In case of apocalypse...

[Mathim]

I agree with Ty the DN Guy, we're doomed no matter who gets voted in; a better candidate would just probably delay the inevitable.

I might get chided for asking this, but seriously, do any of you really want to live in a world where it's like a post-apocalyptic hellhole? I say fuck that, I'd borrow my friend's revolver and blow my brains out. All my life I've been struggling to work toward a meaningful future. If I find out that future's never going to happen and my life will be absolutely devoted to struggle just to keep myself alive, it's not going to be worth it.

I mean, my friend and I both firmly believe that within the next few years society is growing to crumble under the weight of overpopulation and poverty and it's going to be worse than a zombie apocalypse. And I pretty much believe that it's too late for even Obama to do any real good. We'll never be able to rebuild once we lose everything, what's the point in trying? We'll just be proving what failures we are by surviving.

[Valerian]

Wow.  And I thought I was a pessimist.

You may be right about this imminent fate, you may be wrong.  But if you're seriously going to talk like that and live every day like disaster is a foregone conclusion, then you and your friend should find a nice hole to crawl into right now.  Why wait?

[Moondazed]

Aren't you Suzie Sunshine! ;)

You're free to do what you feel is necessary as far as your life is concerned, but I think it's a pretty sad shirking of personal responsibility to take the easy way out and just throw up one's hands.  It's possible that a meteor will hit this planet at any point, what if our ancestors had done what you propose and just said, "Fuck it, what's the point?".  We wouldn't have computers, let alone forums like this to find people of like mind.  The trouble with pessimism is that it's no more right than optimism, the odds are the same either way, so what is the point of choosing the pessimistic path?  That's a rhetorical question, for the record.  I don't want to pull the thread off topic :)

[The Overlord]

I might get chided for asking this, but seriously, do any of you really want to live in a world where it's like a post-apocalyptic hellhole? I say fuck that, I'd borrow my friend's revolver and blow my brains out. All my life I've been struggling to work toward a meaningful future. If I find out that future's never going to happen and my life will be absolutely devoted to struggle just to keep myself alive, it's not going to be worth it.

I tend to agree here, and what I'm about to say is anything but pretty, but if it gets that bad, it's only going to be because as a species that we fracked things up. Only because the 'haves' of society messed it all up to Hell and back. If a future where we get back into synch with the planet and go to a space-faring species never happens, someone's going to pay dearly. I have plenty of plans myself.


If things degenerate to the point that suicide is an option, I'm not going out alone. You can bank on that shit.

[Moondazed]

If things degenerate to the point that suicide is an option, I'm not going out alone. You can bank on that shit.

*eyeroll*  Very mature, OL.

[The Overlord]

*eyeroll*  Very mature, OL.

Yep. There's an unasked-for opinion.

Mature got nothing to do with it...hypothetically, if things get that bad, to a 'post-apocalyptic hellhole', none of this will matter anyway.


And you know it.

[Moondazed]

It's the implication that at the point your life seems meaningless you'll make that choice for others that I was referring to.

[The Overlord]

It's the implication that at the point your life seems meaningless you'll make that choice for others that I was referring to.

If we're all that bad off, then the choice of own lives will have been made by others. I'm talking the big business, big government etc. that are driving us there. The executives, leaders and soulless lawyers that are getting fat off it.

Two wrongs may indeed not make a right, but one good screw deserves another.


I won't debate a fully hypothetical situation any further....let's all hope none of us ever see it come to pass.

[Valerian]

Two wrongs may indeed not make a right, but one good screw deserves another.

Yeah, because there's such a huge difference there.

However, the main thing I'd like to point out is that by posting your opinion here, you are by implication welcoming the opinions of others.  So no jumping on others for simply expressing those opinions, please.

[The Overlord]

Yeah, because there's such a huge difference there.

However, the main thing I'd like to point out is that by posting your opinion here, you are by implication welcoming the opinions of others.  So no jumping on others for simply expressing those opinions, please.

No problem, but don't expect anyone to change my perspective on it. We are talking about the worst-case apocalyptic scenario here...it's not going to be a picnic by any means.

At that point nothing will be accountable anyway, unless you believe in an afterlife judgement...but if you ask me, at that point God will have forsaken us all anyway. Don't expect me to care, I've lost my father to people just like we're debating.

[Zakharra]

If things degenerate to the point that suicide is an option, I'm not going out alone. You can bank on that shit.

So you will murder some people you lay the blame on, then kill yourself?   ???  Killing to defend your family is one thing, but for revenge? Not good.

[Mathim]

What I was trying to say was, I'd rather kill myself than let some thugs who are trying rob me when the population is starving do it for me, you know? That's all I meant. When people are rioting in the streets and murdering each other for what little scraps of food are left and the entire continent looks like one giant Escape From New York: the Unrated Version, I don't want to have to fight. It's pointless.

So you will murder some people you lay the blame on, then kill yourself?     Killing to defend your family is one thing, but for revenge? Not good.

Says who? In the French Revolution, killing the aristocracy was the best thing the proles ever did. People who value money over human life deserve to be exterminated, and brutally. And in a world-ending scenario, there's no longer such a thing as morality.

[The Overlord]

Says who? In the French Revolution, killing the aristocracy was the best thing the proles ever did. People who value money over human life deserve to be exterminated, and brutally. And in a world-ending scenario, there's no longer such a thing as morality.

For the record I tend to agree here. And yes, snuffing out despots like this might indeed be 'pushing your own moral values on someone else', but we're talking about people who have already done this to how many others, what is the alternative, to let them live and possibly do it again? Somebody has to make the hard choice sometimes.


Where I feel many people fail critically on this topic is that they always have to justify a 'we're better than them so we can't do that' philosophy...in a certain sense this is flawed because it's a lofty sense of personal moral importance and perhaps even a bit of keeping up with the Jones’s. It's a major failing of human civilization that people feel they have a better moral judgement, or have a deity on their side, etc.


Sometime grim necessity takes hold; sometimes you simply have to do what you have to do. In my view right versus wrong can't always be applied to all dilemmas. If we see a lion taking down a baby gazelle on a National Geographic episode we have the aww factor and say how bad nature can be, but nature isn't good or bad it just is. Likewise we can argue that this is simply human nature, despite how we simply love to distance ourselves from nature, we revert to that animal brain time and again.

Civilization, and the term civilized, are human constructs: As yet we have no idea if they are unique to us until we can meet another advanced species. I say the same with morality, with the sense of right vs. wrong; we have no clue if it 'really' exists, or is merely a human construct.

I realize this is a major derailment but I feel the need to say it. Sometime what is...just is.

[Valerian]

Mathim: So the French Revolution was a good thing, even though so many hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people who had nothing to do with oppressing anyone were also brutally killed?  Only a small fraction of those killed were actually aristocrats.

Where I feel many people fail critically on this topic is that they always have to justify a 'we're better than them so we can't do that' philosophy...in a certain sense this is flawed because it's a lofty sense of personal moral importance and perhaps even a bit of keeping up with the Jones’s. It's a major failing of human civilization that people feel they have a better moral judgement, or have a deity on their side, etc.

Well, there's that view... and then there's my personal view, which is that I don't feel qualified to decide who's evil enough to be shot dead in the street or poisoned or guillotined.  My moral judgment is my own.  I don't impress my morals or values on other people.

What makes you feel that you would be qualified to decide who should live and who should die?  I realize that sounds sarcastic, but it's a genuine question.  Or is your argument that once civilization starts to crumble, anyone can decide because morality ceases to matter?

[Inkidu]

Well I mean shooting yourself in case of post-apocalyptic hellhole is probably a good idea unless there really is a real hell (hole) then the former was looking pretty good now wasn't it? :D

[MagicalPen]

Well, the World is going to End on Dec 23rd, 2012....so does it really matter in the end? Zombies, Nuclear War, Asteroid, Overpopulation, World War III - pick your poison! Presently, with current Global Affairs (namely the situation in Russia/Georgia etc) I am leaning towards World War III resulting in a Nuclear Holocaust that will end things.

[The Overlord]

Mathim: So the French Revolution was a good thing, even though so many hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people who had nothing to do with oppressing anyone were also brutally killed?  Only a small fraction of those killed were actually aristocrats.
Well, there's that view... and then there's my personal view, which is that I don't feel qualified to decide who's evil enough to be shot dead in the street or poisoned or guillotined.  My moral judgment is my own.  I don't impress my morals or values on other people.

What makes you feel that you would be qualified to decide who should live and who should die?  I realize that sounds sarcastic, but it's a genuine question.  Or is your argument that once civilization starts to crumble, anyone can decide because morality ceases to matter?

Oh it is a genuine question, but a lot of times people just don't want to bear the mental or psychological burden of it, so they push it off on something else, typically religion. Saying that God is ultimately going to judge us all in the end.


The problem is, we have absolutely no proof of this, not a single shred of evidence that this is so, only blind faith for some of us. In the meantime, what do we propose to do with them? Whether you call them wicked or not, at points we have people that simply offer no valuable asset to society, they are capable only of death and misery.

If civilization does crumble in a full-on apocalypse, I imply that morality will not matter at that point, because with that veneer of civilization pulled out from under us we'll have blown it. We'll have shown the universe that might be watching that we're really just animals after all.

We'll turn on each other like wolves, once we start running out of the basic essentials, food, water, shelter, etc. If we watch a bear and a lion maul each other for a carcass to feed on, we'll call it nature, and that's what we'll revert to in such a nightmarish scenario. Some of you may genuinely reason against that philosophy, but other simply won't accept it because it offends your sensibilities. Some of us can't deal with what rages just under the surface.


Even if some sense of goodwill prevails, it really won't matter...in a post-apocalyptic scenario, it will take us how long to get back just to where we are? Five hundred years? A thousand? More than a thousand? At that point we'll have our proof the human experiment has failed.

In such a situation, possibly a nuclear scenario, we'll not just have pushed ourselves to the brink of existence, but we'll likely have wiped out many other species in the process. At that point we'll have pretty much forfeit our right to continue as a species.

[The Overlord]

Well I mean shooting yourself in case of post-apocalyptic hellhole is probably a good idea unless there really is a real hell (hole) then the former was looking pretty good now wasn't it? :D

If offing yourself to escape from one hell of existence only to be thrown into another by a creator is the case, then I must argue god is mad if not outright evil, and the cosmos at large is a joke.

[Valerian]

As an agnostic, I'm not especially concerned with divine judgment myself, only my own conscience -- even if it's only for my last few minutes on earth, before the zombies or roving bands of crazed survivors or whatever kill me for food.

You keep implying that you could kill if you had to, though, without any moral, religious, or psychological regrets if you felt it was truly necessary; so I was looking for clarification on that.

[Paradox]

Just to break the argument cycle a bit..

[Inkidu]

If offing yourself to escape from one hell of existence only to be thrown into another by a creator is the case, then I must argue god is mad if not outright evil, and the cosmos at large is a joke.

Well if it weren't for the fact that God doesn't throw you in hell. Yes he would be, but statements like your tend to hinge on the free will thing which God decidedly doesn't touch?

[RubySlippers]

I favor the even IF the world starts falling in around us is true and I won't go there since unless Dawn of the Dead happens the collapse could rally humanity as a race to our finest hour. Our species thrives on hardship and being tested its how we grow you can see that over and over.

As for the United States if we had to stand alone we could it would hurt but what nation is the worlds bread basket its not China or Russia or the EU its the United States - same with most other things we have enough coal reserves alone to keep us with power for several decades, uranium for nuclear power and we have oil. Oil could be rationed heavily and changes made to our society to allow travel without cars it would just have to be done thats all. I figure we keep Canada friendly, support Mexico and seal off the Central American land route we could have a nice Fortress North America going on where all the food is. Then use that to keep certain other threatening nations and areas friendly like the Middle East. Give us oil for food and we dictate the terms. Oil is kind of optional food is not. In the end we may have many cards to play as a nation in this case.

[The Overlord]

You keep implying that you could kill if you had to, though, without any moral, religious, or psychological regrets if you felt it was truly necessary; so I was looking for clarification on that.

I'm implying that once everything hits the fan, it really won't matter. Once the basic survival instinct kicks in, our civilized values will largely be kicked to the wayside...it ain't pretty, but there it is.

I'm not saying everyone will do it, but enough will. Shit, I see them announce what might be a hurricane pushing inland here and they all go bat loco nutz and start buying up bread and water. Now, factor in a truly nightmarish scenario, and then factor in that those basics will not be readily at hand.



...what happens next is no real stretch of the imagination. Who here knows the history of Donner Pass? When push comes to shove, we'll do some pretty alarming things to stay alive. Give us a good old-style fire & brimstone apocalypse scenario and once the food runs out, we'll start eating each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_party

[The Overlord]

Well if it weren't for the fact that God doesn't throw you in hell. Yes he would be, but statements like your tend to hinge on the free will thing which God decidedly doesn't touch?

Of course, if free will doesn't exist, then I am drawn to ask how we can ever be truly accountable for our actions.

If there is a god and he made us automatons, then everything that goes down is on him.


If god made us without freewill then will condemn us for alleged wrongdoing…then he is a sick bastard.

[Inkidu]

Of course, if free will doesn't exist, then I am drawn to ask how we can ever be truly accountable for our actions.

If there is a god and he made us automatons, then everything that goes down is on him.


If god made us without freewill then will condemn us for alleged wrongdoing…then he is a sick bastard.

It's a good thing He didn't then.

[Mathim]

Mathim: So the French Revolution was a good thing, even though so many hundreds, maybe even thousands, of people who had nothing to do with oppressing anyone were also brutally killed?

I'm saying I blame the aristocracy and the government for oppressing the people to the point where they would resort to that, and that's exactly the direction this country is headed. So yes, I think those behind the oppression of the masses deserve to be righteously slaughtered.

[Moondazed]

'righteously slaughtered'?  That sounds like the language of zealotry to me. 

You guys need to keep your cool here, please and thank you.

[The Overlord]

It's a good thing He didn't then.

Indeed, it might imply that Shakespeare was right ... All the world's a stage.

[Mathim]

My friend is very insightful and into a lot of mystic stuff and he got me thinking about the Mayan Calendar predicting that the world will end in 2012. I don't necessarily believe that it'll end in some biblical manner, since the world is going downhill already. I think they might have just been able to accurately predict when our stupidity finally kills us and everything (except cockroaches.)

[Apple of Eris]

Wow, so as a lawyer am I one of the people going to be 'righteously slaughtered'?

And on Free Will since that seems to be a popping up theme here: How do you know we have Free Will? Several protestant christian groups argue that we do not. How do you -know- they are wrong and you are right? I mean if God is omnipotent and oniscient it knows everything that is going to happen before it is even going to do anything so it knew what would happen to humanity before it created the universe. *shrug*

And yeah, sometimes we do some terrible stuff to survive, but then again you all argung that point can point to 'donner party' and a few other handful of instances that things like that happened, sure. But what about the hundreds/thousands/millions of instances where we don't turn on each other? When we help one another instead of falling into some stupid every man for themselves bullshit.

Honestly I'm pretty disgusted by this entire topic by now and this self-righteous sounding shit spouted in some sort of effort to pre-justify killing other people or whatever you want to do. Sure, go ahead and try to reassure yourself that you'll 'just be doing what everyone else is doing' and totally miss that YOU are part of the problem and not the solution. If you think things are going to be that bad, why wait around? Just get it over with now.

Personally, I think we'll pull together as a family/village/city/state/country/race and show the best we can be.

[The Overlord]

If you're that disgusted then best step off the topic, before one us says says something we regret.

[Moondazed]

Careful there :)  You can be blunt and express your disgust but no one else can?  Sorry, that's not how it works.

[Apple of Eris]

If you're that disgusted then best step off the topic, before one us says says something we regret.

If you're that disgusted then best step off the planet, before one us says says something we regret.
*shrug*
We can cut both ways with that one.

[Inkidu]

Because the Bible clearly states that humans are given free will. Predestination is flawed in its very idea and not even a part of the Bible. John 3:16 is pretty much the verse that lets you into heaven.
Now that being I believe that God is like a process, always becoming more perfect. That's how we are in his image. Humans have the capacity to become perfect good. In this process he is like massive ripples in a pond, and every one of us is another set of ripple. Satan is a third set of ripples. Each of the two ripple influence us little ripples as we interact with each other. God sees all those ripples and what the can or might do.

Then everyone always rebuttals with, "Why doesn't God just alleviate all the suffering in the world?" Well God is like a parent. As parents you'd love nothing more than to protect and coddle and tell your children what to do in every aspect of their lives because it wouldn't bring suffering. Now this messes with free will. However, any good parent knows they can't do this. They know their children are going to get hurt and hopefully learn from that pain.
So I can imagine God being very sad indeed...
I believe the world will come to an end in much the way Revelations describes. I believe there is no real post-apocalypse, but it is said in the Bible that there will be a time of horrible war, and it makes this one look like a paintball fight.

[RubySlippers]

I have a simple view of this God person in the Judeo-Christian sense ...

If God created Satan and He is al-knowing then He created evil so He then must be more evil than Satan.

If God Hates Satan and is stronger why doesn't He come down and kick Satan's ass?

If Satan is as powerful as God as it seems to me then how can we be sure Hell is bad, all we have as evidence of that is the Bible and religions. Hell could be a fun place after all aren't all the fun sorts going there as well as the bad ones like prostitutes, drug dealers, hedonists, gluttons and the like.

[Moondazed]

Does this topic need to be split again?  Please stay on topic or start a new thread.

[RubySlippers]

Ok lets keep this simple like I pointed out our species like any to advance must have pressures to advance - or we will stagnate. Its due time for our species to have a major shock to see if we can advance to the next level and I believe we will. And what do we in the US have to be concerned about North America is the largest food producer pretty much in the WORLD, why should we starve or have problems. If we need oil and another nation needs food we will have the leverage to get what we need or they starve. China fine they are a threat but also a third world nation in most areas and a huge population that guess what - needs FOOD. Our nuclear arsenal is enough to assure invasion is never going to happen and we can use martial law if necessary for a time to enforce order and ration food, fuel and resources just like WWII.

And when it blows over our species that which is left will be stronger. Its not the US or the industrialized nations in trouble here in the end its the poor nations and I say fuck them if they can't do anything for us. Social evolution will make the best nations and peoples survive the ones fit to survive.

[The Overlord]

Because the Bible clearly states that humans are given free will. Predestination is flawed in its very idea and not even a part of the Bible. John 3:16 is pretty much the verse that lets you into heaven.

Not to try to invalidate all of Christianity, but ultimately, the bible is just a book, and this is just an opinion. Despite claims to the contrary, the book was written by many mortal authors, each with their own agendas. There’s no real evidence to prove this one, some believe their faith is enough to believe it’s true, but believing and knowing are apples and oranges.

Then everyone always rebuttals with, "Why doesn't God just alleviate all the suffering in the world?" Well God is like a parent. As parents you'd love nothing more than to protect and coddle and tell your children what to do in every aspect of their lives because it wouldn't bring suffering. Now this messes with free will. However, any good parent knows they can't do this. They know their children are going to get hurt and hopefully learn from that pain.
So I can imagine God being very sad indeed...

Again, this all fits very conveniently with all the men that wrote the bible could see, and couldn’t see. It’s an easy way to try and explain what they can’t truly understand, and an effective way to peddle it to the masses.

The circumstances as we see them can just as easily direct you to the conclusion that there is no active god in existence at all. I’m not saying no creator at all, just not one in the biblical classic sense, that is this all-knowing, loving father figure that’s watching over us from a distance but doesn’t intervene for the most part. There’s nothing substantial to support this view, and again it just comes down to faith.

[Inkidu]

Not to try to invalidate all of Christianity, but ultimately, the bible is just a book, and this is just an opinion. Despite claims to the contrary, the book was written by many mortal authors, each with their own agendas. There’s no real evidence to prove this one, some believe their faith is enough to believe it’s true, but believing and knowing are apples and oranges.

Again, this all fits very conveniently with all the men that wrote the bible could see, and couldn’t see. It’s an easy way to try and explain what they can’t truly understand, and an effective way to peddle it to the masses.

The circumstances as we see them can just as easily direct you to the conclusion that there is no active god in existence at all. I’m not saying no creator at all, just not one in the biblical classic sense, that is this all-knowing, loving father figure that’s watching over us from a distance but doesn’t intervene for the most part. There’s nothing substantial to support this view, and again it just comes down to faith.

Of course, it comes down to faith. I was just providing an interpretation. 

[Sherona]

*smiles* I believe a SIrens asked you guys to stay ontopic, or move make a new thread if you were going to continue arguing about religion :)

[The Overlord]

Of course, it comes down to faith. I was just providing an interpretation. 

I understand.

[Mathim]

Wow, I missed a lot since my last post.

Apple, take a chill pill, please. When law and order collapses (not if, WHEN) who will punish the guilty? If people have to take the law and justice into their own hands then so be it. If the human race (not bloody likely) survives into the next few generations, those who are used to the haves and have-nots dichotomy and want to keep on being haves and separating themselves from the have-nots while they take advantage of them, then those haves need to be eradicated like the cancerous parasites they are. Not that the have-nots are much better, but still, if there is any hope of redemption for the species and the cosmos aren't just going to stamp us out and be done with it, we need to focus on equality and get rid of the idea that some are better than others. And the worst offenders are the wealthy elite. They need to go; and considering how much suffering they've perpetrated on others, how slowly and painfully is up to the person who ends up killing them.

But they'll be safe on their little private islands when money becomes worthless.

I don't know how we started talking about faith, but this topic shouldn't have much to do with it unless someone is saying that the end of the world is going to be caused by, like, the second coming of Jesus or something. Let's get back on track, shall we?

My friend down in the Bay Area, the ex-military gun fanatic just called me and invited me to join him when the shit hits the fan so I'll probably end up on the offensive rather than taking the easy way out. At least for a while. This might be fun after all.

[HairyHeretic]

If people have to take the law and justice into their own hands then so be it. If the human race (not bloody likely) survives into the next few generations, those who are used to the haves and have-nots dichotomy and want to keep on being haves and separating themselves from the have-nots while they take advantage of them, then those haves need to be eradicated like the cancerous parasites they are. Not that the have-nots are much better, but still, if there is any hope of redemption for the species and the cosmos aren't just going to stamp us out and be done with it, we need to focus on equality and get rid of the idea that some are better than others. And the worst offenders are the wealthy elite. They need to go; and considering how much suffering they've perpetrated on others, how slowly and painfully is up to the person who ends up killing them.

That worked out so well after they got rid of the Czar, didn't it?

Violence is not going to get you utopia.

[Valerian]

Violence will only get you more violence.  And Apple is definitely not the one who needs to take a chill pill.  If you're determined to go down shooting, please make sure you at least do it AFTER your predicted chaos happens and not before.  Otherwise you'll just be proving that you and your "gun fanatic" friend are part of the problem, not any kind of solution.

[Moondazed]

This might be fun after all.

Because what really matters is whether or not you're having fun  ::)  Let me guess... you enjoy first person shooters with lots of gore... :P

[Apple of Eris]

Apple, take a chill pill, please.

I think I'll voice my opinion on your opinion and others I view as disgusting when and how I please, so long as the moderators deem it doesn't violate the site rules TYVM.

When law and order collapses (not if, WHEN)

I'm sure you have a source for this wonderful flash of precognition?

...those who are used to the haves and have-nots dichotomy and want to keep on being haves and separating themselves from the have-nots while they take advantage of them, then those haves need to be eradicated like the cancerous parasites they are.

Yes, we should certainly eradicate anyone who has doen well for themselves. Lets kill Warren Buffet, he made a fortune investing. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs too, theymade TONS of cash with an idea and some business savvy. Etc... etc..

But wait! Why should we stop there? Lets kill all CEOs! Oh! And all upper level management. No, wait, better kill ALL managers just to be sure! And lets not forget people that own their own businesses because you know, they HAVE something. Oh and how about people with a college education? Lets kill them! Heck, anyone who went to school at all! And people with glasses, you only need glasses if you're going to read and if you read you MUST be educated!

Then, when we run out of bullets we'll just order some more from... oh... shit.

If only the government would take away your guns so -I- don't need to be afraid of the lunatics running loose that want to shower us all in a hail of steel jacketed death. I knew I should have become a prosecutor.

[Kazae]

In case of Apocalypse, the people who know what they are doing will establish little enclaves of sanity apart from the Idiocracy that will thereafter ensue, codifying them with terms that are completely opaque to the average consumer of typical broadcast TV and indecipherable to those who loathe literacy and those who 'talk like fags who have their shit all retarded'. 

Such will be lovingly referred to as Non-utopias, because they will in fact be everywhere.

I don't want the world to end, but I'd frankly see more opportunity than loss.