What's in the News 3.0

[GloomCookie]

By request, new start to the thread from 2.0.

Please be civil.

[Norwegian One]

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2023/09/19/pressure-grows-on-solberg-to-resign/

I guess it says a little about how (relatively) tame Norwegian politics are compared to other countries in the world, but the big news here is the possible inside trading of the former Prime Minister's husband, especially since it was revealed right after a local election which some commentators say could have swayed the election if it had been revealed earlier.

There's been several similar cases in the last year, and Solberg vas been very critical towards other politicians from other parties, so this is not an enviable position for her.

[Missy]

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2023/09/19/pressure-grows-on-solberg-to-resign/

I guess it says a little about how (relatively) tame Norwegian politics are compared to other countries in the world, but the big news here is the possible inside trading of the former Prime Minister's husband, especially since it was revealed right after a local election which some commentators say could have swayed the election if it had been revealed earlier.

There's been several similar cases in the last year, and Solberg vas been very critical towards other politicians from other parties, so this is not an enviable position for her.

gee and all the stuff i wouldn't think about if I were only Norwegian.

In any case though while I don't disagree with the line of thinking of politicians benefitting from the influence of their position this way, I wonder how far such a line of thought could go, I mean should i be banned from stock trading if I'm siblings to a politician? what about cousins or even just merely friends with no blood relation? Again I'm against insider trading as it naturally provides an unfair advantage and well what if I'm a non-insider buyer to something someone's selling off because they know it's about to drop? but then ultimately, to what extent does the assessment of personal loyalties lie? I mean if I can talk about my job in politics over the dinner table with my spouse then what's to stop the gossip to all my relatives and friends? Seems like an interesting question.

[Beorning]

Speaking of insider trading and related ethically-questionable activities: not too long ago, the current Polish Prime Minister was revealed to have invested (a lot) in anti-inflation bonds. It happened at the time when experts started warning that the inflation might be on the rise in Poland... The government denied it fervently. At the same time, the PM invested into those bonds... bonds that would give him a lot of revenue in case the inflation did rise. And you know what? It did rise. Heavily, in fact.

There's something wrong in this picture...

By the way - here's another "cheerful" fresh bit of news from Poland:

https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/09/21/government-to-show-recording-in-cinemas-before-screening-of-anti-polish-migrant-film/


Basically: the internationally-known Polish director, Agnieszka Holland, made a movie about the ongoing migrant crisis at Polish - Belarusian border. The film was received very well at recent Cannes film festival.

Polish government doesn't like this movie, as it shows the human right abuses that are happening at the border. So, since a few weeks ago, they issue condemnations, claim the movie is "anti-Polish" and liken it Nazi propaganda. The hate campaign against the movie is *massive*. Now, the government revealed they will be trying to force small cinemas to... show a "special clip" before every screening of Holland's movie. A clip aimed to debunk the "lies" in her film...

Hello, state censorship!!!! Welcome back after 30+ years, we missed you!!!  >:(  >:(  >:(

[Missy]

Elevating the party to the level of being 'the state', you could say it sounds a little fascist, or that might actually be something fascists have done even.

[Al Terego]

Elevating the party to the level of being 'the state', you could say it sounds a little fascist, or that might actually be something fascists have done even.

Authoritarianism is seen both on the right and on the left.

[Beorning]

Elevating the party to the level of being 'the state', you could say it sounds a little fascist, or that might actually be something fascists have done even.

Well, it's the actual national government that wants to force the cinemas to precede every screening of Green Border with a propaganda clip. To inform the viewers that the movie they are going to be watching is full of lies etc. What else do you call it than state-level attempt at censorship?

Anyway... this government-level hate campaign against a movie, its director and anyone who liked, is utterly disgusting. And scary. The PiS leader Kaczyński himself gave a speech today - and he openly stated that everyone who doesn't condemn the movie is "a member of Putin's army". Can you believe it? They are basically saying: if you don't condemn this movie, you're a traitor to Poland!

I wish I could say we'd be voting this people out of office in 3 weeks time... but the polls show that there's a significant chance that PiS might win these elections. I don't understand it... are my fellow Polish citizens so freaking dumb? They *want* this kind of government???

It's all so hard to swallow...

BTW. The hate campaign against this movie is so intense that Agnieszka Holland had to *hire bodyguards for 24/7 protection*. Poland under PiS, people!  >:(

[Missy]

Well, it's the actual national government that wants to force the cinemas to precede every screening of Green Border with a propaganda clip. To inform the viewers that the movie they are going to be watching is full of lies etc. What else do you call it than state-level attempt at censorship?

Anyway... this government-level hate campaign against a movie, its director and anyone who liked, is utterly disgusting. And scary. The PiS leader Kaczyński himself gave a speech today - and he openly stated that everyone who doesn't condemn the movie is "a member of Putin's army". Can you believe it? They are basically saying: if you don't condemn this movie, you're a traitor to Poland!

I wish I could say we'd be voting this people out of office in 3 weeks time... but the polls show that there's a significant chance that PiS might win these elections. I don't understand it... are my fellow Polish citizens so freaking dumb? They *want* this kind of government???

It's all so hard to swallow...

BTW. The hate campaign against this movie is so intense that Agnieszka Holland had to *hire bodyguards for 24/7 protection*. Poland under PiS, people!  >:(

from the article:

A senior PiS lawmaker, Radosław Fogiel, told broadcaster TVP today that “it is sad” that opposition figures have welcomed Green Border as an “anti-PiS film” whereas it is in fact “anti-Polish”.

Taking criticism of your party as criticism of your nation is a bit, interesting

[Missy]

Authoritarianism is seen both on the right and on the left.

well you've lost me, PiS is a rightist political organization, I don't know what they have to do with the left?

[Al Terego]

well you've lost me, PiS is a rightist political organization, I don't know what they have to do with the left?

I was responding to the following:

Elevating the party to the level of being 'the state', you could say it sounds a little fascist, or that might actually be something fascists have done even.

Marxism-Leninism et alia have also equated the party with the state.

That was a general observation, unrelated to Poland or PiS.

[Oniya]

I was responding to the following:

Marxism-Leninism et alia have also equated the party with the state.

That was a general observation, unrelated to Poland or PiS.

Considering Beorning's concerns about his own country, it seems at best a non sequiter - at worst, 'what-aboutism'.

[Beorning]

Taking criticism of your party as criticism of your nation is a bit, interesting

Oh, obviously. Although this has been a part of PiS rhetoric for years, so no surprise there.

A somewhat more recent - and growing in intensity - development is the way PiS uses "Support your troops!" type of slogans to shut people up and generate hate. You try to cricitise the police for incidents of brutality and acting as the government's private militia? You are an awful person who disrespects the hard-working cops. You criticise the Border Guard and the military for the human rights abuses? You're an ungrateful, unpatriotic traitor! Don't you dare to "disrespect the uniform"!

Considering Beorning's concerns about his own country, it seems at best a non sequiter - at worst, 'what-aboutism'.

Ah, I don't mind. Not to mention, trying to categorize PiS according to traditional political terms is headache. They are socially conservative, bigoted and nationalistic... on the other hand, they are economically quite leftist, with all of their social benefits spending and nationalizing the industry. Overall, they are cynical, populist and heavily authoritarian...

[Missy]

Oh, obviously. Although this has been a part of PiS rhetoric for years, so no surprise there.

A somewhat more recent - and growing in intensity - development is the way PiS uses "Support your troops!" type of slogans to shut people up and generate hate. You try to cricitise the police for incidents of brutality and acting as the government's private militia? You are an awful person who disrespects the hard-working cops. You criticise the Border Guard and the military for the human rights abuses? You're an ungrateful, unpatriotic traitor! Don't you dare to "disrespect the uniform"!

Ah, I don't mind. Not to mention, trying to categorize PiS according to traditional political terms is headache. They are socially conservative, bigoted and nationalistic... on the other hand, they are economically quite leftist, with all of their social benefits spending and nationalizing the industry. Overall, they are cynical, populist and heavily authoritarian...

I'm not as familiar with the Italian Fascisti as I am with the Nazi's (though I intend to learn about as many authoritarian regimes as I can in time), but I have heard they were given to more left leaning policies. Again, I'm not really sure what and how, I mean Hitler just used the socialist wing of the Nazi party to gain power and ultimately put them out in the cold as soon as they were no longer needed to get him into power, but I have heard from more than one source that Italian Fascism was more leftist.

[ShadowFox89]

 There was no socialist wing of the Nazi party. They had no socialist elements to them. They called themselves national-socialist to muddy the message. Fascism is literally the polar opposite of leftism and any thoughts to the contrary is either not having been taught enough or deliberate BS'ing to muddy the message.

[Oniya]

It's possible to be authoritarian without being fascist.  It's just not possible to be fascist without being authoritarian.

[Chulanowa]

Marxism-Leninism et alia have also equated the party with the state.

That was a general observation, unrelated to Poland or PiS.

Well the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was literally everyone living in the USSR, so there's a fair argument to be made for the party and the polity - and thus the state - being functionally synonymous. (Whether the CPSU effectually represented all of its members can of course be debated.)

Quite a difference from reactionary parties who are extremely elitist about who can be part of their group, and who can be part of the people, and who can be part of the state.

(And for what it's worth; read Engles' "On Authority" - don't worry, it's short) 

Ah, I don't mind. Not to mention, trying to categorize PiS according to traditional political terms is headache. They are socially conservative, bigoted and nationalistic... on the other hand, they are economically quite leftist, with all of their social benefits spending and nationalizing the industry. Overall, they are cynical, populist and heavily authoritarian...

It's... really not that big of a headache. They're a broadly reactionary party, one might even comfortably say fascist or at least proto-fascist. They lean hard into both the ideas of Poland as a "Victim-Nation" and the Revanchist idealism of "Poland as an Empire" - contradictory positions, but reaction doesn't have to make sense. Their social benefits spending is actually pretty standard capitalism; a welfare system is generally recognized by capitalists as a necessary concession to extend the life of capitalism (Hayek's nonsense is broadly regarded as laughable voodoo by most capitalists, regardless of what your libertarian uncle on facebook insists). It can even be another hallmark of reaction, depending on who is receiving benefits and who is excluded. 

Similarly the nationalization of industries is not necessarily a "leftist" action - especially when done by a capitalist state. For a great example consider Mexico, which has a mostly-nationalized fossil fuel industry. Mexico's not remotely socialist. it just has an industry where the state itself is a majority shareholder. This revenue goes towards the state itself, where it is spent on a variety of things, probably the very least of which is the people of Mexico. I imagine the same is true in Poland, with the citizens and residents of Poland barely seeing a grosz out of any of it (In fact much like Mexico, I'd assume a fair chunk of it goes into the bank accounts of well-placed politicians first and foremost...)

[Vekseid]

(And for what it's worth; read Engles' "On Authority" - don't worry, it's short) 

It is utterly mystifying that tankies cite this ignoramus (at the absolute most generous) and expect to be taken seriously. A century and a half of abject failures later and they still go back to it. No growth in interim.

Authoritarianism is the exaltation of some person or concept such that it is its own end. No matter the facts staring you in the face. It is a form of cultural ossification. It can infect nearly any group, with the rejection of critical thinking, self reflection, and criticism.

There is a reason authoritarian governments have had such short lifespans lately.  They are never prepared for the world to come.

[Al Terego]

Well the Communist Party of the Soviet Union was literally everyone living in the USSR

That is patently incorrect.

The party membership has never been over 10% of the USSR adult population, and less than 4% during Stalin's reign.

[Beorning]

It's possible to be authoritarian without being fascist.  It's just not possible to be fascist without being authoritarian.

True.

Personally, I'd yet refrain from calling PiS true fascists... although they are moving in the fascistoid direction. And, for this election, they picked a guy who is an actual neo-fascist as one of their MP candidates.

It's... really not that big of a headache. They're a broadly reactionary party, one might even comfortably say fascist or at least proto-fascist. They lean hard into both the ideas of Poland as a "Victim-Nation" and the Revanchist idealism of "Poland as an Empire" - contradictory positions, but reaction doesn't have to make sense.

While you are right about PiS leaning into the "Victim-Nation", I'd rephrase the second idea as "Poland as the most heroic nation in Europe". And add "Poland as the last bastion of one true morality and way of life".

Their social benefits spending is actually pretty standard capitalism; a welfare system is generally recognized by capitalists as a necessary concession to extend the life of capitalism (Hayek's nonsense is broadly regarded as laughable voodoo by most capitalists, regardless of what your libertarian uncle on facebook insists). It can even be another hallmark of reaction, depending on who is receiving benefits and who is excluded. 

Not sure if I'd agree with that. Social benefits under PiS are simple giveaways - PiS seems unable to execute social projects more complex than "Let's give all families with children a monthly bonus of 500 PLN per child, yay!". Overall, their benefits are designed to appeal to the groups that support PiS: low income families, elderly people etc. They don't help the workforce or anything like it...

Similarly the nationalization of industries is not necessarily a "leftist" action - especially when done by a capitalist state. For a great example consider Mexico, which has a mostly-nationalized fossil fuel industry. Mexico's not remotely socialist. it just has an industry where the state itself is a majority shareholder. This revenue goes towards the state itself, where it is spent on a variety of things, probably the very least of which is the people of Mexico. I imagine the same is true in Poland, with the citizens and residents of Poland barely seeing a grosz out of any of it (In fact much like Mexico, I'd assume a fair chunk of it goes into the bank accounts of well-placed politicians first and foremost...)

That's true. I'm just saying that if we define the rightist economic policies as they are understood in, say, the States, then PiS would be GOP's nightmare.

There is a reason authoritarian governments have had such short lifespans lately.  They are never prepared for the world to come.

Not sure about the short lifespans. Orban's government is still thriving in Hungary. And PiS has been ruling Poland for 8 years now... and they might be getting another 4 years soon.

[Vekseid]

Not sure about the short lifespans. Orban's government is still thriving in Hungary. And PiS has been ruling Poland for 8 years now... and they might be getting another 4 years soon.

I'm not talking about a few years. The Soviet Union collapsed after ~70 years.

Meanwhile the only things that have ever threatened US stability have been authoritarian movements.

[GloomCookie]

Vekseid, are you talking about authoritarian movements within the US or external ones? Just trying to understand.

I know a few times the US has been involved in propping up authoritarian movements, but mostly because it advanced US global policy against communism (though far from the only reason). The CIA got involved in the middle east and South America especially. I would go so far as to say that Cuba wouldn't be a communist nation were it not for US interference with propping up Fulgencio Batista before the Cuban Revolution. And it wasn't just the CIA, given that the US was also involved in 'liberating' Panama because the US wanted to build the Panama Canal and Columbia said no.

[Al Terego]

I know a few times the US has been involved in propping up authoritarian movements, but mostly because it advanced US global policy against communism (though far from the only reason).

Do not forget private commercial interests.  United Fruit company comes to mind.

[Chulanowa]

It is utterly mystifying that tankies cite this ignoramus (at the absolute most generous) and expect to be taken seriously. A century and a half of abject failures later and they still go back to it. No growth in interim.

Authoritarianism is the exaltation of some person or concept such that it is its own end. No matter the facts staring you in the face. It is a form of cultural ossification. It can infect nearly any group, with the rejection of critical thinking, self reflection, and criticism.

There is a reason authoritarian governments have had such short lifespans lately.  They are never prepared for the world to come.

Well I'm not too worried bout "critique" in the form of glib non-sequiturs and offhanded scoffing. 

Personally, I'd yet refrain from calling PiS true fascists... although they are moving in the fascistoid direction. And, for this election, they picked a guy who is an actual neo-fascist as one of their MP candidates.

I mean my rule of thumb is "If your party is running fascists, it's a fascist party." So...?

While you are right about PiS leaning into the "Victim-Nation", I'd rephrase the second idea as "Poland as the most heroic nation in Europe". And add "Poland as the last bastion of one true morality and way of life".

That's bog-standard nationalism, I'm meaning more towards their veneration of  the second republic and Józef Piłsudski. That whole vibe of "Make Poland Greater Poland Again"

Not sure if I'd agree with that. Social benefits under PiS are simple giveaways - PiS seems unable to execute social projects more complex than "Let's give all families with children a monthly bonus of 500 PLN per child, yay!". Overall, their benefits are designed to appeal to the groups that support PiS: low income families, elderly people etc. They don't help the workforce or anything like it...

I mean, if that's all it is, that seems like a pretty solid policy. Shame it's attached to such cretins though.

That's true. I'm just saying that if we define the rightist economic policies as they are understood in, say, the States, then PiS would be GOP's nightmare.

The political parties of the United States aren't a useful basis of comparison for anywhere, I don't think. Both of the major ones are fuckin bonkers

Not sure about the short lifespans. Orban's government is still thriving in Hungary. And PiS has been ruling Poland for 8 years now... and they might be getting another 4 years soon.

It's a sort of special pleading. Sort of like the whole thing where "China's Collapse Is Imminent!" has been a claim made for the last seventy years. Maybe eventually it will and all the people who have been wrong all this time will go "AHA SEE I TOLD YOU SO!"

[Al Terego]

An ABC/WashingtonPost poll shows Trump edging out Biden 51-42 in head-to-head matchup:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/troubles-biden-age-reelection-campaign-poll/story?id=103436611

[Beorning]

I mean my rule of thumb is "If your party is running fascists, it's a fascist party." So...?

It's not necessarily that simple... Still, if a party endorses a politician who is an obvious neo-fascist, then it's definitely telling, yes. Especially if, over the years, the same party has shown indirect support toward far right movements.

That's bog-standard nationalism, I'm meaning more towards their veneration of  the second republic and Józef Piłsudski. That whole vibe of "Make Poland Greater Poland Again"

To be fair, some degree of veneration of 2nd Republic and Piłsudski is quite common in Poland. Which is a problem, IMHO. It'd do us good as a nation to look at this (quite ugly) period objectively.

I mean, if that's all it is, that seems like a pretty solid policy. Shame it's attached to such cretins though.

Not that a solid policy, to be honest. Yes, social benefits help poor families, but the way PiS implented this program is too blunt. The way they do it, every family with children gets benefits - even very rich families. There should be some limits on that, as it would both save some money (the program is insanely costly) and allow to give bigger benefits to families that actually need them. But, as I said, PiS is unable to handle any complex programs...

Not to mention, that program was initially meant to increase Poland's abysmal birth rates. But it didn't achieve that goal at all. In fact, under PiS, the birth rates are going down more and more...

An ABC/WashingtonPost poll shows Trump edging out Biden 51-42 in head-to-head matchup:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/troubles-biden-age-reelection-campaign-poll/story?id=103436611

Ooooooh crap.  :-(