Blizzcon: 2011

[Callie Del Noire]

Kyriee (my pali on Silvermoon) is doing pretty good as a group tank. Against bosses with my guild's usual other tanks I can hold agroo pretty good against solo targets, but in boss management we both have to watch things. The warrior I usually tank with does a good job but occasionally we can get some loss to him if he hits well.

Druids tend, from what I've seen, to be harder hitting but need it to make up for less agroo intensive strikes. IE.. they have to hit to get agro.

DKs, they are a bit squishy on occassion but I think that is as much from the fact that their talents make them self-healing to an extent and if a healer doesn't watch them boss smashes can really hurt them quickly.

[Chris Brady]

They've released the new Talent changes on the main site.  I don't care much for them.  That's Diablo's talent system, why are they forcing it into WoW?

Oh well, I'll get use to it as I always have.

[TheGlyphstone]

D3's talent system, you mean? It doesn't look or act anything like D2, and that's the Diablo I'm most familiar with.

[Saerrael]

They've released the new Talent changes on the main site.  I don't care much for them.  That's Diablo's talent system, why are they forcing it into WoW?

Oh well, I'll get use to it as I always have.

How I've understood it is to go with the talent-trees to get rid of the cookie cut builds we have today. I applaud that, to be honest. But I'm sure we'll see certain builds over and over again...

[Shjade]

Yeah, it'll just be new cookie cutter builds that everyone follows in the new system depending on whether you're raiding/pvping/tanking/healing/etc.

[Chris Brady]

From what I see the lack of choices will reinforce cookie cutter builds.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's illogical though, because the plethora of choices in previous talent systems did nothing to stop cookie cutter builds.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which might affect the end result is how easily you can 'respec' your talents - it's supposed to be something you can do in the field in a few seconds. The only purpose for class trainers is to change your spec. There will always be a talent that's mathematically superior to another for a given situation, that's just how math works - but with the ability to change your talent choices on the fly, it gives them more flexibility to design fights where you'll have to in order to get maximum utility.

Just to pick an example completely at random, the first-tier Mage talents: Ring of Frost (much as it is now), Ice Ward (defensive triggered freeze Aoe), or Frostbite (ranged Silence/Freeze). In a PvE raid fight, whether Ring of Frost or Frostbite is superior depends on the mechanics; are there adds to be controlled, or does the boss have a dangerous interruptable attack to silence? One tier down, Blazing Speed could be crucial for a fight heavy on snares/stuns, moreso than Ice Barrier's consistent absorption for fights you can stand in place on.


TLDr: Yes, there will be 'cookie cutter' builds - but Blizzard is giving us the tools to bring our cookie stencils with us to the raid, making talents far more dynamic then they've ever been in the history of the game.

[Sel Nar]

So, basically, WoW is allowing you to do what Guild Wars has been doing for nearly 6 years, only you have to go to a trainer (and possibly pay in-game money) to respec, instead of just shuffling some skills or stat layouts with a few clicks on a character screen?

[Josietta]

Its been that way for the past year that i've been playing. You go to your training, pay gold, and they reset all your talents.

[Saerrael]

That's illogical though, because the plethora of choices in previous talent systems did nothing to stop cookie cutter builds.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which might affect the end result is how easily you can 'respec' your talents - it's supposed to be something you can do in the field in a few seconds. The only purpose for class trainers is to change your spec. There will always be a talent that's mathematically superior to another for a given situation, that's just how math works - but with the ability to change your talent choices on the fly, it gives them more flexibility to design fights where you'll have to in order to get maximum utility.

Just to pick an example completely at random, the first-tier Mage talents: Ring of Frost (much as it is now), Ice Ward (defensive triggered freeze Aoe), or Frostbite (ranged Silence/Freeze). In a PvE raid fight, whether Ring of Frost or Frostbite is superior depends on the mechanics; are there adds to be controlled, or does the boss have a dangerous interruptable attack to silence? One tier down, Blazing Speed could be crucial for a fight heavy on snares/stuns, moreso than Ice Barrier's consistent absorption for fights you can stand in place on.


TLDr: Yes, there will be 'cookie cutter' builds - but Blizzard is giving us the tools to bring our cookie stencils with us to the raid, making talents far more dynamic then they've ever been in the history of the game.

I know it is illogical. I wasn't stating that I thought it would make cookiecut a thing of the past, but that Blizz thinks it will help.

Also. Did you try this for a Holy PvE Paladin? Out of all the different classes and specs I play, I'd say Holy PvE Paladin is basically not getting anything positive out of this.

And, yes, I did see these specializations are 99% PvP >.>

[TheGlyphstone]

I know it is illogical. I wasn't stating that I thought it would make cookiecut a thing of the past, but that Blizz thinks it will help.

Also. Did you try this for a Holy PvE Paladin? Out of all the different classes and specs I play, I'd say Holy PvE Paladin is basically not getting anything positive out of this.

And, yes, I did see these specializations are 99% PvP >.>

I was actually talking to Chris Brady there, not you. I found the comment that this would reinforce cookie cutter builds to be illogical.

[Saerrael]

I was actually talking to Chris Brady there, not you. I found the comment that this would reinforce cookie cutter builds to be illogical.

Hmmz... Sorry, but I don't agree. Players will pick what aids their spec/ the situation they use that spec in the most.

*shrugs and smiles* I don't' think Blizz will ever get this game 'balanced' and versatile at the same time. Doesn't mean I don't like playing it, though.

[TheGlyphstone]

Hmmz... Sorry, but I don't agree. Players will pick what aids their spec/ the situation they use that spec in the most.

Which is what I was saying. ??? 'Cookie cutter builds' are fire-and-forget...you look at the internet, go to the class trainer, respec to the 'best' talent build, and never touch it again unless a patch comes out that changes it. Here, all the relevant talents, attacks, and passive buffs will be baked into your spec itself, and talents will only be tweaks for specific abilities - you'll likely be changing your talent builds every fight, to pick the best bonuses for that specific situation.

[Saerrael]

Which is what I was saying. ??? 'Cookie cutter builds' are fire-and-forget...you look at the internet, go to the class trainer, respec to the 'best' talent build, and never touch it again unless a patch comes out that changes it. Here, all the relevant talents, attacks, and passive buffs will be baked into your spec itself, and talents will only be tweaks for specific abilities - you'll likely be changing your talent builds every fight, to pick the best bonuses for that specific situation.

...there aren't that many variations to specialise towards, though. Which was what I meant. *shrugs*

[Zakharra]

Also. Did you try this for a Holy PvE Paladin? Out of all the different classes and specs I play, I'd say Holy PvE Paladin is basically not getting anything positive out of this.

What Blizz did to Paladins in Cata made me want to cry. It's damned near ruined the class for me and she's a lot more squishy than she used to be (Ret/Holy). My Death Knight and warrior can take blows and fight more opponents than she can and live.