The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

[Sabby]

No.

Morrowind let you scroll spells.

Oblivion let you hotkey them.

Skyrim is either a) letting you equip a spell slot to a hand and then scrolling/hotkeying to fill that hand with the desire spell, or b) treating individual spells like weapons and having you apply them one by one as the need arises.

Option b) is stupid.

[Hemingway]

Uh. It may be the Jameson getting to my head, but I see no real distinction between those two. I don't quite get your description of option a. I think you're making it too complicated.

Judging by the screenshots, and for the "hand" system to make sense at all, you'll equip a spell as though it were a weapon, requiring a free hand to cast. Which, in my opinion, would be amazing.

[Jude]

The difference comes in a few key areas:

1)  You can't use both of your hands for weapons/shields and also be prepared to cast.
2)  You can equip two spells at once if you aren't using weapons.

But also note that it's extremely easy to switch between "loadouts" (particular equipment profiles) so that you can swap between what you're holding to change spell and weapon sets on the fly.

They've really streamlined the menu system and made them nice and pretty, especially compared to the crappyness of Oblivion menus.

[Sabby]

>.>

Option A. Equip SPELLS.

Option B. Equip A SPELL.

Simple enough now?

[Hemingway]

I still see absolutely no distinction. Given that you're obviously going to have the option to bind spells and items to hotkeys, whether you equip spells, or one particular spell that you need to switch out to cast something else, is the same thing. Unless you want a system where, every time you want to cast a spell, you have to select it from a list, or I'm missing something really essential in what you're suggesting.

[sleepingferret]

So they're basically turning it back into pick whether your going to cast spells or not.  And stick with your choice.  A good "spell slinger" with two spells at the ready is far more efficient than a person with a weapon and a spell.  And a person with two weapons, unless you have mastered the combat engine, know ever power attack combo, and actually have a character with the stats to back up your skill as a player, it'll be for show and a gimmick only.  Because let's face it, I don't know how many times I've been through some combat encounters that if I didn't have a healing spell ready at all times, I would've been dead.  All the skill at blocking, timing your attacks, etc helps...but let's face it just isn't enough at times.  And you don't always have time or even a path of escape to get to a safe spot to heal up.

And now in Skyrim it'll be "Oh crap I need health now..." um, click hotkey to change weapon/shield/spell to equip your healing spell.  Press casting button, and hope you don't get killed in the meantime.

I've had a few close calls in Oblivion before, but never because had to drop my basic melee defense/offense to change to a spell.  Take the time to cast said spell, sure...but actually take the time to "change equipment" not while someone is trying to kick the living daylights out of me.

[Hemingway]

Potions, my good man. Potions.

I just don't see how you make a system like that work without fucking over anyone who wants to use a two-handed weapon. Taking all two-handed weapons away from people who also want to cast spells, is sort of contrary to the whole spirit of the Elder Scrolls - being able to play however you like, without restrictions.

Also, dual wielding. I do not approve. I mean, I know it looks cool and all, but unless there's some kind of mechanic where you screw it up and slice your own throat or something because you suck and lack the coordination to properly swing two weapons at once, it just isn't plausible. It feels like pandering to the ... well, whatever crowd like that sort of thing, hey?

Unless it starts out very primitive ( either unable to attack with both weapons at once, or only able to make simple swings ) and evolves to something more complex as you improve your skill.

I don't see that happening.

[Jude]

Just because you can only have 2 things equipped at once out of spells, shields, and weapons doesn't necessarily mean that any particular style of play will suffer.  The loadout feature will make it easy to swap between spells still, but with the addition of being able to swap weapons and shields as well.  So if you're a 2-handed fighter, you can still switch from that to healing spells, you'll just have to swap your loadout to do so real quickly.  Or better yet, if you face an opponent you could better take on by using one-handed weapons and a shield, you can use a loadout switch to swap to that.

This could very easily increase the difficulty of the game, but I think the Elder Scrolls desperately needs a real difficult bump.  Oblivion's difficulty was largely manufactured and tedious, not strategic and tactical.

I thought combat was especially crappy in Oblvion.  It felt like everything had way too much HP, magicka costs didn't scale properly for the strength of spells, and enemies basically took cheap tactics to whittle down their massive stockpiles of health.

I'm very excited for dual wielding, I always thought it was a fairly neat style of combat, even if it isn't particularly realistic, but I'm not worried about realism in a game that lets you slow down time by shouting phrases in old dragon speak.

[Hemingway]

I fully agree that it needs more difficulty, and not by increasing the health of and damage done by enemies.

It's just that switching weapons in the middle of combat ... isn't exactly realistic. It's immersion-breaking, if you ask me. I think a system where, say, you could let go of your weapon with one hand, still keeping it in your other hand, but being unable to attack ... that would work, without breaking immersion.

[Jude]

You've always been able to switch weapons in the middle of combat.  In Oblivion you had to do it by opening the menu, but Morrowind had shortcuts using button presses that could cycle through available weapons (Oblivion might've had it too on PC, but I'm a console player so I don't know).

[Hemingway]

I know, but Oblivion let you cast spells while holding weapons, so it wasn't a necessary part of combat. It's not an essential part of the game, I'm just saying ...

[Jude]

You can still cast spells while holding a weapon, just not 2 of them, or one of them and a shield.  If you don't want to swap weapons and just spells, just the same weapon in your right hand in every loadout and in the left hand a different spell, then the game is functionally the same as others except you can't use a shield while casting.

Personally I think this is a good balance thing; it's overpowered to have a character that can use a sword, a shield, and cast at the same time.  On the other hand, it sounds very cool that I may soon be able to cast 2 spells at once, without worrying about switching between various sets (which was always hard for me as a console player).

[Hemingway]

I agree that the system is good, and sounds like it'd allow for a lot more creativity than just being able to cast spells all the time. However, I would prefer a system that allowed me to fluently lower my weapon and cast a spell, without having to go through my inventory ( or hotkeys ). Just for the sake of immersion and all that.

[Wolfy]

Gentlemen...

An Elder Scrolls MMO.

Discuss. *throws swords into topic and runs away*

[Jude]

I totally agree with you there, but at the same time I'm reserving judgment somewhat because TESV looks so different from the previous entries.  I think we're both trying to view the mechanics we're hearing of through the lens of the old games.

An example of how different it is?  When you open the leveling screen, instead of looking at a crappy menu, you tilt your head to the sky and the constellations themselves display the information.  It's pretty incredible, this is sounding like much more of a leap between Morrowind and Oblivion forward (which is good because Oblivion was meh compared to Morrowind I'd argue).

[Hemingway]

If you stare long enough at the starlit sky, you're supposed to be able to peer into Oblivion, the stars being holes through which light shines, or some such.

I got such a scare one time, peering up at the sky, when some NPC approached me all quiet-like and started conversation. Imagine how I jumped when my view suddenly started tilting!

And I think people exaggerate how bad Oblivion was. I'll agree that Morrowind was a heck of a lot more creative, just based on the environments and the story, but ... I honestly think people are a little too cynical when talking about it. Ahh, but that's neither here nor there.

I think I'm ready to let the spell system discussion rest for a while. I don't even play spellcasters, dammit! I'm a warrior! I mean, it's obvious even now I'll end up playing a Nord warrior. Or, well, not a warrior, strictly speaking - they always get redundant skills! Both Blade and Blunt? What's the use?

[sleepingferret]

Blunt weapons are technically better for bashing skeletons and other such things.  But for people like me who play around with the game to see what's all around, and have high level characters and high (or even maxed out guild affiliations of our choosing) by the time we decide to do the "main" quest of the game, weapon type doesn't seem to matter much.  Slashing at things with a mastered blade skill works just as well.

But anyways, as for challenges I'm all for it.  In fact I spend the majority of my time with Oblivion messing with various mods since the game's supposed "leveled" monster system is just plain silly.  It just gives them more HP and makes them hit harder.  But if you know what you're doing, it just becomes an annoyance because battles take longer.  Though in truth the only real challenge is fighting multiple opponents at once for me at least anyways.

I'm hoping Skyrim's changes brings about some new challenges without making the game completely annoying to play.  And as for console users trying to play games like Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim...it's just silly.  Way too much button mashing, and for what?  You don't even have enough buttons on the controller to make it relatively easy for you.  That and being able to mess around and customize the game with mods, the Construction Set; had been some of the most fun I've had in years.

[Jude]

I have no doubt that Bethesda games are better on the PC, but I can't afford a PC that can play them.  So I like my console versions. :d

EDIT:  To Hemmingway, that's an awesome story.  I think I'm gonna boot up Oblivion and stare at the sky now.

[Hemingway]

Oh, I forgot to mention - the NPC that approached me was in no way related to me staring at the starlit sky. It was Argonian who approaches you the first time you enter Chorrol, I think. Or the paranoid elf in Skingrad. I forget which. But I didn't see that right away, so it startled me! xD

As for leveled monsters, I sort of like that. I mean, in Morrowind, my character was so insanely powerful, nothing could stop him. That's no fun, either. Fallout 3's system was certainly better than Oblivion, anyway, even if it became really hard at higher levels, on high difficulty settings.

[Inkidu]

This is from the article. Instead of eight hotkeys (this is for console) now they have some kind of favorites menu that you can brig up and easily change your loadout. It pauses the game but it's so fast it's fluent.

Honestly, I never liked the sword, shield, and spell. Kind of wonky. I always used a blade to block if I used spells. Looks cooler.
Though a claymore might be a problem. Or you could just swap it for two handed spell combining fury!

[Sabby]

I don't see a problem with claymores either :/ You swing it in two hands, hold it in your right when casting a spell.

[Inkidu]

I don't see a problem with claymores either :/ You swing it in two hands, hold it in your right when casting a spell.

You're probably right. Still I think the ability to cast two of the over eight-five stock spells at the same time is going to rock for mages. Instead of one big spell that naturally has a higher mana cost you might get away with to medium spells that add up to the same or less.

Oh and now they have trap spells. Put a fire symbol on the ground pull your bow out fire your shot. The enraged beastie comes charging and hits your fire spell right when you loose your next arrow.
That's how the witch hunter class should work. :)

Though you don't have classes anymore. It's the spirit of the thing.

[Wolfy]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.257586-Elder-Scrolls-V-Similar-to-Mega-Man-With-Dragons

That's right......Elder Scrolls V is really Megaman. He's back, baby! :D

...Buuuut seriously...sounds awesome. ^-^

[Sabby]

I like the idea of being heavily armoured with a tall shield... and Touch Spells! =D You hit me. Clunk. No damage. I gingerly caress you. BOOM! U dead.

[Wolfy]

I like the idea of being heavily armoured with a tall shield... and Touch Spells! =D You hit me. Clunk. No damage. I gingerly caress you. BOOM! U dead.

:/ Yeah..but that would ruin O-eh Your love life, wouldn't it?