Israel / Hamas Conflict in the West Bank

[elone]

The death and destruction goes on in Gaza. Now over 30,000 killed and murdered, most of them  unarmed uninvolved civilians. Israel has split Gaza in two with a new road. Barriers and no-go zones are being built People are starving because they can not get food or drinkable water. Prisoners are threatened and tortured. In case you missed it, there is this as well at the Embassy of Israel. Biden doing nothing! A bunch of lip service as he sends weapons.

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/i-will-no-longer-be-complicit-in-genocide-us-solider-dies-of-self-immolation-in-protest-of-war-on-gaza/

[Chulanowa]

Israel has withdrawn from its (second) seige, assault, and occupation of al-Shifa hospital. The images, testimonials, and footage coming out are... Something. The hospital is completely ruined, Israel set fire to several wings of it before withdrawing, and there are just... a fucking lot of bodies. 


It has also conducted an airstrike on World Central Kitchen workers, with confirmed deaths including British, Polish, and Australian volunteers, as well as indications of Canadian, Irish and American victims (as well as Palestinians, of course.) 

Israel also bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus today, so that's fun.

Oh and also it bombed a UN patrol in southern Lebanon two days ago.

[Beorning]

It has also conducted an airstrike on World Central Kitchen workers, with confirmed deaths including British, Polish, and Australian volunteers, as well as indications of Canadian, Irish and American victims (as well as Palestinians, of course.)

This is making the news over here (for obvious reasons).

The IDF and Netanyahu himself have issued statements promising a "thorough and transparent" investigation.

... to be honest, I'll be surprised if the result of the investigation will be anything other than "This was an honest mistake, these things happen during wartime, we're sorry!".

Seriously, Russia might want to take some notes here. Instead of denying that they are bombing Ukrainian civilians, they could simply claim that these instances were mistakes and will be investigated. Apparently, it's enough to keep being treated as a civilized, trustworthy state by the international community... *snickers*

[midnightblack]

Israel also bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus today, so that's fun.

Iranian officers neck-deep in the Middle East's turmoil, supporters of totalitarian regimes, terrorist groups and Islamic radicalism that have nothing to do with the XXIst century getting blown to dust? Beggars belief. I'm surprised no one has accused Israel yet of killing half the known Universe.

[Chulanowa]

The first story was that it was a "roadside bomb from Hamas!" because of course it would be. Problem is, images show that the strike went through the roofs of the cars.

Multiple strikes. Against three vehicles. From a drone giving chase.

Netanyahu has come out today saying it was a "mistake" of course, but since World Center Kitchen has been coordinating its movements with the IDF this whole time, and the automobiles had "WORLD CENTER KITCHEN" on the roofs, this seems unlikely.

Iranian officers neck-deep in the Middle East's turmoil, supporters of totalitarian regimes, terrorist groups and Islamic radicalism that have nothing to do with the XXIst century getting blown to dust? Beggars belief. I'm surprised no one has accused Israel yet of killing half the known Universe.

Maybe I'm crazy but I think bombing embassies is a bad thing.

[midnightblack]

Maybe I'm crazy but I think bombing embassies is a bad thing.

It is of course very well-known among scholars that diplomatic buildings are hallowed grounds where bad men are not allowed and bad things never happen. For example, something as monstrous as the murder and dismemberment of a critic of a certain authoritarian regime would clearly never happen in a consular building. Now, regarding the situation here, clearly the officers in question were on vacation and enjoying sunny Damascus. There is no conceivable way in which they could have been coordinating against Israel with like-minded maniacs across a handful of terrorist proxies. Very few ideas are more absurd; maybe the idea of terrorists hiding in hospitals and using civilians as human shields or, heavens forbid, Israel defending itself and its people against these lunatics.

In regard to the all pervasive fear of escalation, while I could very well be completely wrong, I believe Iran's decisive response will range somewhere between sitting on their hands and smuggling a couple more firecrackers for the Houthis to pop across the Gulf of Aden. With the overall effect of some backwater news television in East Europe starting a local panic over the possibility of tea-leaf shipments being delayed to Great Britain as a result.

[Chulanowa]

It is of course very well-known among scholars that diplomatic buildings are hallowed grounds where bad men are not allowed and bad things never happen. For example, something as monstrous as the murder and dismemberment of a critic of a certain authoritarian regime would clearly never happen in a consular building. Now, regarding the situation here, clearly the officers in question were on vacation and enjoying sunny Damascus. There is no conceivable way in which they could have been coordinating against Israel with like-minded maniacs across a handful of terrorist proxies. Very few ideas are more absurd; maybe the idea of terrorists hiding in hospitals and using civilians as human shields or, heavens forbid, Israel defending itself and its people against these lunatics.

I realize that you're having a moment here, but really? Your vibes don't supersede international law. You don't get to bomb embassies, even if you think there are people you don't like standing in the building. Imagine if that were the standard, fucking christ.

I believe Iran's decisive response will range somewhere between sitting on their hands and smuggling a couple more firecrackers for the Houthis to pop across the Gulf of Aden

Yeah probably. Khamenei's gonna wave his finger at the sky and scold it for letting the missiles fly, then he'll take a nap and get back to watching Farsi-dubbed episodes of Matlock or whatever he does. 

'Course, taking the lack of a violent response as being permission is what rapists do, so I'm not at all surprised to see that outlook from a Zionist posting on E. 

[Beorning]

The embassy bombing is something I'd really like to read around some more. I do think that diplomatic facilities and personnel are protected by international law...

The attack on the convoy does look very, very bad. I don't think Israel can claim it was a mistake, as the whole convoy was clearly marked *and* the route has been coordinated with the Israeli government beforehand. So, either it was a premeditated attack... or a huge screw-up. Which, obviously, won't be punished.

Even if it was a screw-up... the problem is, IDF has a long history of such screw-ups. At some point, screw-ups become unofficial policy.

[WhatLiesAbove]

In response to the convoy attack in Lebanon, the UN is investigating and Israel has denied any actions whatsoever. The only reports that is from Israel is from the terrorist organization Hezbollah.

As for the attack in Damascus, I'm of two minds. Yes, attacking a consular building is bad. Yet there is also the point that the seven people who were killed were all guilty of planning attacks against Israel and the US, and were reportedly planning more attacks. The argument could be made that it was preemptive defensive move.

'Course, taking the lack of a violent response as being permission is what rapists do, so I'm not at all surprised to see that outlook from a Zionist posting on E.

I'm going to take a big issue with this comment. Throughout social media...and TikTok is a huge place for this...the word "Zionist" is being considered something akin to being a member of the KKK or the Westboro Baptist Church. For some reason people don't seem to believe that you can be a Zionist and still have an issue with what's happening in Gaza. The difference is, I (rightly so) think that its the fault of Hamas over Israel. 

I would love for someone who thinks Zionism is bad to actually come forward and tell the definition of Zionism. Nobody I've talked to seems to want to give a definition, except that it's "bad" and "supports genocide". According to the ADL, Zionism is as follows:

" Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel."


This was all pointed out to make a point. Yes, the conflict in Gaza is much more nuanced and longer than the war that has been going on since October 7th. However, it's also way longer than the nearly 80-years that Israel has been a state. The conflict is THOUSANDS of years old, and Jews from all over hold more than just religious ties to the region. Jewish people are indigenous to the area that was once called "Judea", and is recognized in Zionism by the fact that we came from the area that is known as Mount Zion.

I'm not going to engage in any arguments about the current conflict, because it always breaks down to "back in 1948...". Lets talk about how things really happened...with Roman occupation, the Jewish revolt of that occupation, the ouster of Jews from the region, and then the migration and invasion of the Byzantine Empire afterwards. Until people are ready to acknowledge THAT bit of history, everything else is just what came after.

So please, stop throwing around "Zionist" like it's a bad word. It smacks of underlying anti-semitism. For the record, I am not NOT NOT accusing anyone of anti-semitism. I'm merely trying to educate people on what is heard when we as Jews hear someone flinging around Zionist and comparing it to rape.

[elone]

Zionism is equated with supremacism and has been seen by many to be  white privilege over native peoples.

" Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel."

Unfortunately, the ADL makes little or no distinction between the people who already lived there and the millions of jews who came from abroad to colonize Israel. Therein lies the problem. White Ashkenazi jews have dominated the place and continue to take more and more land and resources while advocating an apartheid state. If all the Palestinians went away, Zionists would be happy. Zionism is a 20th century phenomena in response to anti-semitism in Europe. The calendar does not give specific rights to the land over a people who have been there for thousands of years, Christians, and Moslems and others. I guess it should be called Canaan. Israel existed as a land long before a jew was even born. Might makes right is the credo of Zionists, and war is the inevitable answer to all problems that are not given to the Zionist. 

A different perspective, albeit Al Jazerra, but written by a jew.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/1/9/the-zionist-fallacy-of-jewish-supremacy

[elone]

I'm not going to engage in any arguments about the current conflict, because it always breaks down to "back in 1948...". Lets talk about how things really happened...with Roman occupation, the Jewish revolt of that occupation, the ouster of Jews from the region, and then the migration and invasion of the Byzantine Empire afterwards. Until people are ready to acknowledge THAT bit of history, everything else is just what came after.

I think that 1948 is more relevant than ignoring what was done in the name of Zionism. Going back thousands of years to try to establish your bona fides is just wrong. Read about 1948 and the expulsion of over 750,000 Palestinians and the total erasure of their villages. Zionist values?

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/the-deir-yassin-massacre-reminds-us-every-zionist-accusation-is-a-confession/

[WhatLiesAbove]

I think that 1948 is more relevant than ignoring what was done in the name of Zionism. Going back thousands of years to try to establish your bona fides is just wrong. Read about 1948 and the expulsion of over 750,000 Palestinians and the total erasure of their villages. Zionist values?

How is it more relevant? History of the region didn't begin then. It's the oldest area in the world, and I would ask that you try to look up relevant history, and not base opinions on activist pages like Mondoweiss...which by just a cursory look doesn't even acknowledge that a terrorist attack occurred on October 7th. Fights between Arabs and Jews in Israel were happening well before the creation of the State. So when do you think would be a good time to discuss the origins that we can both agree on? 1917? 1881?

Prior to 1948 there were over half a million Jews living in the region. Of that, about a fifth lived in Jerusalem. During the time of the Byzantines and then Ottomans (unless thats too far back) they were second class citizens, not being able to hold lands, and were often killed just for being Jewish.

Unfortunately, the ADL makes little or no distinction between the people who already lived there and the millions of jews who came from abroad to colonize Israel. Therein lies the problem. White Ashkenazi jews have dominated the place and continue to take more and more land and resources while advocating an apartheid state

The only people who really make a distinction between Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews are people who don't fully understand Judaism. If we are going to break it down by "type of Jew", then maybe you can get up in arms with the fact that Sephardic Jews are Jews that originated in Spain and were expelled for being Jewish. The simple fact is, the ADL...along with the Oxford Dictionary, the Merriam Webster Dictionary, and Zionists ourselves...KNOW that the term was around long before  Herzl made a movement out of it.

If all the Palestinians went away, Zionists would be happy. Zionism is a 20th century phenomena in response to anti-semitism in Europe.

This right here is pretty much proving my point. I don't know a single Zionist (and I know quite a few) who want the Palestinians to go away. With the military capacity that Israel has (and before you go off on a tangent about aid to Israel, know that they have invented and massed produced arms that other countries desire), don't you think it would be possible to make them all go away?



The point of the matter is that this goes WELL beyond 1948, but nobody wants to talk about THAT part of history. And while words may change, I will not stand by and let anti-semites try and usurp the phrase or the movement to serve some other purpose.

Unfortunately, the ADL makes little or no distinction between the people who already lived there and the millions of jews who came from abroad to colonize Israel.

One last thing about THIS little comment that made me have to take several breaths...

Millions of Jews didn't "come abroad to colonize Israel". I'm sure it's easy to brush over the Holocaust, but the fact is that at the end of the war, the world powers didn't know WHAT to do with Jews. And so they shipped millions of them over there, fresh from one hell and into another. So please, don't try and push the narrative that Jews somehow were eager to come to a desert to begin colonizing.

As for "Might Makes Right"? We can look at al-Aqsa Mosque and what's beneath it to see who truly thinks that way.


For the record, you can respond or not. However, I won't be making any more comments on this thread. I've made my point. I don't know if you are Jewish or not, nor is it any of my business. However, when a person tells you that something is racially or religiously offensive or underhandedly so, I don't think the person who said it get to be the deciding factor.

[elone]

How is it more relevant? History of the region didn't begin then. It's the oldest area in the world, and I would ask that you try to look up relevant history, and not base opinions on activist pages like Mondoweiss...which by just a cursory look doesn't even acknowledge that a terrorist attack occurred on October 7th.

First of all, Mondoweiss, absolutely does mention the attack on October 7. Perhaps you should actually read it rather than take a cursory look. It is also not the oldest are of the world. Humans began in lower Africa millions of years prior  to people in the Palestinian area. There were indigenous peoples there long before there was even the hint of a jew being born.

I don't know a single Zionist (and I know quite a few) who want the Palestinians to go away.

Try the current leadership of the state of Israel for starters. Then go to the pages and comments of the Times of Israel and you might learn something about how Zionists want the Palestinians gone. Send them to the other Arab countries is what one will usually see, that is when Knesset members are not advocating for nuking Gaza. Expelling over 750,000 at the onset of the state of Israel is another example, along with the words of Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir and other Prime ministers over the years. Might does not mean right, and one can never kill and idea.

Prior to 1948 there were over half a million Jews living in the region. Of that, about a fifth lived in Jerusalem. During the time of the Byzantines and then Ottomans (unless thats too far back) they were second class citizens, not being able to hold lands, and were often killed just for being Jewish. 

Aside from invoking the hasbara of the state, here are some statistics. As you will see, the jewish population has varied over the years. 1948 is not a starting point.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1067093/israel-palestine-population-religion-historical/

For the record, you can respond or not. However, I won't be making any more comments on this thread. I've made my point. I don't know if you are Jewish or not, nor is it any of my business. However, when a person tells you that something is racially or religiously offensive or underhandedly so, I don't think the person who said it get to be the deciding factor.

I am commenting because besides invoking the holocaust and anti-semitism, you are just flat out wrong. What you have said are just the talking points of the government of Israel, far from reality. Are we supposed to believe a government that relies on lying, distorting facts and twisting legalities. This is a government who believes in killing without discrimination all over the world.

Nothing said was racially offensive or religiously offensive. If so, my apologies. One should not put such labels on people indiscriminately. Your opinions are not anyone's idea of a deciding factor.

[midnightblack]

In regard to the all pervasive fear of escalation, while I could very well be completely wrong, I believe Iran's decisive response will range somewhere between sitting on their hands and smuggling a couple more firecrackers for the Houthis to pop across the Gulf of Aden. With the overall effect of some backwater news television in East Europe starting a local panic over the possibility of tea-leaf shipments being delayed to Great Britain as a result.

Not sure exactly how well that ended up holding. For one hand

Israel intercepts missiles as Iran launches wave of retaliatory strikes

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/13/middleeast/iran-drones-attack-israel-intl-latam/index.html

but then again, it appears most of these were intercepted by Israel and their allies, while those that did strike haven't achieved anything of significance. The Iranians don't seem to have any interest in pursuing the matter, stating that

The case can be considered closed

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/risks-of-wider-conflict-grow-as-israel-weighs-response-to-iran-s-attack

but it appears Israel has decided to strike back.