SNAP Discussion (spun from Trump)

[Fury Aphrodisia]

Okay, well, slashing tires is definitely a jump outta line, definitely. And like Iniquitous said, there's no telling where the car came from or when. Could be they borrowed it from someone else to get the stuff home, could be they bought it when things were better and now they're not. The heaviest piece of that story though, to me? Definitely the sheer volume of crap being bought with foodstamps.

I know a few WalMart cashiers, as well, and this isn't a very rare occurrence. Now, I was discussing it with someone else today and a few pieces of information came up. In a lot of cases, this is a generational poverty issue, where those who haven't ever had access or means to make themselves real meals will revert to what they know: the prepackaged and the junk foods. I can see that. I just can't see multiple hundred dollars worth of junk. There was also the fact that these people might genuinely need the food stamps, but that should really come with some kind of education about food. It should come with some sort of help to get them to figure out HOW to use decent foods to make decent meals on a budget (something even situational poverty sometimes struggles with).

In this discussion, someone also mentioned a ballpark figure of something like three percent fraud on food stamps, the lowest of any public support system. I don't have anything at my fingertips at the moment to corroborate this, but it seems as though this would be reason to look at these occurrences and try to see other reasons it might also happen. Perhaps they don't take care of themselves and don't care. Perhaps it's all they know. Perhaps that's all they can store. Perhaps they haven't been educated. None of these are particularly good things, but at least makes it understandable.

I think so long as your government doesn't have to pay for healthcare, however, it's the sort of thing that will remain perpetuated.

As far as the baskets go, do we know what will be included? I know up here, a similar program was introduced that included produce and such that many would normally not have access to. This would go a good way towards helping provide something to offset the abovementioned challenges, as well. Especially if it comes with a recipe book of some kind. It might be worth noting that a YouTube channel with cooking-on-a-budget tutorials would go a good distance towards helping people out with that sort of thing.

[Iniquitous]

I'm getting my information from Walmart cashiers.  I personally know someone who was fired over their anger.  These people had him help them to their car with 2 carts full of quite literally nothing but ice cream, soda, chips, and dip.  Those are snacks, no meals in there.  At least, I don't know anyone who has chips and dip with a chocolate bar for a meal.  What threw him over the edge was that their vehicle was a brand new Hummer.  You know how expensive those cars are?  They can afford a 2015 Hummer, but they can't afford food?  He slashed their tires.

People who actually do need the assistance, and buy cupcakes for a birthday, that doesn't bother me in the least.  One day when we were in Subway there was a Walmart cashier in there on his lunch break and we had passed a woman on the corner with a sign begging for money.  The Subway employee said his boss had gone out there the day before when she was there and offered her a job.  Granted, making sandwiches is not a glamorous job, but if you're really that bad off...  She said no.  She certainly was able to go stand on the corner by Subway every day, so getting there would not be an issue, but she couldn't work there for an honest paycheck?  My roommate flipped burgers at McDonalds for how many years because we needed the money and that was all he could get.  Now he fries chicken and makes gourmet pretzels.

I never once said that everyone was gaming the system, but people do.  And you know what, yeah, that leaves less for me and anyone else who does need the assistance.  The cashiers I've spoken to see it because they work there every day and see what people buy.  They ring up a hundred or so dollars of snack foods for people, and see them swipe an EBT card.  Then a few days later they are ringing the same people up for actual groceries and see them use credit and debit cards.  Stock people help them to their Hummers and sports cars that are shiny and expensive with their junk. 

How the hell one single person gets like $150 in SNAP every month blows my mind because I did not game the system and I get $89.  When I moved to the place I was in last year I reported the changes like I was supposed to.  My rent had gone up, and yet somehow I got a letter saying my SNAP benefits had gone from $82 down to $20... I shit you not.  I called up my caseworker and asked what the hell.  She re did everything in her system.  I went back up to $70, still less with higher rent. 

In high school I dated someone whose mother was gaming the system.  They lived in public housing.  Her income was child support, SNAP, cash benefits, and SSI for her middle child who was autistic.  She claimed she could not sit or stand for long periods of time, therefore could not work.  Funny, because every time I was there she did nothing but sit at her computer.  She could've gotten some kind of desk job.  My roommate is now friends with the middle autistic child because they worked together at McDonalds for a while.  He said his mother taught him how to game the system too, but he wanted to work.  His older brother, the guy I dated for a short time, he did follow mommy's advice and worked the system too. 

So no, I am not making wild assumptions based on nothing.   

Serephino, I am not sure if you missed what I last posted. SNAP is a supplemental tool - you are not suppose to use it to buy all your groceries for a month.  It is meant to be used in conjunction with your own money to get you to a percentage of 30% of your income going towards food.  That means, all these people you know getting mad at seeing people use EBT one week and their own credit cards/debit cards the next week, really have no clue how SNAP is suppose to work.

And again. it's none of their damn business what kind of vehicle the person using the EBT has. Or what kind of clothes. Or what kind of phone.  I am walking, talking proof that you can have a damn nice car, really nice clothes, a nice phone, and nice jewelry and get assistance.  It's called having had the money to buy those nice things before the bottom fell out.

As for what is bought with EBT, I may not approve of how some people choose to eat - but if you are going to bitch and complain about what they buy, you are no better than the government trying to say they should decide what everyone eats.

[Ket]

So no, I am not making wild assumptions based on nothing.   

But, you are. Unless you went out to that 'brand new car' and actually saw the registration and compared it to the person's name on their license, you have no idea where that car came from. They could have borrowed it from a better off family member or neighbor or friend. They could have bought that car and then a couple of months later lost their job forcing them to need assistance until they got another job. Unless you ask them, which is rather rude, you just don't know. So, yes, you are making wild assumptions based on nothing.

As far as junk food is concerned...there are two issues. One, it's cheaper. Two, it has more calories, and calories equal energy. When a person is working two or three jobs which are more than likely physically demanding jobs, eating healthier foods throughout the day is not going to provide them the caloric intake for the same cost that junk food is.

Junk food is subsidized in the US, which is why it is so much cheaper than much healthier fresh foods.

Being able to buy seeds/partially grown plants on SNAP is great...if you have the space to grow them. Many do not, as they live in apartments with no balconies.

Even though it is intended to be a supplemental program, for many, the only way they are able to purchase food is with their SNAP benefits. I'll use myself as an example. I'm on disability. I get $772.10 a month. My rent is $525. That leaves me $247.10 to pay my electric and gas bills, plus get food for the month. My electric and gas bills gobble up that $247. I receive $102 in SNAP benefits. Please, tell me how you expect me to purchase enough healthy food for $100 to get me through the month? It's impossible. Even if I eat mostly vegetarian meals and limit myself to one meal a day. Which is seriously unhealthy for both my epilepsy and diabetes. Do you see the problem?

No one knows everyone's story. Until you do, you only have what you can see at face value. Judging those things you see at face value because they don't fit some strict narrative of what a poor person should look like, be driving, or purchasing is why we have such a stigma around being poor in this country in the first place.

[Oniya]

Being able to buy seeds/partially grown plants on SNAP is great...if you have the space to grow them. Many do not, as they live in apartments with no balconies.

My mother-in-law is in HUD housing - even those people with balconies aren't allowed to put plants on them.

[Ket]

My mother-in-law is in HUD housing - even those people with balconies aren't allowed to put plants on them.

What asinine reason could they possibly give for that? Other than poor people aren't allowed to enjoy life.

[Serephino]

Okay then...  I do know that things like car insurance are typically based on things like the value of the vehicle.  Even really dumb things like the color of the car can come into play.  Let's say your argument is true, and they had the brand new Hummer because they had the money once, and then just fell on hard times.  If they are still making payments, those payments would still be high.  Insurance is a requirement in this state, so insuring such a vehicle would be costly.  So if they have fallen on such hard times that they truly need the assistance, would it not make better sense to trade the expensive car in for something more modest? 

I did read the part about it only being supplemental, but did you read the part about how no one I know of eats chips and dip for a meal?  Snacks are nice, I won't argue that.  And I know, people aren't always taught to eat well.  When my dad was alive my mom always had a good meal on the table for dinner.  After he died she had to get better jobs that required more hours, and it was just her and I, so we ended up getting a lot of frozen and packaged junk instead of decent food.  I am also well aware of the fact that pre packaged junk is cheaper than healthier food.  There have been times, especially when S was working at McDonalds only 20 hours a week for barely more than minimum wage, that I've had to buy enough food to feed us for two weeks, and it was a lot of hamburger helper, mac and cheese, hot dogs...

What it seems that keeps being missed here is that my frustration is with the people who buy things that aren't meals, and only those things.  We're talking ice cream, oreos, chocolate bars, various other cookies, chips, dips....  Again, chips and dip is not a meal.  Now, S really loves oreos.  I mean, you have no idea his obsession with those little chocolate cookie sandwiches, especially the mint ones that are out around Christmas time.  But if we are grocery shopping, and after I'm done picking out what we need that will actually feed us, if he wants oreos but there's no room in the budget for them, I tell him as much, and to put them back.  So far he has not died from oreo deprivation.

Even though, as you said the program is meant as a supplement, if a family can afford to spend their entire SNAP allotment on chips, dip, ice cream, and cookies, things that are more a luxury and do not feed you, and then feed themselves with their own money just fine, do they really need the assistance?  I certainly can't do that.  While, yes, I usually do allow myself one bag of tortilla chips and a container of guacamole as a guilty pleasure, I'm more focused on what to put on the table at meal times.  On food stamp day I go into the store and first I get what we need; milk, cereal, chicken, my Hot Pockets of course...  If, and only if there is any left over after I am sure we will be fed, do I go for the junk.  There have been times where I was not able to get my chips and guacamole.  But I did get actual meal food, so even though I wasn't happy, I survived.       

[Ket]

On food stamp day I go into the store and first I get what we need; milk, cereal, chicken, my Hot Pockets of course...     

Hot Pockets are a processed junk food. The way you write it here, you are saying that they are a necessity for you. So you are complaining about people doing the exact same thing you are doing.

You DON'T know what they have done in other shopping trips. They may have bought cartfuls of totally healthy food before buying the junk. They may have bought their healthy food at a store where it is cheaper (this is something I do). The thing is, you just don't know. You are basing things off hearsay from cashiers. Hearsay is notoriously incomplete in the truth.

It is time I take a step back from this conversation.

[Oniya]

What asinine reason could they possibly give for that? Other than poor people aren't allowed to enjoy life.

Not sure - they won't allow window A/C units either.  Lots of the residents still use them and just hide them away when the HUD inspector is coming by.  We were going to get her one of those container tomato plants, since produce in New England is so expensive (very few places for the trucks to park).

[Fury Aphrodisia]

It seems to me that we have two different conversations going here. One is more generalized and the other is far more specific.

It seems to be the consensus of most that generally leaving people alone to buy what they're going to buy and eat what they're going to eat is the live-and-let-live that is ideal for a harmonious society. It seems to me that Seraphino and I are talking specifically about situations in which you think or know that someone is gaming the system. That's what it comes down to. Serephino and I are saying "It irks me when someone cheats." And to us, everyone else is saying "That's judgemental, mind your own business."

Now, this is where I see the conversation breaking down. I think for my own part at least, that I'm seeing a whole bunch of people telling me "You're not allowed to care about that without being a terrible person. Let them get away with it, they might have had a hard time." For myself, that is never, ever going to be a thing. I was born a crusader and I have always been, might as well charge Pompeii with manslaughter, it's gonna be just as effective. If I see someone taking advantage of what is charitable processes and by doing so take away from people who are actually suffering, there is literally no force in the world that will make me leave it be.

I perceive those who are encouraging silence on the issue to be contributing to the problem. As a community, it is our duty to look out for each other, which also means from threats within the community as much as outside of it. Should I not be angry when someone swerves across four lanes of traffic and nearly clips the corner of a minivan full of kids while the swerver is doing upwards of a hundred and twenty? Maybe he didn't see them, maybe he's in a rush to an emergency, maybe he, maybe he, maybe he.... maybe I don't give a shit.

Should I not be angry when I see a woman in scrubs wheeling an old man down the hallway and when he asks her to pause a moment, she snaps at him and jerks the chair to a stop and walks away? Maybe he'd been particularly annoying, maybe in his dementia he'd said something horrible to her, maybe she's having a really bad morning, or having flashbacks, maybe she, maybe she, maybe she.... maybe I don't give a shit.

Should I be angry at someone who shoots up a school and ends the lives of people around them? Maybe he was bullied, maybe he was crazy, maybe he'd had a hard life and his dad had beaten him, maybe he, maybe he, maybe he.... I really don't give a shit.

I'm talking about breaking the law in a way that hurts people around you. No matter what excuses you use, it's not right. And hell yeah, I'm gonna be mad about that. It's what drives me to stand for everyone here at Elliquiy if they're being attacked by other people, too.

Am I calling for a lynch mob? No. Am I saying we should march over and verbally abuse them? Absolutely not, that would be a terrible thing to do. Did I already say that slashing tires wasn't cool and was absolutely a fire-able offense? Sure did. I'm not saying treat them like shit, or even approach them. If you're going to take action, make it an action of justice, not vengeance. Speak to someone who will ascertain the truth before something is done that could adversely affect those people.

But I'm also saying that at no point is the thought of someone breaking the law and hurting people, no matter how severe or mild the infraction, something I will apologize for being angry about. An injustice is an injustice and I simply do not understand how people of such high moral fiber and great depth of compassion as I know you all to be can fail to see that mindset for what it really is.

[Fury Aphrodisia]

And to be clear, I'm also not saying we should judge for ourselves what the life of someone is by the way they are perceived in the few moments we encounter them in public. I've given up on that one, given how the goalposts keep shifting and new information keeps wandering out from unrealized corners and I'm just not.

But I'm not budging on the ones where I actually literally know the people myself and know what their lives are like and I reserve the right to be pissed off about those ones.

[Ket]

Report them. The SNAP program has anonymous reporting for reasons. They take these things seriously.

If it's not SNAP they are abusing, report them to the authorities of whatever it is they are taking advantage of. Your local food bank distribution office, whatever charity it is that is handing out food/goods.

When no one reports, nothing happens to stop the fraud.

[Fury Aphrodisia]

Agreed. Like I said, make it an action of justice. But I also don't think being lectured about being angry about abuses and calling it part of the problem is any less destructive.

[Serephino]

What Fury said.  I feel like what I am trying to convey just isn't quite getting across.  Maybe part of the problem is the blurred definition of the word junk.  I did say that in my first post on this subject that one man's junk is another man's dinner.  I am not at all talking about my Hot Pockets, or Hamburger Helper, or anything that constitutes a meal for someone.  What I am referring to is dessert and between meal snacks... treats.  Would treats be a better word?  Perhaps it just seems too ludicrous that someone would do such a thing, but yes, there are people that buy nothing but treats with their SNAP benefits, and then feed themselves with their own money.

I was raised to believe that things like ice cream were an optional thing.  First you worry about breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Then if you have enough money left over you buy the treats.  It seems to me that if you can blow benefits entirely on treats then you don't really need the assistance. 
   

[SweetSerenade]

So I do not usually step into discussions like these, but this is one that is very near and dear to my heart. My family survives off of SNAP because it's the only real option we have. We get some supplemental help through WIC as well, because my daughter is 4. Now the thing is, food is expensive - and to make meals (that often take time that not everyone as) can sometimes get expensive as well. Especially if you want them to be healthy and filling. Because of the area we live in getting cheap fruits and veggies is really hard, especially in the Winter months. The only time they are really available for cheap prices is when the Farmers Market is open. So I have a choice, I can buy those fruit snacks for my daughter, and have several compound snacks for her, or I can spent the nearly 10-15$ the same number of varied 'fruit snacks' that people have suggested I make from scratch would cost. I have a choice, get what is cheap and easy and I know has most of what she needs - or get expensive and cut out somewhere else. My family survives off of a lot of chicken, sometimes we get beef and fish - but not as often as we should.

We get 400$ a month of SNAP starting in March. It is me, my husband, and our daughter. My daughter always has food, even when me and her father don't. There are some days that so are so stressful, with my husband's job cutting him back to 20 hours a week - but scheduling him in ways it would make it nearly impossible for him to get a second part time job in the local area (Because it's an extra 100$ a month for him to get a job that's farther away, and then extra money being spent because he has to make lunches to take to his second job.) - So to have someone judge me for getting chips and dip (because that is literally the easiest thing I can snag from the mini-mart before I rush off to class) is really painful. I know I don't eat as well as I should, but I prioritize my daughter - and I'm already racked by enough guilt when someone gives me the "judging you" look when I slide my foodstamps for the two coffees and the chips and dips I buy every time I have an on campus class.

Because those coffees are part of the reason I'm surviving my sleep deprivation, and making my way through my college classes. The college classes putting me in debt. But I do it because of the fact that I have a hope, a goal, to get my family to a better life. Because I HATE the stigma that is placed upon us for needing help, because our society turns our lives into some sort of... Public spectacle because most of us were born poor. With things set up the way they are I see it like this...


The whole SNAP debate is another distraction tactic by the Rich in our country, it makes citizens turn against each other - and thusly making it easier for the classist overtones now manifesting in our country slink back into the shadows. They want us fighting with each other, because then we don't unite and turn on them. The problem isn't SNAP Users, the problem is the broken system that points to someone and goes "You were born Poor,  you will always be poor. No matter how hard you work, being born this way can only be changed if you manage to inheret money - get a REALLY good deal in life - or win the lottery. Good luck being poor."

[Oniya]

So, what if these people put the 'real groceries that they bought with their own money' on the SNAP card and bought the 'treats that they bought with their benefits' with their own money?  Same amount of food being bought, same amount of benefits being used, same type of food being bought - but the difference is that you (or the cashier) doesn't see the SNAP card being handed over?

Just curious if that would make a difference.

[greenandgold]

My side of this discussion only comes from experiences I've had while grocery shopping. The lady that I mentioned earlier that has a Mercedes, I don't know all of the details of her situation, you're right. But I feel like I do know enough. I've been behind her in the check out lines enough times to know that she's gaming the system and damn good at it. She's always talking on one of the newest cell phone's that come out. And she's not quiet, either. Talking about, "Oh, I just got a new Iphone." (Whatever the latest one is) And, "I got my new car last week, the Mercedes I told you about last month. Oh, I gotta go. The line's moving and I need my foodstamps card." 

I honestly wanted to smack this woman. Her entire cart was full of crap. Not even boxed meals, like hamburger helper or whatever it's called. It was literally filled with soda, ice cream, candy, snack cakes. And then this woman had the gall to boast about how she was screwing over her kid's father in child support, just to get more money. The last time she did this in front of me, was two weekends ago. I ended up getting so irritated that I left my basket in the line and left the store. I called my caseworker the following Monday and asked what the procedure was to report someone that I thought was taking advantage of the program, and she literally told me to mind my own business and that if someone was abusing the system they would know it. Suffice it to say, I was really pissed off that day.

[DominantPoet]

I'm getting my information from Walmart cashiers.  I personally know someone who was fired over their anger.  These people had him help them to their car with 2 carts full of quite literally nothing but ice cream, soda, chips, and dip.  Those are snacks, no meals in there.  At least, I don't know anyone who has chips and dip with a chocolate bar for a meal.  What threw him over the edge was that their vehicle was a brand new Hummer.  You know how expensive those cars are?  They can afford a 2015 Hummer, but they can't afford food?  He slashed their tires.

People who actually do need the assistance, and buy cupcakes for a birthday, that doesn't bother me in the least.  One day when we were in Subway there was a Walmart cashier in there on his lunch break and we had passed a woman on the corner with a sign begging for money.  The Subway employee said his boss had gone out there the day before when she was there and offered her a job.  Granted, making sandwiches is not a glamorous job, but if you're really that bad off...  She said no.  She certainly was able to go stand on the corner by Subway every day, so getting there would not be an issue, but she couldn't work there for an honest paycheck?  My roommate flipped burgers at McDonalds for how many years because we needed the money and that was all he could get.  Now he fries chicken and makes gourmet pretzels.

I never once said that everyone was gaming the system, but people do.  And you know what, yeah, that leaves less for me and anyone else who does need the assistance.  The cashiers I've spoken to see it because they work there every day and see what people buy.  They ring up a hundred or so dollars of snack foods for people, and see them swipe an EBT card.  Then a few days later they are ringing the same people up for actual groceries and see them use credit and debit cards.  Stock people help them to their Hummers and sports cars that are shiny and expensive with their junk. 

How the hell one single person gets like $150 in SNAP every month blows my mind because I did not game the system and I get $89.  When I moved to the place I was in last year I reported the changes like I was supposed to.  My rent had gone up, and yet somehow I got a letter saying my SNAP benefits had gone from $82 down to $20... I shit you not.  I called up my caseworker and asked what the hell.  She re did everything in her system.  I went back up to $70, still less with higher rent. 

In high school I dated someone whose mother was gaming the system.  They lived in public housing.  Her income was child support, SNAP, cash benefits, and SSI for her middle child who was autistic.  She claimed she could not sit or stand for long periods of time, therefore could not work.  Funny, because every time I was there she did nothing but sit at her computer.  She could've gotten some kind of desk job.  My roommate is now friends with the middle autistic child because they worked together at McDonalds for a while.  He said his mother taught him how to game the system too, but he wanted to work.  His older brother, the guy I dated for a short time, he did follow mommy's advice and worked the system too. 

So no, I am not making wild assumptions based on nothing.   

See, this is precisely what I'm talking about. First off, you mention that said person slashed someone else's tires purely because they were driving a Hummer. Once again - he assumed they OWNED it, took it as a fact, then decided to act on that. Slashing someone's tires is trouble enough in and of itself for going grocery shopping, of all things, but the reasoning behind it is just asinine. Even IF he knew for a fact it was theirs, that doesn't justify his reaction in the least. But again - you didn't mention whether said person did or not.

It sounds to me like you're quick to assume things about people you deem suspicious, based on your past interactions with people who were, unfortunately, more than willing to game the system, and your own personal issues with said system. I'm not going to sit here and try and pretend everyone is somehow a saint or anything, there's a lot of devious, soul less people out there who will do anything they can for whatever it is they want to acquire.

But regardless of personal experiences with others and what not, our first inclination really should not be to assume the worst of anyone.

One last thing - having worked in food service for a good third of my life, I can honestly say that I'd much rather beg on the streets than take any kind of job like that ever again. Hell, I'd rather be a test subject in a laboratory than ever do that again. So-called "honest" work is great and all, but a food service job is on the worst forms of employment one can have.

[DominantPoet]

But I'm also saying that at no point is the thought of someone breaking the law and hurting people, no matter how severe or mild the infraction, something I will apologize for being angry about. An injustice is an injustice and I simply do not understand how people of such high moral fiber and great depth of compassion as I know you all to be can fail to see that mindset for what it really is.

Have you ever been falsely accused of something? To the point where you feel like, absolutely nobody is listening to you, despite the fact YOU know for certain you did nothing wrong, but somehow, through unfortunate circumstances or what not, you are the most likely culprit in others eyes? Because that's rather my problem in general in this discussion. And the way you talk about being angry towards people, even at the expense, it seems, of knowing for sure, is certainly an issue, to me.

When I was about 19 years old, I was working at a Subway place that was owned by a franchisee. She had about three stores in total. We routinely would do cash drops into a safe in the store, much as any place does, I imagine. There was one day where I was working, and I did a cash drop. I took the receipt, I put it with the money, and I put the money in a sandwich bag, which is what we used, and I tossed it on the back counter because we had a huge rush come in, and I just wanted to get the cash out of the register, namely because it was coded to not do any transactions until you did a drop.

The drop went missing. That is to say, it was put into the safe, but there was no money IN the bag. To this day, I have no clue what happened to that money, it was about 400 some odd dollars. All I know is I, personally, never took it. I didn't even sign it and put it in the safe, it was simply in the safe by the time that rush was done, and I didn't give it a second thought. UNTIL -

I was informed that I was being brought into the police for questioning in regards to said drop. In fact, EVERYONE who worked at said Subway, was being brought in for questioning. It was the first, and has so far been the ONLY time in my life, I have been interrogated. It's not a fun thing to go through, trust me. Anyways, through the interrogation, it was implied they had security footage of me taking the money (they didn't). It was then outright claimed after I refused to confess, that they had security footage of me taking the money. It was then eventually asked if I would be proven innocent, if I were to be hooked up to a polygraph test. Thankfully, it never came to that.

They had no security footage. They installed cameras shortly AFTER, of course. I quit, as did everyone else. Tends to happen when you accuse your entire staff of robbing you without evidence. But the problem was, everyone else thought I did it, save for the person I was working with that day. They were angry at me. They BLAMED me. They didn't know for sure, but they assumed, and they felt justified none the less.

I lost people that I thought were friends over that.

Unless you KNOW, unequivocally, with ABSOLUTE certainty, then you shouldn't be directing anger at these people. If you know for CERTAIN, by all means - go nuts, they deserve it.

And that's the tricky thing, is differentiating when you know for certain, and when you've convinced yourself that you know. I mean, I have two brothers I grew up with who are younger than me, we would get in fights all the time and lash out at one another over things we thought we knew for sure had been done by one of the other two. And I see a LOT of adults in this day and age, who convince themselves they know, as opposed to actually knowing.

Past this, I have nothing more to say about any of this in general. I've more than said my peace on this subject in general at this point.

[Fury Aphrodisia]

All of your stories are interesting appeals to emotion, but nothing more.

From the point of view of someone who works with law enforcement, I see that as a particularly unpleasant but in the end not spectacularly damaging story. It's not like you were charged, or treated in some illegal fashion or had to stand trial. You weren't punished. You were just heavily suspected of being the person who stole a large sum of money because you were the person responsible for it when it went missing. It's not a distant leap and frankly, those are the consequences of your actions. Don't do the thing properly = consequences. I don't really sympathize with you, the best you'll get from me is "Yeah, that sucks, particularly since you didn't have the benefit of an extra four hundred dollars."

I'm getting a little tired of the condescension from you, honestly. You're absolutely refusing to hear anything anyone is saying to you. The hypocritical part of lecturing other people on knowing before you do anything and the fact that you refuse to believe anyone knows anything is made clear in the fact that you are in turn leaping to conclusions that are further exacerbated by being directly in contradiction to the information you have already been given. This speaks to me as a willful ignorance in order to perpetuate your own point. You're not playing fair and simply looking to lecture people and it's starting to piss me the fuck off.

You're not the only one who grew up with brothers, I fail to see what that anecdote is supposed to prove to me whatsoever. Clearly if there's three of you and something happens and you're all blaming each other, two of you are in the right and one of you is not. Being angry at whomever is not is a perfectly justified reaction, and also perfectly natural. Nothing you have presented as part of your lecturing rambling has been able to effectively provide any sort of evidence for your judgements about people you perceive as being judgemental, so in the end, it's all just...

Pointless.

[DominantPoet]

I hear what's being said to me. I just don't happen to agree with it in the least. That doesn't mean I don't understand the mindset that leads to the outlooks...just means I don't agree with them. Nothing more.

As for the brothers' thing, I'd explain, but you'd probably just get pissed off more or think I'm trying to lecture you. Suffice to say, and as you put, it would be pointless.

And lastly, I don't tell personal stories to look for sympathy.

Not sure how you think I'm not playing fair though, much of what you said about me and how you view me is how I similarly view you, so. I'm just offering my thoughts, feelings, and outlooks on the subject. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm not playing fair in any sense of the word.

[Fury Aphrodisia]

In particular you are given that you continue to lecture about information you have already received and continue to ignore. You have deliberately and arbitrarily discounted the corrections you have received several times, failing to acknowledge the information before returning to the previous lecturing points that were met and addressed the last time you expounded on them.

Whether you view it similarly or not, the fact remains that I have had the courtesy to at least address all of your points as they have been presented, a courtesy that you have not afforded Serephino in the least. I don't care if you don't answer me, I rarely if ever expect anyone to be genuine or polite. That you would do so to someone else irks me. Somehow, you seem to be conflating opinion with fact, which makes you a dangerous person in general and specifically disingenuous.

Thankfully, as with the "I don't believe they're natural responses at all" comment that tells me you obviously did not study evolutionary psychology, the facts do not care about your personal convictions. Opinions are, essentially, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

While you were busy lecturing redundantly, the rest of us managed to find our way to common ground and move and grow organically with the conversation. I'm unsure why you haven't seen fit to follow the flow of that particular tide, but as of my directly previous post, my patience with you has worn thin. As such, my deference, respect and over-polite manner are not yours to benefit from anymore.

[delle]

Not sure if this is off-topic, but I'm pretty sure a hundred bucks a month can cover it for food.

The boyfriend does it. 20-25 bucks a week on groceries. Three meals a day, each meal consisting of a microwaved-chicken-and-cabbage wrap and a tomato. When I first met him, I actually wondered if he was that poor, but no. Doctor told him to watch his cholesterol level, so that's all he eats. He told me it's livable, just not terribly exciting. Though I suppose if you really love your food, this has gotta be the most depressing diet ever.

He does have his vices though. Coffee and cigarettes. And me.  ;D

[Fury Aphrodisia]

It's important to remember, Delle, that there are price variances all over the place. I know that where I live, a hundred bucks a month might cover meat for eight meals, and then you're out of luck. However, two hours north of me, a hundred bucks a month will easily feed three people comfortably. Big cities are more expensive, generally speaking, than comparable rural communities. The cost of living differs from region to region. I would say that it was unfair, perhaps, to decide that someone should be able to get by on a particular amount.

You make a good point, though I'm not sure if you intended it or not. Health concerns do play a significant part of grocery provisions. Someone living on a hundred dollars a month could conceivably do it in chips and dip and pop (which, to be fair, goes on sale very frequently) but the health concerns that would result from that, especially in an American health system, would be disastrous for multiple generations. Thus the obesity problem in the US, at least in part.

I fully approve of the vices, though! Maybe he can use some of those sweet, sweet cabbage (ugh!) and tomato savings doing fun things with you!

[Ket]

Not sure if this is off-topic, but I'm pretty sure a hundred bucks a month can cover it for food.

Much of it depends on where you live. Prices vary for the same foods in different parts of the country. For example, in California, avocados are exceedingly inexpensive. Where I live in PA, one avocado can run up to $3 at times.

Then you also have food deserts where people have no access to a true grocery store or any sort of farmer's market. My city itself has plenty of neighborhoods that are food deserts, because within the city limits we actually only have two grocery stores (the rest are in surrounding townships), and it's not always feasible to take the bus to grocery shop. Nor is taking a cab, because of the expense.

So, yes, it technically is possible for one person to eat for $100 a month. But it's not always something that can actually happen.

[DominantPoet]

@Fury -

1) You have had no such courtesy, I would point you to my post at 16 in the thread and then your post in 17 right after it where you basically ignored everything I said, calling it a lost cause, and told me to be "as I was". Thank you very much.

2) I have addressed everything Serephino has said in response to my posts to him to the best of my ability, and to where I thought it might be something we could come to terms on, if nothing else.

3) Since you are basically attacking me personally at this point, I shall not be replying to anything you say to me, period, from this point on. Rant away if you wish.