It's time for a third gender option.

[Vekseid]

We have about thirty here at this point that I am at least vaguely aware of, and the real number should probably closer to sixty to a hundred. Each month we get a more clearly intersexed person, though we've had them from the very beginning.

I hate the word 'other' though - it's a cop-out. It's done elsewhere but that doesn't quite fit here. "Hijra" is sometimes considered derogatory and may imply an unneeded cultural aspect.

So instead of Lord or Lady, does anyone have any suggestions? This is something I'm rather set on doing at this point and you will have a difficult time convincing me that it is not needed. Originally I was just thinking of made up words but that may just confuse people (it often does).

The Knight/Dame and other equivalents are a lot easier - Sentinel, Justiciar, etc. As with Satyr we'll burn the promotion bridge when we get to it : )

[Vekseid]

Hairy suggested 'Noble', which is probably what I will pick if ideas are otherwise scarce.

[Greenthorn]

sovereign- 1 a: one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b: one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c: an acknowledged leader : arbiter

Consul- During the time of ancient Rome as a Republic, the consuls were the highest civil and military magistrates

[Valerian]

Gentry might also work, as in landed gentry -- usually referring to the social class just below nobility, also including those who are given the non-inheritable title of knight or dame.

[Oniya]

I'd go with Gentry for the Lord\Lady level, followed by Consul for the Knight/Dame tier, and maybe Sovereign for one of the higher levels?  Although I would say that English really sucks as far as options for the gender-free go.

(Not that I had much luck with other languages - the closest I could find for a term that wasn't potentially insulting was 'kinnar', which is a term used in India to replace the more pejorative 'hirae'.)

[Greenthorn]

I'd go with Gentry for the Lord\Lady level, followed by Consul for the Knight/Dame tier, and maybe Sovereign for one of the higher levels?  Although I would say that English really sucks as far as options for the gender-free go.

(Not that I had much luck with other languages - the closest I could find for a term that wasn't potentially insulting was 'kinnar', which is a term used in India to replace the more pejorative 'hirae'.)

I like that Oniya.  I agree with Gentry, then Consul and Sovereign would be in place of Siren/Satyr  ;D

[HairyHeretic]

Consul and Sovereign would work, but you'd kinda lose the mythological feel you have with Siren and Satyr. I think I'd have to poke around to find something suitable there. Given the shapeshifting some of the fae types were reputed to be able to do, Gentry might fit in with Siren and Satyr (or maybe Sidhe, since that's the local one here).

[Vekseid]

Well, there's a reason I used warrior-style titles for the donor titles.

[Oniya]

Sidhe would be perfect (in my humble opinion) for the Siren\Satyr level.  You have both the mythical being (Gentry may have been used to describe the Fair Folk, but it is also used in a more mundane sense) and the ambiguity.

[Valerian]

There aren't a great many gender-neutral/ambiguous mythological creatures, unfortunately.  Sidhe is probably the best option as far as I can think of... the doppelgänger isn't inherently male or female, but that's awfully long, and who wants to mess with umlauts?   :P

[HairyHeretic]

Well, there's a reason I used warrior-style titles for the donor titles.

Well, Justiciar would fit there. Hatamoto might as well. Guardian is a fairly neutral term too.

[Valerian]

Justiciar does have a nice ring to it.  *nods*  More of a legal warrior, but the title was first used to refer to the person acting as regent while the king was away, so it does imply power.

[Xillen]

Sidhe is also starting with an S and 5 letters just like Siren and Satyr, making it easy to recognize.

On that account, something short starting with an L would be nice for an alternative to Lord/Lady, but my english ain't well enough to offer suggestions.

I don't like Consul. I could be off here, but to me it sounds like someone you can consult, ask for information, which seems inappropriate.

Likewise, I don't like Justicar either, as it implies some kind of moderator level.

Noble sounds more like the Knight/Dame level to me.

[Bliss]

I'm with Xillen, in that I think Sidhe would work really well for the same stated reasons for the S-level staff... the big concern here though is simply what term to use for the basic level of non-donating membership.

I was also trying to think of something to fall in line with the Lord/Lady convention... Short, noble, starting with L. I'm not fond of Gentry, just because (initial letter concerns notwithstanding) it's a word that refers to a group of people, not a single person.

[Xillen]

Also, what color are they going to get? I'd say teal, save to the fact that we're using overly much shades of blue already.

Will there also be a third Gender option in your profile?

[grdell]

Here's a wild idea - feel free to shoot it down, you won't hurt my feelings  ;) - what about not specifying gender at all in the title? You already use non-gender specific words for the number of posts (Seducer, et al), it could easily be accomplished to come up with more to indicate their position in the hierarchy. Rely instead on the Mars/Venus symbols (which some members lack... why?) for those that identify themselves with a gender, allowing those that do not associate with a specific gender to leave that blank or insert a different symbol, possibly of their own design? In that way, it would be obvious to everyone for all who identify with a specific gender to make it clear, and those that do not to choose to remain ambiguous or specify that they do not identify with a binary gender.

Just a thought.

[Vekseid]

Sidhe is currently a post member rank, but that's easily fixed. Currently the only member at that level is MadPanda >_>  Guardian works for the knight/dame level.

And English has no problem with mugging other languages in a dark ally and rifling through their pockets for loose vocabulary. If you have a foreign L word that implies nobility and is not obviously lord/lady, please let us know :-p Unfortunately I only know the formal terms of Japanese, which has no real 'l' sound, just a cross between r and l that most English speakers interpret as 'r' with the tongue nearer to the front of the mouth rather than the back.

Here's a wild idea - feel free to shoot it down, you won't hurt my feelings  ;) - what about not specifying gender at all in the title? You already use non-gender specific words for the number of posts (Seducer, et al), it could easily be accomplished to come up with more to indicate their position in the hierarchy. Rely instead on the Mars/Venus symbols (which some members lack... why?) for those that identify themselves with a gender, allowing those that do not associate with a specific gender to leave that blank or insert a different symbol, possibly of their own design? In that way, it would be obvious to everyone for all who identify with a specific gender to make it clear, and those that do not to choose to remain ambiguous or specify that they do not identify with a binary gender.

Just a thought.

You know the Lord's only forum? Have any idea how much grief I had because Sirens could read it?

Yeah.

[Bliss]

While not an issue for everyone, for some of our members it does quite matter what gender of writer they're working with. We've always had a deliberate separation of writer from characters, and a push toward honest revelation of basic information; specifically gender, age (at least that it's above 18).

Writing aside, gender also matters in terms of the gender-specific boards. We have one for Lords, and one for Ladies; to obliterate gender assignment of members would mean getting rid of these areas that I know at least for the Ladies are often a source of information and encouragement, and I imagine are likely also a haven for the Lords as well.

Edit: Yeah, what Vek said. :D

[grdell]

While not an issue for everyone, for some of our members it does quite matter what gender of writer they're working with. We've always had a deliberate separation of writer from characters, and a push toward honest revelation of basic information; specifically gender, age (at least that it's above 18).

Writing aside, gender also matters in terms of the gender-specific boards. We have one for Lords, and one for Ladies; to obliterate gender assignment of members would mean getting rid of these areas that I know at least for the Ladies are often a source of information and encouragement, and I imagine are likely also a haven for the Lords as well.

Edit: Yeah, what Vek said. :D

I'm not talking about obliterating it completely - I just meant getting rid of the words. Couldn't you filter based on different criteria? That symbol's got to be coming from somewhere.

[Bliss]

We'd be retaining the badges for other levels, though, including donators (Knights/Dames) and staff.... it wouldn't look right to deny badging for everybody else.

The gender symbol is coming from gender being set in your profile.

[Vekseid]

People actually consider the color distinction between genders here to be a feature - I plan on reworking the mentors to duplicate that, even.

[Greenthorn]

IMO and I've said this before..why not trash the lord/lady/dame/knight titles altogether and use the symbols.

It would greatly get rid of the need to create a new name! 

This one for those who wish:




Minus the colors on the pic..they are obnoxious

[Greenthorn]

Err and why not just do grouping...

lords and ladies in ONE group

dames/knights in another

I mean mentors are ONE group despite gender...and aren't mentors supposed to be reg members who help?  So ummm yeah..

(excuse any strangeness in the above...Today is day one without a cigarette for me arghhhhhh)

[Xillen]

While not an issue for everyone, for some of our members it does quite matter what gender of writer they're working with. We've always had a deliberate separation of writer from characters, and a push toward honest revelation of basic information; specifically gender, age (at least that it's above 18).

But it seems that in the past few months, it's shifted more towards what you like to have up there, instead of what you really are, which kinda defeats the purpose.

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=29801 for details on this.

[Vekseid]

...that's part of the reason for the new title, Xillen.

[Greenthorn]

Err and why not just do grouping...

lords and ladies in ONE group

dames/knights in another

I mean mentors are ONE group despite gender...and aren't mentors supposed to be reg members who help?  So ummm yeah..

(excuse any strangeness in the above...Today is day one without a cigarette for me arghhhhhh)

For clarity...this would need to be done with the symbols for the reason Bliss stated (about people only wanting to write with a certain gender..although I think those people are probably a minority)

[Vekseid]

The thing is, gender association is still a membergroup assignment. I would prefer to avoid creating more work for my staff...

[Valerian]

Okay, shotgun approach -- let me just rattle off a few potentially useful words.

Peer
Esquire (traditionally male, but now used so seldom that I don't think that matters)
Chancellor
Chamberlain
Castellan
Honorable (a gender-neutral title used in England for the son or daughter of a baron or viscount)
Don (in English, at least, was once exclusively for male scholars but now isn't so rigidly used)
Fellow (again, once exclusively male but now more gender-neutral, as in Fellow of the College of Surgeons, etc.)

[Bliss]

Err and why not just do grouping...

lords and ladies in ONE group

dames/knights in another

I mean mentors are ONE group despite gender...and aren't mentors supposed to be reg members who help?  So ummm yeah..

(excuse any strangeness in the above...Today is day one without a cigarette for me arghhhhhh)

Grouping the levels like that would defeat the purpose of having an easy, at-a-glance way of knowing another member's gender; the Mentor level has a single designation because it's one of the places in which gender doesn't actually play into the function of the role in any way.


All of this is moot anyway, as the point under discussion is NOT to create a huge upheaval in extant, working, established systems in designations - it's JUST to come up with a name, for the existing levels, to apply to a third gender grouping. If you have any suggestions for that, GreenThorn, I'd love to see them. You know lots of great words. :)

Edit for Valpost: Oooh, I like Peer.

[Bliss]

AUGH, I don't know why I didn't think of this before! I'm in the SCA, and there's a level for people who have made a certain achievement, be they male or female, called LAUREL! What think you, kind gentles? ;)

[Xillen]

Laurel sounds like a name to me. It doesn't have any other meaning to me, but I could blame my limited english.

Call them Peer, and everyone will blame them for all their IRC disconnects! :P

[HairyHeretic]

Laird? Though generally male, I believe you can have females who hold title to a Lairdship.

[Valerian]

The ancient Greeks traditionally gave a wreath of laurel leaves to those who had just won some distinction.  But yes, it is also a female first name.

On the other hand, an IRC reference in regards to peer flies right over my head...

[Vekseid]

Ultimately I'm going to run the list by the people involved, of course. Men and women aren't going to have the final say : )

[Bliss]

The ancient Greeks traditionally gave a wreath of laurel leaves to those who had just won some distinction.  But yes, it is also a female first name.

On the other hand, an IRC reference in regards to peer flies right over my head...

*bolds above* This is the root of the word as I have seen it used in the SCA, and in which I intended it, although I am aware that it is also a female first name in some places.

Just chalk it up as a suggestion for the folks concerned to consider, please, Vek. :)

[Xillen]

On the other hand, an IRC reference in regards to peer flies right over my head...

Pretty often on IRC, if a user is disconnected (so not when someone quits himself), it will list something like:

* Xillen Quit (Connection reset by Peer)

[Trieste]

... I would extend a laurel, and a hearty handshake to our new ...

Laird is very cool, but I don't know that it wouldn't conjure up visions of mis-spelled "lord".

[Omniferious]

Hey, how about Liege? It's the gender-neutral for lord and starts with an L.

[Mithlomwen]

What about the word Ling ?  We have NING for a new person, and it's gender neutral....would Ling work somewhat the same? 

Just a thought....

[Vekseid]

Hey, how about Liege? It's the gender-neutral for lord and starts with an L.

Hah, I think you win.

[Bliss]

Hah, I think you win.

Get that dude a gold star!

[Xillen]

Indeed, that sounds like a perfect match :)

So what's the Knight/Dame variant gonna be?

[Bliss]

I liked Justicar for that, since Vek said he liked the warrior-flavor for the donation-level membership badges.

[Vekseid]

Guardian, Sentinel, Preliator, Champion, hrm.

Justiciar implies someone who can enforce rules, cool as it sounds >_>

[Bliss]

Maybe Peer would work for that level? Implies a higher level of gentry just as Knight and Dame do. (And I don't see there being any REAL confusion between that and the standard connection reset message on IRC, honestly)

[Caeli]

I think Peer works for the Knight-Dame variant.

[Xillen]

Dame doesn't strike me as a warrior-type person, which made me think Noble would very well fit on the Knight/Dame level.

If you want the warrior-type person, Champion sounds best to me out of the mentioned options. What about Hero?

Relax, the IRC thingy was just a joke :P Still, I wonder how many people have actually heard of Peer as a social rank? I sure haven't, and it sounds really odd to me.

[Caeli]

Noble would also work.

I've used peer (peer of the realm?) in my writing more than once. It's not that obscurely used, I don't think, but I really don't think people would get confused by its IRC usage. xD

[Omniferious]

The only time I've heard Peer used as a social rank was when I would call my priest Peer at church, and then that was short for something else. It only made sense to me once I looked up the meaning of the word, and even then nobility was the fourth of six companions. Maybe something more immediately obvious should be chosen?

[Xillen]

It's just an ongoing joke among people that frequent IRC a lot.

Since it says "Connection reset by peer", this mysterious and completely fictional "Peer" being is getting the blame of it all, occasionally included by statements like "If only I could get my hands on Peer!"

But yes, it's a joke, hence the :P smilie when I first mentioned it.

[Bliss]

I know it was a joke; gave me an actual out loud chuckle, in fact. :D

[Valerian]

Peer isn't a specific rank like lord or duchess; it refers to peers of the realm, as Caeli mentioned -- basically anyone born to a titled family.  It's used more in England, but it is about as gender-neutral as one can get.

Liege is not, technically, a rank either, but it does fit very well with the general scheme of things.  :)

Champion is perhaps the best option so far... though yeah, Dame doesn't sound very warlike, either.  Heh.

[Trieste]

It depends on how you've been thinking of Dame most of your life... Dames, to me, are formidable ladies that may not necessarily carry a sword, but they are ladies with whom you do not want to mess.

[Vekseid]

Dame doesn't strike me as a warrior-type person, which made me think Noble would very well fit on the Knight/Dame level.

If you want the warrior-type person, Champion sounds best to me out of the mentioned options. What about Hero?

Relax, the IRC thingy was just a joke :P Still, I wonder how many people have actually heard of Peer as a social rank? I sure haven't, and it sounds really odd to me.

Dame is the term for a female knight. I have no worries about using obscure references >_>

[Caeli]

I think warrior was mentioned above? That could work well, if you want something more formidable than "peer".

[Mithlomwen]

Found this...not sure if it can be applied in any way.

Baronetcies

Like knights, baronets are styled 'Sir', and their wives 'Lady', but, unlike a knighthood, this is a heritable honour. The suffix 'Baronet', usually abbreviated to 'Bt', is also added to the name.

[jilorbb]

I think Liege is the best so far.

Also - has anyone suggested Regent yet?

As far as the Knight/Dame aspect -
Champion
Defender
Guardian
Sentinel

But I've just used a thesaurus for these and they're more than one syllable.

I have a stake in this so I really do hope that it comes to be. And I thank you for considering it.

[Avi]

Perhaps Deity for someone who gets high enough in rank to be the same as a god/goddess?

[HairyHeretic]

Aye, that's an easy one.

[Vekseid]

I think Liege is the best so far.

Also - has anyone suggested Regent yet?

As far as the Knight/Dame aspect -
Champion
Defender
Guardian
Sentinel

But I've just used a thesaurus for these and they're more than one syllable.

I have a stake in this so I really do hope that it comes to be. And I thank you for considering it.

It's been one of those things we've been mulling over for a few years, the primary reason why not is because the appropriate forum would have been rather quiet, the secondary being most intersexed, third sex and transgender types favor a gender, so didn't have to worry about the lack.

[Xillen]

the primary reason why not is because the appropriate forum would have been rather quiet,

But they're going to get their own "Liege only" and "On and Offs - Lieges" boards, right?

* Xillen still wonders if Vek is planning on adding a Gender option. Shouldn't be too hard to hack into the board.

[The Golden Touch]

Some potential names:
Hero
Heroine
Patron
Partisan

[Fragile Dreams]

Here are some thoughts i had after some time.(Yeah, i do that some times. :D )

Satyr -> Priest
Siren -> Priestess
Knight -> Protector
Dame -> Sentinel
Lord -> Bacchus
Lady -> Bacchae

I know that Bacchae brings of the Maenades, which were crazy priestesses of Dionysus, but i think it fits nice in the forum as word.
Also another idea was the Sirens/Satyrs to be merged as Arch-angels.

[Karma]

Boy, now I just have to decide if I feel strongly enough to switch to the third option... heh.

[HairyHeretic]

Satyr -> Priest
Siren -> Priestess

Also another idea was the Sirens/Satyrs to be merged as Arch-angels.

Can't say I'd care much for these myself.

[The Dark Raven]

AUGH, I don't know why I didn't think of this before! I'm in the SCA, and there's a level for people who have made a certain achievement, be they male or female, called LAUREL! What think you, kind gentles? ;)

ie...

Knight = Chivalry
Laurel = Arts
Pelican = Service

;-)

The problem would be, for those of us in the SCA, we'd be looking for belts and GoAs.... ;-)

[Nadir]

I personally prefer Laird for the Lord/Lady option.

[Karma]

I like Laird and Laurel, myself.

[Transgirlenstein]

Sorry if I'm a bit late into this but I have only one question, if someone identifies as other (that is gender queen, transgender and so on and so forth), how does one tell what gender they wish to identify is?

For example, If I am tagged as other..how do you know what I want to be referred to as?  He, she or it? 

[Vekseid]

You set that in your profile already, next to 'Gender' there : )

[Oniya]

I believe this would be for the tag, and then the gender icon below would be used for determining pronouns?  (Or people could - I don't know - ask? Yay, communication!)

[Transgirlenstein]

Oh okay! ^^

Heh, my comment and complaint is withdrawn then.

<3

[Trieste]

* Trieste has been known to ask what pronoun to use when she's confused, and has never had anyone get offended about it. :)

[Cecilia]

I like the "lord, lady, laurel"   "knight, dame, patron". "satyr, siren, sidhe". "god, goddess, deity" scheme... It adds what's been missing without changing everything all around.   

[The Golden Touch]

-Huggles Cecilia-

I like those options as well.  Though, patron does not have the 'warrior' quality... It does mean they help support the site though.  But I like Laurel, Patron, Sidhe, and Deity. ^ ^

[Transgirlenstein]

I like the one Cecilia and Golden Touch liked

[Karma]

Yep, me too. I love that layout. ^_^

[Ryven]

Here's a suggestion for perhaps the knight/dame level though it sounds like you already have a lot of good choices.  Deacon

Don't know if it's any good, but thought I'd throw it out since I don't think anyone else has suggested it yet.

[Nadir]

I have a character with that naaaaaame!

[Desan]

I like the "lord, lady, laurel"   "knight, dame, patron". "satyr, siren, sidhe". "god, goddess, deity" scheme... It adds what's been missing without changing everything all around.

I like this one as well.

[Lunaris]

Puuuurfect. I'll be switching over to the third option as soon as its available.

As for the the titles, I've liked Laurel, Guardian, and Sidhe (especially) out of the bunch. To my knowledge, those born as both genders were looked upon highly in Native American (and some others) culture. There might be a few titles you can pluck from that as well.

[Oniya]

Already looked there.  The best terms of the lot were 'Two-Spirit' (Native American) and 'Kinnar' (a term for one of the devas in India) which, while very positive terms, are kind of jarring in conjunction with 'Lord', 'Lady', et. al.

[Trieste]

I like Kinnar, though... Very pretty word. I don't recall what the devas were, but would that be a possibility for Knight/Dame, or a Deity title (instead of just 'Deity', which I find rather bland and which we use as a plural term for the all-of-us already)?

[Valerian]

Deva means something like "shining one" -- it's usually compared to about the level of angel in Christian mythology, but they're really more like nature spirits.  I don't think they're quite deities (as far as I know), but it is a pretty word.

[HairyHeretic]

Something like the Kami?

[Karma]

Kami and youkai are always fun. ^_^

[Lithos]

I like the "lord, lady, laurel"   "knight, dame, patron". "satyr, siren, sidhe". "god, goddess, deity" scheme... It adds what's been missing without changing everything all around.

I agree with this, practical and sounds pretty as well.

[jilorbb]

I prefer liege over laurel because of what daylily said about the meaning of laurel.

[Xillen]

Liege sounds better fitting than Laurel to me. Liege is a pretty wellknown word. Laurel is not in the context it's planning on being used, and much more common as a girl's name.

[Lithos]

Hmm, so "lord, lady, liege", "knight, dame, patron", "satyr, siren, sidhe", "god, goddess, deity"

That rhymes nicely still.

[Transgirlenstein]

What do we need to do to get the new gender tag?

[Bliss]

See here. :)

[Transgirlenstein]

Thank you Bliss!

[Bliss]

You're welcome!

[Doomsday]

Liege and Champion perhaps?

[Caeli]

The titles have already been decided. :-)

[Lilias]

Still, shouldn't there be a third, 'Other' gender option for profiles as well?

[Caeli]

That hasn't been configured yet. For now, those who would like to identify themselves as 'Other' should ask for the Liege tag, if they're comfortable with doing so.

I'm sure Veks will implement it in the future.

[Doomsday]

The titles have already been decided. :-)

I see you guys took my advice. Bravo!

[Vekseid]

I see you guys took my advice. Bravo!

A week before you gave it, even! : p

[Maeven]

Still, shouldn't there be a third, 'Other' gender option for profiles as well?

There's also the option of just not setting a gender at all and relying solely on the Liege tag. 

[Doomsday]

A week before you gave it, even! : p

I am truly magical.

[Lilias]

I am truly magical.

Re-annual HP? :P

[jilorbb]

There's also the option of just not setting a gender at all and relying solely on the Liege tag.

That's what I've done.

[Nadir]

Me too ^_^

[Doomsday]

Re-annual HP? :P

Que?

[HairyHeretic]

Discworld joke. There were reannual grapes that grew the year before they planted, thanks to the high magic field, making them very useful for wines for scrying the future.