel more knowledgeable there. However, if I don't know people of a certain race well, I wouldn't be sure how to play them well, in a way that won't offend anyone by saying something or doing something that might be taken wrongly. For me there has to be some knowledge or experience of people to bridge the gap, and it seems like it would be so easy to come across wrongly, that I don't try.

[GothicFires]

Personally I could care less about the race of a character as long as it makes sense with the plot. I'm white. Most, but not all, of my characters are white. I'm not going to go look to write for another race for the sake of writing for another race but I don't put restrictions on my partners that the characters they create have to be white. The only requirement is that my muse find the character appealing in some way.

[Dhi]

If even just 7% of characters on sites like Elliquiy were nonwhite I would feel like the exchange of culture is mutual, but it's not.

I had my numbers backward here, I thought I might. 1 in 7 Americans is black, which is not 7%, it's 14%. Asian Americans represent another 6% and Arab Americans 1%. It isn't a distortion of the numbers to say that 1 in every 5 of us here on this largely US-based site put something other than Caucasian on our paperwork.

I think factors that play into it are uncertainty - if people aren't really familiar with people of a particular race, they might hesitate to roleplay as a character of that race or opposite a character of that race in a game because their lack of knowledge or experience makes them less certain and they fear getting it wrong.

Overwhelmingly this is more true for White America. POC are more comfortable exploring our differences, and this is why the 20% POC writing on Elliquiy translates to 5% or 3% or 1% characters of color. We will play white characters, but the opposite is almost never reciprocated.

I think there are two factors that contribute to this one-way street. First is that White America doesn't want to be seen as racist, and isn't sure what the rules of engagement are, so White America is afraid to make the effort. Second is that POC always have to make the effort. The cultures we're born into are usually going to differ from the culture we arrive into as Americans. I was born into "the Asian part of town" where there are "Asian markets" and "Asian things"; to be an American I had to adopt "the normal part of town" where there are "normal markets" and "normal things." I had to make the effort the first time I attended a school outside my neighborhood. What incentive do you as a Caucasian person have to reciprocate?

Striving to not see color is great when it comes to equality. That's commendable. Defaulting to white characters and white experiences is not the same as color blindness, though. The term for it is symbolic annihilation, and it is a bad thing.

[GothicFires]

...What incentive do you as a Caucasian person have to reciprocate?...

I think I might be a little more than mildly offended here. I'm white. I was born that way. I had no choice in it. I have no choice about it now. I assure you I did not grow up in a 'White' America. I grew up in the United States of America. My main use of white characters may be because I am white but that is no different that La Dame's characters being black because she is black. I had friends of many races in high school particularly because of band. I didn't limit my kindness to the color of someone's skin. In fact my experience was quite the opposite. There were specific members of the black community that got their kicks off bullying white kids. I was one of their victims for three years. My best friend's sister and I loved to collect Asian jewelry boxes and I even took a year of Korean Taekwondo taught by a Korean grandmaster. One of my favorite books was written by a black Frenchman, Alexandre Dumas. I don't turn off a documentary because it's on a culture that doesn't match my skin tone. I used to belly dance, Middle Eastern culture.

Being a jerk has nothing to do with the color of your skin. Making assumptions about white people because the color of their skin is just as wrong as making assumptions about anyone else based on the color of their skin.

Edited to clarify... I am not calling Dhi a jerk. That sentence was meant to reflect that, yes their are white people who are racist but there are also people of other races who are as well.

[Dhi]

What I'm saying is that Caucasians typically aren't pressured to adopt a second culture. Reading your examples, your incentive seems to have been curiosity- you were not pressured to collect Asian jewelry boxes, you decided it would be neat. That's great, I'm glad you did. My incentive for adopting a second culture was necessity. It did not matter whether I was curious about how White America lived. I could not opt out. It was, from about age 8 on, my second world.

There were specific members of the black community that got their kicks off bullying white kids. I was one of their victims for three years.

At a guess, these bullies were experiencing the same kind of culture clash and that was how they handled it.

I did not mean to accuse you of being insular, although separately, the global view of Americans- all Americans, including me- is that we are an insular people.

[GothicFires]

Everyone feels pressure of some sort. It is the measure of the person in how they handle it.

[Dhi]

Do you feel like an outsider to the culture of White America, as a white American?

[GothicFires]

I lived in Florida for 5 years. Let me tell you, White America didn't exist where I lived. A couple of my belly dance instructors were hispanic. The guy who gave me my tattoos was half Native American and half Cuban. I didn't go anywhere were everyone was 100 percent white. Of course there were activities that were predominately white. I liked state combat and dressing up for Medieval Fairs but wait... that's where I met my hispanic friends. And there is more culture to being Caucasians than the color of our skin. I didn't really catch many people of color attending the Celtic festivals. I have Irish, Scot and German blood that I know of. Had a friend who had a very Italian family. A couple of my friends were tall and Nordic. There are even hispanic people who have blond hair and fair skin.

So which white did you pick to fit in with?

White privilege is having white and Caucasian treated like dirty words. People assume that what you have was given to you and that you didn't have to work hard to get it. I've been physically hit because of the color of my skin. I've feared for my life because the color of my skin. Perhaps not as many times as someone of another race but those moments still happened.

[Skynet]

I hope that my post isn't going to come off as demeaning, and I don't doubt your own experiences that people have hated your heritage.  But the US does indeed have a dominant cultural standard, which can even permeate in isolated places.

In US society, most Western and Eastern Europeans are treated as white, as are several Southern Europeans such as Italians.  Many hispanic people are technically multi-racial, but due to a misunderstanding of Latino identity society groups all of them into one race.  There are many Latinos who self-identify as white, and many who have light skin might be viewed as white by the rest of America even if they themselves don't accept the label.  Regarding Southern Europeans, their tanned features initially had them grouped outside of being whiteness, but US society accepted them into the white paradigm decades ago.

Edit: As for "white America," British laws, culture, language, etc permeated what is now the United States for decades, and even in the days of segregation culture didn't exist in a vacuum.  African-American slaves adopted Christianity from Europeans, immigrants assimilated while retaining elements of their own culture, laws, school textbooks, etc pass down a universal standard.  Even Native American reservations are affected due to the legacy of boarding schools banning many cultural elements in favor of the US/Anglo/pseudo-British ideals.

White Western European culture elements are a dominant force in the US.  This isn't inherently bad in and of itself except when said culture is forced on others, and for the past few centuries voluntary and involuntary adaptions spread it everywhere.

Going back to Dhi's earlier posts, foreign people in American society are encouraged to assimilate.  In some cases this is practical, like understanding the laws of the land for better community cohesiveness, but many times not wanting to pick up on the dominant culture will mark you as an oddity at best, or picked on and bullied at worst.

Apologies if I come off as speaking for you, Dhi, or anyone else.

White privilege is having white and Caucasian treated like dirty words. People assume that what you have was given to you and that you didn't have to work hard to get it.

This can cut both ways.  Minority groups who have been historically disadvantaged in academia who end up getting a college scholarship or jobs can cause people to think that they didn't earn it by merit, but instead by affirmative action quotas.

[Lustful Bride]

I think there are two factors that contribute to this one-way street. First is that White America doesn't want to be seen as racist, and isn't sure what the rules of engagement are, so White America is afraid to make the effort.

*slowly raises hand* I will admit to this.... :-[
I play what I know and try to avoid offending anyone, because I love you all *hugs everyone on the site*. I think only once or twice ive played a Hispanic character.

EDIT: Added the below after seeing it.

This can cut both ways.  Minority groups who have been historically disadvantaged in academia who end up getting a college scholarship or jobs can cause people to think that they didn't earn it by merit, but instead by affirmative action quotas.

I actually have a Puerto Rican friend (I hang out with Puerto Ricans a lot...huh..*shrug*) who said he hated the idea of getting a scholarship just because he was Hispanic, that it was like a hand out instead of an acknowledgement of effort and almost like someone in a high tower who had never seen him was going "Oh you poor poor Puerto rican boy, heres a scholarship because your life is hard". 

I am personally on the fence about it. Since I know there are people out there being helped by such things but then again there are always going to be those who just use it to get a free ride instead of working at all...that's life I suppose :/

[GothicFires]

I want to apologize to Le Dame. I have just realized that I have helped derail this thread from it's origional topic. I appreciate and respect the opinions and feeling of others in what no doubt will be an issue that will still take generations to resolve. I ask that we return to the original topic or perhaps have moderates divide the thread if others wish to continue the second discussion.

[FarFetched]

I want to apologize to Le Dame. I have just realized that I have helped derail this thread from it's origional topic. I appreciate and respect the opinions and feeling of others in what no doubt will be an issue that will still take generations to resolve. I ask that we return to the original topic or perhaps have moderates divide the thread if others wish to continue the second discussion.

Lets get back on topic, then! Hmm, I feel like playing a bit of the devil's advocate on this one. *Puts on Debate Hat*

Defaulting to white characters and white experiences is not the same as color blindness, though. The term for it is symbolic annihilation, and it is a bad thing.

I thought I might bring up this bit in specific. In the media, I agree that Symbolic Annihilation is definitely a bad thing as it promotes the invisibility of minorities to the general public, but on E I don't know if that rule holds.

It is true that RP on Elliquiy, being publicly available (to registered users), is therefore a form of Social Media. However, almost all of the written RP here is for sharing with others on a personal level. With the exception of areas on the site such as the Red-Light District, most RP is done in small groups, or simply one-on-one, and by writers who might not be the most experienced at telling stories or acting characters. Since this site uses the English language as a default, most people here will have at least some experience with an English culture of one form or another, which tends to be a 'Caucasian' one. Even if they live in a non-English speaking country, the fact that they can speak English means that they likely have a close family member that hails from an English speaking country, or have taken a class to learn English, in which case they were probably introduced to some elements of existing English cultures as a part of the curriculum.

This is a bit important, because it means that all members of this form are extremely likely to have some knowledge on a 'Caucasian' culture. It would only follow that the most popular character ethnicity on this forum would be, similarly, Caucasian. White-majority cultures are, on average, the most well-understood by the users on Elliquiy, making them the easiest to both characterize and be understood by a user's RP partners. Speaking from experience, it's not easy doing the legwork to find out about a foreign culture only for the sake of an RP, and even then there are feelings of uncertainty in getting that foreign culture 'right'. That's why, I believe, there's such a strong slant towards white characters, it's simply the easiest to write.

And that's a good thing. Not everyone here starts out as a 'good' writer, and becoming a better writer doesn't necessarily have to include racial awareness in its nature. However, becoming comfortable enough to RP those races may require trial and error for some. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[theLeslie]

One of the things I love most about this fleshless world, is the skin of another does not matter.  It is an unknown, a mystery not to be solved but to be ignored.  While there are times when fun and philosophy can be had by bringing melanin content into focus, over all the only time it ever matters is when someone chooses to make it matter.  Here we are free to be literally ignorant of the other's color.  Even our subconscious inclinations towards one hue over another cease, and we can act with others as if we were all little more than human.  The fleshless world is a beautiful place, so long as we don't allow our insecurities, suspicions, prejudices, and social programming to affect us.

It is a place for exploration, a place where we can learn from a safe place about our own habits and desires.  It is a place where we can live within the virtual skin of anyone we choose, and attempt to gain a broader, more empathetic connection with all aspects of our species.  I have played characters of every color and many nationalities, because doing so forces me to bring my mind into a new sort of focus, a focus that I had not experienced in my day to day life walking about in the same flesh I was born with.  The experience I have is not genuine, I can never truly understand what it is like to be someone other than myself, but it brings me closer than simple imagination on its own allows. 

When you have walked a mile in the skin of another, it is much more difficult to see them as anything but a reflection of the self viewed through a mirror of tinted glass.

[Galactic Druid]

My policy on characters has always been to let my partner decide their character's attributes for themselves, and I'll do the same. Since I'm a big sci-fi and fantasy dork, a large chunk of my characters haven't even been fully human, let alone a single ethnicity. I look more for what's in the plot hook when I pick out an RP, as many good stories could be told with any race or gender as the main character.

For me, the most important thing is whether I think I will write well with a partner. Are we looking for the same kind of story? Are their Ons and Offs something that I think I could write? There's certainly physical traits I find more attractive  (long hair, as an example), but as a whole, any pairing would work well.

[Sethala]

I'm somewhat of two minds on this issue...

In a general roleplay, I don't care what ethnicity or race others play as.  It's their characters, not mine, so I really shouldn't judge, and I don't think oters should as well.  Sure, if you're playing a game in a very detailed setting, there may have to be some sort of excuse for why a single black person is in a city of almost exclusively Caucasian people, especially if the world is one where travel between different cultures is difficult (particularly medieval-era adventures), but even that should be easy enough to figure something out.  So I really can't respect someone rejecting someone just because of their character's skin color for a roleplay.

On the other hand...

Elliquiy is more than just a normal roleplay site; specifically, it's an adult and often erotic roleplay site.  And I feel that with this idea of eroticism involved, it's more understandable to be somewhat picky when it comes to certain details of your partner's character.  Some people just don't find certain races attractive, and I think they should be completely within their right to step out of a roleplay if the characters they would be interacting with aren't attractive to them.  Would I ever ask someone to change their character for an RP?  Potentially, though I would make sure to be as polite as possible about it, and even then it would be rare (and probably only if it was either a player in a highly erotic game I was running, or my partner in a one-on-one erotic game). 

[Humble Scribe]

This is a real minefield in RP but I'm glad to see someone raise it.
Disclaimer - I'm a white, middle class male. I don't suffer much discrimination (certainly not negative discrimination). I have been discriminated against because of my skin colour (in Japan and China) and it's a weird and unsettling feeling, and I can only imagine how it must be to have to deal with it day after day in a place where you are an obvious minority. Personally I find women of all backgrounds and cultures attractive. I've had girlfriends who were Chinese, Japanese, Indian and Tanzanian, and have played characters of East and South Asian, Afro-Carribbean and Middle Eastern backgrounds and tried to do so sympathetically. I'm a pretty liberal kind of guy and couldn't for the life of me imagine writing a post like the one the OP got. That's just plain rude.

But.
So help me, I get a charge out of stereotypical "interracial" black male/white female imagery. On an intellectual level I know it's about peddling dubious and long-ingrained negative stereotypes, of black men as more 'animalistic' - physically powerful and sexually potent, and less 'cultured' or 'refined' (and indeed of white women as submissive, receptive etc). I know intellectually that it is, in fact, purely and simply racist and generally bullshit, and probably a holdover of attitudes from a much earlier era. And yet it excites me. I find this hard to deal with, and if I were to play such an RP, I'd do it off list, with a consenting adult in private, because I wouldn't want someone who was genuinely of that background to read a middle class white guy pretending to be a black stereotype, because I don't want to offend people. I am much more sensitive to this than I would be of, for example, offending Catholics because I played a slutty nun. I'm aware that people of other ethnicities, including my own, are frequently fetishised to a greater or lesser extent. But it doesn't stop either the sexual charge I get from the idea, or the discomfort I feel about admitting to it.

[Dice]

From my point of view, story always comes first. If you can write a good story, you can plan, you can communicate and you mesh well with me, I do not give a fuck what you playing as. If you want to play a Negro or an African so be it. One of the girls I am playing at the moment is black. She is also fast becoming pivotal to the game.

What matters more, the skin colour of your escape into another world or your own stupidity? Personally I do not care what colour my escape pod is as long as its a fun journey.

[Anteros]

I have no issue with interracial pairings, in play or in real life.

Perhaps because of my personal background (my own family is a rainbow of colors and cultures), I've always found it rather odd that people would give much importance to the skin color of a relationship's participants. It took me a while to discover that some people found others with a phenotype different than their own repulsive.

It is seldom just a matter of preference either. A mere preference for people sharing their skin color would make one choose someone of their own ethnicity over someone different, but it shouldn't make one outright dismiss someone different in the absence of more appealing competition.
Someone refusing to RP with a character of another skin color is showing overt dislike and rejection. The fact that this prejudice would extend even to someone's fantasies is kind of mindboggling to me.

[la dame en noir]

I have no issue with interracial pairings, in play or in real life.

Perhaps because of my personal background (my own family is a rainbow of colors and cultures), I've always found it rather odd that people would give much importance to the skin color of a relationship's participants. It took me a while to discover that some people found others with a phenotype different than their own repulsive.

It is seldom just a matter of preference either. A mere preference for people sharing their skin color would make one choose someone of their own ethnicity over someone different, but it shouldn't make one outright dismiss someone different in the absence of more appealing competition.
Someone refusing to RP with a character of another skin color is showing overt dislike and rejection. The fact that this prejudice would extend even to someone's fantasies is kind of mindboggling to me.

This is exactly how I think. I just don't get the concept. I really don't, a lot of it stems from our culture.

[Tamhansen]

I'll doubt you'll find much disagreement on that on E! (All these lefty bleeding heart liberals :P:P:P ) Seriously though, I really don't think playing with someone of a different colour writer or character should ever be an issue. That said, I rarely play someone with a different ethnic background than my own, simply because often, there is an expectance of a certain culture involved, and I don't really know if i can accurately portray said culture.

[Lustful Bride]

This is exactly how I think. I just don't get the concept. I really don't, a lot of it stems from our culture.

I wouldn't say it stems 100% From our culture, since as Humble Scribe pointed out, eh was driscriminated against overseas in China and Japan. I personally had a teacher who was part of a group that went to China and all the Blacks and Hispanics in her group were singled out by the locals, given looks and stares that were a mix of curious and hostile.

Its more like cultural flotsam that resides with all humans that no matter how much we try and throw it out, some of it always remains and sometimes grows back to replace what we threw out.

[Anteros]

I'll doubt you'll find much disagreement on that on E! (All these lefty bleeding heart liberals :P:P:P ) Seriously though, I really don't think playing with someone of a different colour writer or character should ever be an issue. That said, I rarely play someone with a different ethnic background than my own, simply because often, there is an expectance of a certain culture involved, and I don't really know if i can accurately portray said culture.

Well as long as the game take place in a cosmopolitan setting, it souldn't pose too much trouble. Culture, origin and phenotype are not synonymous, after all. Your character should be an individual, not a stereotype.  ;)

[Tamhansen]

I agree. Yet expextations play a major role. And so does culture. Even in real life. Look at all those Americans who say barack obama isn't a black guy because he acts too white. Not sure what acting white is, but its the kind of thing I hear with acting and role playing as well.


Worse, one time I did play a black man, I was accused of blacking up. Hadnt written a single word yet.

[Blythe]

As far as interracial RPing goes...I suppose I've technically written interracial RPs, but that's never how I actually thought of them. I tend to think of my RPs as about people in general rather than thinking overmuch about ethnicity. I've found that the more I try to focus on the "right" way to write non-white characters, the more I overthink it and lose sight of the fact that people are people, regardless of skin color, and really the best I can do is just do a little research and have fun crafting a new character. ^^

I start off thinking of a character concept I'd like to play, like "computer hacker genius!" and I typically just pick an appearance based on whatever wows me. Then I just write my characters like interesting people and tend not to overthink things about skin color. I figure if I get something particularly awry/incorrect, my writing partners would just casually mention it, and I can take the constructive criticism in stride and edit/improve my writing.

I do want to write more non-white characters (and I pretty much don't care about the ethnicity my writing partners want for their characters beyond a passing interest in which model they might use for a face claim/what art they'd use + a few extra details, mostly minor ones). Mostly this is because I just like expanding my variety/repertoire of characters I want to write, though.

Maybe I just don't think about it as much as I should? :/

I used to worry about this sort of thing a lot more until I realized...I'd much rather try to push myself and make mistakes (and improve myself over time) rather than let my hesitance goad me into not trying.

[Anteros]

I'm sorry you had to experience that. I'd never even seen the expression "blacking up" before. For what it's worth I don't think you did anything wrong.

As for Barack Obama acting white... what is that even supposed to mean? There are hundred of millions of white people of dozens of nationalities and even more ethnicities. Anybody saying those people are all supposed to behave the same way and that they have a sort of monopoly on specific behaviors should probably be regarded with the highest suspicion. 

[Tamhansen]

blacking up  is used to denote white people who paint themselves black. Originally only used for people doing it to perform derogatory stereotypes of black people (Good example being minstrel groups in the US in the 20's who painted themselves into exagerated versions of black stereotypes known as blackface

trigger warning

A more recent parody of this idea was portrayed by Robert Downey junior in the ben stiller movie Tropic thunder, where he plays a white australian hired to play a black guy.

But in recent times it has also become used to denote white people portraying less negative stereotypes of black people, or even in certain cases I've seen the internet gone crazy over larpers who'd painted themselves black to portray Drow.

As for Obama. Well I guess it has to do with perception.

[Sirian Eve]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I can definitely understand where you are coming from. I often thought it may have been due to the over-saturation of caucasians seen not only on television, but comics, anime, and books. It is a sad, beyond sad that you have to deal with that in areas where the imagination is supposed to be most expressive. I am also a person of color, female person of color and I like to use that as huge plus sign when writing stories or coming up with characters. I feel it makes the character more unique because it's not something you see heavily in fantasy or science-fiction like you said.

I've never personally experienced discrimination when it comes to roleplay. Most of my partners have been very open, but you always wonder. Don't let that deter you from what gives you joy though. Some people just are to close-minded. You ask why is it that they prefer light characters and when you get down to the bottom of it some people just  prefer to exercise discretion with characters they can see themselves having more common ground with.

I however...enjoy all the colors of the rainbow.  ;) Do I have a preference? Yes, but that may be my insistent craving for a good L.A. Banks novel.

[Skynet]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I can definitely understand where you are coming from. I often thought it may have been due to the over-saturation of caucasians seen not only on television, but comics, anime, and books. It is a sad, beyond sad that you have to deal with that in areas where the imagination is supposed to be most expressive. I am also a person of color, female person of color and I like to use that as huge plus sign when writing stories or coming up with characters. I feel it makes the character more unique because it's not something you see heavily in fantasy or science-fiction like you said.

I've never personally experienced discrimination when it comes to roleplay. Most of my partners have been very open, but you always wonder. Don't let that deter you from what gives you joy though. Some people just are to close-minded. You ask why is it that they prefer light characters and when you get down to the bottom of it some people just  prefer to exercise discretion with characters they can see themselves having more common ground with.

I however...enjoy all the colors of the rainbow.  ;) Do I have a preference? Yes, but that may be my insistent craving for a good L.A. Banks novel.

Might be a nitpick, but a lot of Japanese designers and fans don't automatically intone light-skinned anime characters to be caucasian. In fact, over there it's a steretoype that most white people are blonde and have prominent noses, so when they wish to designate a caucasian character they use those features. Of course this is also an inaccuracy, and doesn't change the fact that darker-skinned characters are underrepresented in anime, and that manga set in Europe (like Fullmetal Alchemist) often has characters drawn the exact same way as anime set in Japan.

But it's a thing that pops up due to differing perceptions from West/East fandoms and emphasis on certain features. And that Japanese people are overall lighter-skinned than other East Asian groups (from what I've seen).

I've seen the claim that "people read their own races into characters," but in regards to manga I don't see many fans of African, Indian, or Native American heritage saying that most anime characters look like them. So I think it's the skin tones.



In related to your second bolded note, I always found the primarily white casts on sci-fi shows amusing, considering that several countries today with the largest space programs include China, South Korea, Iran, and Japan in addition to Russia and Western nations. Take for example Firefly, where it was implied that China had a big presence in space colonies, but no Chinese actors or characters were present on the show itself.

I recall of how Star Trek (Original Series) was advanced for its time with Uhura and Sulu as Enterprise crewmembers. If it were released in the modern day I get the feeling it'd be derided as "too politically correct!"  :P

[Sirian Eve]

Very true.

I do remember growing up watching Sailor Moon and thinking " They can have naturally blue and green hair, but not dark skin?"

As for science-fiction and fantasy I liked seeing representatives of the rest of the human race wherever I found them. In regards to firefly I really latched on the character of Zoe (I think that's her name) because she is a strong woman of color. However there's a whole history behind afro futurism and the great space race. I'm just a believer of equal representation.

[la dame en noir]

I agree. Yet expextations play a major role. And so does culture. Even in real life. Look at all those Americans who say barack obama isn't a black guy because he acts too white. Not sure what acting white is, but its the kind of thing I hear with acting and role playing as well.


Worse, one time I did play a black man, I was accused of blacking up. Hadnt written a single word yet.

Acting white = Being Educated/Intelligent

Its always meant that and it needs to stop.

[la dame en noir]

I wouldn't say it stems 100% From our culture, since as Humble Scribe pointed out, eh was driscriminated against overseas in China and Japan. I personally had a teacher who was part of a group that went to China and all the Blacks and Hispanics in her group were singled out by the locals, given looks and stares that were a mix of curious and hostile.

Its more like cultural flotsam that resides with all humans that no matter how much we try and throw it out, some of it always remains and sometimes grows back to replace what we threw out.

I'm specifically talking about American culture and the dominance of white beauty.

[Lustful Bride]

I'm specifically talking about American culture and the dominance of white beauty.

Il give you that one.

I always just stuck with what my Dad said once,
"Racism, sexism, etc. are all just concepts invented by someone to use to justify their hate, exploit others, or to hide the fact that they themselves are a piece of shit."

He wasn't much one for mincing his words. :/ 

Then again what is beauty? :P Certainly not those plastic models we have shoved in our faces 24/7

[Nachtmahr]

Then again what is beauty? :P Certainly not those plastic models we have shoved in our faces 24/7

Well, isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?

I'm sure that some people consider these "Plastic Models" beautiful, otherwise they simply wouldn't be used as often as they are. Hell, I know one girl who had her body augmented since nature had decided that she shouldn't have much in the way of breasts, and it helped her through something of a personal crisis. A personal crisis that was as valid as any, I might add.

I think it's important that we don't end up doing exactly what we're arguing against here: Generalizing and becoming the arbiters of what is and is not beauty.

Victoria Secrets has no right to claim that they have found the universal answer to what beauty is, but neither do we.

[Renegade Vile]

So I ask you E, do you play in interracial pairings?

I, for one, do, though it still depends on the race in question. I have my visual preferences like everyone else does but I don't have an issue with female characters of any race so long as I can imagine it fitting with my own character in question. Additionally, I usually look at it from the character's standpoint and try to give them preferences that are different from my own. But that's somewhat off-topic.

Are you curious?

No need to be.

How do you feel about this interaction and have you seen it before?

I have no positive nor negative feelings on this issue and I have seen it before. To me, race makes absolutely no difference beyond aesthetics. A person's race tells me absolutely nothing about them aside from assumptions based on probability. Most black people I would meet where I live would come from Africa, so I can assume they adhere to one or more African cultures. But, I could be completely off the mark, since the person could have been born and raised in Flanders, speak Flemish and otherwise be as Flemish as I am, and not-African as I am. We have to call a group something, but I inherently think it's flawed to group people together by the color of their skin or their ethnicity when trying to do anything but describe common visual traits among them. Just being white doesn't make me American, Flemish, British or Spanish in any way, shape or form. As such I also have no problem with someone who doesn't like role playing romantic games with women of color. If they don't find common visual traits of that ethnicity appealing, who are any of us to tell them that's wrong?

I just need some clarity, because I have never felt so inhumane and hurt before.

You might be taking this person's preferences a bit too personal, lady La Noire. Unless they were rude and callous about it. It is also wrong that they approached under this pretense even though you stated clearly you role play as black women. But, that aside, don't you have preferences as well? I'm sure you like certain facial shapes more than others? Things like that. In the same vein, some men and women like dark skin, some don't. Sexual attraction is about a mix of the physical and mental, and I don't think most people can just separate the physical element from it.

As for the ideal of white beauty, why should that automatically be linked to racism? Most people, even in multi-cultural environments, still grow up near people of their own race. Your childhood is probably the most defining period of when your idea of what is attractive takes root. I honestly don't think movies and tv shows have that big of an impact on it, but rather the people around you and interactions with them do. If you grow up surrounded mostly by white women, odds are, you're going to be primarily attracted to white women. That doesn't mean you will -only- be, but there is going to be a skew in their favor. It's familiarity and nothing more. On the flipside, some people experience the exact reverse and find other races to hold something 'exotic' (a dirty word, for some reason, even though it just refers to them being different from what you're used to seeing. Different is also a dirty word these days despite the fact that -everyone- is different) and are attracted to that instead. Again, I doubt the media has much of a play in this as the media caters to what people want, it does not dictate what people want.

White guys on average have a predisposition towards white women. As far as I know, white people still make up the majority in America when dividing it into ethnicities. To reach the biggest demographic in the easiest way they can, companies will cater to that group. I agree that it's about time there's some variety put forth, but good luck convincing media conglomerates to put in more money and effort when they can take the easy way out.

...

This may have gone entirely off topic, I only really read the first few posts of this thread.

[Renegade Vile]

Perhaps because of my personal background (my own family is a rainbow of colors and cultures), I've always found it rather odd that people would give much importance to the skin color of a relationship's participants. It took me a while to discover that some people found others with a phenotype different than their own repulsive.

The people who find others repulsive are extreme examples, but otherwise, what's so hard to understand? Everyone has preferences and a different ethnicity is more than just another skin color. A whole slew of visual differences come packed with it, all of which contribute to the appearance of the person in question. If many of those traits are not in line with what the person finds attractive, why should they force themselves to be attracted anyway? What sense does that make?

It is seldom just a matter of preference either. A mere preference for people sharing their skin color would make one choose someone of their own ethnicity over someone different, but it shouldn't make one outright dismiss someone different in the absence of more appealing competition.

Why? You just said there is more appealing competition. Why would someone not go for as appealing as they can? I'm not disputing there is more to a person and a relationship than skin color and physical attraction (way more) but it is still a key element in the psyche of most people. So why would they not prioritize the person they are the most attracted to?

Someone refusing to RP with a character of another skin color is showing overt dislike and rejection. The fact that this prejudice would extend even to someone's fantasies is kind of mindboggling to me.

Heaven forbid someone reject something they dislike. Unless it's done in a rude, callous, aggressive or otherwise malign fashion, what is wrong with someone's fantasies not including women of a certain skin color/ehtnicity/what have you?

[Nachtmahr]

Heaven forbid someone reject something they dislike. Unless it's done in a rude, callous, aggressive or otherwise malign fashion, what is wrong with someone's fantasies not including women of a certain skin color/ehtnicity/what have you?

I have to partially agree with this, but add that the idea that rejecting a fictional character because of how they look should not be taken as someone showing "Overt dislike and rejection" of that type of person in general. If you genuinely find people with a dark color of skin less sexually attractive, that does not show "An over dislike" of that type of person. It shows that you don't necessarily want to sleep with them in a scenario (A fantasy) that is completely under your control, where you can have pretty much anything you like.

I think it's actually absurd to say that a person is outright prejudiced if their sexual fantasies do no include people of color, but center around one particular skin color. Gay roleplayers who reject female characters are not misogynist, and unless someone is indeed being rude or callous you're crossing the line by calling out prejudice/distaste/racism where there is none to be found.

It's only natural for people to carry over their sexual interests into the stories they write, so it confuses me why you'd think people are prejudiced when carrying over their sexual preferences. It feels like you are putting any rejection for any reason into the same box, and choosing to take them all personally regardless of context. People are all wired differently though, and everyone does not find everything attractive.

If someone rejected you, stating that: "I don't want to play with you because you want to play (Or you are) a black person, and I don't like black people." Then I fully agree that we may have a problem and that this person is showing a troublesome view of their fellow humans. You'd not even be blamed for calling it racist or prejudiced.

But if someone rejects you because: "I don't find black people sexually attractive, I'm sorry." Then we're in a situation where no one is at fault. You're not in the wrong for wanting to play out your preferences, but neither are they. It's not close-minded or offensive to find someone unattractive.. It's just natural. Some people like different things.

I think muscular black men in particular are fiercely attractive, and I have a profound love for black women for reasons I probably shouldn't go into in this thread, but some people would disagree with me. Some people would say "No, I think Arab women are the most gorgeous, mysterious and seductive!" and others still will say "No, the chubby white girl next door, that is the ultimate in female beauty!".

Everyone is free to pick and choose, and no two people have the exact same preferences. Human sexuality is like a herd of Zebras. Some like large people, some like muscular people, some like black people and some like white people. Unless they are being offensive or aggressive about it, then no one really has any right to say that anyone should be writing stories they don't enjoy as much as they possibly could. I personally would happily play out interracial stories. Doing so is quite vanilla compared to most of the stories I write to be honest. But not everyone feels the same way, and that's okay. Not finding someone sexually attractive isn't a sign for distaste, hatred or prejudice towards that person.

[Renegade Vile]

I cannot agree more, lady Nachtmahr.

[la dame en noir]

SIGH

The idea of Eurocentric standards of beauty do stem from racism. I'm sorry, but I do not understand or agree with finding someone repulsive because of the color of their skin. Many people of different cultures are raised to reject people of dark skin, even if it means forcing their kids to marry someone of fairer skin, bleaching their skin, and obtaining ideals that are more closely related to European genetic traits.

This is especially true in cultures where people are of a darker skintone. It is very prevalent in African, Black-American, Latino, Asian, and Indian cultures. I don't know how else to say this without getting red in the face. I can't comprehend it because I do not think that way.

Colorism is a huge thing in black communities. Often - black men and women(more often women) are ridiculed and put down if they're darker than what is acceptable. Parents will tell their kids to stay out of the sun, try skin bleachers, date a white or hispanic male/female so their grandkids have "light skin and good hair". In a lot of cultures being "dark" or "black" is ugly and that mindset is very toxic. This is why you have so many movements in different cultures to embrace loving who you are. Brazil East Asian

I had one white male tell me that he would fuck me, but would never marry a black woman because he doesn't want his kids to be black, look black, or carry any genetic diseases african-americans may have.

Even a London club was refusing entry to dark skinned black women.

It took me a VERY long time to love myself. I wanted so badly to be Asian or White anything that wasn't black because no one found me beautiful or worthy of marriage or anything intimate. Society is very harsh towards dark skinned woman and even harsher towards black women. Black women are on the lowest of the totem pole when it comes to dating.

[Kythia]

The idea of Eurocentric standards of beauty do stem from racism.

I think here is where you're losing people a little.  What you seem to be saying is that not being attracted to black (or non-European) people is itself a racist act and people are, understandably, arguing against that:-  It's pretty clearly not.  Arguing that the prevailing standards of worldwide beauty are heavily influenced by the European ideal is a stronger position, and one I'd likely agree with, but drilling that systematic issue down to an individual person being prejudiced (and I can't tell for sure whether you mean to do that or not, so apologies if you don't) is a step too far.

[la dame en noir]

I think here is where you're losing people a little.  What you seem to be saying is that not being attracted to black (or non-European) people is itself a racist act and people are, understandably, arguing against that:-  It's pretty clearly not.  Arguing that the prevailing standards of worldwide beauty are heavily influenced by the European ideal is a stronger position, and one I'd likely agree with, but drilling that systematic issue down to an individual person being prejudiced (and I can't tell for sure whether you mean to do that or not, so apologies if you don't) is a step too far.

Considering media? I'd have to disagree. It could be a preference or whatever anyone is calling it, or it could be that this person has a distaste for anyone that is black or dark skinned thats racist and I'm not sure how else to call it. This is from years of rejection and finding it hard to fit into a variety of things.

I was also responding another comment - I just lazily didn't quote it. When England/Portugal/Spain (just to name a few) have colonized and controlled other parts of the world, of course their ideal of beauty will be pushed forth and thus others will follow in that path. That's just how the world works and its not cute.

[Renegade Vile]

SIGH

The idea of Eurocentric standards of beauty do stem from racism. I'm sorry, but I do not understand or agree with finding someone repulsive because of the color of their skin. Many people of different cultures are raised to reject people of dark skin, even if it means forcing their kids to marry someone of fairer skin, bleaching their skin, and obtaining ideals that are more closely related to European genetic traits.

Depends entirely on how those standards of beauty are used. If they are used to deny people work by the color of their skin, I agree. If you look at it on a personal level, then I strongly disagree, because again, your preferences are your own. You cannot just blanket assume that everyone who isn't attracted to black people (or any other race for that matter) do so because they were indoctrinated from birth to do so. Those are, most likely, a minority. Also, there is a significant difference between finding someone of a different ethnicity 'repulsive' and not being attracted to them...
Also, define being 'raised' to reject people of dark skin? I do not know a single person who was told from birth to specifically reject anyone. If they do, it's always been a personal choice in my experience. I cannot speak for other locations on the globe though.

This is especially true in cultures where people are of a darker skintone. It is very prevalent in African, Black-American, Latino, Asian, and Indian cultures. I don't know how else to say this without getting red in the face. I can't comprehend it because I do not think that way.

Colorism is a huge thing in black communities. Often - black men and women(more often women) are ridiculed and put down if they're darker than what is acceptable. Parents will tell their kids to stay out of the sun, try skin bleachers, date a white or hispanic male/female so their grandkids have "light skin and good hair". In a lot of cultures being "dark" or "black" is ugly and that mindset is very toxic. This is why you have so many movements in different cultures to embrace loving who you are. Brazil East Asian

So basically, because some parents put such pressures on their own children, or some people do on other people of color, that automatically means that every single person who has a preference for certain visual aspects of a person on a sexual level (because again, we are talking purely about attraction here, they are not actively harassing, harming or even fighting with people of color, merely making the point that they do not find them attractive) is a racist? I'm certain that the perceived beauty ideal of white skin causes significant confidence problems in people of color and it is something that should be closely investigated and addressed, but that should not make it alright to force people to swallow their preferences and be "attracted" to everything and everyone. That is oppression of a different sort.

I had one white male tell me that he would fuck me, but would never marry a black woman because he doesn't want his kids to be black, look black, or carry any genetic diseases african-americans may have.

Then that ONE white male had issues that are beyond the scope of this discussion. Unless you think I, for example, am cut of the same cloth? You cannot blame everyone for one *sshole who was raised by idiots.

Even a London club was refusing entry to dark skinned black women.

Yes, ONE nightclub, owned by some racist. Again, tell me what this has to do with individual ethnic preferences for sexual attraction.

It took me a VERY long time to love myself. I wanted so badly to be Asian or White anything that wasn't black because no one found me beautiful or worthy of marriage or anything intimate. Society is very harsh towards dark skinned woman and even harsher towards black women. Black women are on the lowest of the totem pole when it comes to dating.

I'm not so sure about that. I've done some Googling on this matter and I've seen a ton of white guys who -want- to date black women, but seem to think they would not be interested in a 'white boy'. I've done similar searches for other ethnic combinations and I'm starting to think this is a problem everyone shares the moment they think about dating outside of their own skin color.
And you just said that you now love yourself, which is perfect, everyone should, but why does that mean that a hypothetical man should like everyone equally? You are comparing issues of racism with sexual preferences. It's exactly the same as demanding gay men should still be attracted to women or otherwise they are sexists because it will make women interested in them want to be more like men. There's no logical connection to any of that.

[Kythia]

Considering media? I'd have to disagree. It could be a preference or whatever anyone is calling it, or it could be that this person has a distaste for anyone that is black or dark skinned thats racist and I'm not sure how else to call it.

That was kind of my point.  Yes, it certainly could be racism.  But your statement seemed - and again apologies if that wasn't the way you intended it to be read - to be saying it was racism.  No other alternative.  That was what I was trying to pull out.

However, I think there's a problem in your wider consideration.  If we're willing to accept that preferring European looks over African ones can not be racism (as in "it is possible for it not to be..." not as in "can't be...") then your further contention that European standards being preferred is racism  takes a hit.  As you say yourself:

When England/Portugal/Spain (just to name a few) have colonized and controlled other parts of the world, of course their ideal of beauty will be pushed forth and thus others will follow in that path. That's just how the world works and its not cute.

There's no need for any prejudice to have happened here.  England conquers wherever.  Pushes English ideals of beauty (me, basically  ;D).  Original culture picks up cultural traits of colonial masters.  No racism needed.

[la dame en noir]

Sigh this is too much.

I'm accounting 1 incident out of MANY that I've encountered in my life. I can't sit here and explain it from a "minority" point of a view what many black women go through without someone saying "well this can't be true" because of what they encountered from the other side. Its not rocket science and its not hurting anyone what I'm saying.

By saying "you can not blame everyone" is basically acting is if I'm putting you with the people I'm talking about, you're making yourself the victim instead of looking at it like "this happens".

Again, I'm ending this conversation with you because it is too hard to get people to open up and just understand that shit happens globally.

Black people in general are seen as least attractive and sought after, it has been tested. I'm not making this shit up.

Thank you for you honest opinion.

[la dame en noir]

When one culture/race/ethnicity thinks they're better than another in any way shape or form - it is racism. I'm going to have to stop this right here and focus on the topic.

Being discriminated against as a writer of color. Thank you.

[Kythia]

Yes, my apologies.  Derailed that there a little, sorry.  Didn't mean to.

[Nachtmahr]

Well, I had a post written out when I saw the new additions, but since it was going along with the apparent derailment then I guess that it's now irrelevant. I do how strongly disagree with some of your arguments and I believe that you have misrepresented European history and culture by claiming that "Eurocentric standards of beauty" stem from racism.

I'm going to officially declare myself out of this discussion though, because I frankly don't feel like it is a discussion anymore.

[Renegade Vile]

When one culture/race/ethnicity thinks they're better than another in any way shape or form - it is racism. I'm going to have to stop this right here and focus on the topic.

The person that spoke to you does not think they are better than you, they have their preferences of appearance. No more, no less.

Being discriminated against as a writer of color. Thank you.

Apologies if you were offended, but I actually agreed with you on a number of topics, but I still stand by the fact that preferring one race over another on the deeply personal and intimate level of romantic and sexual relations, and extending this to role play for familiarity or fantasy is not, and never will be, racism. IT's as much personal preference as someone liking women who are on the heavy side, someone liking women who are on the thin side, someone liking men with blue eyes, some preferring dark eyes. There is -no- difference.
I will concede that the prevalence of white beauty in advertisement and the like makes women who do not fit that ideal feel like they are not beautiful and perhaps some people act on it, but I still think these preferences come from people around you more than what's displayed on some billboard or on an ad or in a tv show. It's same with the prevalence of stick thin models causing self-image problems in women of any race, and especially of a young age. But that should still not deprive anyone, of any race, from preferring certain visual aspects about a potential partner.

Please do not take people who disagree with you and try to debate calmly as discrimination, I am trying to understand your point of view and if I disagree, I will tell you. That's the nature of posting something on an open forum.

[la dame en noir]

Its too hard to try and explain everyday discriminations based on race, skin color, etc without someone thinking that they're personally being attacked.

Sorry.

I had an anxiety attack about this.

[Kythia]

Realistically, I think the discussion you want to hold would be better off in B&U rather than PROC

[Renegade Vile]

Its too hard to try and explain everyday discriminations based on race, skin color, etc without someone thinking that they're personally being attacked.

Sorry.

I had an anxiety attack about this.

I didn't think I was being personally attacked, I was only pointing out what I think might be a flaw in your thinking, that's all. I know you weren't literally saying I was a racist. It's a rhetorical question.
You don't have to feel so anxious about voicing your own opinion. It's your right to do so, no matter whether someone disagrees with you, or ten people disagree with you. If I made it feel like I was jumping down your throat, though, I do apologize.

[la dame en noir]

Racial issues are a very touchy subject, so its hard to explain to people what I mean - what I go through - what my community goes through, without some stress with it.

The topic will be closed soon I think.

Thank you to everyone for their input.

[Cycle]

I do not know a single person who was told from birth to specifically reject anyone. If they do, it's always been a personal choice in my experience. I cannot speak for other locations on the globe though.

This definitely exists.  You're lucky not to have encountered it. 

[Blythe]

I think that it's important to understand that la dame is not saying that someone who disagrees with her is guilty of racism. She's not intending to personally attack anyone. She's not trying to say those who disagree with her are racist, but she wants to discuss some pretty difficult and powerfully influential experiences she's had, in RL and also in some RP, that have affected her adversely and why she thinks that seems to be the case.

It's a very difficult thing to open up about the types of experiences she's discussed having.

So la dame is talking about some very real problems she encountered in real life (separate a bit from the initial RP topic a bit, but she's had some bad ones when it comes to RP), and I think it is important to acknowledge that she's had these experiences. For example, when I read this:

Colorism is a huge thing in black communities. Often - black men and women(more often women) are ridiculed and put down if they're darker than what is acceptable. Parents will tell their kids to stay out of the sun, try skin bleachers, date a white or hispanic male/female so their grandkids have "light skin and good hair". In a lot of cultures being "dark" or "black" is ugly and that mindset is very toxic. This is why you have so many movements in different cultures to embrace loving who you are.

I had absolutely no idea this sort of thing happened. It was heartbreaking for me to read. I can't imagine what it would be like to be a young black girl and be told to use skin bleachers or have to leap through hoops about how to style one's hair or get lectured about the "right" race to marry, all because dark skin would be perceived to be somehow bad.

I can't imagine the devastating effect this would have on self-esteem, on one's perception of self-love and beauty, but...at minimum, it would be incredibly harmful.

For that matter, just for the record? I think black is beautiful, la dame. You are just as lovely as anyone else, regardless of skin.

I had one white male tell me that he would fuck me, but would never marry a black woman because he doesn't want his kids to be black, look black, or carry any genetic diseases african-americans may have.

This dude sounds like a colossal jackass. Grade A Jackass, for that matter.

[la dame en noir]

Thank you, Blythe. This is what I'm trying to do...maybe I worded a few things wrong?

[Renegade Vile]

Thank you, Blythe. This is what I'm trying to do...maybe I worded a few things wrong?

No, I just did not realize the topic had moved on from your original post, I thought we were still discussing him not wanting to role play with characters of color was the main point of discussion.

[Blythe]

Thank you, Blythe. This is what I'm trying to do...maybe I worded a few things wrong?

Most welcome.

I think it's hard to to talk about controversial or hot button topics sometimes, especially in a text format. It's easy to lose tone and context.

I generally try to assume the most positive interpretation of what someone is posting, especially when it's about topics that can leave feelings very raw.

Realistically, I think the discussion you want to hold would be better off in B&U rather than PROC

Sort of? This particular topic is one of those that could hypothetically fit in either board. Is up to la dame if she'd like it in the B&U.

No, I just did not realize the topic had moved on from your original post, I thought we were still discussing him not wanting to role play with characters of color was the main point of discussion.

Yes, there's been quite a lot of discussion in between now and the first post. I think it's pretty easy to lose track of some discussion that happens in the "middle" of a thread. But yes, things have moved a bit beyond the initial RP discussion of the original post.

[Kythia]

I think that it's important to understand that la dame is not saying that someone who disagrees with her is guilty of racism. She's not intending to personally attack anyone. She's not trying to say those who disagree with her are racist, but she wants to discuss some pretty difficult and powerfully influential experiences she's had, in RL and also in some RP, that have affected her adversely and why she thinks that seems to be the case.

It's a very difficult thing to open up about the types of experiences she's discussed having.

Which is fine.  I don't think anyone felt they were being personally attacked.  I didn't, and Renegade Vile has said a few times that he didn't, I can't directly speak for anyone else but I'd be very surprised if it were the case.  That's a non-issue.

However, I would query your "wanting to discuss".  I think, in fact, la dame wants to "tell us about" more than "discuss".  That's in no way intended as a criticism, there are attitudes, events, etc. in my life that I in no way want to discuss on a public forum.  Not an issue, except for the fact that this is PROC and people will read the thread (or more likely the last few posts) and put in their opinion.  And la dame has made it quite clear that she wants the conversation to stay well away from certain areas - certain highly relevant areas, not obscure tangents.  That she finds it difficult to discuss them.  As I say, not an issue: I have similar areas. 

My suggestion that this was more of a B&U thread than a PROC thread was because of this.  La dame doesn't want a debate about this and doesn't want to be questioned on it.  It seems to me - and obviously you're the purple badged one so if we disagree it means I'm wrong - that PROC is literally the worst subforum on the site to do that.  B&U has something of a "no debate, this is about me venting" feel.  PROC doesn't.

In no way trying to tell you your job, just that I think you defended la dame from charges no one was making and missed some charges people were.

[la dame en noir]

I don't like the idea of "hey listen to me you're all wrong"

Which is why I posted it here. We can discuss, I'm just having an issue of everyone telling me that it couldn't possibly happen because its not happening to them.

I just want to stop repeating myself.

[Kythia]

Which is why I posted it here. We can discuss, I'm just having an issue of everyone telling me that it couldn't possibly happen because its not happening to them.

I don't feel anyone has actually said that?  What are you referring to here?

[la dame en noir]

Then that ONE white male had issues that are beyond the scope of this discussion. Unless you think I, for example, am cut of the same cloth? You cannot blame everyone for one *sshole who was raised by idiots.

This to me speaks volumes as  "how could you say that, i don't do that so its not happening"

I really want to stop now, I'm starting to feel like you want me to prove myself in ways I can not or find some flaw to make my experiences and others invalid.

So please, stop.

[Kythia]

Hmmm, him saying that that guy had issues and is an asshole is the same as him saying that nothing happened?

Anyway.  I'm out.  Third time lucky - you clearly don't want a PROC thread, ask for it to be moved.

[la dame en noir]

Theres a difference between a discussion and picking on someone because you don't like what they said.

Sorry.

[Blythe]

It seems like a thread-lock is in order. This particular thread seems to have run its course, and it's likely to only result in hurt feelings from this point onward all around.

Many thanks to all who contributed to the discussion here. Not an easy topic for anyone to talk about, and it was good to see what all the different opinions everyone had.