Censorship on E.

[backlash84]

Yesterday a few comments on a thread about a possible boycott of the latest Mass Effect due to the racist tweets of one of the developers went a little off track into a discussion about racism in general. I personally thought that it was within the range of the topic, but the mods disagreed, which is fine. I was told they'd basically split off our subject, and once they were both separated. I was told, since we hadn't broken any of the sites rules in our discussion, and were still being civil with one another, that once the two threads were separated and people had time to cool off, the thread would be reopened. I figured that was fair, and said I was glad to hear it.

Today however, I have been told that the thread will not be unlocked, and that I was, apparently, "already told why"... which is a plainly false statement. To make sure everyone has all the details, I'll post what messages were exchanged. To keep identities hidden, I'll use the terms "Mod1" "Mod2" and "Me". Since I don't mind what I said being traced back to me.


Me: Why did you block the mass effect post? We are in a sub for political discussion, we were discussing something political. No one was being racist, no one was shouting at other people, just a civil debate.

Mod 1:

Hi Backlash,

The problem is with the development of the discussion. Yes, it was in the PROC, but the Staff are responsible for moderating that area of E as well.

The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic, which was whether or not people should boycott Mass Effect Andromeda , and the conversation was indeed becoming volatile. We want to allow everyone the chance to cool down over the remarks made by Heir, and return to the topic of boycotting the game specifically. A thread lock is often used as a temporary measure under these circumstances; it often helps people cool off and prevents anyone escalating to a point where they would run afoul of Elliquiy's civility rule or other site rules.

Me: If that is the case, then I could start my own thread to continue the discussion we were having, as it is then on topic, and no one has violated any rules, correct?

Mod1: Staff is discussing splitting the thread off to remove any off-topic posts to their own locked area; if we do, that topic will be open, and you'll be able to return to it. :)

Me: Thanks, that would be great. :) I enjoy a good civil debate, and was really enjoying the conversation. If it does get split off, could you let me know?

Mod1: I won't be online soon (got to get some sleep), but if it's split, it should be readily apparent, so no worries about finding the topic again.


I figured that would be the end of it, and I looked forward to continuing the civilized debate we were having. However, I saw today that the thread was still locked, and inquired about it.


Me: I saw you managed to split up the two discussions, which is great. :) The other one still seems to be locked however, is that going to be changed?

Mod2: At present, there are no plans to reopen that thread.

Me: Why is that? It was a political discussion, in the politics section which lists "controversies" right in the title, and didn't break any rules... so I'm unclear as to why it's being censored.

Mod2: That information was already given to you in Mod1's responses, which indicated that the off-topic responses would be removed to their own locked area.

Me:

That's blatantly untrue.

"Staff is discussing splitting the thread off to remove any off-topic posts to their own locked area; if we do, that topic will be open, and you'll be able to return to it. :)"

Says right there, the topic WILL be open. So if it didn't break any rules, and has been separated, it seems the only reason to censor it would be the personal opinions of the mods on this particular subject.
----------------

I have yet to receive a reply.

So, what do you think? Should we be allowed to discuss things in a civilized manner as long as we do not break the rules of the site, or should it be up to the mods to decide what is and isn't acceptable to discuss? I'm interested in your thoughts.

[Vekseid]

You sent your message to "Mod2" an hour before you posted this, to which you 'have yet to receive a reply'.

News flash.

"Mod2" is a human being.

"Mod2" is a volunteer.

"Mod2" is a mother.

She has a responsibility to her family which, it may surprise you, supersedes her role as staff on this site.

It may take time to resolve some issues. You are not paying for a service, the least you can give the staff here is some basic respect for their time. All of us have other things to be doing.



As to the topic at hand - though kind of a moot point as the member deleted their split thread:

I leave it to staff to choose which threads get locked and unlocked, because they are the ones that deal with the fallout. It would be pretty asinine of me to demand that they keep all topics of discussion open and at the same time demand they also keep the resulting discussion under control. I do try to push for less locking and such - mistakes I've made myself in the past - but ultimately it is their call.

I am pretty proud of the fact that my forums were the only major roleplaying communities that could have a frank discussion of the GamerGate drama. Nearly every other major gaming community banned them, from 4chan on down, and most of those that didn't, well...

...but that was only possible here because we have a strong, open, female, feminist presence. Their voice isn't getting drowned out and they don't need to worry if they'll have backup.

That's not really true for the black members here, as a few have stated in PROC proper. And what you see is only the tip of the iceberg.

You don't see the reports that staff gets, or the messages we receive. And not everything gets to us. If something gets heated, staff needs to weigh the fallout versus continuing discussion.

And beyond that, we are all still human beings with our own schedules and priorities.

[backlash84]

You sent your message to "Mod2" an hour before you posted this, to which you 'have yet to receive a reply'.

News flash.

"Mod2" is a human being.

"Mod2" is a volunteer.

"Mod2" is a mother.

She has a responsibility to her family which, it may surprise you, supersedes her role as staff on this site.

It may take time to resolve some issues. You are not paying for a service, the least you can give the staff here is some basic respect for their time. All of us have other things to be doing.



As to the topic at hand - though kind of a moot point as the member deleted their split thread:

I leave it to staff to choose which threads get locked and unlocked, because they are the ones that deal with the fallout. It would be pretty asinine of me to demand that they keep all topics of discussion open and at the same time demand they also keep the resulting discussion under control. I do try to push for less locking and such - mistakes I've made myself in the past - but ultimately it is their call.

I am pretty proud of the fact that my forums were the only major roleplaying communities that could have a frank discussion of the GamerGate drama. Nearly every other major gaming community banned them, from 4chan on down, and most of those that didn't, well...

...but that was only possible here because we have a strong, open, female, feminist presence. Their voice isn't getting drowned out and they don't need to worry if they'll have backup.

That's not really true for the black members here, as a few have stated in PROC proper. And what you see is only the tip of the iceberg.

You don't see the reports that staff gets, or the messages we receive. And not everything gets to us. If something gets heated, staff needs to weigh the fallout versus continuing discussion.

And beyond that, we are all still human beings with our own schedules and priorities.

Umm, I only said I hadn't gotten a reply yet to show that, as of time of writing, that was the end of the conversation, and that I would probably update it as things progressed. You are making quite the assumption with what I said as far as interpreting tone. Also, I was very polite when I messaged you about this issue, it would have been nice if you could have extended the same courtesy to me. If anyone needs to be more respectful here, it's you.


------------------------

As for the thread that was deleted, that is hardly the point. A post was censored without having broken any of the rules, and it is perfectly reasonable for me to ask why that happened.

And personally, I don't need "backup" in a civilized debate. We weren't slinging hate speech, the tone was quite neutral, and I was being very polite with how I phrased my responses, as was everyone else. As for being drowned out, it was a conversation between three people at the time, not exactly an overwhelming about of adversity there for anyone who wanted to comment. If they did, they would have been treated with the same respect I've shown everyone else throughout this whole thing.

Oh, and in case it is forgotten, the posts DID get returned and unlocked, so I was right to contact you in the first place.

[backlash84]

Oh, and it took me three seconds to find a similar post, but with a more left wing slant to it. I guess if you are a moderate who might not agree with the bulk of E, you get censored?

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=257316.0

[Vekseid]

Umm, I only said I hadn't gotten a reply yet to show that, as of time of writing, that was the end of the conversation, and that I would probably update it as things progressed. You are making quite the assumption with what I said as far as interpreting tone. Also, I was very polite when I messaged you about this issue, it would have been nice if you could have extended the same courtesy to me. If anyone needs to be more respectful here, it's you.

I have yet to receive a reply.

So, what do you think? Should we be allowed to discuss things in a civilized manner as long as we do not break the rules of the site, or should it be up to the mods to decide what is and isn't acceptable to discuss? I'm interested in your thoughts.

I give you the courtesy your choice of words deserve.

Oh, and it took me three seconds to find a similar post, but with a more left wing slant to it. I guess if you are a moderate who might not agree with the bulk of E, you get censored?

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=257316.0

What statement there, exactly, is the left-wing equivalent of claiming it should be okay for whites to use 'nigger' in a general context?

[backlash84]

I can't help what you've read into my words. As for the statement, it stands. It was not insulting to anyone, I didn't name names, and was nothing but polite in all of my PM's, as can be seen from my first post on this thread. However, when I asked why it was locked I was informed I'd "already been told", like some sort of child.

Still, you admit to your discourtesy... seems farther childish to me.


EDITED: What exactly implied that using the N-word in public was alright? I'd love to see where you see that.

[Vekseid]

Your gaslighting is not going to wash off the manipulative veneer you laid over your first post.

Or spamming a bunch of people with "I'm about to be banned! Here's my e-mail!" ...right.

As for you being already told, you were:

Unfortunately, this particular thread is going nowhere good, and it's going there fast. The original topic was about a boycott against ME: Andromeda because of Manveer Heir's tweets (which no one disagreed about said tweets being offensive), but it's devolved into something rather wholly different.

Thread locked. Sorry, folks.

Did something make you think that thread was locked because of you?

I get the feeling you didn't read some of the posts, if you think that is remotely comparable to what was said.

[backlash84]

I've been banned from subreddits on reddit before, and all I did was send my email out to those I was currently roleplaying with, and accidentally one mod, for a total of 3 emails... really spamming it up there was I?

As for being told, I asked the mod who locked it, who told me that the that was just until they were separated into two different topics, as you can see in the quotes of the messages I've sent and received on the matter.

If you can show me one post in that thread that said saying the N-word was alright, I'd love to see it. If it had come up, I would have argued against it, and not just removed the topic entirely.

[backlash84]

You know, since this section is for controversial opinions.

[Vekseid]

Staff didn't delete the topic, the new owner of the thread did.

Staff merely split off the controversial topic to let the main thread get unlocked, as was directly mentioned.

It may be a debate that needs to happen somewhere, someday, but right now, if staff feels that sort of topic causes too much hurt, I am not going to overrule them on it. While this is 'PROC', at the end of the day members still need to feel comfortable around each other.

[backlash84]

And if the person who made the thread deleted it, that's fine. That said, it doesn't change the fact that I was told the thread was not going to be unlocked, and then when I posted about censorship on E to get people's opinions, that was deleted. You can see how this looks like anything that might be offensive to the far left demographic is censored, where as you get stuff on the same subject from the far left point of view, like I linked to earlier, which isn't locked at all. Whether or not the user themselves deleted it, it was not going to be unlocked until I contacted you directly.

I'm not even right winged, I'm a moderate. But just because this is a mostly left wing website doesn't mean censorship of right winged opinions is alright. If people don't want to feel uncomfortable, they shouldn't be in the sub labeled "controversial".

[Eikichi]

I'm not even right winged, I'm a moderate. But just because this is a mostly left wing website doesn't mean censorship of right winged opinions is alright. If people don't want to feel uncomfortable, they shouldn't be in the sub labeled "controversial".

I feel this a bit poorly worded. No one is purposely going to places that make them uncomfortable. This is a sub for topics of political, religious, and controversial nature. They come for some specific things they want to discuss, or see others discuss.

[backlash84]

But if you are made uncomfortable easily, then would it be wise of you to go to a section called "Controversial"? Aren't you then basically looking for something to be offended by?

It wasn't even like what we were talking about was that bad, we weren't being racist, we were discussing what constitutes Racism, mostly towards white people.

[Vekseid]

Is what you are comfortable with to be the gold standard against which all measures of comfort are to be judged?

[Silk]

Is what you are comfortable with to be the gold standard against which all measures of comfort are to be judged?

Not at all, but is it the butchers fault that the vegetarian walked into the meat grocers?

[Vekseid]

A more appropriate comparison would be asking when it's okay to take away people's knives when they start waving them.

[AmberStarfire]

A more appropriate comparison would be asking when it's okay to take away people's knives when they start waving them.

It may be an overly pragmatic way of seeing things but.. this is your site, so *shrugs*. If you or those you appoint to run it make a choice based on the interests of the site or its population as a whole, then that's your decision to make. For instance, opening, closing, locking threads, allowing discussions or not.

I know some other sites and pages where it's just 'no politics or religion'. Anything divisive, but if you foresee this is going to cause more trouble than it's worth, then you have every right to do what you feel is best and right. It is afterall your backyard in a way. You're hosting the site and taking on the responsibility of running Elliquiy.

[Lustful Bride]

Lets all be honest with ourselves that thread was heavily doomed to degrade down into a screaming match and everyone being all pissy to everyone.

There was too much hot headedness, raging emotions and lack of calm thinking. I don't see it so much as censorship but as a case of the thread was going to start a youtube level screaming tantrum and its better to just prevent it before it happens?

Were there some valid arguments to be made there? Possibly.

Could a good discussion have come up on race relations, stereotypes and the possibility that racism against Caucasians gained a measure of acceptance or Vice Versa? Again, Possibly.

Was it going to be the main focus? No. It was just going to be finger pointings, misunderstandings, and everyone disliking everyone.

No one went into it to have an intellectual discussion, it was spawned from a thread about outrage over one racist guy on the bioware team and it was just going to be a thread of outrage and lack of calm thinking.

[backlash84]

As someone who was actually part of the discussion, the "Knife waving" comparison is just a major over reaction. We were all talking calmly and rationally with one another. And again, if you were that concerned about what COULD happen, why is it that so many left winged discussions on THE SAME THING are not being locked at all?

Deleting/locking threads because of what COULD happen makes this whole section pointless. Anything that is controversial could devolve into a shouting match, but the thread we were talking on DIDN'T. You can throw out horrible "could be" scenario's all you'd like, but it's just a fear tactic, nothing more.

And you've still been unable to quote anything that was said that you'd consider so offensive that was worth blocking off the whole conversation.

[Eikichi]

As someone who was actually part of the discussion, the "Knife waving" comparison is just a major over reaction. We were all talking calmly and rationally with one another. And again, if you were that concerned about what COULD happen, why is it that so many left winged discussions on THE SAME THING are not being locked at all?

Deleting/locking threads because of what COULD happen makes this whole section pointless. Anything that is controversial could devolve into a shouting match, but the thread we were talking on DIDN'T. You can throw out horrible "could be" scenario's all you'd like, but it's just a fear tactic, nothing more.

And you've still been unable to quote anything that was said that you'd consider so offensive that was worth blocking off the whole conversation.

Terrorist attacks could happen at any moment. That doesn't mean the entire world shuts down 24/7 to look out for them. They wait to see whether or not it's likely, then proceed with emergency procedures. I find the same concept applies neatly here. They assessed the situation, and the mods deemed it not worth continuing. That's their prerogative to decide, and if their opinion on the matter is trusted than they did it with some reason or insight. Not just to blindly shut off something that might happen.

[backlash84]

You are ignoring the facts that A: there are left wing conversations on the same subject that aren't being blocked, that are just as likely to go bad, and B: There has yet to be any direct quotes to show what was so dangerous, despite them being requested multiple times.

Right now, basically no one here has any context, allowing them to imagine the worst. The only reason not to give context is because it will hurt your case.

[Eikichi]

You are ignoring the facts that A: there are left wing conversations on the same subject that aren't being blocked, that are just as likely to go bad, and B: There has yet to be any direct quotes to show what was so dangerous, despite them being requested multiple times.

Right now, basically no one here has any context, allowing them to imagine the worst. The only reason not to give context is because it will hurt your case.

Again, the problem with that argument is that it's towards the mods prerogative. As far as the 'left-wing' conversation you linked. That conversation ended on October 15th. The mods decided it wouldn't go bad and.. it didn't. It ended. The left-wing conversation also doesn't have the same divisive language that was being used in the other thread, if not by you it was still being used by others.

[backlash84]

And now I'll ask you, and not add anything else so it can't be ignored, can you actually QUOTE any of this language?

[Eikichi]

And now I'll ask you, and not add anything else so it can't be ignored, can you actually QUOTE any of this language?

Considering the thread's now deleted that's impossible.

[backlash84]

So it was so offensive that it deserved to be locked, but not so much as to be at all memorable...

[Eikichi]

So it was so offensive that it deserved to be locked, but not so much as to be at all memorable...

I read through the thread. But I read through a lot of threads when I'm sitting at my computer at work. Mostly as a way to distract myself from mindless reports. So I can't recall tidbits on threads, especially when most of them touch on the same topics these days.

[backlash84]

So when you read through it, it didn't stand out as any more offensive than any of the other threads just like it? Yet this thread that blended in with all the others deserved to be locked? Does that make sense to you?

[MiraMirror]

With all due respect, it kind of seems like you're just going to keep twisting stuff or phrasing things so it seems like you're a martyr or being attacked or something so you always "win " or something.

[Eikichi]

So when you read through it, it didn't stand out as any more offensive than any of the other threads just like it? Yet this thread that blended in with all the others deserved to be locked? Does that make sense to you?

In terms of the threads I read everyday? No. It wasn't anymore offensive. But you're missing the point, perhaps because I didn't clarify. I read through a variety of threads, on different websites. Since most erotica websites have this general format for the forum layout it's a bit difficult to see what I read where. But usually on two of the other sites I frequent the divisiveness of the conversations are much more racially charged. So if I did skim through your thread and saw anything similar, it would have just passed through me. But then again, I'm not the audience that would be insulted or offended by such language so that's also a factor.

As for whether it makes sense to me. Yes. To be frank, even if there was censorship on E.. and having read some posts from a few members I don't think there is censorship or if there is then it must be on things much worse than what I've read. I find it that it's the site owner, and his admins, prerogative to guide conversations or halt those they deem inappropriate. So if either of them noticed any reason for it to be locked then there has to be an explicit trust that the admins are doing it for a decent and appropriate reason.

To be honest, making the readily jump that the discussion was closed because it was right-wing based and citing another left-wing discussion is inherently flawed. especially since if you look through a few pages you'll notice plenty of conversations here actually lean toward the right along with some of the most vocal people in these threads. They aren't a majority.. I'd say it's an even split, but they aren't being censored for their opinions.

[backlash84]

With all due respect, it kind of seems like you're just going to keep twisting stuff or phrasing things so it seems like you're a martyr or being attacked or something so you always "win " or something.

That "Twisting" you are referring to is simply pointing out the flaws in someone's logic, it's a part of debating. If you can do so with mine you are welcome to. However, considering if you could that's what you would have done, I won't hold my breath.

[MiraMirror]

That "Twisting" you are referring to is simply pointing out the flaws in someone's logic, it's a part of debating. If you can do so with mine you are welcome to. However, considering if you could that's what you would have done, I won't hold my breath.

I've also seen Vekseid make valid points that you kind of just ignore, or that's the way it looks to me.   So no, I am not talking about the flaws in someone's thinking, I'm talking about avoiding points and acting like they aren't valid, or that they're outright wrong and everything you say is golden.   

It feels disrespectful, and while I respect your right to a decision, it feels like you're dosing and weaving instead of acknowledging the "other side", so to speak. =/

[backlash84]

In terms of the threads I read everyday? No. It wasn't anymore offensive. But you're missing the point, perhaps because I didn't clarify. I read through a variety of threads, on different websites. Since most erotica websites have this general format for the forum layout it's a bit difficult to see what I read where. But usually on two of the other sites I frequent the divisiveness of the conversations are much more racially charged. So if I did skim through your thread and saw anything similar, it would have just passed through me. But then again, I'm not the audience that would be insulted or offended by such language so that's also a factor.

As for whether it makes sense to me. Yes. To be frank, even if there was censorship on E.. and having read some posts from a few members I don't think there is censorship or if there is then it must be on things much worse than what I've read. I find it that it's the site owner, and his admins, prerogative to guide conversations or halt those they deem inappropriate. So if either of them noticed any reason for it to be locked then there has to be an explicit trust that the admins are doing it for a decent and appropriate reason.

To be honest, making the readily jump that the discussion was closed because it was right-wing based and citing another left-wing discussion is inherently flawed. especially since if you look through a few pages you'll notice plenty of conversations here actually lean toward the right along with some of the most vocal people in these threads. They aren't a majority.. I'd say it's an even split, but they aren't being censored for their opinions.

And I think you are missing the point that no one, NO ONE, can say what comment made was so bad to result in it being locked. Once again, you are suggesting "it must have been horrible to be locked, since there are so many other debates on this site that haven't been." Without ANY proof.

[backlash84]

I've also seen Vekseid make valid points that you kind of just ignore, or that's the way it looks to me.   So no, I am not talking about the flaws in someone's thinking, I'm talking about avoiding points and acting like they aren't valid, or that they're outright wrong and everything you say is golden.   

It feels disrespectful, and while I respect your right to a decision, it feels like you're dosing and weaving instead of acknowledging the "other side", so to speak. =/

Please, point out one topic I've dodged. I can point out plenty everyone else has, like what was said that resulted in the lock in the first place, which no one has been able to answer.

[Eikichi]

Please, point out one topic I've dodged. I can point out plenty everyone else has, like what was said that resulted in the lock in the first place, which no one has been able to answer.

Again. That makes no logical sense. You're saying that were blindly accepting the thread was locked because something was said without proof. Fine. Valid point. Counter. You're blindly accepting that in your own opinion what you read and said was no divisive or the language was not in some form harmful. You can't provide any proof that someone wouldn't find it harmful to the extent that the thread would need to be moderated. You're asking us to provide evidence a crime had been committed while  biasedly assuming no crime took place so we can't possibly have evidence.

As for a topic you've dodged. The argument that whatever the conversation was it's the admin and moderators site so they have a prerogative to snuff conversations they see going down a dangerous path. You're only counter to this is that you want evidence it was going down the path to begin with. When they have every right to silence it before it escalates to that point if they think it's where the topic is going.

[backlash84]

So your argument is "you are guilty until proven innocent."?

As for what I said being devicive, which you can't even remember what I said. I'll quote Veksied.

"Did something make you think that thread was locked because of you?"

What I said on the original thread wasn't even in question, and if it was, I'd hope they'd at least know what it was.

[Eikichi]

So your argument is "you are guilty until proven innocent."

That wasn't my argument. You might need to check it again.

I'm not saying what you said was divisive. But the argument is still there that something you read from another user you might not consider divisive but that staff did.

Also. Its not my job to remember what you said in a thread I didn't post in.

[backlash84]

"It's not my job to remember what happened, just to assume it was bad."

[Eikichi]

"It's not my job to remember what happened, just to assume it was bad."

Again your argument here is the equivalent of this.

"The thread was censored because it was right leaning. I didn't see anything decisive. There couldn't be anything divisive. I didn't see it."

I can put words in people's mouths too. But I think I'm done replying to this thread.

[backlash84]

The thing is, NO ONE can point to anything being divisive, it's just assumed that it was.

[HannibalBarca]

I missed the thread, but you are indicating, backlash84, that you remember it.  Can you recall anything in it that could have been taken as divisive from a perspective other than yours?  After all, one of the best skills a debater can have is an understanding of the other sides' arguments.

[backlash84]

I can think of nothing that was beyond the norm of a debate. And yes, I can remember quite a bit of what was said.

I was originally arguing that boycotting the next Mass Effect game because one of the developers has quite a few racist tweets against white people on his account would be like refusing to go to any Subway Sandwich place because, with a company that large, it is very likely that someone involved is a racist, bigoted asshole.

This them moved to someone pointing out that if those same comments were made about a minority instead of about white people, it probably would be viewed more harshly. After considering that for a moment, I came to the conclusion that yes, I would be far more offended if the guy was saying things like that about black people, and that I guess I was just so used to seeing that kind of hate speech against white people that it doesn't phase me as much. I said I'd still buy the game, but that I would be writing Bioware about this to see if they considered someone representing their company saying things like this as socially acceptable.

This turned into a discussion about race in general, with someone saying that it wasn't so much racist what the man was saying, as it was slightly offensive. This sparked a bit of a debate about what racism is, and how racism against white people has become more socially acceptable.

This, lead to a discussion about white privilege, to which I pointed out that although there is white privilege, there is of course such things as black privilege and Asian privilege, citing that both were wrong, and saying that it mostly depends on your situation. In some situations, being black can really suck. However, you are also more likely to get into an ivy league college, or with minority quotas.

Someone brought up the fact that minority quotas were originally brought in to try and even the playing field due to racism. I stated that I think minority quotas are racist, and that people should be hired based on their qualifications, and that it was actually pretty insulting to minorities to be assuming they need to be handed a job, like they can't earn it on their own merit. My statement was that even though these quotas have good intentions, that I didn't believe they are a good way to go about combating racism.

And there you have it, that's when the thread was locked.

[Kuroneko]

I didn't see the thread in question, so I can't speak to its content. But I do agree with what Amberstarfire said regarding the site ownership and content. I also want to add that trust in the admin team and their care for all members of the community is part of why Elliquiy is such a wonderful place. I believe they do an excellent job in this regard.

What's most disturbing about this to me is that a private conversation with the mods was posted here without their permission. Though I don't think there was anything in this particular exchange that these mods wouldn't have said publicly, in my opinion, conversations with a member of staff should be confidential.  As Vekseid pointed out, this conversation was posted here, posing the question of censorship before a reply was even received that could have addressed the initial question regarding the thread. If a reasonable amount of time had been allowed for an answer, the rest of this conversation might not even be happening, or have been necessary.

My $.02

[backlash84]

If you are so offended that I posted a conversation over PM with censored names, you should be more offended that Vekseid posted a private message I sent accidentally to another mod, and mocked me for it.

[backlash84]

I didn't see the thread in question, so I can't speak to its content. But I do agree with what Amberstarfire said regarding the site ownership and content. I also want to add that trust in the admin team and their care for all members of the community is part of why Elliquiy is such a wonderful place. I believe they do an excellent job in this regard.

What's most disturbing about this to me is that a private conversation with the mods was posted here without their permission. Though I don't think there was anything in this particular exchange that these mods wouldn't have said publicly, in my opinion, conversations with a member of staff should be confidential.  As Vekseid pointed out, this conversation was posted here, posing the question of censorship before a reply was even received that could have addressed the initial question regarding the thread. If a reasonable amount of time had been allowed for an answer, the rest of this conversation might not even be happening, or have been necessary.

My $.02

Oh, and here he posting a paraphrased version of what I sent over PM to a different mod. Guess he didn't feel the need to actually copy and paste what I said.

"Or spamming a bunch of people with "I'm about to be banned! Here's my e-mail!" ...right."

Spamming by the way, was my three current roleplay partners.

[Kuroneko]

I never said I was offended.  I'm not.

I understand that you're upset about this situation, but I would respectfully ask that you please don't put words into my mouth or tell me what my reactions should or should not be.

My position is that the current situation could have been avoided if it had been handled differently. That's all.

[backlash84]

I never said I was offended.  I'm not.

I understand that you're upset about this situation, but I would respectfully ask that you please don't put words into my mouth or tell me what my reactions should or should not be.

My position is that the current situation could have been avoided if it had been handled differently. That's all.

You're exact words then.

"What's most disturbing about this to me is that a private conversation with the mods was posted here without their permission."

"Disturbing" then, you should find it more disturbing that the creator of this website used a private message not sent to him to mock a member of this site.

[HannibalBarca]

There's always going to be disagreement over such things, because we all have different values for various concepts.  Some people value individuality more than group solidarity, for example, and even among those two concepts, people can value one segment of them but not others.

February will be my 4th anniversary here at E, and I've had a lot of debates with others in that time, but there have been a lot of opinions expressed, left, middle, and right.  Backlash, you've been here longer than me, so you're likely to know it better.  There's a majority of people here who lean left, but I think that has more to do with the subject material and the acceptance of diversity as outlined in the site rules than anything else.  Even if my brothers wrote like I did, they would never write here because they don't accept the LGBTQ community.  I think that is why there's a significant left-leaning outlook to most people on this site.

Similarly, I think one of the moderator's primary duties here is to maintain a community where the most people feel safe and welcome.  If most of the people here are left-leaning, then it's more likely that stuff that is viewed as possibly offensive (or heading that way) to that group is going to be more likely to be removed, blocked, or otherwise stopped.  It's consistent with population.

As far as what you said was posted in the now-removed thread, it doesn't sound worse than other threads I've seen.  But I wasn't there to read it, and Vekseid was.

As far as racism and privilege...I've posted about that on other threads, and I won't begin it all again.  But I'll just say that I'm a middle-aged straight white man, I've had a chance in my life to observe and experience prejudice from both sides, and I've rarely experienced racism against me.  I've seen far, far more expressed towards non-whites.  It makes sense, from a historical and sociological perspective, that racism happens far less to members of a majority group and far more to minority groups in any culture or social group...and that when a majority group member sees their privilege diminished, it feels like repression from their perspective instead of the balancing it really is.

And I've only played the first Mass Effect, so I'm totally out of that whole part of the discussion.

[Kuroneko]

You're exact words then.

"What's most disturbing about this to me is that a private conversation with the mods was posted here without their permission."

"Disturbing" then, you should find it more disturbing that the creator of this website used a private message not sent to him to mock a member of this site.

I assume that all emails sent to staff members will be shared with other staff members when warranted or necessary. That is part of having an admin team.

I've made my point and I'm not interested in arguing.

[backlash84]

And you are completely fine with said information being used to mock users who disagree with the mod team? You don't view that as at all hypocritical on your part?

[backlash84]

There's always going to be disagreement over such things, because we all have different values for various concepts.  Some people value individuality more than group solidarity, for example, and even among those two concepts, people can value one segment of them but not others.

February will be my 4th anniversary here at E, and I've had a lot of debates with others in that time, but there have been a lot of opinions expressed, left, middle, and right.  Backlash, you've been here longer than me, so you're likely to know it better.  There's a majority of people here who lean left, but I think that has more to do with the subject material and the acceptance of diversity as outlined in the site rules than anything else.  Even if my brothers wrote like I did, they would never write here because they don't accept the LGBTQ community.  I think that is why there's a significant left-leaning outlook to most people on this site.

Similarly, I think one of the moderator's primary duties here is to maintain a community where the most people feel safe and welcome.  If most of the people here are left-leaning, then it's more likely that stuff that is viewed as possibly offensive (or heading that way) to that group is going to be more likely to be removed, blocked, or otherwise stopped.  It's consistent with population.

As far as what you said was posted in the now-removed thread, it doesn't sound worse than other threads I've seen.  But I wasn't there to read it, and Vekseid was.

As far as racism and privilege...I've posted about that on other threads, and I won't begin it all again.  But I'll just say that I'm a middle-aged straight white man, I've had a chance in my life to observe and experience prejudice from both sides, and I've rarely experienced racism against me.  I've seen far, far more expressed towards non-whites.  It makes sense, from a historical and sociological perspective, that racism happens far less to members of a majority group and far more to minority groups in any culture or social group...and that when a majority group member sees their privilege diminished, it feels like repression from their perspective instead of the balancing it really is.

And I've only played the first Mass Effect, so I'm totally out of that whole part of the discussion.

And I'm glad you haven't experienced racism against yourself to any major extent. I'm a bit younger, 24, and in my generation it has become a pretty common thing. I've been told my opinion doesn't matter because I'm white, that I don't understand things because I'm white, that I should shut up because I'm white... It's becoming more and more common. Racism is still a big issue for minorities, and I'd never justify that to any extent. I've debated racists often, and will continue to do so. But recently, defending white people has begun to be seen as putting down minorities... and that's just not true.

I'm not afraid of privileges being removed, my right to an opinion however? That does concern me, and that's why I'm continuing to argue this point on this subject.

[Vekseid]

For the record, backlash84 accidentally sent it to a staff member. Apparently people think we don't talk to each other.

It may be an overly pragmatic way of seeing things but.. this is your site, so *shrugs*. If you or those you appoint to run it make a choice based on the interests of the site or its population as a whole, then that's your decision to make. For instance, opening, closing, locking threads, allowing discussions or not.

I know some other sites and pages where it's just 'no politics or religion'. Anything divisive, but if you foresee this is going to cause more trouble than it's worth, then you have every right to do what you feel is best and right. It is afterall your backyard in a way. You're hosting the site and taking on the responsibility of running Elliquiy.

I have a distaste for permanently closing down discussions, personally. 9 times out of 10 when I did it it was a mistake. The few times where it isn't a mistake are pretty obviously lopsided.

At the same time, overruling staff is not something I'll do at a whim either. It's up to staff to deal with the fallout, after all.

I missed the thread, but you are indicating, backlash84, that you remember it.  Can you recall anything in it that could have been taken as divisive from a perspective other than yours?  After all, one of the best skills a debater can have is an understanding of the other sides' arguments.

See the last line in my post.

That is the reason it got locked. It is not a mystery.

Again, I'm not claiming I agree with the lock, but at the same time, I can certainly understand the concern given the circumstances.

I never said I was offended.  I'm not.

I understand that you're upset about this situation, but I would respectfully ask that you please don't put words into my mouth or tell me what my reactions should or should not be.

My position is that the current situation could have been avoided if it had been handled differently. That's all.

backlash was told that the proper means of handling this is via private conversation with staff. Then he posted this thread.

It got nuked, he wanted it back, so I granted his wish.

[Formless]

And I'm glad you haven't experienced racism against yourself to any major extent. I'm a bit younger, 24, and in my generation it has become a pretty common thing. I've been told my opinion doesn't matter because I'm white, that I don't understand things because I'm white, that I should shut up because I'm white... It's becoming more and more common. Racism is still a big issue for minorities, and I'd never justify that to any extent. I've debated racists often, and will continue to do so. But recently, defending white people has begun to be seen as putting down minorities... and that's just not true.

I'm not afraid of privileges being removed, my right to an opinion however? That does concern me, and that's why I'm continuing to argue this point on this subject.

I've read somewhere an important saying.

"Oppression is not a competition."

We all come across hardships that relates to our origins, beliefs or culture. But under no condition should we wear those hardships as blankets for the rest of our lives. Instead we shrug them off and move on.

In regards to the topic itself, if the Administration saw fit to remove any content for the purpose of perserving civility, so be it. I've been here for a handful of years and I've seen how some civil discussions turn sour quickly, and some of the admins here have been around since the creation of this website. They have enough experience and insight to handle any thread in this website.

This is all I have to say about the topic.

[Kuroneko]

backlash was told that the proper means of handling this is via private conversation with staff. Then he posted this thread.

It got nuked, he wanted it back, so I granted his wish.

That's my understanding of how such things should be handled as well. Thank you for the clarification.

And you are completely fine with said information being used to mock users who disagree with the mod team? You don't view that as at all hypocritical on your part?

Isn't it hypocritical for you to complain about a private message being made public when you yourself did exactly the same thing? It seems to me that you opened the proverbial Pandora's Box first. You also make the assumption that I agree with your point of view and assessment of the situation. There are multiple interpretations here.

Anyhow, I hope this matter gets resolved and I wish you a good evening, Backlash. I have nothing more to say.

[Thesunmaid]

Sorry Backlash but...well you seem to have a fitting name. You seem to want to argue...you seem to want to goad and you seem to revel in arguing with people. I mean its not generally normal to seem proud of being banned from things. There is a such thing as freedom of speech...and you are welcome to say what you want...but others are also allowed to say you are kind of an ass as well. Veks does try to keep this forum as safe and comfortable for as many people as he can. And I for one appreciate the staff here. I was always nervous about going to them and bothering them with things but to my surprise they were very supportive and wonderful when I was in a bad situation. They did not accuse me of making things up and they took care of things for me in a rather upsetting and slightly scary situation for me quickly and quietly and I appreciate that.

There are a lot of topics that just by existing will cause an instant shit storm. It's one of the main reasons I don't bother talking about certain subjects because it will only degenerate into shit flinging and name calling. No matter what the intentions of the post that started out...some things will always light the TNT stick and have to be locked...and you seem quite eager to strike the match and throw. I am basing this purely on your attitude on this thread. I have not read the other thread because I choose to avoid things like that.

There is a difference between censorship and just not wanting to have to deal with the shit storm some people insist on starting. You can feel free to twist my words how ever you like...and roll your eyes and think I am wrong..that's your right...but its my right to say this..calm down. This forum is a wonderful place and you obviously have some intelligence to you otherwise you would have basically gone into swearing and shaking your fist. But seriously..let it go.(no not a frozen reference) Find a nice rp or two and enjoy yourself. I am sure you can find other ways of enjoying this place other than adding it to your list of places that banned you or going off about how they dared to censor you.

Some fights you can't win...and some fights might just not be worth it. Is this one?

[HannibalBarca]

And I'm glad you haven't experienced racism against yourself to any major extent. I'm a bit younger, 24, and in my generation it has become a pretty common thing. I've been told my opinion doesn't matter because I'm white, that I don't understand things because I'm white, that I should shut up because I'm white... It's becoming more and more common. Racism is still a big issue for minorities, and I'd never justify that to any extent. I've debated racists often, and will continue to do so. But recently, defending white people has begun to be seen as putting down minorities... and that's just not true.

It can also make a huge difference where you live, what socioeconomic status you have, and the ethnic makeup of your community.  I've listened to some serious racist language in my life.  My grandfather was saved from drowning by a fellow sailor in WW2 after their ship was torpedoed.  The other sailor was of Filipino descent, and even as an old man, he still didn't have anything good to say about Filipinos other than that one fellow sailor.  His own wife, my grandmother, was a Blackfoot who grew up on a reservation, and he had many ancestors of native American descent in his own side of the family tree, and he never had anything bad to say about them.  Everyone else, though, could go to hell as far as he was concerned.  My father had to constantly confront him whenever we visited, because he didn't want me and my brothers to think what our grandfather said was acceptable.

As whites have shrunk as a majority in this country, a lot of the horrible old stuff has been minimized, but other stuff has stubbornly stuck around.  My dad has told me a lot of what he experienced when he was young (he was born in 1947)...not as much personally, but through his mother and friends of color.  It has gotten better.  However, now, people are more comfortable with expressing their opinions on things that, years ago, would have gotten them ostracized, arrested, or even murdered.  Some of that stuff runs contrary to what a lot of white people have experienced or been taught.  Some of it even goes beyond into the realm of prejudice against white people.  That's to be expected.  If everything was ever truly even in this country, realistically, there wouldn't be a complete removal of racism, but everyone would get an equal dose of it.  There isn't an equality of racism yet in this country.  Getting rid of all of it would be good, but if I have to put up with some as a white man while we work towards everyone getting treated equally, I can deal with it.  I have friends and family who have had to put up with a crapload more suffering, hatred, and humiliation than I'll ever have to deal with.

I'm not afraid of privileges being removed, my right to an opinion however? That does concern me, and that's why I'm continuing to argue this point on this subject.

Keep expressing it, that's a huge part of the point of this entire forum.  We don't have to agree, but it does help to hear each others' perspectives so we can move towards understanding one another.  And maybe there is more we agree with than we thought.  That's what I've tended to learn over the years.  What we have in common is larger than what separates us.

[backlash84]

That's my understanding of how such things should be handled as well. Thank you for the clarification.

Isn't it hypocritical for you to complain about a private message being made public when you yourself did exactly the same thing? It seems to me that you opened the proverbial Pandora's Box first. You also make the assumption that I agree with your point of view and assessment of the situation. There are multiple interpretations here.

Anyhow, I hope this matter gets resolved and I wish you a good evening, Backlash. I have nothing more to say.

I didn't have an issue with it, I was pointing out YOUR hypocrisy by saying it's fine when he does it, but not when I do.

[backlash84]

For the record, backlash84 accidentally sent it to a staff member. Apparently people think we don't talk to each other.

I have a distaste for permanently closing down discussions, personally. 9 times out of 10 when I did it it was a mistake. The few times where it isn't a mistake are pretty obviously lopsided.

At the same time, overruling staff is not something I'll do at a whim either. It's up to staff to deal with the fallout, after all.

See the last line in my post.

That is the reason it got locked. It is not a mystery.

Again, I'm not claiming I agree with the lock, but at the same time, I can certainly understand the concern given the circumstances.

backlash was told that the proper means of handling this is via private conversation with staff. Then he posted this thread.

It got nuked, he wanted it back, so I granted his wish.

And I asked YOU to show me where the hell it has anything close to "claiming it should be okay for whites to use 'nigger' in a general context?", which you have yet to provide, because nothing like that existed.

And I wasn't surprised you knew about it, my argument was that if anyone was offended that I posted what was said, then how the hell do they excuse you using private messages to make fun of someone?

And, as the subject was unlocked, I was proven RIGHT to have POLITELY have come to you about the issue. The reason I started this thread on censorship wasn't because of YOU but of other MODS locking things that you yourself admit shouldn't have been locked in the first place!

[Vekseid]

News flash backlash: I am not beholden to you.

This may come as a shock, so I will give it some time to sink in.

[backlash84]

Sorry Backlash but...well you seem to have a fitting name. You seem to want to argue...you seem to want to goad and you seem to revel in arguing with people. I mean its not generally normal to seem proud of being banned from things. There is a such thing as freedom of speech...and you are welcome to say what you want...but others are also allowed to say you are kind of an ass as well. Veks does try to keep this forum as safe and comfortable for as many people as he can. And I for one appreciate the staff here. I was always nervous about going to them and bothering them with things but to my surprise they were very supportive and wonderful when I was in a bad situation. They did not accuse me of making things up and they took care of things for me in a rather upsetting and slightly scary situation for me quickly and quietly and I appreciate that.

There are a lot of topics that just by existing will cause an instant shit storm. It's one of the main reasons I don't bother talking about certain subjects because it will only degenerate into shit flinging and name calling. No matter what the intentions of the post that started out...some things will always light the TNT stick and have to be locked...and you seem quite eager to strike the match and throw. I am basing this purely on your attitude on this thread. I have not read the other thread because I choose to avoid things like that.

There is a difference between censorship and just not wanting to have to deal with the shit storm some people insist on starting. You can feel free to twist my words how ever you like...and roll your eyes and think I am wrong..that's your right...but its my right to say this..calm down. This forum is a wonderful place and you obviously have some intelligence to you otherwise you would have basically gone into swearing and shaking your fist. But seriously..let it go.(no not a frozen reference) Find a nice rp or two and enjoy yourself. I am sure you can find other ways of enjoying this place other than adding it to your list of places that banned you or going off about how they dared to censor you.

Some fights you can't win...and some fights might just not be worth it. Is this one?

I enjoy debate, which is why I came to the controversial section. I didn't make this personal, I didn't name names, I tried to start a conversation about censorship. I wanted to hear what other people thought of it in general, I didn't resort to mud slinging, in fact the first personal insults you'll find on this thread aren't from me, but they sure are directed at me.

I'm not proud of being banned, but I am not going to back down because someone is in authority. I brought up the possibility of my being banned to explain why I sent PM's to people with my email, so if I did get banned I could continue my stories off site. Vekseid decided to call this "spamming" people, 3 messages were sent.

Believe it or not, I was very polite to everyone before this whole shit storm started. I was polite when I pms the mods, I was polite when I pmed Vekseid, but I can only take being insulted so much before I stop trying to be polite.

[backlash84]

News flash backlash: I am not beholden to you.

This may come as a shock, so I will give it some time to sink in.

So you find it perfectly alright to, and I'm going to list everything in a nice, orderly little row for you.

1: Make unsubstantiated claims about what was said, outright lying about the conversation that was being held.

2: Twisting private messages to act like I'm "spamming" users.

3: Insinuating I was at all rude when I PMed you, your mods, or anyone else before this shit storm blew up, which you started in on the insults.

[MiraMirror]

I didn't have an issue with it, I was pointing out YOUR hypocrisy by saying it's fine when he does it, but not when I do.

You seem quick to judge other people and their supposed hypocrisy, but loathe to accept the same regarding your own hypocrisy.   I'm on a phone, so I'm not making this long, but seriously.   You're talking about how you are mocked with a message that was private, and fine, that sucks, but you did the exact same thing   in your opening post.   Debate is debate, but there's a difference between debate and arguing from what you seem to think is a permanent higher ground where your word is absolute and infallible.

[HannibalBarca]

I saw that Veks used sarcasm in his posts to you.  Knowing Veks, that should be expected.  It doesn't look like insults to me, but then, that's just my opinion.

[backlash84]

You seem quick to judge other people and their supposed hypocrisy, but loathe to accept the same regarding your own hypocrisy.   I'm on a phone, so I'm not making this long, but seriously.   You're talking about how you are mocked with a message that was private, and fine, that sucks, but you did the exact same thing   in your opening post.   Debate is debate, but there's a difference between debate and arguing from what you seem to think is a permanent higher ground where your word is absolute and infallible.

Maybe you should go back and read that first post again, I used EXACT QUOTES, and didn't give any names out. If you can't see the difference, I don't think I can help you.

[MiraMirror]

Maybe you should go back and read that first post again, I used EXACT QUOTES, and didn't give any names out. If you can't see the difference, I don't think I can help you.

I said nothing about you using names.  I said you used a conversation that was private- between you and mod 1- in your opening post.  Vekseid also did not use any names, outside of yours. 

What Veks said was:

Your gaslighting is not going to wash off the manipulative veneer you laid over your first post.

Or spamming a bunch of people with "I'm about to be banned! Here's my e-mail!" ...right.

I don't see anything regarding names there, and I didn't say anything about names in my post, either.

[backlash84]

I didn't name names, so what does that even matter? I was posting it to show what the people in authority on this site say and do. With mod one, I think it actually showed that some mods to a really good job. If things had gone the way he'd said they would, there wouldn't be an issue at all. The second mod is the one that fucked things up as far as I'm concerned.

It's basically the same as filming police officers. Mods police the site, and showing proof of what they do shouldn't be an issue. I didn't use it to mock them, I used it to start a conversation.

[Flower]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. This really seems like something which should be discussed in PMs. It doesn't seem like this conversation is going anywhere constructive.

[Rel Mayer]

E is not governed by fairness when it comes to censorship and perception. E is governed by a select group of individuals with different backgrounds in what is right and wrong, but a core foundation of what a 'social norm' is for Elliquiy. At it's base it's governed by one person who can decide if something is beneficial for the community and who can decide what he wants the community to look like dependent on consumer feedback. To say what is right and wrong is up to perception, but at the end of the day it is decided by what is the social norm of Elliquiy and the vision that the admin has. The social norm is decided by the mass, and that's something that all of us have to eventually accept if we're of different opinion.

At least that is my way of looking at it and how your situation was addressed.

Either way, I understand why you're very passionate about this, but it's getting to the point that no matter what you say it's going to not look good on your part. If you want my suggestion, even though I know you don't think it's right and it's not fair, it's best to take a moment and step away from the situation.

I believe that this thread has also gotten out of hand and should probably be locked. At this point it's people arguing with each other and not even discussing the topic of Censorship.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you, Backlash, but I don't think anyone deserves to be put in a negative light or have mean things said about them. You, admins, other people who have aided in conversation in this thread. Having a different opinion is a good thing, but sometimes there is a certain way to approach delicate topics.

[backlash84]

E is not governed by fairness when it comes to censorship and perception. E is governed by a select group of individuals with different backgrounds in what is right and wrong, but a core foundation of what a 'social norm' is for Elliquiy. At it's base it's governed by one person who can decide if something is beneficial for the community and who can decide what he wants the community to look like dependent on consumer feedback. To say what is right and wrong is up to perception, but at the end of the day it is decided by what is the social norm of Elliquiy and the vision that the admin has. The social norm is decided by the mass, and that's something that all of us have to eventually accept if we're of different opinion.

At least that is my way of looking at it and how your situation was addressed.

Either way, I understand why you're very passionate about this, but it's getting to the point that no matter what you say it's going to not look good on your part. If you want my suggestion, even though I know you don't think it's right and it's not fair, it's best to take a moment and step away from the situation.

I believe that this thread has also gotten out of hand and should probably be locked. At this point it's people arguing with each other and not even discussing the topic of Censorship.

It's unfortunate that this happened to you, Backlash, but I don't think anyone deserves to be put in a negative light or have mean things said about them. You, admins, other people who have aided in conversation in this thread. Having a different opinion is a good thing, but sometimes there is a certain way to approach delicate topics.

I tried to keep this civil, but as you can see in the first few posts of this whole thread, Vekseid didn't feel civility was required, and states so outright.

If they lock it, I can't stop them. But I'm sure as hell never deleting this. I think people should see what happens on here if you question those in charge. They have no problem lying, misquoting you, or just insulting you if they disagree with you.

[MiraMirror]

I tried to keep this civil, but as you can see in the first few posts of this whole thread, Vekseid didn't feel civility was required, and states so outright.

If they lock it, I can't stop them. But I'm sure as hell never deleting this. I think people should see what happens on here if you question those in charge. They have no problem lying, misquoting you, or just insulting you if they disagree with you.

You haven't really been civil either.  I don't like throwing stuff around, but you really do seem like you have some kind of martyr complex.  Veks hasn't done any more insulting than you have, and you're trying to play this up like the staff here is awful or something.  The mods here are damn devoted to what they do, which is a volunteer job, and this is by far the best forum I've been on.  You're acting like they're corrupt or abusive or whatever and it's silly.  That's the last reply I'm posting in here, because it's clear to see you refuse to see anyone's point unless it's someone saying "Aww, you're right, let's crucify the mods."

[backlash84]

You haven't really been civil either.  I don't like throwing stuff around, but you really do seem like you have some kind of martyr complex.  Veks hasn't done any more insulting than you have, and you're trying to play this up like the staff here is awful or something.  The mods here are damn devoted to what they do, which is a volunteer job, and this is by far the best forum I've been on.  You're acting like they're corrupt or abusive or whatever and it's silly.  That's the last reply I'm posting in here, because it's clear to see you refuse to see anyone's point unless it's someone saying "Aww, you're right, let's crucify the mods."

I'm going to disregard this, as you clearly haven't read everything. I insisted on being polite in the first few messages, but was basically told that wasn't necessary. So, I stopped trying to be polite. If you don't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.

[Oniya]

Can you explain how 'remov[ing] any off-topic posts to their own locked area' gives any suggestion that said posts will be able to be replied to?

[backlash84]

Can you explain how 'remov[ing] any off-topic posts to their own locked area' gives any suggestion that said posts will be able to be replied to?

Will you please actually read before you post?

"Staff is discussing splitting the thread off to remove any off-topic posts to their own locked area; if we do, that topic will be open, and you'll be able to return to it. :)

[Eikichi]

Will you please actually read before you post?

"Staff is discussing splitting the thread off to remove any off-topic posts to their own locked area; if we do, that topic will be open, and you'll be able to return to it. :)

Actually. She's right. It in no way states that the off-topic portion will be accessible. "The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic" was the first thing in the message. It states that the original was locked while they removed the off-topic content. Then THAT would be open. It in no way states the off-topic area would be open.

[backlash84]

Actually. She's right. It in no way states that the off-topic portion will be accessible. "The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic" was the first thing in the message. It states that the original was locked while they removed the off-topic content. Then THAT would be open. It in no way states the off-topic area would be open.

You people really don't like to read, do you?

Before that. from me: "If that is the case, then I could start my own thread to continue the discussion we were having, as it is then on topic, and no one has violated any rules, correct?"

It was clearly stated that I'd be able to return to the thread that we were discussing once it was separated. When he said the topic would be open again, he obviously mean THE ONE I WAS TALKING TO HIM ABOUT.

[Blythe]

I am Mod1. In the interests of transparency and since things seem to be going poorly, I am comfortable revealing that. I do not particularly have anything to hide from the membership.

I have not lied to you.

I have not insulted you.

I have not twisted your words.

I have, in all our interactions, been very polite to you. I even took the time out to reassure you in PMs you would not be banned simply for disagreeing with Vekseid, although I did try to tell you that the manner in which you debate is important. And I told you how to appeal via the Chain of Command if you disagreed with my actions, because I do believe in being held accountable.

When I referred to "that topic," I was referring to the Andromeda thread being re-opened. My wording was sloppy, but if you read the messages you were sent, you'll understand that the split posts were meant to be removed to a locked topic so that the original topic could be re-opened without any further need for a templock.

Could I have worded it better? Sure. My wording was, admittedly, a bit vague. And I'm sorry about that. But no, I never told you the locked tangent would be re-opened. I was referring to the Andromeda topic being re-opened, which was still locked and not yet split when you PMed me to inquire about the original lock in the first place. :/

If you want to know which post resulted in the mod call that was made that we felt was not appropriate, you can PM me and we can discuss it there. I do not wish to discuss it in public because it involves a post that is neither yours or a moderators, and it is not fair to discuss that in public to that other member.

Actually. She's right. It in no way states that the off-topic portion will be accessible. "The topic was locked as it had veered from the original topic" was the first thing in the message. It states that the original was locked while they removed the off-topic content. Then THAT would be open. It in no way states the off-topic area would be open.

This is correct and was my intention when I sent that PM.

[Blythe]

Double-post--sorry, made some edits above. Had a major wording snafu. Bleh.

[Eikichi]

I am Mod1. In the interests of transparency and since things seem to be going poorly, I am comfortable revealing that. I do not particularly have anything to hide from the membership.

This is correct and was my intention when I sent that PM.

Vekseid more or less spoiled who you were very early on, to be fair. But thank you for confirming that. I had to reread the convo after Oniya pointed it out.

[backlash84]

I am Mod1. In the interests of transparency and since things seem to be going poorly, I am comfortable revealing that. I do not particularly have anything to hide from the membership.

I have not lied to you.

I have not insulted you.

I have not twisted your words.

I have, in all our interactions, been very polite to you. I even took the time out to reassure you in PMs you would not be banned simply for disagreeing with Vekseid, although I did try to tell you that the manner in which you debate is important. And I told you how to appeal via the Chain of Command if you disagreed with my actions, because I do believe in being held accountable.

When I referred to "that topic," I was referring to the Andromeda thread being re-opened. My wording was sloppy, but if you read the messages you were sent, you'll understand that the split posts were meant to be removed to a locked topic so that the original topic could be re-opened without any further need for a templock.

Could I have worded it better? Sure. My wording was, admittedly, a bit vague. And I'm sorry about that. But no, I never told you the locked tangent would be re-opened. I was referring to the Andromeda topic being re-opened, which was still locked and not yet split when you PMed me to inquire about the original lock in the first place. :/

If you want to know which post resulted in the mod call that was made that we felt was not appropriate, you can PM me and we can discuss it there. I do not wish to discuss it in public because it involves a post that is neither yours or a moderators, and it is not fair to discuss that in public to that other member.

This is correct and was my intention when I sent that PM.

You are right, in fact you are the only one who has been civil with me since this whole blow up started, and I think you'd agree I have also been nothing but civil with you.

From what you've said, it is easily seen how I would think the conversation would be re-opened, and how it is quite possible that I was correct in interpreting you wording, and that now that things have gone south, have changed it, as my only interest was the thread about racism, it was the only thing we talked about, I never asked about the mass effect post at all.

If you could send me the post that was reported, that would be great. Vekseid refused to do so.

[Blythe]

You are right, in fact you are the only one who has been civil with me since this whole blow up started, and I think you'd agree I have also been nothing but civil with you.

From what you've said, it is easily seen how I would think the conversation would be re-opened, and how it is quite possible that I was correct in interpreting you wording, and that now that things have gone south, have changed it, as my only interest was the thread about racism, it was the only thing we talked about, I never asked about the mass effect post at all.

If you could send me the post that was reported, that would be great. Vekseid refused to do so.

Before I do, I'm going to ask you something.

May I lock this thread? Keep in mind that I am not asking your permission to do my job as a Staff member. I'm asking simply because I think there's a better way to resolve this, and this thread isn't it. I think you might agree with me about that at this juncture.

I would like to lock it because you are not getting what you want and are becoming frustrated, the members are becoming frustrated, and because I genuinely think better progress will be made in private rather a public thread like this.

If you're agreeable to this, reply here, I will lock this thread, and we can resume discussion in private and try to de-escalate the rather unpleasant route this has taken. I look forward to hearing from you again, and thank you for your time.

[backlash84]

Well, since I started this thread, I can lock it myself. I do agree that people have stopped actually reading what's been written, or even debating anymore. If this can be sorted out, that would be great... although I am skeptical, considering how Vekseid has made it his mission to insult me at any possible moment, and lie about what was written on the original thread.

[Blythe]

Thank you, backlash. Please allow me some time to find the post in question, and I'll PM you so we can resume discussion, but once this returns to private discussion, please know it needs to stay that way.

And my PM could take up to an hour or so, because I also need to make myself some dinner, so I ask for your patience.

[backlash84]

Alright, after discussing things with Veks over PM, it has become apparent he and I were labouring under COMPLETELY different idea's of what had been said in the original thread that started all of this in the first place. And, now that things have calmed down a bit, I can admit I understand why the conversation wasn't opened after it was separated. Why I wasn't simply told this when I asked multiple times, I have no idea.

That said, I didn't open this to start a fight again. I unlocked this post just so I could say that, in my opinion, this was a misunderstanding that got blown way out of proportion, and that I, of course, was part of that issue. If instead of calling LIAR! I had asked more politely what had happened, this whole mess could have been avoided, so I'll take my part of the responsibility in that.

I want to apologize to anyone I may have insulted. From what I knew, I was being falsely accused of something, and couldn't access the proof to clear my name. To Veks, I was someone ranting over what had been, now that I've seen what had been posted, a fairly reasonable decision to lock the thread. We both had completely different idea's of what was going on, and that lead to a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

I don't want there to be any hurt feelings, especially so close to the Holidays. I can admit I was wrong to explode the way I did, especially at those of you who had nothing to do with the miscommunication. For that, you have my sincerest apology.

Hope you all have a happy holiday.

[Vekseid]

Why I wasn't simply told this when I asked multiple times, I have no idea.

I hate 'having the last word' matches, especially in my position here, but to be clear, you did not need to take my word for the state of things in that thread:

Lets all be honest with ourselves that thread was heavily doomed to degrade down into a screaming match and everyone being all pissy to everyone.

There was too much hot headedness, raging emotions and lack of calm thinking. I don't see it so much as censorship but as a case of the thread was going to start a youtube level screaming tantrum and its better to just prevent it before it happens?

Were there some valid arguments to be made there? Possibly.

Could a good discussion have come up on race relations, stereotypes and the possibility that racism against Caucasians gained a measure of acceptance or Vice Versa? Again, Possibly.

Was it going to be the main focus? No. It was just going to be finger pointings, misunderstandings, and everyone disliking everyone.

No one went into it to have an intellectual discussion, it was spawned from a thread about outrage over one racist guy on the bioware team and it was just going to be a thread of outrage and lack of calm thinking.

Anyway, as I PMed you, this thread is a spectacle and an eyesore. I should not have restored it and I apologize.

Thus, it is staying locked.