Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?

[Aethereal]

My son, at age 6 has been spanked twice in his life by me. Both times were nothing more than a single swat to get his attention.

When I talk of spanking, I'm not speaking of, say, a loose swat in the general direction of the child's hand and telling them "Hey, fingers!" as they are about to put their hand someone they shouldn't, or similar. I am speaking of spanking as deliberate form of punishment that (while it may not leave marks) is supposed to be painful and/or humiliating. The "come here now and stay still so I can hit you" kind - that's what I am referring to when I use the word "spanking," and that is what I would never condone. *That* is abuse, and something I'd have never forgiven, if my parents ever subjected me to it.

(Just so we're on the same page.)

...for said child to know they screwed up.

Either that, or they learn that beating people when they do something they don't like is OK, or they will resent their parents.
         I've sat my mother down - as a 21+ adult - and told her what she did wrong in raising me (mostly in terms of her yelling and/or threatening). If I had a parent or parents that decided beating me was a child was OK, I'd probably done the same - and if they were still convinced that they did right, you'd not exactly hear me describing the individuals who produced me in too kind terms.

As for kicking, screaming, etc. First off at around six it likely would have done no good against an adult.

No. But eventually, that child will grow up.

[Iniquitous]

I am probably going to regret posting here... but!

My parents spanked me - mostly my father, he was the disciplinarian in the family, and when I say spanked I mean the take off the belt, fold it and spank that ass spanking. It was reserved as a last resort to get my attention when every other form of punishment they came up with failed.

I will admit that I was a hellion child. I didn’t listen, I didn’t mind. I tried hard to do what I wanted. Grounding me didn’t work... I didn’t mind being forced to stay in my room. Taking away my toys didn’t work... I far preferred reading. Taking away my non-educational books didn’t work... I read the encyclopedias. Not letting me go on field trips with my class, not letting me go to the amusement park with the rest of the family... none of that worked.

What did work? Well, getting my ass spanked with a belt sure got my attention. And, just as a child learns not to touch the hot burner because “OW! That hurt!”, getting my ass spanked hurt and I rather quickly decided I didn’t want that again. And guess what... I can remember my dad saying “This hurts me more than it does you.”

Now, as an adult, I have spanked. I took a different approach than my father did. I made sure I never spanked while I was angry at whatever was done, I made sure to discuss what was done wrong and why the spanking was necessary. And when it was over, I hugged and wiped tears while making sure it was understood why I spanked.

Have I used other means of punishment? You betcha. Taken away toys? Check. Grounded? Check. Taken away privileges? Check. Made to stand in the corner? Check. Much as it was with my parents, spanking was used to get the attention and make it clear that certain behaviors will not be tolerated.

Guess what... I am a normal, functioning adult and so are the spawn that I spanked.

[Aethereal]

        And if you were my parent, I would not have a mother now. You'd be dead to me for assaulting me, the exact same way as a hypothetical "boyfriend" who assaults me and is then all flowers and candy would be dead to me. Simple as that.

        People are allowed their own opinions; I don't have to approve of them. Admittedly, I only have my own person as a standpoint (as to an extent is the case with everyone), and I couldn't, ever, respect a person who assaulted me and afterwards insisted they were right to do so. I also wouldn't not do something because you might beat me up - I'd just resent you for resorting to violence against me. And if you ever you told me "It is not OK to hit another person", I'd know you're just blatantly lying to my face, without blinking an eye.   

      Granted, I didn't really need to be disciplined, as much as I wasn't really rebellious - if I did something it was quietly in some corner and with no actual ill intent. My misdeeds were hence usually just me trying to construct something and making a mess or using something I shouldn't have as components. Or taking my rubber boots off and walking in the mud with socks, because it was interesting to see the water bubbling up through the fabric, or something along those lines. Also getting up during the night. And the thing that actually worked for me was most often just my father (who, mind, is a calm person and kindness himself) just telling me. Calmly. Quietly. And I didn't do it again, since I felt bad.
      As opposed to my mother who tended to get yell-y and taking-things-away-y... In the end, I very quickly just learned to completely shut out her yelling and started to hide things in various places in the house or even outside. And protecting things she was threatening to take away with my body - and you can believe me, if she actually tried to use force, I'd sooner have let her snap all bones in my body than released the thing willingly. I didn't care for pain as long as I had an agenda, but you can believe me I remembered all the people who ever inflicted it on me, and not in a good way.
      Including one of my kindergarten teachers, a woman who frankly should have never had the job. My mother rightfully went full-out mother dragon upon her afterwards.

[Iniquitous]

I’ll be honest, if I had a child who acted out with kicking, screaming, biting and clawing when punished - either by spanking or removing possessions, that child would have ended up in therapy.

You are certainly allowed to have your opinions - we all have them, but constantly reiterating how you’d have reacted is pointless. You are not going to change anyone’s mind with telling us how bad ass you would have been and how that person would be out of your life.

Simple fact. I was spanked, I grew up to be a well adjusted adult. I’ve never been arrested, never been to jail, and I am not violent towards other people. The spawn I have spanked are well adjusted adults. They’ve never been arrested, never been to jail, and are not violent people.

Whether I, and them, are exceptions to the rule is debatable. My brother was spanked as I was, he is well adjusted and a cop. Oh, yeah. I forgot to mention - my father is a retired cop. So, abuse? No. Not even in the least.

[Aethereal]

I’ll be honest, if I had a child who acted out with kicking, screaming, biting and clawing when punished - either by spanking or removing possessions, that child would have ended up in therapy.

Or perhaps it's a natural human reaction to someone, y'know, specifically assaulting you. Self-defense. You can bet having a child who is perfectly calm and well-behaved once before they eyes of professionals who responds to "My mother hit me," whenever someone asks why they behaved that way isn't exactly going to shed favorable light on said mother...
        I don't know why some people keep insisting that actions which'd land you in jail against adults are suddenly perfectly OK as long as it's your own child you enact those actions on.

       For the record, I've passed all psych evaluations - be it for car license, gun license, work-related or other - I've been subjected to with flying colors and actually being remarked as - also by professionals, not just people I know - as one of the calmest, most stable people they've met. I've never been depressed, had anxiety or any kind of other mental issues. Et cetera, et cetera. Heck, I don't even have a speeding ticket to my name, let alone anything else...

       And cops are people and just as capable of abuse than almost any other (and to some vague recollections, perhaps more than average), so it's not really an indicator in and of itself.

[Jag]

I was spanked once that I can remember. I was six and I left the house without telling my parents. I was gone for hours. A park ranger found me walking down the side of the highway. He picked me up and brought me home. I wasn't running away. I just wanted to go for a walk. My mother spanked me. Hard. Didn't leave a mark, but it hurt. Then we talked about it.

Yes. She spanked me out of fear and anger. It was how she was raised.

But from that day on, I never left the house without telling my parents. Not because I was scared of being spanked, though I didn't want that again, but because I realized the severity of the action. Anything could have happened to me. Could the situation have ended the same if my parents just talked to me instead of spanking me and then talking? Probably. But that's not what happened. What happened was that I was spanked and talked to. It was a snap reaction on my mother's part and she regretted it.

But I never did it again.

While I was a hellion as a teenager, things in my house were different by that time compared to when I was six. My father didn't supervise me. My mother had left us, I did the dishes, I did the laundry, I did my homework (most of the time), I had a job...so my father treated me like an adult from the time I was fourteen till I moved out. I have bad blood with my father, but never because of the way he punished me or my brothers.

Unlike me, my brothers were hellions of the lazy kind. They never helped out. They back talked. They treated me and my father like shit.

They were spanked. Often. My father wasn't the talking type. He screamed and spanked. My brothers are very much the opposite of each other. One is very well adjusted, has a good job, a good apartment, nice things, and takes care of himself. The other, well...he's a lazy bum. He's living in my grandmother's basement and leaching off of her. He did that to my father for a long time, then he got kicked out. Moved in with my mother, did the same thing, got kicked out. Now he's with grandma and we're waiting to see how long it lasts.

Could my lazy bum of a brother been affected by the spanking? Maybe. He acts just like our father.

All I can think of is that it boils down to the fact that different people react differently to various types of punishment. My daughter, you take away her Leonardo doll and she straightens right up. To her, that doll being taken away is like being spanked. I see the same look on her face when I take it that I saw on my brothers. Punishment ends there for her. Take that doll and she gets it. She bit another kid once. Granted, it was self defense, but she never did it again once I took that doll and sat her down for a talk.

My cousin, we'll call him L, my aunt took away all his toys, his TV, grounded him, set him in corners, and had talks with him. Those things worked temporarily, but he always went back to doing exactly the same things he had before. It left no lasting effect on him. He didn't learn his lesson. He didn't correct his behavior. My aunt refused to try any other forms of punishment. She sent him to therapy, put him on medications, did everything the doctors told her. Now he's in jail. He robbed a gas station at gun point five years ago.

Maybe if he'd been spanked, he might have learned a lesson or two. But who knows for sure. It might have made him worse. It might not. What it might have done doesn't matter, because it wasn't done. What was done doesn't always matter, because it's done and you can't take it back.

I'm not saying all children should be spanked, because that's not necessary. But if all options have been exhausted, then what do you do next? Do you just let it continue? Do you just let them keep going and thinking it's okay when talking doesn't work?

My opinion is to start with talking. Start with taking away a favorite toy or book or show and talk to them. Time outs. More talking. Have them talk to someone else. Sometimes kids respond better to someone else...but there comes a point when you have to think "What else can I do?"

Child kicks you. You talk to them and explain why it's bad and hurts. Child kicks you again. You take away a toy/book/show/whatever and talk to them again. Child kicks you again. Time out and grounding and more talking. Child kicks you again. Grounding, talk to a doctor, talk to a professional, talk to friends. Child kicks you again. What do you do?

Again, all my opinion based on how I was raised and what I've seen. I've never raised a hand to my child, because I've never needed to and I hope I never do. I do believe spanking is an option. A last one, but still one. I have no reason to justify my beliefs to anyone.

[Aethereal]

            Personally I'm fully confident that if nothing else works, beating won't help, either. At best, it does pretty much nothing, on average, it generates fear, distrust and resentment, at worst, it just teaches the child that "don't hit others" is a big fat lie not even you yourself abide to. 
            Will I realistically be able to do about parents who don't agree? On individual level not really (I may say what I think, agreeing or disagreeing is one's own decision, and whether my personal opinion of you is a notch lower as the result probably hardly matters to a stranger), though I will advocate and support making violence-as-"punishment" an offense that is recognizable by law, if it isn't already (in that specific region).

[Inkidu]

Ah see, I get it, you refuse to even humor anything remotely suggesting that spanking is anything but a life or death situation. Goodness help any friend who gave a friendly dig in the arm, but maybe that's just a guy thing. :|

[Blythe]

I think one of the important things to take into account here is that people have very different views on exactly what constitutes a 'spank.' The definition I use is:

spank1
/spæŋk/
verb
1.
(transitive) to slap or smack with the open hand, esp on the buttocks

For me, spanking is not abusive, but it must conform to the following criteria to avoid being abusive:
* Must be open-handed, should not be done with an implement. Too much potential for leaving marks or causing harm with implements. Should ideally only need to be done once.
* Should not be done publicly. Discipline of this nature should never be public if it can be avoided, otherwise it can turn into humiliation rather than discipline.
* Must include, in some manner, dialogue with the child to explain rationally why the spanking is happening, preferably beforehand when possible. The goal is discipline, not pain or needless punishment.
* Must not leave markings, bruisings, etc.
* Must not be used at the first resort, nor should it be used particularly often. Ideally, spanking is a last resort after other options fail.
* Never on someone else's children. In the case of discipline that requires this sort of corrective measure, it should not come from a stranger.

There are a lot of parents who often cross the line with spanking and turn it into abuse as a way to try to control their child rather than educate, rather than explore other disciplinary methods, but I don't think that spanking, with the above caveats, is abuse.

Edit: Not trying to knock on anyone's opinions with this particular post. This is just my own opinion. >_>

[Jag]

            Personally I'm fully confident that if nothing else works, beating won't help, either.

Then what do you do? Take my kicking example. Do you just suffer years of bruised shins? Do you hope they grow out of it on their own? What happens if they kick someone else, another kid, who doesn't decide to take it?

I would never jump to spanking or yelling first. It's the last option...but it's an option. I also don't threaten to spank. I hate it when parents threaten to spank and count down.

Parents get exhausted, frustrated, and feel like failures when the things they try don't work. Parents are human. Parents do things wrong. Parents make mistakes.

As I said, my mother spanked me once and she regretted it. She was scared for my life. She was scared that I might have run away for some reason. She was hysterical. She hit me. She felt like a monster. I cried and it hurt. Was it the best reaction she could have had? No. But it was the one that happened. I don't fault her for that.

I hate to make references to television, but I loved watching Roseanne growing up. It reminded me a lot of my family in the first few seasons. A family scraping by on very little and making it work. I related to Roseanne's family more than I did the Bundy's or the Cleaver's.

Roseanne reminded me a lot of my mother. Especially in an episode that DJ steals a car. He was a kid and he did something really stupid. Roseanne was terrified over what could have happened to her child and horrified over what he'd done. She spanked him. She regretted it. Her character history says her father was a screamer and a spanker. She said she never wanted to spank...but she did. Yes, it was a scripted show, but it was real. Those things happen. Parents freak out and it happens.

I think what matters is what happens after the spanking. Roseanne, like my mother, came to me and talked to me. She told me about how scared she was for me, how much it hurt her to do what she did, and how she hoped I understood. I did.

My father never spanked me. But he did my brothers. They resented him. While one turned out fine and the other not so much, maybe it wasn't the spanking that caused it. Maybe it was the fact that he never apologized, that he never talked, that he never told them how much it hurt him to do it. Maybe it didn't hurt him to do it. Maybe he was just able to ignore that hurt and just do it.

Whatever the reason...parents are not without flaws. Spankings happen for a variety of reasons.

And you know what? I don't think "don't hit others" is a big fat lie. I still believe in talking it out first, but I have no problem throwing a fist.

I'm not a perfect human. I have depression. I have gender issues. I've been told I'm a sociopath (what a load of BS). I've been told I have no heart. But I've also been told I'm the most caring individual. That I'm a lovely human. That I'm incitement and intelligent. No two people ever see anyone the same way.

Just because I am willing to use my fist (though not on a child), doesn't make me any worse a human than anyone else. Just because I'd be willing to spank if I run out of options or if I fail as a human doesn't make me any worse a human than anyone else.

I should be judged on the reasons for my actions and my actions after that. Not by someone who sees me do something without knowing why. I'm willing to kill for my child. I'm willing to die for my child. If I spank my child, those that know me know that means I reached the end of options and I mean to exhaust that last one before accepting failure. Those who don't know me...well, they are free to see me as a heartless monster.

But whatever. Everyone has an opinion and no one is exactly right. Views can change as we age. I was silly enough to tell myself that I would never tell my child No. Because all I ever heard growing up was No. It's laughable to think that now.

I'm imperfect. So were my parents. So is everyone.

[Aethereal]

Goodness help any friend who gave a friendly dig in the arm, but maybe that's just a guy thing. :|

It was also not with the specific intent of causing you physical pain and/or humiliation in the hopes that you might be too afraid to do something like that again. See above for the kind of spanking I'm referring to.

       FYI, I do controlled combat as an adult and often play-wrestled as a kid. Yes, it meant that occasionally there was a guy half bigger than I sitting on my back. But it was fun, no one was in actual pain or miserable, and all that. Entirely different thing.

[Eranil Morathim]

IO, Jagerin, and Sherlock, I agree with all of you 100%.

Is spanking the first option for punishment? No but it is the last. Is it abuse? Not when done like we have all said.

As I said before, I have been spanked, and I have been abused, I know the difference firsthand. A big one being that abuse is done with malice while spanking is not. An abuser has no care for their victim, save perhaps for not killing them so they can abuse them again later. (That was my experience anyway. Felt that way at least.) Spanking on the other hand is not done with malice, and as was said, is harder and more painful for the parent to do than it is to recieve. That may sound cliched but it is true.

Now, would I ever spank a child other than my own? Not a chance. I grew up in a small town where everybody knew everybody. So us kids were disciplined by whichever adult happened to catch us. But none of us were ever spanked by anyone but our parents, or in my case my grandparents too. That was just a line simply because it is a last resort.

Now obviously I have issues with my stepdad for the abuse. But my mom and I are very close, and were my granparents still alive, I know I would be extremely close with them too. As I said before, I'm glad I was spanked. It may have sucked at the time but it helped make me who I am today. In fact I still on occasion here my grandparents asking if what I'm doing is a good idea.

In short, spanking and abuse are worlds apart. Spanking is a last option, abuse is never an option.

[alextaylor]

Frightening isn't the only option! Talk to them!

I always treat children, no matter how young, as intelligent, sentient individuals. They're capable of logic. In the bird situation, make them feel guilty. Make them empathize with the baby birds. It's possible that they'll yell back at you for bringing it up nicely, but that's a natural response to feeling deeply guilty.

Many people don't realize that when a child acts bad, bratty, naughty, or even cruel, there is some underlying reason. They could feel deeply hurt or neglected. If there's a lot of anger or hate, it usually comes from the household. Sometimes they're ashamed of something.

In cases like that, it doesn't help to spank or yell at them. It might be better just to be a friend.

[Caela]

Staying well away from the spanking discussion and simply answering the OP.

If my child is misbehaving and I don't see it for some reason I would hope that another adult would bring her to me, tell me what she did, and let me handle it in the way that I feel is most appropriate for my child. That being said, there are some exceptions. If she is doing something that is going to result in serious harm to herself, or is actively hurting someone else, then I feel it is entirely appropriate for another adult startle or yell at her before coming to get me in order to stop the dangerous behaviour. Someone else actually laying hands on my child to punish however (getting ahold of her arm to bring her to me is one thing) had best expect those hands to be separated from their body!

[vin26m]

Those bird killing kids are on the road to being serial killers.

I haven't read this thread, but recording and reporting bad behavior is always an option.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from yelling at a kid.  I've done a lot of stupid stuff growing up.  I'm surprised I'm still alive.  I had a GT Performer, a BMX bike used for doing tricks.  I used to ride as fast as I can, then stand on the platforms just under the seat and put my hands out to the sides so it felt like I was flying.  No helmet or other protection.  One time, I did this right into the path of an incoming car.  The car stopped, but I was real close to being a bloody stain on their windshield.  The driver was enraged.  He pulled over and yelled at me from inside his car while his wife tried to calm him down.  I just rode off, but the effect my actions had him along with the potentially disastrous consequences stuck with me, and I stopped doing such risky tricks.

[Far eyes]

Take this as coming from somebody both a bit older and not coming from "the west' growing up i did not get physically punished very often. I can remember once getting slapped and once getting spanked with a belt. I was not a very difficult child as far as acting out goes as an adult looking back i would say i deserved both instances.

I don't think much physical discipline is really needed, what is necessary is establishing that your word goes. To meany parents today want to be there children friend, they don't need another friend they will get plenty. They need you to do your job and be there parent. To that end the threat of and use of physical punishment as a last exclamation mark is useful, but it should be the dot at the end of the line.

As for the kids with the bird nest, children can be cruel and the next wave of psychopaths also need to get born they don't just spring out of the ground fully grown.     

[Iniquitous]

I have a friend that had her son in 2003. She came from a home that never used corporal punishment, her husband came from a home that had no discipline at all. I will never forget the first visit after two years of living too far away to visit.

Her son was a monster. He kicked her, he hit her, he bit her, he pulled her hair, he called her names. She would try to take his toys away as punishment, he’d abuse her till she gave them back. She would try to put him in time out, he would refuse to sit there and she’d have to sit on the floor and physically restrain him - this would earn her kicks, slaps, bites that drew blood and bruised her. And bedtime? It was a two and a half hour ordeal to get him to go to bed - time that she would be further abused for trying to make him stay in his bed.

Her husband would yell at him. He’d yell right back at his dad. There was no control of the child. Matter of fact,  he ruled the house hold. And my friend was of the mind that you can use reason and logic with a child. No. You cannot. Definitely not her child.

I watched for a week as this child held the whole house hostage. Watched my friend sit and cry cause she just couldn’t understand why her child treated her so badly and why she was failing so miserably. When she finally asked me what she should do, I gave one answer.

“Whoop his ass. Show him who is the boss. And keep whooping his ass till he gets it.”

She took my advice and it only took six months for him to realize she was not going to back down. Every time he hit her, she spanked him. Every time he bit her, she spanked him. Every time he threw a fit or refused to do as he was told, she spanked him.

When he finally understood that she was the boss, not him, she relaxed and returned to using other forms of punishment. She doesn’t have to spank him often now - usually as a reminder of who is the boss when he gets lippy with her.

I agree with Far Eyes, a child needs to know who is in control. If the child does not know who is in control. or believes they are in control, you are going to have a monster on your hands.