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Author Topic: The new Star Wars  (Read 16796 times)

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Online BeorningTopic starter

The new Star Wars
« on: October 24, 2015, 03:10:14 PM »
You know, I kind of have mixed feelings regarding the movie that's coming in December...

I mean, it might be cool to see some new SW movies, but... what if the situation with the prequels repeats itself? The prequels were quite bad - I actually watched Episode 3 today (one Polish station is rerunning all SW movies these weeks, no doubt in preparation for December) and it was trash. Way too much of obvious CGI, atrocious writing... I really am angry at Lucas that he spoiled the canon with such poor stories.

So... what if the new movies turn out to be bad? We know that Episode 7 is going to look way better than the prequels, closer to the feel of the original movies, but there's still the question of the story. Who knows what the folks at Disney cooked up. What if the canon gets spoiled even further..?

BTW. Speaking of the movies' feel: when you're imagining the SW universe, what do you see it like? A bit gritty, like the original movies, or high-space-fantasy-like, all-shiny and high-tech, like the prequels?

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 04:22:25 PM »
I think SW universe we will be seeing in this next movie is the galaxy scarred by Empire and is trying to heal. You summed up the setting pretty well actually. During the prequels it was all shiny and high tech because it was a democracy (A corrupt one) but a democracy none the less. When the empire moved in they oppressed everyone and brought the galaxy into a dark age.

I'm somewhat worried if they plan to kill Han off. Back during the Return of the Jedi to my understanding, Harrison Ford wanted Han to be killed off. I'm seriously betting either Han or Chewie is going die in this movie.

That all aside here is a fun fact for everyone concerning Han Solo. Harrison Ford was originally hired to read lines for actors auditioning for the role of Han. Lucas was so won over with his performance he hired him instead.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 04:39:02 PM »
If Han gets stuck with being the Obi-Wan - the wise old mentor who tells the new cast all about the previous age and its wonders (which his line in the trailer implies), then he's dead meat walking.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 09:13:15 PM »
I already see a lot more emotional buy-in within the three trailers than all three prequels combined.  You know what I mean--as fiction writers here at E, our RPs don't do well unless we can root for the characters--get a connection to them.  The prequels were emotionally cold in all but a few spots.  Actually, one of my top ten most favorite scenes in all of the Star Wars films was in Episode 3, where Padme and Anakin are in their separate buildings on Coruscant, and no words are spoken.  No crappy dialogue to ruin the moment, and it is all facial expressions and body language, as we see the agony in both characters.  Hayden and Natalie did their best acting in that scene, and nary a word was breathed.  That scene probably provided 95% of the emotional weight of their relationship, which is really a sad thing considering there were three movies to create their relationship in.

No, I think JJ and Disney knew they had to nail this movie, or the price of buying the franchise wasn't going to be worth it.  I'm sure they did their homework.  From the look and feel of the trailers, I think they got it right.  Just how good it will be is up in the air, though.

And I like the planetside scenes gritty, but the space scenes shiny.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2015, 09:17:19 PM »
Well first they better not screw this trilogy up.

Okay my interest is that planet or moon with the big lens in the poster seems they made a budget Death Star using a planet as the base for it maybe some kind of planet surface killing weapon the trailer hinted they have some kind of terror weapon.

And where is Jar Jar Binks, we need him. j/k

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2015, 09:30:50 PM »
You know, at this point I have no sympathy for Star Wars fans (of which I am one). Episode 1 sucked, but everyone still lined up around the corner to see Episode 2, and it sucked, but behold and lo, they lined up around the corner for the third movie. Okay, so maybe Lucas dropped the ball a lot, but you still gave Skywalker ranch a gold plated super hot tub.

I think most of it happens to be place and time, lightning in a bottle, fans disappointed when it couldn't re-spark some embellished by nostalgia (as all things are in memory, that's why I refuse to go back and watch the Dark Crystal. It might hold up, but I don't want it not to...), and at the crux probably being about ten when you watch the first one. I saw Episode 1 when I was ten and have nothing but fond memories of it, but yeah, I've seen them all and each have their high points and low points. I mean there are portions of Return of the Jedi that are just painful to sit through, and there are awkward bits in Empire and New Hope. It's all kind of moot though because Lucas got to laugh all the way to the bank on the wallets of people who hate him.

That's pretty freaking brilliant now that I put it into words.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2015, 09:42:48 PM »
You know...I don't mind the lightsaber claymore. (That's right come at me haters I dare you!) really I think if you were trained properly that weapon could provide you some extra defense and assault.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2015, 09:48:19 PM »
You know...I don't mind the lightsaber claymore. (That's right come at me haters I dare you!) really I think if you were trained properly that weapon could provide you some extra defense and assault.
Claymore hating is just grasping at straws as far as I'm concerned.

That's not the weirdest thing to come out of Star Wars lightsabers.

They had light chucks at one point. You know why Michelangelo is the most awesome ninja turtle? Because chucks take the most skill to use. Those thing are mini-flails.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2015, 10:14:23 PM »
The light claymore bothers me only because it's so close to being awesome - but the gap between the crossguards and the blade is too big to actually provide any protection against locked blades, which is the whole point of a crossguard. Another inch or two of laser inward and it'd be perfect, but as-is that tiny bit bugs me.

Offline Stella

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2015, 10:21:53 PM »
This is how I feel about SW:

Basically it's like Star Wars is my ex and we had a bad break-up, and now we're sort of seeing one another as friends again and it's hard for me to get too involved because I'm afraid I'll only get hurt.

So seeing the new trailer is kind of like seeing your ex with a new haircut at a party and going, "well, shit, you look really good."

It was a good trailer and the X-Wings look fantastic but I'm suffering too many old feels to go ballistic.

Offline Mathim

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2015, 10:30:12 PM »
Has anyone ever concocted a Sai model lightsaber? I have an idea for how it could work without just having the two extra blades be cut off on contact but I'm wondering if someone else thought of something like that first.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2015, 10:34:32 PM »
They created tonfa lightsabers. Kyp Durron in the Jedi Academy trilogy created a lightsaber with multiple crystals which allowed him to create an extended blade length.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2015, 10:39:42 PM »
Yes there's a sai lightsaber. It looks silly, but still kind of cool. It ignites and these robo-bits filp around to provide the left and right prongs.

Also on the claymore. It's not to provide protection. It's vents for the plasma discharge from the crystal I'm sure. Look at the instability of that blade, Lord of the Sith their is overclocking his saber you.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2015, 05:09:32 AM »
Yeah.  Kylo Ren--or whoever made the 'saber' was working from incomplete instructions, because that isn't the smooth blade like Darth Vader had...or even a typical Sith from the Old Republic.

Is there going to be a resurgence of the Sith and Jedi.  Some people say Luke is going to turn evil...then who is left to pass on the Jedi training to Finn and Rey and Poe?  Doesn't look like Leia became a force user.  And if Luke teaches the new heroes...who ressurects the Sith?  Maybe no one does, and some new form of dark force users arise.  Maybe the Knights of Ren are it.  Regardless, people who are force-sensitive would still be born in the galaxy, and even if they have to figure it out on their own, they aren't going away.

By the way, exactly how many troops do you need to garrison worlds and man the Imperial Fleet?  I heard somewhere the Imperial army and navy had something like a trillion troopers.  When you consider just how many inhabited worlds there are in the Star Wars galaxy, you wonder just how many Jedi were being turned out by the old temple or academy back in the day...and unless they were in the millions, well...  I can't see some thousands making any kind of difference in a political entity the size of a galaxy

Or maybe I'm just not suspending my disbelief enough.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2015, 06:34:18 AM »
The Sith are not a people to be expunged (well, not anymore if the expanded universe is to be believed).

The Sith are an idea, a philosophy, and you can't destroy an idea.

Offline Aiden

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 09:57:48 AM »
@Hannibal- I think that was supposed to be the point of Jedi. They are literally some small little religion within a massive universe that has way more influence then it really should.

I think the universe is set up a lot of force sensitives, but without training (Jedi or Sith getting their hooks into them), doesn't it just mean they are slightly better in some fields. Better at flying, better at shooting, able to sense things, etc etc.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 11:29:29 AM »
Maybe Darth Krayt like in the comic books. He had been a Jedi, wore the Tusken Raider attire but was captured by the Vong. There is also the Lost Tribe of the Sith. Lots of Holocrons were left scattered about. Exar Kun's ghost haunted a temple on Yavin 4 where he corrupted Kyp Durron into using the World Crusher.

According to several sites, Andy Serkiss is playing Supreme Leader Snoke who is Kylo Ren's master and a powerful figure of the dark side. Another article cited that Mark Hamill apparently petioned to have Luke Skywalker be evil. Think it was mentioned Luke is in self-imposed exile on Dagobah?

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 12:40:17 PM »
I thought that they said that they would be abandoning all the canon post-Return of the Jedi. No Vong (BLASPHEMY!), no Kun's haunting, and no Boba-Fett as Mandalore.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2015, 12:46:04 PM »
I've read conflicting reports. Some say they still plan to use elements of the expanded universe, others saying no. While stuff from the Star Wars Rebels will be incorporated.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2015, 12:51:14 PM »
That was the whole point of the Legends branding - the entire post-RotJ universe is now officially non-Canon, giving them total freedom instead of being slaved to a timeline that is detailed out to hundreds of years post-movies. They can 'salvage' bits of the old EU and make them canon again if they want, while doing so selectively. Whether they will or not is unknown, but it's an option if they decide to do it.

Offline Mathim

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2015, 01:06:03 PM »
Yes there's a sai lightsaber. It looks silly, but still kind of cool. It ignites and these robo-bits filp around to provide the left and right prongs.

Also on the claymore. It's not to provide protection. It's vents for the plasma discharge from the crystal I'm sure. Look at the instability of that blade, Lord of the Sith their is overclocking his saber you.

Is there a picture link or should I just google it?

Offline Oniya

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2015, 01:10:55 PM »
I thought that they said that they would be abandoning all the canon post-Return of the Jedi. No Vong (BLASPHEMY!), no Kun's haunting, and no Boba-Fett as Mandalore.

There is some evidence that Disney is keeping Boba-Fett.

http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2015/04/disney-makes-it-official-that-boba-fett-survived-the-sarlacc-in-return-of-the-jedi.html

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2015, 01:20:26 PM »
Maybe the Sith behind the scenes is a Force Specter there is a precedent see Empire trikes Back and Return of the Jedi when Ob-wan came back as a ghost. So the Emperor could be around or something promoting its foul mission or trying to return.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2015, 05:05:03 PM »
According to several sites, Andy Serkiss is playing Supreme Leader Snoke who is Kylo Ren's master and a powerful figure of the dark side. Another article cited that Mark Hamill apparently petioned to have Luke Skywalker be evil. Think it was mentioned Luke is in self-imposed exile on Dagobah?

You know I think Mark Hamill just prefers playing bad guys now. He really didn't find that much work outside Star Wars other than Voice Acting and became known as the iconic Joker voice. He's gone on to play more evil bad guy voice roles too since then.

Guess Luke really did go to the Dark Side at heart  :'(

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2015, 01:22:11 AM »
Took me forever to find this after the talk concerning lightsabers.




and here is something epic
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 01:26:17 AM by CaptainNexus616 »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2015, 08:01:22 AM »


Honestly, the lightsaber is just too easily adapted into any weapon to say it's not possible, practicality is another issue all together.

Offline Oniya

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2015, 11:08:47 AM »
I'm going to just make everyone's head explode.

This crossed my Facebook page earlier.

Mr. Oniya is still gobsmacked.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2015, 11:24:36 AM »
I saw that earlier... I'm still pondering and wondering. It's... annoyingly plausible.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2015, 11:45:53 AM »
Terrifyingly so. Almost certainly nonsense, but it's so well-connected and supported that it hangs together far better than most conspiracies; and the damning weakness in the typical conspiracy theory, the need to keep a large group of people silenced, is countered by the point that Lucas has done something very similar and previously used subterfuge to hide plot twists.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2015, 02:39:40 PM »
Ok folks you are going to love this.




Online BeorningTopic starter

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2015, 05:16:35 PM »
I'm going to just make everyone's head explode.

This crossed my Facebook page earlier.

Mr. Oniya is still gobsmacked.

My God... *brainsplodes*

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2015, 07:47:11 PM »
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-star-wars-broke-hollywood-forever_p2/?wa_user1=2&wa_user2=Movies+%26+TV&wa_user3=blog&wa_user4=feature_module

Cracked ran the above article, and I like this bit the best:

Quote from: David Wong
The happiness Star Wars brought me as a kid was real. It wasn't a trick. It was the product of a fictional universe in which everywhere I looked, I saw or heard something that stuck in my mind for the rest of my life. I'm talking about the little things you don't even appreciate at the time, like Ben Burtt's sound design -- he's the one who came up with Darth Vader's labored, mechanical breathing (it's so weirdly ominous it gave me nightmares). He gave the lightsaber that deep electric hum, subconsciously letting you know just how much juice was pumping through that blade. The stormtrooper's gleaming white armor, the menacing, angular Star Destroyers the size of a city ... all these striking design choices, all the little touches. The tens of thousands of tiny details on the ship models, crafted by hand.

And all that overpriced plastic crap my parents worked overtime for every Christmas? Those toys helped me act out thousands of my own stories. George Lucas created a universe I wanted to live in, and gave me a way to live in it. Some of us have spent our entire adult lives trying to be that happy again. You'll see them in line on opening day, many of them with their own kids. Kids who probably only saw the original films because Dad made them watch the DVDs.

That is, unless they fell in love with the prequels, as millions of kids did. Does that bother you, if you're around my age? To think that those kids feel the exact same joy watching Jar Jar flop around on screen as you felt the first time you saw Yoda? Do you see them enjoying Transformers or Shrek and find it hard to admit to yourself that their love of that cynical trash is also genuine?

Because it is.

Take that, cynical old fans. :P

Offline mia h

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2015, 02:44:47 PM »
All I'm gonna say about the film is  : "Did not see that comin!?!?"

Offline LostInTheMist

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2015, 02:55:59 AM »
Loved it! Loved it! Loved it!

After more than thirty years, we finally have a film WORTHY of the title "Star Wars".

Offline mia h

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2015, 07:00:34 AM »
And after seeing it on the big screen I think that certain actors were cast for more than there acting abilities...

It's hidden in a spoiler for a reason



Spot the family resemblance.  ;D

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2015, 08:46:40 AM »
Fr those of you who might be interested...

Saberforge

You can design and have your own lightsaber made.  The blades are polycarbonate and are sturdy enough for duels, while you can get a 'plug' to seal it off, for the LEDs to light up (if you add the LEDs). 

The hard part is that they're expensive.  But having the opportunity to own what is basically a working duel-worthy lightsaber?  That's priceless.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2015, 02:01:36 PM »
Obama at the end of his end-of-year press conference: "Okay everybody, I gotta get to Star Wars!"  :D (line delivered with typical offhand cool)

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2015, 02:29:06 PM »
Might we see a Star Wars group game on E? I don't think I've ever seen one, but I have played the tabletop games, West End, d20, and Saga alike, on the convincing of a friend who is a much bigger fan.

Offline Aiden

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2015, 02:48:27 PM »
They always pop up, never really get rolling. Everyone want to be Jedi Masters and Darths

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2015, 02:51:08 PM »
Dibs on Darth Twi'lek Stripper.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2015, 04:01:39 PM »
What I didn't see coming, still has me shocked.

Offline Phaia

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2015, 04:37:24 PM »
yes yes shocked with tears in my eyes :'( :'( ...but but...there was tie fighters and x wings ;D...and light sabers... and the falcon doing spiffy flying things ;D....and Hans and Chewy ;D ;D and a new girl with a long stick that beats people with it...and a new guy named Fin...and did I mention light sabers
 :P :P ;D ;D

*waves hands falling around*

'The force is strong in this one'

'May the force be with us!'

Phaia

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2015, 07:27:10 PM »
It should have been called Star Wars: the Force Awakens to a New Hope. Seriously it was the exact same movie. Nothing new. I was surrounded by cheering fanboys - and 2 crying ones - and all I took away from the movie was irritation at paying to watch a movie I've seen before. Thankfully I'm not a huge Star Wars fan so the overall disappointment is minimal.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2015, 12:04:35 AM »
Kylo Ren, in my opinion stole the movie.  The emotion, the actual fucking emotion you saw.  You could feel the pain.

Offline Thorne

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2015, 03:39:08 AM »
I enjoyed it. Nods to the original trilogy and all.
Couple of 'twists' I saw coming (I HATE being right!) that I'm not going to clarify. ;p

I have some hunches that I guess I'm just going to have to wait a year to see proven out - or not. Almost looking forward to it. ^^;

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2015, 06:42:11 AM »
I'm... well... I'm not as positive as a lot of other people seem to be about it.

Spoilers Ahoy... and lots of them
Seriously, lots of spoilers about lots of things; read with caution if you haven't seen the film
One last chance to not read
Have you ever watched a tribute band play?

They play the same songs as the original. They play them the say way as the original. They sound pretty similar to the original. They look pretty similar to the original. They move in a similar way to the original. But for all the talent they may possess, for all their ability to be a near perfect replica of the original, they are not the original and it is that lack of originality and lack of soul that means that a tribute band will never be as good as the real thing.

Welcome to Star Wars: The Force Awakens… the most high budget tribute act of all time.

Alternative title; Star Wars: The Star Wars Movie.

There's barely a major plot point developed or major scene presented over the 136 minutes of the Force Awakens that isn't lifted pretty much wholesale from the original trilogy. To begin with one could argue it's fan service. As it goes on you could claim it's an ironic wink to those who grew up with the original trilogy and want to relive that experience. But in the end it just becomes banal, predictable and seemingly a sign of little courage or imagination on the part of the writers and director.

Small droid that's sort of “cute” escapes with secret documents when its owner is captured? Check.
Promising Jedi fallen to the Dark Side who wears black, has a mask, speaks with a distorted voice and is a close relation to one of the major characters? Check
Giant starbase that can blow up planets? Check
Said giant starbase being taken out by a combination of star fighter attack and an infiltration? Check
Said starfighter attack involves flying down “trenches” lined with turrets while being pursued by enemy fighters? Check
A quest by a young force user to discover a famous Jedi master who has gone missing and can seemingly help them develop their understanding? Check
Major good guy character facing off with a bad guy he has a close history with and eventually sacrificing himself without much of a fight? Check
The bad guys basically being the Empire (including a mysterious master-type character) and the good guys basically being the Rebels? Check
Han Solo as a smuggler who owes dangerous people money? [Check

Some of this is deliberately played up and noted upon within the film itself; Kylo Ren is presented as being obsessed with Darth Vader which makes his obvious similarities to him somewhat understandable. Likewise there is something to be said for watching how the young characters from the original trilogy have basically become the older characters from the original trilogy with Han Solo playing a (slightly more grumpy) Obi Wan Kenobi and Luke taking on the role of Yoda. But the fact there are so many, that they are so similar and that they are so frequent meant that I struggled to meet each one with anything more than a groan. It was a very high budget tribute act… different people playing the same songs in slightly different ways while wearing similar clothes… but for me it lacked soul. It was that tribute band playing the greatest hits because they knew they'd get an "Oohh" and an "Aahh" because they were so good years ago.

Even if one gets beyond the wholescale lifting from previous movies there were things that didn't really work for me either. Despite the long running time the film covers so much ground (both literally and metaphorically) that things frequently lose their punch. The revelation that Kylo Ren was Han Solo's son came and went without much impact because there'd been little build up to it. Han and Leia having broken up? Pretty much the same. The Starkiller base destroying multiple planets (including the current seat of Senate and thus the leaders of the Republic)? It just sort of happened. Poe being alive? Barely raised an eyebrow. Part of that's the pacing; the first half (or more) of the film is relatively sedate which means there's a lot to fit in to the final third; it doesn't so much build to a crescendo as just throw the drum kit off a cliff. But even with the slower pacing some things just never seemed to develop for me. I like the idea that Finn and Rey seemingly are going for a friendship/brother and sister type relationship rather than a romantic one but their sudden closeness was a bit jarring; Finn has the one brief monologue about how Rey was the only person who looked at him a certain way and you can extrapolate how Rey, scarred by abandonment, would feel so deeply about someone coming back for her but the entire thing felt like a somewhat forced bromance. Likewise with Poe and Finn. Hell, throw in Solo and Rey as well; they seemed to have spent about five minutes together, exchanged a few lines and had a few moments where they both understood starships before she's thinking that he's the father she always wanted.

The setting itself threw up some issues that I never quite got over as I watched. The film is set 30 years after the Rebel Alliance won and overthrew the Empire. Yet the way the film goes it could just have easily been set during the height of Imperial Power. The New Order have vastly more men, ships and technology; the first half of the film features the protagonists being on the run and the second half pitches the overmatched rebels against seemingly overwhelming forces; the Resistance (and I'll mention them more later) have the same (or arguably a worse) feel as the rag tag alliance early in the original trilogy. The Republic itself is barely mentioned and the only talk of their direct military forces are a few references to the Republic fleet not being there. Exactly what the Republic Fleet found more important than a considerable military force with dark side users and a super weapon that just destroyed a whole bunch of planets in one go (including the current Senate) is never said. It's that lack of saying that got to me; we know basically nothing more about how the galaxy works 30 years after the Empire fell than we did at the Ewok party. Why has the Republic let the New Order grow as powerful as they have? What is their fleet doing? Why were the Resistance and Leia (surely an important figure) left to take them on at least one star destroyer, countless tie-fighters, a fallen Jedi (who was Luke's apprentice) and a planet sized superweapon with little more than some X-Wings? All it would have taken is a line of dialogue here or there to give at least some explanation. Maybe it's explained in the supporting media that are out there… but one shouldn't have to follow all that media to get some pretty basic questions answered.

(As for the "Resistance"... why are the soldiers from the victorious side called that? The Resistance represent the Republic, the dominant force in the galaxy… if anything shouldn't they be called the New Order and the New Order the Resistance? What exactly is it they're resisting? Why don't they have more support? Why does everything about them seem pretty run down? Why don't they have some capital ship support?)

I imagine other things like Rey suddenly becoming an expert in how to use the Force will be explained in the coming films but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be whitewashed away for now. Luke Skywalker, the Chosen One, required extensive training from both Obi Wan and Yoda to start using the Force effectively. Rey has Kylo Ren delve into her mind for a few moments and suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and outpowering Ren in a Force telekenesis contest. Likewise Maz having Luke's lightsabre… why did he give it up, where did she get it and how come no-one else came chasing after it, instead leaving it in the back room of some backwater bar? Or the fall of Kylo Ren; we're given little clue as to why he turned to the dark side and the best we can put together is that he wants to be like Vader… hardly a convincing reason. The strongest stories involving someone falling to the Dark Side are them going too far in pursuit of a generally positive aim; it may not have been well executed in the prequels but Anakin falling because he wanted to save the one he loved is the classic while the Expanded Universe-based fan theory that Palpatine fell because he realised the Republic as it was wasn't strong enough to resist the Yuuzhan Vong (which would also explain the Empire's penchant for super weapons) is a good one. Ren? Right now it appears to be that he fell “just because”. With Luke getting more (well, any…) screen time in the next film we should get more (and I think it could be a powerful story and good example of how obsession, even for good reasons, goes to the Dark Side if Luke was so worried about Ben Solo becoming a new Vader that he ended up turning him into him) but again, that doesn't mean this film should get a free pass for leaving a major element largely untouched.

Other things are personal. Kylo Ren was pretty damn effective while masked and his occasional displays of petulance struck me of being a good example of how the dark side amplifies rage. But once the mask came off I found it hard to care about him; I know for story reasons he can't be too old but he just didn't seem threatening at all. When the good guys return to their base at the end why is Leia's first reaction to hug Rey in the wake of Han's seeming death; she barely knew Rey, Rey barely knew Solo and Chewbacca… Han's best friend, the one seemingly in most need of comfort and someone Leia actually has a long relationship with… is left to stand alone. What happened to the Star Destroyer during the attack on Starkiller Base?

Here's where the courage point I mentioned earlier comes in…

Right now Disney buying Star Wars looks like a licence to print money but let's be clear… it was a risk. The Star Wars liscence will always be profitable just because they can sell so much but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars so they could sell some game licences, do a couple of cartoons and include Star Wars characters in their lineup of plushie toys. This was what they did it for… a big movie which in turn drives all the other merchandising opportunities forward. But the prequels lost a lot of good will which the community had (and even if you liked them popular memory has turned to the point where they are seen as being dreadful) and people were less likely to be forgiving. If this movie did badly (both critically and commercially) it could have been really, really bad for Disney.

If you asked the typical fan what they wanted from this new trilogy they'd have probably said for it to be less like the prequels and more like the original trilogy. So that's what we got. The Republic as a dominant military force rather than a group of rebels? That's too much like the prequels and not enough like the original trilogy. Political scenes setting out how the Republic works? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy. Watching the fall of a Jedi rather than have it having already happened and an established master/apprentice Sith relationship? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy.

That point also applied to the director as well. J. J. Abrams' re-imagining of Star Trek was a commercial success and, as a non-Trekie, I quite liked them as somewhat generic sci-fi action movies. But from what I understand a lot of Star Trek fans largely disliked them because to them they didn't feel like Star Trek movies. And I imagine that hurt J. J. Abrams. So what he did here was make the most Star Wars type movie he could by simply reusing every element of the original trilogy he could get his hands on. For me that shows a lack of courage. He didn't have the bravery to attempt to make something with the same soul as the original trilogy, he took the trappings that surrounded it.

It's appropriate in some ways; the term “Disneyfication” is a criticism generally used when something is stripped of its original character and instead given little more than the outer veneer of what it once was. And that's exactly what happened to this, the first Disney Star Wars movie.

What we got here could in many ways be argued as a re-imagining, much as the first new Star Trek film was, down to characters and actors from the original having plot important cameo roles. But what I wanted wasn't a re-imagining, I wanted a continuation.

That's not to say it's an awful film. It's generally well acted and well directed, the special effects are brilliant and it goes along well. If all you want is to be reminded of Star Wars or a generic sci-fi action film then you'll be well catered for. But I wanted something different from that.

I wanted Fugazi following on from Minor Threat. Instead I got a Minor Threat cover band.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2015, 07:55:01 AM »
Honestly, I'm not all that concerned about it.  It's going to be space fantasy for kids, with some magic, interesting fights, and some old friends, and new faces to learn about. 

And that's okay. 

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2015, 08:51:18 AM »
I'm... well... I'm not as positive as a lot of other people seem to be about it.

Spoilers Ahoy... and lots of them
Seriously, lots of spoilers about lots of things; read with caution if you haven't seen the film
One last chance to not read
Have you ever watched a tribute band play?

They play the same songs as the original. They play them the say way as the original. They sound pretty similar to the original. They look pretty similar to the original. They move in a similar way to the original. But for all the talent they may possess, for all their ability to be a near perfect replica of the original, they are not the original and it is that lack of originality and lack of soul that means that a tribute band will never be as good as the real thing.

Welcome to Star Wars: The Force Awakens… the most high budget tribute act of all time.

Alternative title; Star Wars: The Star Wars Movie.

There's barely a major plot point developed or major scene presented over the 136 minutes of the Force Awakens that isn't lifted pretty much wholesale from the original trilogy. To begin with one could argue it's fan service. As it goes on you could claim it's an ironic wink to those who grew up with the original trilogy and want to relive that experience. But in the end it just becomes banal, predictable and seemingly a sign of little courage or imagination on the part of the writers and director.

Small droid that's sort of “cute” escapes with secret documents when its owner is captured? Check.
Promising Jedi fallen to the Dark Side who wears black, has a mask, speaks with a distorted voice and is a close relation to one of the major characters? Check
Giant starbase that can blow up planets? Check
Said giant starbase being taken out by a combination of star fighter attack and an infiltration? Check
Said starfighter attack involves flying down “trenches” lined with turrets while being pursued by enemy fighters? Check
A quest by a young force user to discover a famous Jedi master who has gone missing and can seemingly help them develop their understanding? Check
Major good guy character facing off with a bad guy he has a close history with and eventually sacrificing himself without much of a fight? Check
The bad guys basically being the Empire (including a mysterious master-type character) and the good guys basically being the Rebels? Check
Han Solo as a smuggler who owes dangerous people money? [Check

Some of this is deliberately played up and noted upon within the film itself; Kylo Ren is presented as being obsessed with Darth Vader which makes his obvious similarities to him somewhat understandable. Likewise there is something to be said for watching how the young characters from the original trilogy have basically become the older characters from the original trilogy with Han Solo playing a (slightly more grumpy) Obi Wan Kenobi and Luke taking on the role of Yoda. But the fact there are so many, that they are so similar and that they are so frequent meant that I struggled to meet each one with anything more than a groan. It was a very high budget tribute act… different people playing the same songs in slightly different ways while wearing similar clothes… but for me it lacked soul. It was that tribute band playing the greatest hits because they knew they'd get an "Oohh" and an "Aahh" because they were so good years ago.

Even if one gets beyond the wholescale lifting from previous movies there were things that didn't really work for me either. Despite the long running time the film covers so much ground (both literally and metaphorically) that things frequently lose their punch. The revelation that Kylo Ren was Han Solo's son came and went without much impact because there'd been little build up to it. Han and Leia having broken up? Pretty much the same. The Starkiller base destroying multiple planets (including the current seat of Senate and thus the leaders of the Republic)? It just sort of happened. Poe being alive? Barely raised an eyebrow. Part of that's the pacing; the first half (or more) of the film is relatively sedate which means there's a lot to fit in to the final third; it doesn't so much build to a crescendo as just throw the drum kit off a cliff. But even with the slower pacing some things just never seemed to develop for me. I like the idea that Finn and Rey seemingly are going for a friendship/brother and sister type relationship rather than a romantic one but their sudden closeness was a bit jarring; Finn has the one brief monologue about how Rey was the only person who looked at him a certain way and you can extrapolate how Rey, scarred by abandonment, would feel so deeply about someone coming back for her but the entire thing felt like a somewhat forced bromance. Likewise with Poe and Finn. Hell, throw in Solo and Rey as well; they seemed to have spent about five minutes together, exchanged a few lines and had a few moments where they both understood starships before she's thinking that he's the father she always wanted.

The setting itself threw up some issues that I never quite got over as I watched. The film is set 30 years after the Rebel Alliance won and overthrew the Empire. Yet the way the film goes it could just have easily been set during the height of Imperial Power. The New Order have vastly more men, ships and technology; the first half of the film features the protagonists being on the run and the second half pitches the overmatched rebels against seemingly overwhelming forces; the Resistance (and I'll mention them more later) have the same (or arguably a worse) feel as the rag tag alliance early in the original trilogy. The Republic itself is barely mentioned and the only talk of their direct military forces are a few references to the Republic fleet not being there. Exactly what the Republic Fleet found more important than a considerable military force with dark side users and a super weapon that just destroyed a whole bunch of planets in one go (including the current Senate) is never said. It's that lack of saying that got to me; we know basically nothing more about how the galaxy works 30 years after the Empire fell than we did at the Ewok party. Why has the Republic let the New Order grow as powerful as they have? What is their fleet doing? Why were the Resistance and Leia (surely an important figure) left to take them on at least one star destroyer, countless tie-fighters, a fallen Jedi (who was Luke's apprentice) and a planet sized superweapon with little more than some X-Wings? All it would have taken is a line of dialogue here or there to give at least some explanation. Maybe it's explained in the supporting media that are out there… but one shouldn't have to follow all that media to get some pretty basic questions answered.

(As for the "Resistance"... why are the soldiers from the victorious side called that? The Resistance represent the Republic, the dominant force in the galaxy… if anything shouldn't they be called the New Order and the New Order the Resistance? What exactly is it they're resisting? Why don't they have more support? Why does everything about them seem pretty run down? Why don't they have some capital ship support?)

I imagine other things like Rey suddenly becoming an expert in how to use the Force will be explained in the coming films but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be whitewashed away for now. Luke Skywalker, the Chosen One, required extensive training from both Obi Wan and Yoda to start using the Force effectively. Rey has Kylo Ren delve into her mind for a few moments and suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and outpowering Ren in a Force telekenesis contest. Likewise Maz having Luke's lightsabre… why did he give it up, where did she get it and how come no-one else came chasing after it, instead leaving it in the back room of some backwater bar? Or the fall of Kylo Ren; we're given little clue as to why he turned to the dark side and the best we can put together is that he wants to be like Vader… hardly a convincing reason. The strongest stories involving someone falling to the Dark Side are them going too far in pursuit of a generally positive aim; it may not have been well executed in the prequels but Anakin falling because he wanted to save the one he loved is the classic while the Expanded Universe-based fan theory that Palpatine fell because he realised the Republic as it was wasn't strong enough to resist the Yuuzhan Vong (which would also explain the Empire's penchant for super weapons) is a good one. Ren? Right now it appears to be that he fell “just because”. With Luke getting more (well, any…) screen time in the next film we should get more (and I think it could be a powerful story and good example of how obsession, even for good reasons, goes to the Dark Side if Luke was so worried about Ben Solo becoming a new Vader that he ended up turning him into him) but again, that doesn't mean this film should get a free pass for leaving a major element largely untouched.

Other things are personal. Kylo Ren was pretty damn effective while masked and his occasional displays of petulance struck me of being a good example of how the dark side amplifies rage. But once the mask came off I found it hard to care about him; I know for story reasons he can't be too old but he just didn't seem threatening at all. When the good guys return to their base at the end why is Leia's first reaction to hug Rey in the wake of Han's seeming death; she barely knew Rey, Rey barely knew Solo and Chewbacca… Han's best friend, the one seemingly in most need of comfort and someone Leia actually has a long relationship with… is left to stand alone. What happened to the Star Destroyer during the attack on Starkiller Base?

Here's where the courage point I mentioned earlier comes in…

Right now Disney buying Star Wars looks like a licence to print money but let's be clear… it was a risk. The Star Wars liscence will always be profitable just because they can sell so much but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars so they could sell some game licences, do a couple of cartoons and include Star Wars characters in their lineup of plushie toys. This was what they did it for… a big movie which in turn drives all the other merchandising opportunities forward. But the prequels lost a lot of good will which the community had (and even if you liked them popular memory has turned to the point where they are seen as being dreadful) and people were less likely to be forgiving. If this movie did badly (both critically and commercially) it could have been really, really bad for Disney.

If you asked the typical fan what they wanted from this new trilogy they'd have probably said for it to be less like the prequels and more like the original trilogy. So that's what we got. The Republic as a dominant military force rather than a group of rebels? That's too much like the prequels and not enough like the original trilogy. Political scenes setting out how the Republic works? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy. Watching the fall of a Jedi rather than have it having already happened and an established master/apprentice Sith relationship? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy.

That point also applied to the director as well. J. J. Abrams' re-imagining of Star Trek was a commercial success and, as a non-Trekie, I quite liked them as somewhat generic sci-fi action movies. But from what I understand a lot of Star Trek fans largely disliked them because to them they didn't feel like Star Trek movies. And I imagine that hurt J. J. Abrams. So what he did here was make the most Star Wars type movie he could by simply reusing every element of the original trilogy he could get his hands on. For me that shows a lack of courage. He didn't have the bravery to attempt to make something with the same soul as the original trilogy, he took the trappings that surrounded it.

It's appropriate in some ways; the term “Disneyfication” is a criticism generally used when something is stripped of its original character and instead given little more than the outer veneer of what it once was. And that's exactly what happened to this, the first Disney Star Wars movie.

What we got here could in many ways be argued as a re-imagining, much as the first new Star Trek film was, down to characters and actors from the original having plot important cameo roles. But what I wanted wasn't a re-imagining, I wanted a continuation.

That's not to say it's an awful film. It's generally well acted and well directed, the special effects are brilliant and it goes along well. If all you want is to be reminded of Star Wars or a generic sci-fi action film then you'll be well catered for. But I wanted something different from that.

I wanted Fugazi following on from Minor Threat. Instead I got a Minor Threat cover band.

My feelings exactly. The movie was just pointless. We have seen it before.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2015, 09:39:05 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

Personally I found it Lisa Frank Unicorn levels of magical.

Offline Aiden

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2015, 09:49:01 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

Personally I found it Lisa Frank Unicorn levels of magical.

+1 looking forward to watching this with my sibling, god daughter and in time my kids.

I loved the Poe and Finn bromance.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2015, 09:51:06 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

That makes no sense. I have to forgive it being bad because other people loved it? Nothing has ever worked like that in the history of the world. Ever. The only culture I can't share if I don't like it is the Star Wars fanboy culture which I was never a part of anyway.

Personally I think the nostalgia will fade and people will remember that JJ Abrams is a hack and this movie will go down as ultimately forgettable.

Offline Aiden

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2015, 09:56:51 AM »
You don't have to do anything, if you don't like it, you don't like it. Star Wars is here to stay, with a movie coming out every year, I am glad to live in this age of cinema. Marvel and Star Wars every year... Give me a new Harry Potter series and I'll just move in to an amc.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2015, 10:09:31 AM »
I understand that. I was specifically replying to someone who implied that I have to if I want to share a culture with people. Which is an idea so strange to me that I had to question it.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2015, 10:17:24 AM »
It was not meant as a personal attack.

What I mean is this. If the newest brain worm pop song comes on and everyone else starts humming, you can point out "this is clearly Pachelbel's Canon in D and the original is better." It would not be inaccurate to say so, but it would be unpopular.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2015, 10:28:25 AM »
I erased the post I had written because I realized that your comment was pushing me towards anger and I don't feel like being angry right now. I just need to remember that I don't participate in discussion threads here for a reason.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2015, 11:05:15 AM »
I have to forgive it being bad because other people loved it? .
No.  You have to forgive it's existence because it's going to exist whether you want it to or not - like sunlight. 

Personally, being a night person, I hate sunlight a lot.  But there's not all that much I can do about it.

Offline deadmanshand

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2015, 11:13:21 AM »
No.  You have to forgive it's existence because it's going to exist whether you want it to or not - like sunlight. 

Personally, being a night person, I hate sunlight a lot.  But there's not all that much I can do about it.

See... this right here is why I really dislike the discussion forums on Elliquiy. One is that you are misconstruing what she and I both said to try and prove me wrong. Two is that after I said that I was getting angry and trying to step away from the conversation you still felt the need to do the first thing. Does that seem particularly civil?

And I absolutely will not be returning to this thread anymore. So please do not bother responding to me.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2015, 11:20:25 AM »
I feel like Mnemaxa understands what I was saying and hasn't misconstrued it. I'm sorry that I made you angry with my post. It was absolutely not my intention.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2015, 11:30:06 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

Personally I found it Lisa Frank Unicorn levels of magical.
I haven't seen it, but I think it's not pop music. It's JJ Abrams being smart enough to know that Star Wars fans don't want anything new, they want that same old jolt of nostalgia that they got watching the original trilogy as a kid.

I got to see all the Star Wars films during my formative years and love them all. I think a lot of the hate is misplaced, overblown, and undeserved. So the average Star Wars fan was basically looking for New Hope 2.0 and they got it. Not so much pop as pandering I imagine.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2015, 11:54:45 AM »
I think you have to forgive the movie for being the same like you have to forgive pop music for being the same if you want to share a culture with people. For the next half a decade, disliking it will be akin to disliking the sunlight.

What I mean is this. If the newest brain worm pop song comes on and everyone else starts humming, you can point out "this is clearly Pachelbel's Canon in D and the original is better." It would not be inaccurate to say so, but it would be unpopular.

I'm not sure that the example works or that the argument is true to begin with.

To go with the pop example, "Call Me Maybe" is one of the most commercially successful songs of all time with something like 15 million+ sold. Yet it was hardly a black mark to say that you didn't like it. James Blunt pretty much became a punchline in that he sold an outrageous number of records but no-one admitted to buying him or liking them.

To deal with the argument as a whole we actually have a perfect counter example from not just the world of film, but from the same series. The prequels were incredibly successful in a commercial sense, with The Phantom Menace in particular breaking all sorts of records. Yet it was hardly unpopular, even shortly after Phantom Menace's release, to say that you disliked it or that you thought it wasn't very good. If we don't want to use the prequels then one could look to the Michael Bay Transformers films; again, they've been incredibly successful commercially but saying you don't like them or that you didn't think they were very good doesn't make one unpopular or even seperate one from the fan-dom as a whole. Hell, quite a lot of people criticize Jackson's Tolkien adaptations and they were both commercially successful and generally pretty well regarded.

To give another direct counter when there was the glut of Western adaptations of Japanese horror films (Ring, Grudge, Dark Water etc) a lot of people pointed out how the originals were better. Likewise I'd argue that saying that Blurred Lines copied from Got to Give It Up and that Got to Give It Up was better would hardly be controversial and in certain circles would probably be the more popular view.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2015, 12:15:50 PM »
Originally I was going to say that for the next five years Star Wars will be bigger than Jesus, but thought better of it. Some things, like sunlight or Jesus, are inescapably ingrained into our culture, like them or not. You can drive yourself crazy hating them, or you can accept that your DRV of vitamin C comes with the caveat of accepting BB8 into your life and home.



I never liked the Beatles but I have learned not to say so.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2015, 12:21:39 PM »
It was FAR BETTER than Episode 1, that's good enough for me.

Offline mia h

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2015, 03:56:40 PM »
It was FAR BETTER than Episode 1, that's good enough for me.
That's hardly a high bar to clear.
I saw a program recently that said the Lucas wrote Star Wars for 12 year olds and it's not his fault grown-ups liked it. The prequels and JJ Wars have the same brief, entertain 12 year olds, as everyone on these boards is over 18 *waves hand* you are not the demographic they are looking for. The only two slight quibbles I have with Force Awakens are firstly if someone knew nothing about Star Wars and hadn't seen any of the previous movies would they understand what was going on? It felt like the first part of trilogy, in that it's not a film in it's own right and can't be watched as stand alone movie. Cut the last 5 minutes of the movie and it would be self-contained.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2015, 04:03:40 PM »
They had me on the scrolling opening, promoting the whole build up to the big opening jaw dropping sequence and went - YES!  Really I wasn't the only one yelling - YES!

I'd go into the plot but I won't spoiler for a week to give everyone a chance to see it who hasn't.

Online Dhi

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2015, 05:04:58 PM »
The idea that Lucas made the prequels for a very young audience surely bears closer examination. If someone told me The Room was for children it would explain some things but raise many more important questions.


Offline Ananym

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2015, 06:21:52 PM »
Just got back a little while ago from seeing The Force Awakens and I enjoyed it a lot. I'm a big fan of strong female leads and the character of Rey was great. I think Harrison Ford put in the best performance of the cast and it was great watching him be Han Solo again.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2015, 07:38:41 PM »
Just saw Force Awakens and I personally loved it. It felt like the kind of movie to remind us life long fans why we loved this franchise so much after a ten year absence from the big screen (With the exception of the CG Clone Wars movie in '08). While opening the door for new fans as well.

In other news expect more than just the sequel trilogy. Disney is planning to release a slew of spin off films set in different time periods than the 30 year gap.

There is a movie in the works currently known as Rogue One: A Star Wars story. Following the story of the Rebels who stole the plans for the very original Death Star. That's right we will see how the Rebel Alliance first stole the plans that started the entire franchise.

Boba Fett will be getting some love to with his own spin off film. Nothing other than its shooting for a 2020 release date.

Now here will be the tricky one. They are planning to do a Han Solo spin off film with a younger Solo! Hollywood Reporter has said 2,500 actors have been screened for the part and lets be honest. Whoever steps up to the plate will have some freaking huge shoes to fill that belong to the legendary performance that is Harrison Ford.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2015, 07:51:00 PM »
It's an evolution of the 'Young man becomes a warrior in space' story. A New Hope, as well loved as it was, was fairly basic. An evolution of the story was inevitable, and in my opinion, a good idea. And to be honest, they did it rather well, with likeable characters, a decent amount of emotional investment and just enough of a build-up for Episode 8.

My two cents: A decent flick, and a promising start.

Offline SinXAzgard21

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2015, 11:50:34 PM »
I'm... well... I'm not as positive as a lot of other people seem to be about it.

Spoilers Ahoy... and lots of them
Seriously, lots of spoilers about lots of things; read with caution if you haven't seen the film
One last chance to not read
Have you ever watched a tribute band play?

They play the same songs as the original. They play them the say way as the original. They sound pretty similar to the original. They look pretty similar to the original. They move in a similar way to the original. But for all the talent they may possess, for all their ability to be a near perfect replica of the original, they are not the original and it is that lack of originality and lack of soul that means that a tribute band will never be as good as the real thing.

Welcome to Star Wars: The Force Awakens… the most high budget tribute act of all time.

Alternative title; Star Wars: The Star Wars Movie.

There's barely a major plot point developed or major scene presented over the 136 minutes of the Force Awakens that isn't lifted pretty much wholesale from the original trilogy. To begin with one could argue it's fan service. As it goes on you could claim it's an ironic wink to those who grew up with the original trilogy and want to relive that experience. But in the end it just becomes banal, predictable and seemingly a sign of little courage or imagination on the part of the writers and director.

Small droid that's sort of “cute” escapes with secret documents when its owner is captured? Check.
Promising Jedi fallen to the Dark Side who wears black, has a mask, speaks with a distorted voice and is a close relation to one of the major characters? Check
Giant starbase that can blow up planets? Check
Said giant starbase being taken out by a combination of star fighter attack and an infiltration? Check
Said starfighter attack involves flying down “trenches” lined with turrets while being pursued by enemy fighters? Check
A quest by a young force user to discover a famous Jedi master who has gone missing and can seemingly help them develop their understanding? Check
Major good guy character facing off with a bad guy he has a close history with and eventually sacrificing himself without much of a fight? Check
The bad guys basically being the Empire (including a mysterious master-type character) and the good guys basically being the Rebels? Check
Han Solo as a smuggler who owes dangerous people money? [Check

Some of this is deliberately played up and noted upon within the film itself; Kylo Ren is presented as being obsessed with Darth Vader which makes his obvious similarities to him somewhat understandable. Likewise there is something to be said for watching how the young characters from the original trilogy have basically become the older characters from the original trilogy with Han Solo playing a (slightly more grumpy) Obi Wan Kenobi and Luke taking on the role of Yoda. But the fact there are so many, that they are so similar and that they are so frequent meant that I struggled to meet each one with anything more than a groan. It was a very high budget tribute act… different people playing the same songs in slightly different ways while wearing similar clothes… but for me it lacked soul. It was that tribute band playing the greatest hits because they knew they'd get an "Oohh" and an "Aahh" because they were so good years ago.

Even if one gets beyond the wholescale lifting from previous movies there were things that didn't really work for me either. Despite the long running time the film covers so much ground (both literally and metaphorically) that things frequently lose their punch. The revelation that Kylo Ren was Han Solo's son came and went without much impact because there'd been little build up to it. Han and Leia having broken up? Pretty much the same. The Starkiller base destroying multiple planets (including the current seat of Senate and thus the leaders of the Republic)? It just sort of happened. Poe being alive? Barely raised an eyebrow. Part of that's the pacing; the first half (or more) of the film is relatively sedate which means there's a lot to fit in to the final third; it doesn't so much build to a crescendo as just throw the drum kit off a cliff. But even with the slower pacing some things just never seemed to develop for me. I like the idea that Finn and Rey seemingly are going for a friendship/brother and sister type relationship rather than a romantic one but their sudden closeness was a bit jarring; Finn has the one brief monologue about how Rey was the only person who looked at him a certain way and you can extrapolate how Rey, scarred by abandonment, would feel so deeply about someone coming back for her but the entire thing felt like a somewhat forced bromance. Likewise with Poe and Finn. Hell, throw in Solo and Rey as well; they seemed to have spent about five minutes together, exchanged a few lines and had a few moments where they both understood starships before she's thinking that he's the father she always wanted.

The setting itself threw up some issues that I never quite got over as I watched. The film is set 30 years after the Rebel Alliance won and overthrew the Empire. Yet the way the film goes it could just have easily been set during the height of Imperial Power. The New Order have vastly more men, ships and technology; the first half of the film features the protagonists being on the run and the second half pitches the overmatched rebels against seemingly overwhelming forces; the Resistance (and I'll mention them more later) have the same (or arguably a worse) feel as the rag tag alliance early in the original trilogy. The Republic itself is barely mentioned and the only talk of their direct military forces are a few references to the Republic fleet not being there. Exactly what the Republic Fleet found more important than a considerable military force with dark side users and a super weapon that just destroyed a whole bunch of planets in one go (including the current Senate) is never said. It's that lack of saying that got to me; we know basically nothing more about how the galaxy works 30 years after the Empire fell than we did at the Ewok party. Why has the Republic let the New Order grow as powerful as they have? What is their fleet doing? Why were the Resistance and Leia (surely an important figure) left to take them on at least one star destroyer, countless tie-fighters, a fallen Jedi (who was Luke's apprentice) and a planet sized superweapon with little more than some X-Wings? All it would have taken is a line of dialogue here or there to give at least some explanation. Maybe it's explained in the supporting media that are out there… but one shouldn't have to follow all that media to get some pretty basic questions answered.

(As for the "Resistance"... why are the soldiers from the victorious side called that? The Resistance represent the Republic, the dominant force in the galaxy… if anything shouldn't they be called the New Order and the New Order the Resistance? What exactly is it they're resisting? Why don't they have more support? Why does everything about them seem pretty run down? Why don't they have some capital ship support?)

I imagine other things like Rey suddenly becoming an expert in how to use the Force will be explained in the coming films but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be whitewashed away for now. Luke Skywalker, the Chosen One, required extensive training from both Obi Wan and Yoda to start using the Force effectively. Rey has Kylo Ren delve into her mind for a few moments and suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and outpowering Ren in a Force telekenesis contest. Likewise Maz having Luke's lightsabre… why did he give it up, where did she get it and how come no-one else came chasing after it, instead leaving it in the back room of some backwater bar? Or the fall of Kylo Ren; we're given little clue as to why he turned to the dark side and the best we can put together is that he wants to be like Vader… hardly a convincing reason. The strongest stories involving someone falling to the Dark Side are them going too far in pursuit of a generally positive aim; it may not have been well executed in the prequels but Anakin falling because he wanted to save the one he loved is the classic while the Expanded Universe-based fan theory that Palpatine fell because he realised the Republic as it was wasn't strong enough to resist the Yuuzhan Vong (which would also explain the Empire's penchant for super weapons) is a good one. Ren? Right now it appears to be that he fell “just because”. With Luke getting more (well, any…) screen time in the next film we should get more (and I think it could be a powerful story and good example of how obsession, even for good reasons, goes to the Dark Side if Luke was so worried about Ben Solo becoming a new Vader that he ended up turning him into him) but again, that doesn't mean this film should get a free pass for leaving a major element largely untouched.

Other things are personal. Kylo Ren was pretty damn effective while masked and his occasional displays of petulance struck me of being a good example of how the dark side amplifies rage. But once the mask came off I found it hard to care about him; I know for story reasons he can't be too old but he just didn't seem threatening at all. When the good guys return to their base at the end why is Leia's first reaction to hug Rey in the wake of Han's seeming death; she barely knew Rey, Rey barely knew Solo and Chewbacca… Han's best friend, the one seemingly in most need of comfort and someone Leia actually has a long relationship with… is left to stand alone. What happened to the Star Destroyer during the attack on Starkiller Base?

Here's where the courage point I mentioned earlier comes in…

Right now Disney buying Star Wars looks like a licence to print money but let's be clear… it was a risk. The Star Wars liscence will always be profitable just because they can sell so much but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars so they could sell some game licences, do a couple of cartoons and include Star Wars characters in their lineup of plushie toys. This was what they did it for… a big movie which in turn drives all the other merchandising opportunities forward. But the prequels lost a lot of good will which the community had (and even if you liked them popular memory has turned to the point where they are seen as being dreadful) and people were less likely to be forgiving. If this movie did badly (both critically and commercially) it could have been really, really bad for Disney.

If you asked the typical fan what they wanted from this new trilogy they'd have probably said for it to be less like the prequels and more like the original trilogy. So that's what we got. The Republic as a dominant military force rather than a group of rebels? That's too much like the prequels and not enough like the original trilogy. Political scenes setting out how the Republic works? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy. Watching the fall of a Jedi rather than have it having already happened and an established master/apprentice Sith relationship? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy.

That point also applied to the director as well. J. J. Abrams' re-imagining of Star Trek was a commercial success and, as a non-Trekie, I quite liked them as somewhat generic sci-fi action movies. But from what I understand a lot of Star Trek fans largely disliked them because to them they didn't feel like Star Trek movies. And I imagine that hurt J. J. Abrams. So what he did here was make the most Star Wars type movie he could by simply reusing every element of the original trilogy he could get his hands on. For me that shows a lack of courage. He didn't have the bravery to attempt to make something with the same soul as the original trilogy, he took the trappings that surrounded it.

It's appropriate in some ways; the term “Disneyfication” is a criticism generally used when something is stripped of its original character and instead given little more than the outer veneer of what it once was. And that's exactly what happened to this, the first Disney Star Wars movie.

What we got here could in many ways be argued as a re-imagining, much as the first new Star Trek film was, down to characters and actors from the original having plot important cameo roles. But what I wanted wasn't a re-imagining, I wanted a continuation.

That's not to say it's an awful film. It's generally well acted and well directed, the special effects are brilliant and it goes along well. If all you want is to be reminded of Star Wars or a generic sci-fi action film then you'll be well catered for. But I wanted something different from that.

I wanted Fugazi following on from Minor Threat. Instead I got a Minor Threat cover band.

Can't please every fanboy.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2015, 08:04:33 AM »
My only issues were with two of the villains, they just seemed silly choices, the supreme leader should just have been called "The New Emperor" and when the tide favored the First Order they could call the leader "Emperor" in later movies and the General commanding the First Order was too young they needed an older and seasoned actor for that role I chuckled at his big speech. For example what about having someone like Viggo Mortensen would have been powerful. I could see him as the General figure and better he would likely love being in Star Wars as a major bad guy if asked. And paying him would not have been an issue.

And one pet peeve the New Republic was winning so why call them The Resistance which wasn't explained if they said the elite arm of the military kept the title of the Resistance to rally the flag to the old guard of heroes it would have made more sense.

But overall it was awesome.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2015, 06:46:20 PM »
Saw SW : TFA yesterday with my son, and loved it.  Not as good as A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, but on par or better than Return of the Jedi, and far and away better than the prequels.  It was fun, and that is what matters most with entertainment.

However, for many of us (I was eight when A New Hope was released), Star Wars is more than just entertainment--it is a significant benchmark in our childhood, and therefore development.  The Hero With A Thousand Faces embodied in Luke Skywalker propelled me into my love of science fiction and fantasy.  Obi-Wan--along with Gandalf and Morpheus--fed my love of the Wise Old Mentor figure.  And to be honest, Carrie Fisher was my first crush and probably got me started on my fetish for petite women :P

There were flaws in this new film, sure.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Luke for a whole thirty seconds?  And no dialogue?
The capital of the New Republic wiped from the galaxy with nary a set-up for us to mourn it?  Not even an inadequate set-up like for Alderaan in the first film...
Finn left to heal without it ever being revealed if he's force-sensitive?
Poe dropped out of the story for a huge amount of time?  The modern-day Wedge with a personality!  I want more!
And not enough Captain Phasma...or her kicking any kind of ass.  I was hoping she'd be a female Boba Fett.  Then again, Boba didn't really kick any tail in the original films, either.  He did more butt-kicking as a kid in the prequels...

And it paid far more than homage to the first film...it followed it storytelling-wise in many ways.  But let's not kid ourselves and act like this is the first instance of copying in order to continue a franchise.  Plots have been re-invented and re-used for countless years.  Hollywood copied Shakespeare copied Greek tragedies copied spoken language tales.  This wasn't even the most thorough of copying jobs...that goes to Terry Brooks.  His novel The Sword of Shannara was a blatant rip-off of The Lord of the Rings, even if brilliantly so.  The Force Awakens is a retelling of the original film, but done with more modern sensibilities...and it has more than enough of its own gravitas.  I love Rey, Finn, and Poe.  I love how Chewie did more in this film as a character than all the other Star Wars films combined.  I adore Kylo Ren and his tortured, conflicted personality...despite his unforgivable sins.

Moreover, I like that different directors will have the opportunity to craft new Star Wars films, giving us their personal interpretation of the Star Wars universe.  Diversity is a wonderful thing.  I'm glad this franchise--to me more fantasy than science-fiction--has been brought into the present.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 04:39:59 PM by HannibalBarca »

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2015, 06:50:25 PM »
So Star Wars VIII is casting Hayden Christiansen, and I have heard people guess that he is going to be playing a cloned Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.

I have a simpler explanation: His force ghost will appear and either help the good guys, or hinder/attempt to sway Kylo Ren.  If Kylo literally worships Darth Vader, how would he react to the actual spirit of the man counseling him?

And I think my guess on Kylo's name was correct:  sKYwalker + soLO = Kylo.  Maybe he changed to that from his original name and meant it, or didn't...but it seems too coincidental to be chance as far as from a writer's perspective.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 02:17:55 AM by HannibalBarca »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2015, 07:27:45 PM »
I know my opinion won't matter because I like the prequel movies, and that's a sin, but I get the horrible feeling I'm not going to like Episode VII. I don't want a remake of Episode IV.

I think the great "retelling" of Star Wars was done in Guardians of the Galaxy. :\

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2015, 08:29:26 PM »
Spoiler alert
Actually her having Luke's old Lightsaber is possible. Remember, Luke lost that saber during the dule with Vader in Bespen in Empire strikes back. He lost it when his hand was severed. Now as for how it ended up there........ yeah I am still figuring that out.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2015, 08:58:24 PM »
In the books, the ones by Timothy Zahn, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force rising and last command, there was a clone by the name of J'houurs C'boath (sp?). The original had been a Jedi master who was part of Outbound Flight which went down. In the Zahn books, C'boath managed to get a hold of Luke's hand and lightsaber, there by creating a clone of Luke. Not the first time clones were used. Emperor Palpatine resurrected in a clone body in Dark Empire. And, they said they might use story elements from the expanded universe. It would be interesting if Emperor Palpatine resurrected in a clone body and took on Snoke to reclaim his Empire?

Offline Thorne

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2015, 09:13:46 PM »
In the books, the ones by Timothy Zahn, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force rising and last command, there was a clone by the name of J'houurs C'boath (sp?). The original had been a Jedi master who was part of Outbound Flight which went down. In the Zahn books, C'boath managed to get a hold of Luke's hand and lightsaber, there by creating a clone of Luke. Not the first time clones were used. Emperor Palpatine resurrected in a clone body in Dark Empire. And, they said they might use story elements from the expanded universe. It would be interesting if Emperor Palpatine resurrected in a clone body and took on Snoke to reclaim his Empire?

Joruus C'baoth. In the books, they added a vowel, to denote which was the clone, and which was the original.
That's an interesting theory, certainly. I'm not sure if I like it, to be honest, but it's interesting.


Offline mia h

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2015, 10:02:49 AM »
Well there have been rumors going around that Benicio Del Torro is playing Grand Admiral Thrawn only 18 months to wait and see it that's true.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2015, 01:23:55 PM »
I just saw this and I really enjoyed it. Such a long movie but it just kept on being great.

I haven't read much of the books set in the expanded universe but I couldn't help noticing similarities and differences based on things I'd mostly heard.


Online Gadifriald

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2015, 01:56:46 PM »
And, they said they might use story elements from the expanded universe.
Having seen the movie (Really enjoyed it and like it!) and also being a huge fan of the expanded universe, I can clearly say that "The Force Awakens" used story elements/ideas from the original expanded universe!

Spoilers: Only Read If You've Seen the Movie
The character of Ben Solo in name, character and personal story idea is a clear combination of Ben Skywalker and Jacen Solo from the post Return of the Jedi EU. Really, he is just Jacen Solo with the first name Ben and like Jacen turned to the Dark Side and followed in the footsteps of Vader/Anakin Skywalker. The whole character idea was obviously inspired by the EU!

The character of Rey seems very much inspired by Jaina Solo to me. Not as nearly a direct usage/copy like Ben Solo is of Jacen Solo, however, I'm pretty sure the idea for her was inspired by Jaina!

Also, the First Order arising from the fragments of the Empire very much resembles many of the post fall of the Empire Imperial resurgences from the EU. It especially resembles the Dark Empire and sequel arcs from the Dark Horse comics with a resurgent Empire on the rise behind a powerful force user (Though not the Clone Emperor!) with a hyperspace capable planet smashing super weapon that has the New Republic/Resistance on the run. So, I'm thinking they were gleaning ideas there as well


Those are the character and plot ideas that seem the most heavily borrowed from/inspired by the original EU to me! Thoughts?

Online PocketWatch

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2015, 03:05:13 PM »
I saw the sixth movie with a friend of mine yesterday and went to see the seventh today. It was great to see a lot of the side characters (aliens) reappear and get included in the story.

Tho they have really abused the 'powerful weapon, get rid of force field then attack / offspring either chose dark side or light side' story line. Hopefully they'll come up with something new for the next two movies.

I must say the jokes are far better executed. When I saw the sixth movie every joke was cringeworthy. But in the seventh it's easier to appreciate Han Solo x Chewie's humour. All in all great movie and worth seeing if you like sci fi.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2015, 03:48:38 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Rey: This is the ship that made the Kessel Run in fourteen parsecs?
Han Solo: TWELVE!

Best part of the movie, imho...

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2015, 03:51:54 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Rey: This is the ship that made the Kessel Run in fourteen parsecs?
Han Solo: TWELVE!

Best part of the movie, imho...

That was pretty damn funny.

Also
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn:Because it's the right thing to do.
Po: You need a pilot.
Finn: I need a pilot.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2015, 04:20:32 PM »
That was pretty damn funny.

Also
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn:Because it's the right thing to do.
Po: You need a pilot.
Finn: I need a pilot.

Mine was

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn: We use the Force!
Han: That's not how the Force works!

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2015, 04:26:45 PM »
I would say the it was a close tie between Ford and the actor that played Ren on who really stole that movie

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2015, 04:33:00 PM »
I really loved Ford's performance in that movie. He didn't end up being a Obi-Wan like mentor (A role I have no doubt is saved for Luke). Han has seen and dealt with so much crap but he still has that dry sense of humor.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I was somewhat expecting Han to be killed in the movie as Ford originally wanted his character to perish in Return of the Jedi. It made sense he would come back if they would lay his character to rest. You see Han going onto that bridge to confront his son. You can tell its about to happen. BUT WHEN IT HAPPENED IT WAS STILL HEART WRENCHING!! :'(

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2015, 04:45:17 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
The Captain Phasma/Han/Finn dialogue about putting her in a trash compactor was the best humor to me :P

Offline Ananym

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2015, 04:59:09 PM »
It blew me away when I learned that Captain Phasma was the actress that plays Brienne of Tarth from Game of Thrones. I'm hoping that they do a lot more with her character in a future Star Wars episodes. She's a good actress and really steals a scene.

Offline Aiden

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2015, 09:08:38 PM »
I agree, I am hoping this leads up to CP to being a thorn in their sides for the next trilogy.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Yes I know she might have perished, but I hope she didn't

Offline Caela

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2015, 10:28:26 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Rey: This is the ship that made the Kessel Run in fourteen parsecs?
Han Solo: TWELVE!

Best part of the movie, imho...

+1 that was great!

Offline Caela

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2015, 10:30:10 PM »
I agree, I am hoping this leads up to CP to being a thorn in their sides for the next trilogy.
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Online Remiel

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #90 on: December 22, 2015, 12:53:29 AM »
I'm... well... I'm not as positive as a lot of other people seem to be about it.

Spoilers Ahoy... and lots of them
Seriously, lots of spoilers about lots of things; read with caution if you haven't seen the film
One last chance to not read
Have you ever watched a tribute band play?

They play the same songs as the original. They play them the say way as the original. They sound pretty similar to the original. They look pretty similar to the original. They move in a similar way to the original. But for all the talent they may possess, for all their ability to be a near perfect replica of the original, they are not the original and it is that lack of originality and lack of soul that means that a tribute band will never be as good as the real thing.

Welcome to Star Wars: The Force Awakens… the most high budget tribute act of all time.

Alternative title; Star Wars: The Star Wars Movie.

There's barely a major plot point developed or major scene presented over the 136 minutes of the Force Awakens that isn't lifted pretty much wholesale from the original trilogy. To begin with one could argue it's fan service. As it goes on you could claim it's an ironic wink to those who grew up with the original trilogy and want to relive that experience. But in the end it just becomes banal, predictable and seemingly a sign of little courage or imagination on the part of the writers and director.

Small droid that's sort of “cute” escapes with secret documents when its owner is captured? Check.
Promising Jedi fallen to the Dark Side who wears black, has a mask, speaks with a distorted voice and is a close relation to one of the major characters? Check
Giant starbase that can blow up planets? Check
Said giant starbase being taken out by a combination of star fighter attack and an infiltration? Check
Said starfighter attack involves flying down “trenches” lined with turrets while being pursued by enemy fighters? Check
A quest by a young force user to discover a famous Jedi master who has gone missing and can seemingly help them develop their understanding? Check
Major good guy character facing off with a bad guy he has a close history with and eventually sacrificing himself without much of a fight? Check
The bad guys basically being the Empire (including a mysterious master-type character) and the good guys basically being the Rebels? Check
Han Solo as a smuggler who owes dangerous people money? [Check

Some of this is deliberately played up and noted upon within the film itself; Kylo Ren is presented as being obsessed with Darth Vader which makes his obvious similarities to him somewhat understandable. Likewise there is something to be said for watching how the young characters from the original trilogy have basically become the older characters from the original trilogy with Han Solo playing a (slightly more grumpy) Obi Wan Kenobi and Luke taking on the role of Yoda. But the fact there are so many, that they are so similar and that they are so frequent meant that I struggled to meet each one with anything more than a groan. It was a very high budget tribute act… different people playing the same songs in slightly different ways while wearing similar clothes… but for me it lacked soul. It was that tribute band playing the greatest hits because they knew they'd get an "Oohh" and an "Aahh" because they were so good years ago.

Even if one gets beyond the wholescale lifting from previous movies there were things that didn't really work for me either. Despite the long running time the film covers so much ground (both literally and metaphorically) that things frequently lose their punch. The revelation that Kylo Ren was Han Solo's son came and went without much impact because there'd been little build up to it. Han and Leia having broken up? Pretty much the same. The Starkiller base destroying multiple planets (including the current seat of Senate and thus the leaders of the Republic)? It just sort of happened. Poe being alive? Barely raised an eyebrow. Part of that's the pacing; the first half (or more) of the film is relatively sedate which means there's a lot to fit in to the final third; it doesn't so much build to a crescendo as just throw the drum kit off a cliff. But even with the slower pacing some things just never seemed to develop for me. I like the idea that Finn and Rey seemingly are going for a friendship/brother and sister type relationship rather than a romantic one but their sudden closeness was a bit jarring; Finn has the one brief monologue about how Rey was the only person who looked at him a certain way and you can extrapolate how Rey, scarred by abandonment, would feel so deeply about someone coming back for her but the entire thing felt like a somewhat forced bromance. Likewise with Poe and Finn. Hell, throw in Solo and Rey as well; they seemed to have spent about five minutes together, exchanged a few lines and had a few moments where they both understood starships before she's thinking that he's the father she always wanted.

The setting itself threw up some issues that I never quite got over as I watched. The film is set 30 years after the Rebel Alliance won and overthrew the Empire. Yet the way the film goes it could just have easily been set during the height of Imperial Power. The New Order have vastly more men, ships and technology; the first half of the film features the protagonists being on the run and the second half pitches the overmatched rebels against seemingly overwhelming forces; the Resistance (and I'll mention them more later) have the same (or arguably a worse) feel as the rag tag alliance early in the original trilogy. The Republic itself is barely mentioned and the only talk of their direct military forces are a few references to the Republic fleet not being there. Exactly what the Republic Fleet found more important than a considerable military force with dark side users and a super weapon that just destroyed a whole bunch of planets in one go (including the current Senate) is never said. It's that lack of saying that got to me; we know basically nothing more about how the galaxy works 30 years after the Empire fell than we did at the Ewok party. Why has the Republic let the New Order grow as powerful as they have? What is their fleet doing? Why were the Resistance and Leia (surely an important figure) left to take them on at least one star destroyer, countless tie-fighters, a fallen Jedi (who was Luke's apprentice) and a planet sized superweapon with little more than some X-Wings? All it would have taken is a line of dialogue here or there to give at least some explanation. Maybe it's explained in the supporting media that are out there… but one shouldn't have to follow all that media to get some pretty basic questions answered.

(As for the "Resistance"... why are the soldiers from the victorious side called that? The Resistance represent the Republic, the dominant force in the galaxy… if anything shouldn't they be called the New Order and the New Order the Resistance? What exactly is it they're resisting? Why don't they have more support? Why does everything about them seem pretty run down? Why don't they have some capital ship support?)

I imagine other things like Rey suddenly becoming an expert in how to use the Force will be explained in the coming films but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be whitewashed away for now. Luke Skywalker, the Chosen One, required extensive training from both Obi Wan and Yoda to start using the Force effectively. Rey has Kylo Ren delve into her mind for a few moments and suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and outpowering Ren in a Force telekenesis contest. Likewise Maz having Luke's lightsabre… why did he give it up, where did she get it and how come no-one else came chasing after it, instead leaving it in the back room of some backwater bar? Or the fall of Kylo Ren; we're given little clue as to why he turned to the dark side and the best we can put together is that he wants to be like Vader… hardly a convincing reason. The strongest stories involving someone falling to the Dark Side are them going too far in pursuit of a generally positive aim; it may not have been well executed in the prequels but Anakin falling because he wanted to save the one he loved is the classic while the Expanded Universe-based fan theory that Palpatine fell because he realised the Republic as it was wasn't strong enough to resist the Yuuzhan Vong (which would also explain the Empire's penchant for super weapons) is a good one. Ren? Right now it appears to be that he fell “just because”. With Luke getting more (well, any…) screen time in the next film we should get more (and I think it could be a powerful story and good example of how obsession, even for good reasons, goes to the Dark Side if Luke was so worried about Ben Solo becoming a new Vader that he ended up turning him into him) but again, that doesn't mean this film should get a free pass for leaving a major element largely untouched.

Other things are personal. Kylo Ren was pretty damn effective while masked and his occasional displays of petulance struck me of being a good example of how the dark side amplifies rage. But once the mask came off I found it hard to care about him; I know for story reasons he can't be too old but he just didn't seem threatening at all. When the good guys return to their base at the end why is Leia's first reaction to hug Rey in the wake of Han's seeming death; she barely knew Rey, Rey barely knew Solo and Chewbacca… Han's best friend, the one seemingly in most need of comfort and someone Leia actually has a long relationship with… is left to stand alone. What happened to the Star Destroyer during the attack on Starkiller Base?

Here's where the courage point I mentioned earlier comes in…

Right now Disney buying Star Wars looks like a licence to print money but let's be clear… it was a risk. The Star Wars liscence will always be profitable just because they can sell so much but Disney didn't pay four billion dollars so they could sell some game licences, do a couple of cartoons and include Star Wars characters in their lineup of plushie toys. This was what they did it for… a big movie which in turn drives all the other merchandising opportunities forward. But the prequels lost a lot of good will which the community had (and even if you liked them popular memory has turned to the point where they are seen as being dreadful) and people were less likely to be forgiving. If this movie did badly (both critically and commercially) it could have been really, really bad for Disney.

If you asked the typical fan what they wanted from this new trilogy they'd have probably said for it to be less like the prequels and more like the original trilogy. So that's what we got. The Republic as a dominant military force rather than a group of rebels? That's too much like the prequels and not enough like the original trilogy. Political scenes setting out how the Republic works? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy. Watching the fall of a Jedi rather than have it having already happened and an established master/apprentice Sith relationship? Too much like the prequels, not enough like the original trilogy.

That point also applied to the director as well. J. J. Abrams' re-imagining of Star Trek was a commercial success and, as a non-Trekie, I quite liked them as somewhat generic sci-fi action movies. But from what I understand a lot of Star Trek fans largely disliked them because to them they didn't feel like Star Trek movies. And I imagine that hurt J. J. Abrams. So what he did here was make the most Star Wars type movie he could by simply reusing every element of the original trilogy he could get his hands on. For me that shows a lack of courage. He didn't have the bravery to attempt to make something with the same soul as the original trilogy, he took the trappings that surrounded it.

It's appropriate in some ways; the term “Disneyfication” is a criticism generally used when something is stripped of its original character and instead given little more than the outer veneer of what it once was. And that's exactly what happened to this, the first Disney Star Wars movie.

What we got here could in many ways be argued as a re-imagining, much as the first new Star Trek film was, down to characters and actors from the original having plot important cameo roles. But what I wanted wasn't a re-imagining, I wanted a continuation.

That's not to say it's an awful film. It's generally well acted and well directed, the special effects are brilliant and it goes along well. If all you want is to be reminded of Star Wars or a generic sci-fi action film then you'll be well catered for. But I wanted something different from that.

I wanted Fugazi following on from Minor Threat. Instead I got a Minor Threat cover band.

I agree with this completely.  To the very letter.   Star Wars VII: Star Wars, the Remake.

My prevailing thought upon seeing this was, "wait--they blew up the damn Death Star...again?"

Still, I really liked that Abrams followed Lucas' decision to cast unknowns.  In an era where celebrity is recursive (where people go to watch celebrities because they are...well, celebrities)  getting some fresh talent in a major high-budget feature is refreshing.   And even the cynical bastard in me fanboy'd a bit at seeing Mark Hamill again.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #91 on: December 22, 2015, 02:09:15 AM »
I heard that when..

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Rey is held prisoner and strapped into that contraption in her cell, and she tries to convince the stormtrooper to let her out using the jedi mind trick..

That was Daniel Craig in the stormtrooper armour.

Offline Mnemaxa

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #92 on: December 22, 2015, 03:54:22 AM »
I heard that when..

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Rey is held prisoner and strapped into that contraption in her cell, and she tries to convince the stormtrooper to let her out using the jedi mind trick..

That was Daniel Craig in the stormtrooper armour.

It is true.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #93 on: December 22, 2015, 11:59:31 AM »
A lot of people have complained about Starkiller base and the recurring planet-killing weapon systems in Star Wars.  Honestly, my question is, why would a political/military entity not continue to create such weapons?  The United States didn't stop making nuclear weapons after they used up 2 of the 3 they'd created at the end of World War 2.  Go with what works, and despite their destruction, they worked pretty well.

In the final analysis, there has to be a balance between suspension of disbelief and common sense for fantasy fiction to work.  The trope of let's get out of here, the place is gonna blow has been a very long-running one, and used in too many works of fiction to count.

I do have to say that the best Star Wars to me, ESB, didn't have a planet-killing, it's gonna blow ending...and maybe that was part of its charm.  But J.J. was cranking up the Star Wars universe again, so recurring tropes and themes wasn't a problem for me.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2015, 08:52:46 PM »
A lot of people have complained about Starkiller base and the recurring planet-killing weapon systems in Star Wars.  Honestly, my question is, why would a political/military entity not continue to create such weapons?  The United States didn't stop making nuclear weapons after they used up 2 of the 3 they'd created at the end of World War 2.  Go with what works, and despite their destruction, they worked pretty well.

In the final analysis, there has to be a balance between suspension of disbelief and common sense for fantasy fiction to work.  The trope of let's get out of here, the place is gonna blow has been a very long-running one, and used in too many works of fiction to count.

I do have to say that the best Star Wars to me, ESB, didn't have a planet-killing, it's gonna blow ending...and maybe that was part of its charm.  But J.J. was cranking up the Star Wars universe again, so recurring tropes and themes wasn't a problem for me.

In the First Order's defense the thing was a good investment with one attack they pretty much wiped out their only serious military rival and cut the balls off of the Resistance plus caused chaos among the stellar economy most likely with most of the important core planets wiped out ferociously. Now militarily there is nothing on the field to oppose them for the intermediate future.


Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2015, 09:23:38 PM »
A planet-killing starbase has proven itself a deficit weapon platform. Nukes are effective because they're fast an nigh on unstoppable.

The Deathstar and its ilk, not so much. They're more a retelling of the story of the Bismark, not being the new nuke.

What the Deathstar was supposed to be was the big boot of the Emperor to quash rebellion wherever it might crop up. It wasn't there as an instrument of war, just terror.

Though question: Where are atomics in the Star Wars universe? Where's the radiation?

Online Remiel

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2015, 10:17:06 PM »
Though question: Where are atomics in the Star Wars universe? Where's the radiation?

I think House Harkonnen has them all.  ;D

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2015, 10:59:39 PM »
I think of it as a chess game, trading a bishop or knight for a queen.  Alderaan, a core world and heart of rebel sympathy, traded for a fifty-mile diameter battlestation.  A few hundred thousand soldiers and crew given up for billions of civilian lives and galactic terror.  Similarly with The New Republic worlds traded for Starkiller Base.  Expensive trade...but an invasion and fleet battle would have been expensive, too...and that would have left the planets intact and able to be recaptured.

Quote
Though question: Where are atomics in the Star Wars universe? Where's the radiation?

Nuclear weapons don't equate to escapist entertainment, I guess...too close to home.

Quote
I think House Harkonnen has them all.  ;D

Dune was more a cerebral science fiction work than the entertainment-friendly Star Wars universe...and Muad'dib was hardcore compared to Luke Skywalker.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 11:58:39 PM by HannibalBarca »

Offline Oniya

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2015, 11:03:32 PM »
Nuclear weapons don't equate to escapist entertainment, I guess...to close to home.

I thought the whole purpose of Star Wars was to prevent missile attacks.  ;D

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2015, 12:02:41 AM »
Quote
I thought the whole purpose of Star Wars was to prevent missile attacks.  ;D

That was according to Ronnie Ray-gun!


On another topic Star Wars-ish...what is up with people abandoning the good fight to run off and pout about their failures?  Yoda did it, Obi-Wan did it, and now Luke does it.

For that matter, abandoning your child/charge to grow up under horrible conditions does not a 'wise mentor' make.  Dumbledore did it with Harry, and if I was Harry, I never would have forgiven him for leaving me with my abusive relatives.  I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter, and if she is...well, ABANDONING her on a desert planet to be raised as a virtual slave leaves him quite bereft in the morality department, let alone the good parent department.

At least Obi-Wan left Luke in the care of two compassionate, hard-working, decent adults.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2015, 05:49:33 PM »
I don't think it was so much about pouting about their failures as it was making sure the next generation was ready.

In Revenge of the Sith both Obi-Wan and Yoda were unable to kill both Sidious and Vader. Yoda was only able to hold Sidous to a draw and had to flee before clones showed up and gunned him down. Obi-Wan couldn't go through with killing someone he loved as a brother.

So with that said what else could they do? The whole reason the Jedi went into hiding was so their beliefs and teachings could be passed onto others who would be able to defeat the Sith Lord in charge. It may be the slow route but what else could the Jedi do at that point other than being killed?

By surviving they ensured that when someone strong enough in the Force could be taught properly and be ready to stop the evil.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
I think this is why Luke went into hiding to begin with. When Kylo Ren destroyed his order he realized he couldn't stop his nephew and knew that one day someone, somewhere would be able to. And that someone needed his guidance or they would fail in their mission. Plus for all we know Rey may be related to Luke but was captured and taken away from him. I wouldn't be surprised if they were family but some idiot separated them by force. Either for Rey's protection as no one would look on Jakku or for profit for a child slave


Offline hamish1024

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2015, 12:20:00 PM »
Mine was

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn: We use the Force!
Han: That's not how the Force works!

I'm still smiling at

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
You probably don't recognize me because of my red arm!!


Unexpectedly good cameo

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #102 on: December 25, 2015, 04:32:29 PM »
*Wishes Captain Phasma had a bigger role* well at least since she wasn't killed on screen she has a chance to appear later on. ~<3

Online Matttheman89

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2015, 06:54:07 PM »
It's been confirmed that she'll be back for at least the next movie, so I'm sure she'll be given more to do in Episode VIII. The character's basically on the road to becoming the Boba Fett of the Sequel Trilogy in terms of popularity, so they have to know it'd be a missed opportunity not to use her in a larger capacity.

And I have to say, I hope they give her a bigger role as well. I like her as well.  :D

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2015, 11:31:54 AM »
HaAHAHHAA oh god I love all the funny images people are coming out with now :-)


Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2015, 03:27:36 PM »
So I've finally seen it, and there are quite a few missteps.

Just in Case
Like the New Order is a total flub in my opinion, and honestly it's the problem with the whole Star Wars universe, but it's really highlighted in this film. Why can't it just be New Republic versus New Order, why has there got to be a Rebellion... oops I mean Resistance, totally different.

I also don't think Rey (Ray, Rae?) is nearly as fertile ground a Finn for a new feel. Seriously, dirt world waif has force powers, haven't we done this twice, and this time we don't have the novelty of watching a good person go darkside. :P

The disillusioned Storm Trooper angle is great (Note that I have a passing knowledge of the expanded universe, so naturally it was already done there).

I mean, what was the functional difference between Jakku and Tatooine?

There were three elements in this movie:

There was the unique fresh elements. Fantastic.
There was the homages. Which are to be expected.
But there was also the pandering to the fandom which really hamstrung the whole thing I thought.

I mean seriously the villain wants to be Vadar Junior, and yes it's established, but it's also really just pander.

Fun and fantastic movie, but honestly, better than all the prequels combined and anything George Lucas has ever done? (Heard that in the theater)

Nah.

Not going to stop me from getting the nine-film boxset though.

Offline Stella

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #106 on: December 29, 2015, 02:43:49 AM »
Having seen the movie (Really enjoyed it and like it!) and also being a huge fan of the expanded universe, I can clearly say that "The Force Awakens" used story elements/ideas from the original expanded universe!

Spoilers: Only Read If You've Seen the Movie
The character of Ben Solo in name, character and personal story idea is a clear combination of Ben Skywalker and Jacen Solo from the post Return of the Jedi EU. Really, he is just Jacen Solo with the first name Ben and like Jacen turned to the Dark Side and followed in the footsteps of Vader/Anakin Skywalker. The whole character idea was obviously inspired by the EU!

The character of Rey seems very much inspired by Jaina Solo to me. Not as nearly a direct usage/copy like Ben Solo is of Jacen Solo, however, I'm pretty sure the idea for her was inspired by Jaina!

Also, the First Order arising from the fragments of the Empire very much resembles many of the post fall of the Empire Imperial resurgences from the EU. It especially resembles the Dark Empire and sequel arcs from the Dark Horse comics with a resurgent Empire on the rise behind a powerful force user (Though not the Clone Emperor!) with a hyperspace capable planet smashing super weapon that has the New Republic/Resistance on the run. So, I'm thinking they were gleaning ideas there as well


Those are the character and plot ideas that seem the most heavily borrowed from/inspired by the original EU to me! Thoughts?

Definitely. I felt quite ripped off about that. Rey was basically Jaina - great fighter, great pilot, mechanical intuition. And Kylo Ren was Jacen. The Starkiller (clever nod to Luke's original surname - !) was like Darksaber, or the Sun Crusher, just ... bigger.

I'm a long-time SW fan who has been pretty indifferent in the lead-up to this installment. Saw it today for the first time. It was okay. It did what it was supposed to and not much more. It was okay.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #107 on: December 29, 2015, 06:22:11 AM »
This story was on the news today. Apparently Rey's been left out of a lot of Star Wars merchandise and people are asking why.

Note: There are mild spoilers in that article.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/star-wars-fans-ask-wheresrey-as-the-force-awakens-hero-left-out-of-merchandise/news-story/8967d9b6c1c13fd5a3a0591248965ee4

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #108 on: December 31, 2015, 04:34:59 PM »
While I will agree the movie had its flaws I am worried about one thing.

Yes the movie had A New Hope skeleton setup for the plot...I'm worried the next two movies will follow suit and have a Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi skeleton. The end of the Force Awakens gives off a few hints to some plot points from Empire Strikes Back which is making me think that will indeed happen. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed The Force Awakens but I don't want that structure to follow for all three movies.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #109 on: December 31, 2015, 04:40:23 PM »
While I will agree the movie had its flaws I am worried about one thing.

Yes the movie had A New Hope skeleton setup for the plot...I'm worried the next two movies will follow suit and have a Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi skeleton. The end of the Force Awakens gives off a few hints to some plot points from Empire Strikes Back which is making me think that will indeed happen. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed The Force Awakens but I don't want that structure to follow for all three movies.
I get a feeling that's what's going to happen. Call it a hunch.

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #110 on: December 31, 2015, 04:53:03 PM »
Can't believe I just saw this thread! lol

Personally, I enjoyed the movie. As a HUUUUUGE fan of both Star Wars and the EU, I was very reluctant when they washed away everything, and it still stings. However, I was actually pleased with how things turned out. The movie wasn't great. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Continue the Star Wars Universe via a sequel. And I am really loving that Rey is the main protagonist as long as they don't make her related to anyone. That trope is getting really old, really fast. Let her be her own person that the audience can connect to so when she becomes a Jedi, the theme is similar to Luke. Anybody has the power to become something special, not just because you're related to someone special.

I am a little disappointed in the film aspect of The Force Awakens. It was pretty much a movie that was made for a sequel. And being the first of a trilogy, I think that's a bummer. Episodes I and IV could stand on their own merits with storytelling. VII couldn't really do that, which is a shame.

I'm still thinking of forming a petition for putting Kyle Katarn in the new movies. He needs to be canon and fast!

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2015, 04:55:45 PM »
I get a feeling that's what's going to happen. Call it a hunch.


Well may as well kill the hopes of those out there on this site wanting to see Rey in a Slave Leia outfit. Carrie Fisher actually told Daisey Riddler to not be a slave like her.

Plus its Disney and they are planning on banning the Slave Leia merchandise anyway.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2015, 05:04:21 PM »
If Rey isn't related to anyone I'll be surprised.

But this she's the main protagonist stuff is perhaps not the most accurate statement. It's fairly obvious that she and Finn are sharing the protagonist spot (depending on how literally you define the word). They both held the talisman. *shrugs* They've both refused the call.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2015, 05:10:30 PM »
Did the trailers leading up to it not feel like a bait and switch as to who would be the Force Sensitive one? I mean I had my suspicions Rey would be but seeing Finn use a lightsaber made me think he was going to be one as well and was a big reason why he defected.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #114 on: December 31, 2015, 05:22:09 PM »
Did the trailers leading up to it not feel like a bait and switch as to who would be the Force Sensitive one? I mean I had my suspicions Rey would be but seeing Finn use a lightsaber made me think he was going to be one as well and was a big reason why he defected.
He still might be. Remember, in New Hope Luke wasn't that great in the Force department either.

Just in Case
Rey's actually showing an insane amount of force sensitivity for the lack of training she's had. Also Finn did go toe to toe with Vadar Jr. without getting immediately killed or de-limbing himself so there's that


Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #115 on: December 31, 2015, 05:29:24 PM »
He still might be. Remember, in New Hope Luke wasn't that great in the Force department either.

Just in Case
Rey's actually showing an insane amount of force sensitivity for the lack of training she's had. Also Finn did go toe to toe with Vadar Jr. without getting immediately killed or de-limbing himself so there's that

Finn was also trained in combat as a Stormtrooper, so that probably helped some. And we never saw him use the Force from what I recall. So it isn't all that impressive.
If Rey isn't related to anyone I'll be surprised.

But this she's the main protagonist stuff is perhaps not the most accurate statement. It's fairly obvious that she and Finn are sharing the protagonist spot (depending on how literally you define the word). They both held the talisman. *shrugs* They've both refused the call.

I was referring more to going the way of the Jedi, ala Luke. To me that's the main protagonist's role. Though I think Rey, Finn, and Poe will all share the limelight just like in the OT

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #116 on: December 31, 2015, 05:32:24 PM »
Did the trailers leading up to it not feel like a bait and switch as to who would be the Force Sensitive one? I mean I had my suspicions Rey would be but seeing Finn use a lightsaber made me think he was going to be one as well and was a big reason why he defected.

Oh it was a TOTAL bait and switch. But, one I actually liked. I can really get behind Rey's character and think it's a great change of pace for their to be a stronger female lead role in Star Wars. And, I always loved Jaina Solo, so it's nice to see something similar.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2015, 05:43:18 PM »
My problem is that she doesn't have much in the way of flaws. She's really close to feeling Sue-ish


Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2015, 05:56:04 PM »
I felt her obsession with staying on Jakku to wait for her parents was a flaw. That and her running away after her little vision was pretty close to one as well. It caused a couple of problems and next movie we may see her feel responsible
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn's Coma and Han's death for not acting sooner


Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #119 on: December 31, 2015, 05:58:57 PM »
He still might be. Remember, in New Hope Luke wasn't that great in the Force department either.

Just in Case
Rey's actually showing an insane amount of force sensitivity for the lack of training she's had. Also Finn did go toe to toe with Vadar Jr. without getting immediately killed or de-limbing himself so there's that

Do we still need to spoiler tag everything at this point?

Assuming we do
It's worth going back to watch a New Hope to remind yourself how utterly useless Luke is for 95% of the movie. Basically right up to the final Death Star battle whenever he's in a situation that's even vaguely dangerous he requires one of Obi Wan, Han/Chewie or Leia to save him. His biggest achievement is being able to fire two torpedoes down a small gap... and even then that's only because Han came in to save the day. For almost the entirety of a New Hope Luke's uselessness actually makes life more difficult for those around him and as such we get to see a real journey in his development. To use MOBA terminology (of all things) Luke's role is basically the definition of a "carry"; a character that starts off being so bad that your best tactic is basically to keep them out the way and hope no-one notices them but by the end is the most powerful character out there.

Rey in contrast starts out pretty awesome already. Seemingly without any training and little more than Ren diving into her head she's able to use Jedi mind tricks (did Luke manage that till the third film?) and not use use Force telekinesis but overpower a trained force user in a contest of their skill (again, did Luke show any ability at that until at least the second film and heavy training under Yoda?). Then there's her hand to hand fighting skills, her ability to immediately pilot the Falcon like an ace, the fact she knows just as much (if not more) about it than Solo etc etc. While Luke was constantly in real peril and needing to be saved in a New Hope during the Force Awakens there's only really one similar moment with Rey (when Ren holds her in place). She's not just shown an incredible amount of force sensitivity, she's shown an incredible amount of overall badassness which I think may actually detract somewhat from her character over three movies; she's so talented now that she either has to become insanely good at everything or experience little in the way of growth.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2015, 06:01:25 PM »
I felt her obsession with staying on Jakku to wait for her parents was a flaw. That and her running away after her little vision was pretty close to one as well. It caused a couple of problems and next movie we may see her feel responsible
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Finn's Coma and Han's death for not acting sooner
Dude, try to keep spoilers in mind.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
What's her other flaw paresthesia? I would lump that more in with her refusal of the Call rather than an actual character flaw. It's also obviously reconciled with the ending of the movie, rather handily too.

So I'm upping her to full on Mary Sue in my book. She's too good at too much with no other real hangups.

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2015, 06:12:11 PM »
Do we still need to spoiler tag everything at this point?

Assuming we do
It's worth going back to watch a New Hope to remind yourself how utterly useless Luke is for 95% of the movie. Basically right up to the final Death Star battle whenever he's in a situation that's even vaguely dangerous he requires one of Obi Wan, Han/Chewie or Leia to save him. His biggest achievement is being able to fire two torpedoes down a small gap... and even then that's only because Han came in to save the day. For almost the entirety of a New Hope Luke's uselessness actually makes life more difficult for those around him and as such we get to see a real journey in his development. To use MOBA terminology (of all things) Luke's role is basically the definition of a "carry"; a character that starts off being so bad that your best tactic is basically to keep them out the way and hope no-one notices them but by the end is the most powerful character out there.

Rey in contrast starts out pretty awesome already. Seemingly without any training and little more than Ren diving into her head she's able to use Jedi mind tricks (did Luke manage that till the third film?) and not use use Force telekinesis but overpower a trained force user in a contest of their skill (again, did Luke show any ability at that until at least the second film and heavy training under Yoda?). Then there's her hand to hand fighting skills, her ability to immediately pilot the Falcon like an ace, the fact she knows just as much (if not more) about it than Solo etc etc. While Luke was constantly in real peril and needing to be saved in a New Hope during the Force Awakens there's only really one similar moment with Rey (when Ren holds her in place). She's not just shown an incredible amount of force sensitivity, she's shown an incredible amount of overall badassness which I think may actually detract somewhat from her character over three movies; she's so talented now that she either has to become insanely good at everything or experience little in the way of growth.

Couldn't agree more with the lack of a flaw point. Some of the things she did just didn't make sense and pulled me out of the movie. The ONLY reason I looked past it was because it's Star Wars and it's allowed to get away with some things. And I'm assuming there will be more explanation in the coming years. So I'm cautiously going to let them slide for now.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rey's ego get the better of her now that I think about it. That'd be an interesting flaw that we really haven't seen done in Star Wars movies. She's good, and she could know it. But, that could tempt her into overestimating things.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2015, 06:22:13 PM »
Couldn't agree more with the lack of a flaw point. Some of the things she did just didn't make sense and pulled me out of the movie. The ONLY reason I looked past it was because it's Star Wars and it's allowed to get away with some things. And I'm assuming there will be more explanation in the coming years. So I'm cautiously going to let them slide for now.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rey's ego get the better of her now that I think about it. That'd be an interesting flaw that we really haven't seen done in Star Wars movies. She's good, and she could know it. But, that could tempt her into overestimating things.
Except she doesn't have much in the way of pride or ego. So backpedaling would probably be seen as dumbing down or "ruining" her. The problem with this kind of thing is once you go up you can't go back down and they started at the tippy top.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Also remember that anyone who thinks that Finn's battle with Vadar Jr. was unexpected because of his training remember that A.) He was a storm trooper (you know those guys who go to school to not hit anything and Wilhelm scream). B.) He wasn't a particularly good storm trooper, freaking out on fight one. C.) He was a janitor. So yeah. Pretty freaking impressive from where I sit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 06:23:18 PM by Inkidu »

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2015, 06:45:03 PM »
Couldn't agree more with the lack of a flaw point. Some of the things she did just didn't make sense and pulled me out of the movie. The ONLY reason I looked past it was because it's Star Wars and it's allowed to get away with some things. And I'm assuming there will be more explanation in the coming years. So I'm cautiously going to let them slide for now.

I imagine there will certainly be explanations given and you can see people attempting to rationalise most of it away already; she's been a single woman on a rough-and-tumble frontier world so obviously she knows how to fight, she a scavenger so she has to know how ships work etc etc. Likewise if the predictions that she's Luke's daughter and/or previously received Jedi training before being stranded come true then that gives them a way to explain away why she's so strong with the Force.

But the issue for me isn't just the lack of explanation (although that is one; for me the best stories, even if part of a series, work on a self-contained level as well) it's also the very fact that she's so brilliant at everything in the first place. To go back to New Hope again would that have told a better story if Luke had been great at everything from the beginning, able to outduel Vader both with the lightsaber and the force, as good a pilot of the Falcon as Solo, knowing just as much about fixing it as Solo and Chewie etc etc? Hell, even little things like him being able to fight off the Tusken Raiders or not needing Obi Wan to protect him in the Cantina? For me it wouldn't. It may be a cliche and a trope but "the Hero's Journey" has become a cliche and a trope because it works and what Luke goes on is basically the definitive Hero's Journey. Take that away and it all becomes less effective.

I also can't just give them a free pass on it because it's something they have actually covered before (as set out above). While they never did the same thing for Anakin that's because his background and plot were different; by the time we meet him as an adult it's already been established that he's been training for years as a Jedi and that's he's got great skill, power and potential but lacks experience and control. His important journey is how he became a villain and while they may not have been well executed (partly down to the script, partly down to the performance) it was at least something they tried to show and develop.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rey's ego get the better of her now that I think about it. That'd be an interesting flaw that we really haven't seen done in Star Wars movies. She's good, and she could know it. But, that could tempt her into overestimating things.

That's largely just Anakin's flaw that caused him to fall; I'm the Chosen One, I've got all this power, surely I can save the ones I love? Oh, the Dark Side... well, I'm the one who's meant to bring balance to the force right? Surely I've got the power to control that?

In fact it's hard to think of too many Jedi in either the official or the Legends/EU stuff who had a tragic fall (as opposed to just being power hungry) where over confidence and ego wouldn't be a significant element.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2015, 06:51:57 PM »
Yeah, I can only imagine the shit-storm if they tried to nerf Rey. I think at best one could be hoped to be called a misogynist. :|

Actually, I think I'm going to bow out of this one. I didn't find the movie great enough to want to field more in those lines of criticism. :P

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2015, 08:51:09 PM »
Except she doesn't have much in the way of pride or ego. So backpedaling would probably be seen as dumbing down or "ruining" her. The problem with this kind of thing is once you go up you can't go back down and they started at the tippy top.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Also remember that anyone who thinks that Finn's battle with Vadar Jr. was unexpected because of his training remember that A.) He was a storm trooper (you know those guys who go to school to not hit anything and Wilhelm scream). B.) He wasn't a particularly good storm trooper, freaking out on fight one. C.) He was a janitor. So yeah. Pretty freaking impressive from where I sit.

Eh, I wasn't all that impressed as I stated, he was trained and according to a book that goes into his backstory, he was in the top 1% of Stormtroopers in training. Although good point on the backpedaling issue. It would probably dumb down Rey's character. I'm going to file it under "Disney wanted a strong female character" for now and see what comes out.

But the issue for me isn't just the lack of explanation (although that is one; for me the best stories, even if part of a series, work on a self-contained level as well) it's also the very fact that she's so brilliant at everything in the first place. To go back to New Hope again would that have told a better story if Luke had been great at everything from the beginning, able to outduel Vader both with the lightsaber and the force, as good a pilot of the Falcon as Solo, knowing just as much about fixing it as Solo and Chewie etc etc? Hell, even little things like him being able to fight off the Tusken Raiders or not needing Obi Wan to protect him in the Cantina? For me it wouldn't. It may be a cliche and a trope but "the Hero's Journey" has become a cliche and a trope because it works and what Luke goes on is basically the definitive Hero's Journey. Take that away and it all becomes less effective.

I also can't just give them a free pass on it because it's something they have actually covered before (as set out above). While they never did the same thing for Anakin that's because his background and plot were different; by the time we meet him as an adult it's already been established that he's been training for years as a Jedi and that's he's got great skill, power and potential but lacks experience and control. His important journey is how he became a villain and while they may not have been well executed (partly down to the script, partly down to the performance) it was at least something they tried to show and develop.

That's largely just Anakin's flaw that caused him to fall; I'm the Chosen One, I've got all this power, surely I can save the ones I love? Oh, the Dark Side... well, I'm the one who's meant to bring balance to the force right? Surely I've got the power to control that?

In fact it's hard to think of too many Jedi in either the official or the Legends/EU stuff who had a tragic fall (as opposed to just being power hungry) where over confidence and ego wouldn't be a significant element.

I could have bought it all except
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Her sudden mastery of the Force. Out of no where, she can use the Jedi Mind Trick, which it took Luke years to learn. She can pull a lightsaber against someone who's also trying to pull it, without little training. That's what took me out of the movie. I was like, "She then what the fuck does she really need to learn from Luke!?" She's had zero training and can do these things? Being a good pilot, mechanic, fighter could be explained by her upbringing. But I agree that she's been portrayed as a bit too powerful.

Personally, I don't consider Anakin's fall based on ego. He was never really, "I'm the Chosen one! Come at me!" Even in the Clone Wars he was pretty confident, but never really struck me as overconfident. If anything it was OTHER Jedi who were overconfident in themselves and Anakin. Come to think of it, I don't remember Anakin ever uttering the words "I'm the Chosen one." To me, his fall was more his inability to let go of the ones he cared about that drove him (And wasn't played up enough in the movie imo) He wanted the power to be able to save everyone he cared about, no matter the cost. I think it was more selfishness than ego. At least that's always been my opinion of it.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #126 on: January 01, 2016, 06:07:07 AM »
Eh, I wasn't all that impressed as I stated, he was trained and according to a book that goes into his backstory, he was in the top 1% of Stormtroopers in training. Although good point on the backpedaling issue. It would probably dumb down Rey's character. I'm going to file it under "Disney wanted a strong female character" for now and see what comes out.
Welling going purely by the movie that doesn't follow. You don't send the top 1% of storm trooper graduates (such as that is given their long illustrious history of killing walls) to sanitation. It's just not done in any universe but a bass ackwards one. So I'm going to ignore some non sequitor background fluff for the sake of making sense.

Given that elite storm troopers go on to do much more notable things. I think my assessment of the disconnect sticks.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 06:12:30 AM by Inkidu »

Offline MikeandIke

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #127 on: January 01, 2016, 04:12:46 PM »
Welling going purely by the movie that doesn't follow. You don't send the top 1% of storm trooper graduates (such as that is given their long illustrious history of killing walls) to sanitation. It's just not done in any universe but a bass ackwards one. So I'm going to ignore some non sequitor background fluff for the sake of making sense.

Given that elite storm troopers go on to do much more notable things. I think my assessment of the disconnect sticks.

Non sequitor or not, I think it's considered canon. From what I remember, he scored extremely well but was either demoted or held back from becoming an officer (By Captain Phasma) because of his willingness to help out his teammates over the mission objectives. Or something like that. (Note: I don't write this stuff lol) Which is weird because Capt. Phasma states something like he'd never shown any signs of disloyalty in the movie. And here I thought Disney wiped out the EU to make the canon timeline CLEARER!  ??? :o :-( ???

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #128 on: January 03, 2016, 05:25:09 PM »
Extremely late to the party here, which is outrageous given that I absolutely love Star Wars and count it as possibly my favourite franchise in any medium (and definitely favourite film Universe).

Couple of thoughts, but I don't know whether folks are still avoiding spoilers or not, so I'll spoiler up.

Force Awakens Spoilers


All hail based TR-8R. Infinitely superior to the traitor scum.

Okay, actual spoilers now, I warned you
So first off, I think I need to get a few complaints off my chest.

Obviously the big one is that, frankly, The Force Awakens is LITERALLY just A New Hope 2.0. In so many ways from a new R2-D2 to a new Death Star. I mean it also has a few bits and pieces from Empire Strikes back (I mean, they literally brought in a 1000-year-old tiny alien that is super wise in the ways of the Force and they don't want us to think its Yoda?). So the plot gets a bit of a smack around the head from me, frankly I expected better from J.J...

Next up. I love the new characters, but Rey seems like a bit of a Mary Sue to me. Exceptionally good at basically everything without seeming to have to try. I mean, I could handle her having been an excellent mechanic and pilot, but the fact that she went from finding out she was force-sensitive to fending off a Force-User who had been using the force for years in the space of a few scenes really irritated me. I mean, Luke Skywalker is the bloody chosen one and HE didn't learn the Force that quickly. My brother says that he interpreted it as her having actually been using it her whole life and that her skills as an engineer and pilot are just her naturally using the Force to do things, but I still think that if this is the case it could have been explained a little better. Because as it is, to me, it just seems like they created a character who learned extremely high-level Force techniques within the space of a few days.

Finn's character is also a bit frustrating. While the plot itself is mostly exceptional (because, well, it's the same as A New Hope) Finn's character at the start is a bit of a weak link. He goes from completely unwilling to kill those he has been ordered to kill (because it's not right, which is fine) to then being completely happy with killing those he has been brought up with over the past 20 or-so years. I would have liked to see a little more of a struggle from him, because as it is, it seems that he basically just doesn't care about the other Stormtroopers, when he must know that they are all in the exact same position as he is. It's a bit contradictory and a weak link in the chain.

Finally... Han's death... I can't decide whether I'm upset or not. I mean, seeing as they are copying A New Hope, they did HAVE to kill off one of the older wise men (in which case THANK FUCK they did not kill off Luke). But I still can't help but feel upset about it. Which I suppose is a pretty good thing, it's supposed to bring out that emotional response and godammit it worked. I LOVED Han (almost as much as I loved Luke) and killing him is a blow and a half. What are we going to do without him.

In spite of all this though... I genuinely think it is my favourite film of 2015. It just evoked that much emotion from me.

Here's to the new trilogy!


Edit: Realised I had said "Force Unleashed Spoilers" instead of "Force Awakens Spoilers" in that first spoiler tag... Lel. Already confused.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:08:47 AM by Assassini »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #129 on: January 03, 2016, 09:39:43 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Quote
Obviously the big one is that, frankly, The Force Awakens is LITERALLY just A New Hope 2.0. In so many ways from a new R2-D2 to a new Death Star. I mean it also has a few bits and pieces from Empire Strikes back (I mean, they literally brought in a 1000-year-old tiny alien that is super wise in the ways of the Force and they don't want us to think its Yoda?). So the plot gets a bit of a smack around the head from me, frankly I expected better from J.J...


This was what kept the movie in Good category instead of Great. It felt like they lifted entire sequences detail-for-detail from Episode 4.

Offline Sevenpercentsolution

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #130 on: January 03, 2016, 10:12:26 PM »
Oh man oh man.  I didn't know this thread was here.  I saw TFA last week and I was so fiwehgowehogiwe PUMPeD.

I was so happy to see some puppetry back on the screen, I'd have loved to see more Henson-inspired stuff at work, but that's me - I've never been huge on CGI.  Can we talk about fabrics?  Is it weird I'm so excited by the fabrics, that Rey had rough-hewn natural fibres, and Kylo's was clearly thick and woven and well-made, that Poe's was sleeker and more mod, and Finn's was clearly purely for function?  I loved it.

Also I'm in the group of people that loves the Space!Boyfriends idea, though I obviously don't expect any variety of relationships to happen in the movie (they've got shit to do!) but I basically fell in love with all the characters and want to write as all of them eventually.

Offline Drowdeviant

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #131 on: January 03, 2016, 10:21:33 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

This was what kept the movie in Good category instead of Great. It felt like they lifted entire sequences detail-for-detail from Episode 4.

Very true Glyph. I only truly liked star killer base cause it was the more badass death star. Why kill planet when you can kill five at once, and steal the sun of an entire system.

Also why does Rey get to inherit the fucking MILLENNIUM FALCON when Poe is the best pilot we've seen thus far. He flew through an insanely tight gap twice for god's sake. Imagine the sorcery he could do in the Falcon.

They need to throttle Rey's character development a bit in the next one so Poe and Fin can catch up( . Also I would like it if Kylo stopped being such a whiny brat once his training with Snoke is done. Hell they should give him a bunch more scars and make him actually look like a sith!!!! :P

Oh man oh man.  I didn't know this thread was here.  I saw TFA last week and I was so fiwehgowehogiwe PUMPeD.

I was so happy to see some puppetry back on the screen, I'd have loved to see more Henson-inspired stuff at work, but that's me - I've never been huge on CGI.  Can we talk about fabrics?  Is it weird I'm so excited by the fabrics, that Rey had rough-hewn natural fibres, and Kylo's was clearly thick and woven and well-made, that Poe's was sleeker and more mod, and Finn's was clearly purely for function?  I loved it.

Also I'm in the group of people that loves the Space!Boyfriends idea, though I obviously don't expect any variety of relationships to happen in the movie (they've got shit to do!) but I basically fell in love with all the characters and want to write as all of them eventually.

*highfive* I'm glad to see someone else who's a fan of the greatest bromance I've seen in a long time.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #132 on: January 03, 2016, 10:25:52 PM »
I wasn't impressed with Starkiller Base for that reason, actually, and I think it's part of the same mindset that led to the problems with Rey. Everything in TFA has to reference ANH some way, but be BETTER AND BIGGER. Instead of a Space Station laser that kills one planet, we get a PLANET LASER that kills FIVE PLANETS. Instead of an untrained Jedi who goes from mediocre to awesome, we'll get an untrained Jedi who goes from awesome to EVEN MORE AWESOME.

And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #133 on: January 03, 2016, 10:30:36 PM »
So..having just seen this video I feel this backstory should have been in the movie...somewhere...


Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Offline Drowdeviant

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #134 on: January 03, 2016, 10:32:29 PM »
I wasn't impressed with Starkiller Base for that reason, actually, and I think it's part of the same mindset that led to the problems with Rey. Everything in TFA has to reference ANH some way, but be BETTER AND BIGGER. Instead of a Space Station laser that kills one planet, we get a PLANET LASER that kills FIVE PLANETS. Instead of an untrained Jedi who goes from mediocre to awesome, we'll get an untrained Jedi who goes from awesome to EVEN MORE AWESOME.

And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

Ok my theory on that is that the resistance was really a taskforce the republic made for destroying the first order. They obviously significantly underestimated the First Order's arsenal and so only gave the resistance that pitiful squadron of x-wings to work with while they kept all the other ships at home. When the republic fleet got destroyed so did all the ships the resistance could have called upon for assistance in destroying the starkiller base.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #135 on: January 03, 2016, 11:22:54 PM »
In A New Hope, the attack force against the Death Star was only 30 ships....against the entire armada stored within a moon sized space station. During the time that was all the Rebel Alliance had. Then four years later in Return of the Jedi they had a freaking fleet of cruisers.

To be fair though why even bother having a "Resistance" if there is another Republic that clearly opposes the First Order? I like Drow's theory but I just feel like it should have just been the Republic vs. The First Order is all.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #136 on: January 04, 2016, 01:03:56 AM »
Honestly, I also thought that Planet Death Star (is it really called the Starkiller Base? Man that's gonna fucking confuse anyone who knows of Galen Marek from the Force Unleased games) was pretty stupid. My biggest issue with it is that while Star Wars has never been particularly Hard Sci-Fi (lel, as if) it was at least possible for the suspension of disbelief. See, I can totally buy a fuck-off massive space station that can destroy a planet. You know, I can ALSO buy a planet harvesting the power of a sun to use to power a gun which can destroy multiple planets (even if it is just a bigger Death Star). What irritated me was that the reason the Death Star itself would have been effective is that it could obviously traverse the Galaxy. In this case it is the laser which has to cross the MASSIVE light-year distances of the Galaxy. I suppose the lore will explain that the laser somehow uses "light-speed" to travel, but I actually just find that harder to buy than a Death Star flying at "light-speed".

I wasn't impressed with Starkiller Base for that reason, actually, and I think it's part of the same mindset that led to the problems with Rey. Everything in TFA has to reference ANH some way, but be BETTER AND BIGGER. Instead of a Space Station laser that kills one planet, we get a PLANET LASER that kills FIVE PLANETS. Instead of an untrained Jedi who goes from mediocre to awesome, we'll get an untrained Jedi who goes from awesome to EVEN MORE AWESOME.

And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

God, yeah, exactly. Like, the LEGIT included a scene where they said "this is the size of the Death Star and THIS is the size of the Starkiller Base". Was almost a penis measuring contest.

I honestly more thought that the low level of supply of the Resistance base (also, can I say that it irritates me that we have another "resistance" instead of the actual New Republic here... It's not a resistance against an occupying force, but a fight against an invader, they should have stuck with "New Republic", but I guess didn't want to give the Legends too much credit) was pretty much only to do with them all being taken entirely by surprise. I mean, supposedly they were supplied by the New Republic, so they ought to have access to a massive fleet, but they had no time to get it together, so had to make do with their attack squad.

Plus, you have to remember, if this is another trilogy, they can't just have the massive space battle in the first film, otherwise they'll have to escalate to stupid levels in the next two. Better a smaller start here so that the end can be truly impressive.

In A New Hope, the attack force against the Death Star was only 30 ships....against the entire armada stored within a moon sized space station. During the time that was all the Rebel Alliance had. Then four years later in Return of the Jedi they had a freaking fleet of cruisers.

To be fair though why even bother having a "Resistance" if there is another Republic that clearly opposes the First Order? I like Drow's theory but I just feel like it should have just been the Republic vs. The First Order is all.

Yea, this makes much more sense to me.

I was so happy to see some puppetry back on the screen, I'd have loved to see more Henson-inspired stuff at work, but that's me - I've never been huge on CGI.  Can we talk about fabrics?  Is it weird I'm so excited by the fabrics, that Rey had rough-hewn natural fibres, and Kylo's was clearly thick and woven and well-made, that Poe's was sleeker and more mod, and Finn's was clearly purely for function?  I loved it.

No idea what you mean about the fabrics, but I actually swear to god I said the same thing about the "puppets" when I left the cinema. Admittedly, I like CGI, so I'm not bothered by that. But the fact that they actually seemed to have used legit costumes for Chewbacka and Admiral Ackbar (at least... I HOPE that was Admiral Ackbar) and a number of others, was just awesome. It made it FEEL very Star Wars-y.

Also, while I have been so down on it in this thread, I do think I ought to repeat that I enjoyed the film so fucking much. The battle scenes were actually brilliant. Every scene with fighters in it actually felt like I was on a rollercoaster because they were shot so well and because they were so fast and intense. Plus the X-Wings fighting the TIE fighters just looked glorious. The lightsaber fight was awesome too (minus the ridiculousness of two untrained scrubs fighting off a supposedly Luke Skywalker-trained individual) simply because it was very clear that everyone was actually trying to kill each other.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the flashy speed of the lightsaber fighting in the Prequels, but if you look at the sequences closely you can see that they are just kind of spinning their blades around a lot of the time for cinematic effect. It LOOKS good but it isn't actually going to do shit against the other combatant. This time though, every single strike and thrust was done with deadly intent, and that's awesome. Now I just hope they make it look even better when you actually have two DECENT fighters...

P.s. If Kylo Ren kills Luke Skywalker at some point (heck if ANYONE comes even CLOSE to being able to touch him) I'm going to have a bloody fit...

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #137 on: January 04, 2016, 01:22:57 AM »
So..having just seen this video I feel this backstory should have been in the movie...somewhere...


Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Plus...

http://funnyjunk.com/channel/starwars/Starwars+tr+8r+strikes+back+part+4/iLxfLvY

One highlight:



I fucking love this new meme.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #138 on: January 04, 2016, 05:25:03 AM »
And was the Rebel Fleet, like, all in dry-dock or something? They're freaking out about how the war will be over if the gun fires and destroys their base and fleet...but their fleet appeared to be a grand total of like ten X-wings. You'd think in an all-the-marbles attack, they would send some capital ships if they had any.

Ok my theory on that is that the resistance was really a taskforce the republic made for destroying the first order. They obviously significantly underestimated the First Order's arsenal and so only gave the resistance that pitiful squadron of x-wings to work with while they kept all the other ships at home. When the republic fleet got destroyed so did all the ships the resistance could have called upon for assistance in destroying the starkiller base.

In A New Hope, the attack force against the Death Star was only 30 ships....against the entire armada stored within a moon sized space station. During the time that was all the Rebel Alliance had. Then four years later in Return of the Jedi they had a freaking fleet of cruisers.

To be fair though why even bother having a "Resistance" if there is another Republic that clearly opposes the First Order? I like Drow's theory but I just feel like it should have just been the Republic vs. The First Order is all.

Spoilers from the supporting material; they apparently didn't think adding a coherent backstory was worth it in the film itself
Post-Return of the Jedi/Battle of Endor there was another year of conflict between the Rebellion and what was left of the Empire, culminating in a battle above Jakku (hence the crashed Star Destroyer) which the Rebellion won, albeit at a cost. With the Empire's forces shattered they were made to sign the Galactic Concordance, a peace treaty that formalized their surrender, restricted them to a few of the Core and Inner Rim worlds, prevented them from recruiting or training Stormtroopers, close down all the Imperial Academies, got rid of their capital ships and basically stopped the Empire from being able to wage war again... think of it as the Star Wars equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles.

Humiliated, defeated and with the Republic watching their every move quite a lot of Imperials didn't like the idea of accepting the treaty or that they had been defeated but, with their military still broken, they could do nothing for the moment. But one by one ships and individuals started jumping to the Unknown Regions where the Republic could not keep an eye on them. There they formed into the First Order and over the course of the next 30 years they resupplied and remilitarized. With many of the greatest minds from the Empire within their number and knowing that they didn't have the manpower to match the reformed Republic they instead tried to gain a technological edge... hence Starkiller base.

As for what the Republic was doing over this period? Well, not much, at least with regards to the First Order. Most senators thought that they were too far away to be a threat while the Chancellor said that the New Order could do what they wanted as long as they stuck to the terms of the Galactic Concordance... and when they broke the Galactic Concordance he did nothing anyway. Not all of the Republic felt this way, with Princes Leia and some other unnamed senators being heavily opposed and thinking that the Republic shouldn't allow the First Order to grow in strength and power... but they were dismissed as paranoid warmongers who were obsessed with the Empire and couldn't accept that the galaxy was now at peace. Without official support Leia and the other senators funded "the Resistance", a private group who could oppose the First Order and try to curb their ambitions.

So at the start of Force Awakens the situation is basically pre-WW2 Europe, with the First Order as Germany and the Republic as France and the UK. While the plot makes them the good guys the Resistance's real world equivalent is basically a hybrid of the private military corporation's like Blackwater who worked in places like Iraq and the Russian Special Forces who seemingly stripped off their uniforms and went to fight in Ukraine; a way to fight a war without officially going to war.

Some pretty dramatic events happen during the Force Awakens as well but because they're not given a huge amount of emphasis or backstory most people either missed them or they lacked impact. Following the reforming of the Republic the powers that be there decided that they didn't want to keep a single, static Senate on Coruscant, but instead move it every few years via election. That planet which was destroyed which had all the well dressed people on the balcony/steps? That wasn't just some random planet... that was the planet with the Senate currently on it. The well-dressed people on the balcony/steps? They're not just random well-dressed people those are the senators and the alien guy they focus the camera on was the Chancellor. As for the Republic Fleet? Well, for reasons that are left unsaid, they've decided that they should gather the entire fleet and stay as close to the Senate as possible and thus when Starkiller base blew up that system it also completely destroyed the Republic's fleet. That's why when the main characters see the big explosion they scream out "the Republic!" as it has pretty much literally been destroyed.

So, come the end of the Force Awakens the clock has basically been rolled back to put the Star Wars galaxy into a mix of the start of Episode Four and Episode Five: like the start of Episode Four the Rebellion/Resistance is now a few dozen (at best) X-Wings, a few hundred (again at best) soldiers and their bases are rag-tag affairs on whatever planet can hide them while the Empire/First Order is the most powerful military force in the galaxy while like the start of Episode Five the Empire/First Order has lost their big super weapon but is still powerful and resupplying itself in preparation of another strike.

The fact that almost none of this was seen in the film itself is both frustrating and understandable. The understandable part is that I can appreciate why they didn't want to do a lot of "political" scenes like the prequels (although I think there's a really powerful story to tell there, albeit one that probably doesn't quite fit into one of the "big" Star Wars movies). The frustrating part is that even if they don't want to explain it in depth all it would have taken is five minutes of dialogue/exposition to give some more background; when the group are at Kanata's cantina have a screen showing the Chancellor giving a TV interview saying that the First Order is no threat and that people shouldn't concern themselves, have a 10 second shot of the Starkiller's energy blast destroying a massive fleet before it hits the planets, have Rey, Finn or Han asks Leia why the Republic didn't help and have her spend a minute or so bitterly setting out the situation etc etc.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #139 on: January 04, 2016, 08:24:06 AM »
There is a shocking lack of background to the political setting, it is true. I think ultimately it is due to the fact that the story is centered around Rey and Finn and, as characters, they do not have terribly much reason to know too much about that framework. Rey lives in BFE and Finn would only get a super biased view of the galaxy. I suspect the next movie will have more of the repercussions of TFA, now that the characters have had some time to develop.

I will say that the complaints that it is too much like ANH or ESB boggle my mind. Even aside from the fact that it is 'too much like the best Star Wars movies' being odd to begin with, I think those comparisons are superficial at best. Rey is a very different character from Luke. Neither Finn or Poe take the same design space as Han. Kylo Ren had better character development than Anakin/Vader had in the entire six movie span, probably.

Sure, it follows similar tropes, but look at the original trilogy. It was practically word-for-word Campbell's Hero's Journey. Tropes happen for a reason.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #140 on: January 04, 2016, 10:27:41 AM »
Spoilers from the supporting material; they apparently didn't think adding a coherent backstory was worth it in the film itself
Post-Return of the Jedi/Battle of Endor there was another year of conflict between the Rebellion and what was left of the Empire, culminating in a battle above Jakku (hence the crashed Star Destroyer) which the Rebellion won, albeit at a cost. With the Empire's forces shattered they were made to sign the Galactic Concordance, a peace treaty that formalized their surrender, restricted them to a few of the Core and Inner Rim worlds, prevented them from recruiting or training Stormtroopers, close down all the Imperial Academies, got rid of their capital ships and basically stopped the Empire from being able to wage war again... think of it as the Star Wars equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles.

Humiliated, defeated and with the Republic watching their every move quite a lot of Imperials didn't like the idea of accepting the treaty or that they had been defeated but, with their military still broken, they could do nothing for the moment. But one by one ships and individuals started jumping to the Unknown Regions where the Republic could not keep an eye on them. There they formed into the First Order and over the course of the next 30 years they resupplied and remilitarized. With many of the greatest minds from the Empire within their number and knowing that they didn't have the manpower to match the reformed Republic they instead tried to gain a technological edge... hence Starkiller base.

As for what the Republic was doing over this period? Well, not much, at least with regards to the First Order. Most senators thought that they were too far away to be a threat while the Chancellor said that the New Order could do what they wanted as long as they stuck to the terms of the Galactic Concordance... and when they broke the Galactic Concordance he did nothing anyway. Not all of the Republic felt this way, with Princes Leia and some other unnamed senators being heavily opposed and thinking that the Republic shouldn't allow the First Order to grow in strength and power... but they were dismissed as paranoid warmongers who were obsessed with the Empire and couldn't accept that the galaxy was now at peace. Without official support Leia and the other senators funded "the Resistance", a private group who could oppose the First Order and try to curb their ambitions.

So at the start of Force Awakens the situation is basically pre-WW2 Europe, with the First Order as Germany and the Republic as France and the UK. While the plot makes them the good guys the Resistance's real world equivalent is basically a hybrid of the private military corporation's like Blackwater who worked in places like Iraq and the Russian Special Forces who seemingly stripped off their uniforms and went to fight in Ukraine; a way to fight a war without officially going to war.

Some pretty dramatic events happen during the Force Awakens as well but because they're not given a huge amount of emphasis or backstory most people either missed them or they lacked impact. Following the reforming of the Republic the powers that be there decided that they didn't want to keep a single, static Senate on Coruscant, but instead move it every few years via election. That planet which was destroyed which had all the well dressed people on the balcony/steps? That wasn't just some random planet... that was the planet with the Senate currently on it. The well-dressed people on the balcony/steps? They're not just random well-dressed people those are the senators and the alien guy they focus the camera on was the Chancellor. As for the Republic Fleet? Well, for reasons that are left unsaid, they've decided that they should gather the entire fleet and stay as close to the Senate as possible and thus when Starkiller base blew up that system it also completely destroyed the Republic's fleet. That's why when the main characters see the big explosion they scream out "the Republic!" as it has pretty much literally been destroyed.

So, come the end of the Force Awakens the clock has basically been rolled back to put the Star Wars galaxy into a mix of the start of Episode Four and Episode Five: like the start of Episode Four the Rebellion/Resistance is now a few dozen (at best) X-Wings, a few hundred (again at best) soldiers and their bases are rag-tag affairs on whatever planet can hide them while the Empire/First Order is the most powerful military force in the galaxy while like the start of Episode Five the Empire/First Order has lost their big super weapon but is still powerful and resupplying itself in preparation of another strike.

The fact that almost none of this was seen in the film itself is both frustrating and understandable. The understandable part is that I can appreciate why they didn't want to do a lot of "political" scenes like the prequels (although I think there's a really powerful story to tell there, albeit one that probably doesn't quite fit into one of the "big" Star Wars movies). The frustrating part is that even if they don't want to explain it in depth all it would have taken is five minutes of dialogue/exposition to give some more background; when the group are at Kanata's cantina have a screen showing the Chancellor giving a TV interview saying that the First Order is no threat and that people shouldn't concern themselves, have a 10 second shot of the Starkiller's energy blast destroying a massive fleet before it hits the planets, have Rey, Finn or Han asks Leia why the Republic didn't help and have her spend a minute or so bitterly setting out the situation etc etc.

You know what, another thing I thought was that during the moment fairly late in the film where the commander guy (who I assume was the new Grand Moff of the First Order) and he is giving this speech to the assembled First Order troops, they were being a tiny bit heavy handed with the Nazi symbolism. I mean, he's giving this huge speech from a podium, its impassioned and angry, he's surrounded by these red flags with a black symbol on them, all the storm-troopers even do this arm-raise salute at the end of the speech. It just felt a tad like they were beating you around the head saying "these guys are the BAD GUYS!"

There is a shocking lack of background to the political setting, it is true. I think ultimately it is due to the fact that the story is centered around Rey and Finn and, as characters, they do not have terribly much reason to know too much about that framework. Rey lives in BFE and Finn would only get a super biased view of the galaxy. I suspect the next movie will have more of the repercussions of TFA, now that the characters have had some time to develop.

I will say that the complaints that it is too much like ANH or ESB boggle my mind. Even aside from the fact that it is 'too much like the best Star Wars movies' being odd to begin with, I think those comparisons are superficial at best. Rey is a very different character from Luke. Neither Finn or Poe take the same design space as Han. Kylo Ren had better character development than Anakin/Vader had in the entire six movie span, probably.

Sure, it follows similar tropes, but look at the original trilogy. It was practically word-for-word Campbell's Hero's Journey. Tropes happen for a reason.

Really? I mean, the whole plot of the film is "get the secret data to the Resistance [Rebellion] so that they can destroy the First Order's [Empire's] new super weapon, but because of circumstances it will have to all be down to a rag-tag group of fighters attacking a space station the size of a planet [moon]. But it's necessary because said station has the power to destroy five planets [one planet] and is recharging to fire again, presumably [definitely] at the resistance [Rebel] base".

Now it's very true that the characters are very different, and that's great (I mean, I also disagree about Vader but whatever) but one cannot deny, the plot of the film more than just superficially similar to the originals.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #141 on: January 04, 2016, 10:40:04 AM »
Quote
Really? I mean, the whole plot of the film is "get the secret data to the Resistance [Rebellion] so that they can destroy the First Order's [Empire's] new super weapon, but because of circumstances it will have to all be down to a rag-tag group of fighters attacking a space station the size of a planet [moon]. But it's necessary because said station has the power to destroy five planets [one planet] and is recharging to fire again, presumably [definitely] at the resistance [Rebel] base".

Now it's very true that the characters are very different, and that's great (I mean, I also disagree about Vader but whatever) but one cannot deny, the plot of the film more than just superficially similar to the originals.

Except the secret data is a McGuffin that is unrelated to the superweapon. And while the trench run is arguably a bit much, the set piece of a heroic starfighter sequence is standard to the series, given it is in every single movie in the series. I cannot fault them for that one. But the key thing is that the Hero's Journey is different in this particular sequence.

It is a story about how Rey moves past her clinging to a past she doesn't know in order to move toward the future. It is a story about how Finn moves from fear of the First Order to being a hero. It is a story about how a father tries to save his son. The set pieces may have familiarity, but within the setting they make perfect sense. Of course the First Order, idolizing the Empire and trying to exceed it, would attempt to recreate their most potent weapon. Of course the Republic would falter and lead to a ragtag group fighting against the might of the First Order. The story is different and that is what is ultimately key.

I think there are a lot of similarities, but none that stand out as "this is literally just there for nostalgia." By contrast, the prequels had a lot of the latter. We just have a lot more to complain about for those.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #142 on: January 04, 2016, 10:58:42 AM »
Except the secret data is a McGuffin that is unrelated to the superweapon. And while the trench run is arguably a bit much, the set piece of a heroic starfighter sequence is standard to the series, given it is in every single movie in the series. I cannot fault them for that one. But the key thing is that the Hero's Journey is different in this particular sequence.

It is a story about how Rey moves past her clinging to a past she doesn't know in order to move toward the future. It is a story about how Finn moves from fear of the First Order to being a hero. It is a story about how a father tries to save his son. The set pieces may have familiarity, but within the setting they make perfect sense. Of course the First Order, idolizing the Empire and trying to exceed it, would attempt to recreate their most potent weapon. Of course the Republic would falter and lead to a ragtag group fighting against the might of the First Order. The story is different and that is what is ultimately key.

I think there are a lot of similarities, but none that stand out as "this is literally just there for nostalgia." By contrast, the prequels had a lot of the latter. We just have a lot more to complain about for those.

You make a fair point, but those character bits are sort of individual scenes as opposed to the overarching story of the movie. They happen within the broader scope of trying to stop the Death Star 3.0. However, I'm not saying that's there for nostalgia, I actually didn't feel like they were trying to hint towards A New Hope really. It just felt  little more like they had struggled to come up with anything new. I mean... Something ALWAYS has to be threatening to blow up a planet in one of J.J.'s films. However, as I've previously said, I am kind of hoping that this slightly lacklustre story is in order to build up to a more awesome trilogy.

Because it would be truly AWESOME if we could see Luke being all badass and teaching Rey. It would be even better if they could somehow involve the Yuuzhan Vong (or some other kind of invading force) because it would actually be super cool to see the "oh we're so evil all the time" First Order have to settle their differences with the Resistance in order to unite. Because that would be a different kind of film! If it stays the way its going, we're just going to have the original trilogy all over again with the First Order as the primary villain the whole time.

I think basically I'm saying I still am sore about the loss of the EU.

Also, speaking of nostalgia. The few things in there which did make me feel nostalgic were all brilliant touches in my opinion. Like the whole "accidentally switching on the space chess set" was fucking great. Even if it was basically a moment of taking nostalgia and rubbing it right in my face, it worked! Plus, while I think someone else said that the reveal of Luke was a cop-out, I think that was actually one of the most powerful moments of the film... Although that may be because Luke Skywalker has always been one of my absolute favourite fictional heroes (and Mark Hamill is back on screen! Fucking yaaaaaas!)

P.s. I actually think it's quite "cool" to hate on the Prequels. Going back to them I feel that a lot of what was in them is pretty awesome. Also, I have to admit, I'm not sure exactly what elements of the Prequels felt like they were trying to be nostalgic. I'm sure you're right that they did, but no particular scenes come to mind at the moment.

Online Lustful Bride

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #143 on: January 04, 2016, 11:02:30 AM »
Because it would be truly AWESOME if we could see Luke being all badass and teaching Rey. It would be even better if they could somehow involve the Yuuzhan Vong (or some other kind of invading force) because it would actually be super cool to see the "oh we're so evil all the time" First Order have to settle their differences with the Resistance in order to unite. Because that would be a different kind of film! If it stays the way its going, we're just going to have the original trilogy all over again with the First Order as the primary villain the whole time.

*Sigh* that's actually what I was told the new Trilogy would be about. I heard it would be a condencesed version of the Yuuzhan invasion and wed see Rebels and Imps fighting together against the endless wave of the Vong.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #144 on: January 04, 2016, 11:14:24 AM »
*Sigh* that's actually what I was told the new Trilogy would be about. I heard it would be a condencesed version of the Yuuzhan invasion and wed see Rebels and Imps fighting together against the endless wave of the Vong.

There's still hope! Never give up! Never surrender! (Oh wait, wrong sci-fi film...)

Back in the day, it seemed to be widely hoped that episodes 7-9 would be based around the Thrawn Trilogy. As I understand that bares some resemblance to what we can see now, in that it involves some Imperial Remnant fighting against the New Republic.

I think a lot of it was focused around Luke and the New Jedi Order though. Plus Mara Jade and shit like that.

And while I would love to see a whole trilogy focused on Luke Skywalker, I do get that they can't do that from a Hollywood point of view. Not only would that not really attract a new legion of younger fans if it was focused on an older character (and it means they'd not be able to sell as many toys). But it would probably also be logistically tricky filming the ageing Mark Hamill doing all the super awesome things that Luke is capable of... Doesn't mean I'm going to give up hope though!

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #145 on: January 04, 2016, 11:41:12 AM »
I'll admit. I don't really HATE the story the prequels are trying to sell me on. Except Phantom Menace.

But I dislike the poor dialogue because they let Lucas write the script without better revision processes. I dislike how the abuse of green screen makes scenes feel exceptionally flat and non-dynamic. I dislike how spectacle seems to be the care more than cinematography. Things like that add up for me. I still think Revenge of the Sith is arguably on par with Return of the Jedi though as a whole.

...I'm curious about how things will turn out in the new trilogy though. I'll admit. My personal pet theory is that the First Order is building up because they see a complacent Republic and realize there is some greater threat from the Unknown Regions. I might be driven to this theory based on the fact that the official visual guides specifically label Rakata Prime, despite throwing away KotOR from the canon.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #146 on: January 04, 2016, 01:09:59 PM »
I think ultimately it is due to the fact that the story is centered around Rey and Finn and, as characters, they do not have terribly much reason to know too much about that framework. Rey lives in BFE and Finn would only get a super biased view of the galaxy.

I appreciate that a more politically focused film, while quite possibly being an excellent story, doesn't really fit in a "main" Star Wars movie; people want lightsabers and X-wings and TIE fighters and the Force in a Star Wars movie, not political dramas. And that's setting aside the fact that too much set in and around the Senate would remind people too much of the little loved prequels.

But as I said, it would only take a few minutes of exposition to make it all at least make sense and not leave me in the position I was coming out of the film without having read any of the supporting material and going "well, what the hell were the Republic doing throughout that?". In fact, here's my back of a matchbox attempt to do that exposition and fit it into the film:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Scene: While at Kanata's castle/cantina. As the main characters walk by the camera focuses on a view screen where a news reporter can be seen. The sound of the broadcast becomes louder and replaces the background chatter.

Reporter: We cut now to the interview with Chancellor Lanever Villecham speaking from Hosnian Prime, the current seat of the Galactic Senate.

[Cut to the Chancellor]

Unseen Interviewer: Chancellor, people are concerned with reports that the First Order has been conducting raids outside the Unknown Regions. Can you comment.

Villecham: I can assure the public there is no threat from the First Order. They, like us, remember how much the last war cost us all... in money, materials and lives. This remnant of the Empire simply wish to be left alone to live their own lives, as do we, and despite what the more war mongering of my colleagues may want, we will not provoke them. If they were to breach the terms of the peace treaty we signed 30 years ago we would respond but there has been no credible evidence that they have or intend to.

[Cut back to the bar, continue on with main characters]



Scene: As the Starkiller base fires it's weapon have a shot of a large number of capital ships in space within the Hosnian system. Almost all of them are caught in the weapon's blast and destroyed.



Scene: The main characters are back at the Resistance base. One of Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe talks to Leia

Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe: What were the Republic doing while the First Order were growing strong?

Leia [bitterly]: Nothing. I warned them. I warned them the First Order didn't want peace. They said I was paranoid. They said that I was in love with war. They said I hated the Empire more than I loved peace. They said I could never forget or forgive the destruction of Alderaan. They said that I saw the Empire in every shadow and Grand Moff Tarkin in every First Order face. So they dismissed by comments and they laughed at me. All I could do was fund this Resistance and hope that they were right. But they were wrong. And now the Chancellor, the Senate itself, the Republic Fleet and twenty billion innocents have paid the ultimate price for them being wrong.


Now, I'm not going to claim that's any good; I'm not a script writer and I took about five minutes to write it down. But surely something like that wouldn't have taken too long, wouldn't have detracted from the rest of the film and would have given us enough exposition/background that we knew what had happened and why.

...I'm curious about how things will turn out in the new trilogy though. I'll admit. My personal pet theory is that the First Order is building up because they see a complacent Republic and realize there is some greater threat from the Unknown Regions. I might be driven to this theory based on the fact that the official visual guides specifically label Rakata Prime, despite throwing away KotOR from the canon.

Honestly, I think that's too risky and this trilogy will largely be about minimizing risk and coming as close as possible to guaranteeing return. In this case that means largely aping the overall plot of the original trilogy. So in the next film we'll get more of Rey's backstory and her training with Luke (and quite possibly doing a parallel with Ren's backstory, him training with Snoke and a bit more on the Knights of Ren) combined with Poe and Finn doing more conventional action/adventure stuff, much like how Empire Strikes Back had Luke doing training while Han and Leia went off on adventures/the run.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #147 on: January 04, 2016, 01:15:21 PM »
I think the main issue there is you'll note the camera never leaves the main characters for the most part. I think there are maybe two or three shots that are focused on unknown characters at most, but usually tied to some key plot device. It might be doable, but I think it would be a little poor for pacing. I think the distinction between the Resistance and Republic is not well established though in the movie itself. I just don't think it is terribly NECESSARY. It is world-building over the story, but nothing about the background really needed more establishing except in the larger context of what we knew from before.

If you take Episode VII on its own, I feel it is marvelously compact, is what I mean by that.

I also think they won't retread as much in the next film. The only thing we've heard about it is that it is the "weirdest" Star Wars script yet. And that JJ wishes he were directing it. I suspect that there was some feel that they had to play it a bit safe for TFA after the prequels and with new stewardship. I think now we'll see some drastically new things.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
As an aside, I think that one thing that is distinctly different is a note on Rey's behavior during the lightsaber fight. She definitely called on the Force. I don't think anybody argues that. But look at how her fighting style changes - it matches note for note with Luke in Return of the Jedi where he calls on the dark side. My personal other pet theory is that we'll see Rey fall to the dark side as Kylo Ren gets his redemption arc.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:18:38 PM by AnneReinard »

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #148 on: January 04, 2016, 03:15:23 PM »
I appreciate that a more politically focused film, while quite possibly being an excellent story, doesn't really fit in a "main" Star Wars movie; people want lightsabers and X-wings and TIE fighters and the Force in a Star Wars movie, not political dramas. And that's setting aside the fact that too much set in and around the Senate would remind people too much of the little loved prequels.

But as I said, it would only take a few minutes of exposition to make it all at least make sense and not leave me in the position I was coming out of the film without having read any of the supporting material and going "well, what the hell were the Republic doing throughout that?". In fact, here's my back of a matchbox attempt to do that exposition and fit it into the film:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Scene: While at Kanata's castle/cantina. As the main characters walk by the camera focuses on a view screen where a news reporter can be seen. The sound of the broadcast becomes louder and replaces the background chatter.

Reporter: We cut now to the interview with Chancellor Lanever Villecham speaking from Hosnian Prime, the current seat of the Galactic Senate.

[Cut to the Chancellor]

Unseen Interviewer: Chancellor, people are concerned with reports that the First Order has been conducting raids outside the Unknown Regions. Can you comment.

Villecham: I can assure the public there is no threat from the First Order. They, like us, remember how much the last war cost us all... in money, materials and lives. This remnant of the Empire simply wish to be left alone to live their own lives, as do we, and despite what the more war mongering of my colleagues may want, we will not provoke them. If they were to breach the terms of the peace treaty we signed 30 years ago we would respond but there has been no credible evidence that they have or intend to.

[Cut back to the bar, continue on with main characters]



Scene: As the Starkiller base fires it's weapon have a shot of a large number of capital ships in space within the Hosnian system. Almost all of them are caught in the weapon's blast and destroyed.



Scene: The main characters are back at the Resistance base. One of Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe talks to Leia

Finn/Rey/Maybe even Poe: What were the Republic doing while the First Order were growing strong?

Leia [bitterly]: Nothing. I warned them. I warned them the First Order didn't want peace. They said I was paranoid. They said that I was in love with war. They said I hated the Empire more than I loved peace. They said I could never forget or forgive the destruction of Alderaan. They said that I saw the Empire in every shadow and Grand Moff Tarkin in every First Order face. So they dismissed by comments and they laughed at me. All I could do was fund this Resistance and hope that they were right. But they were wrong. And now the Chancellor, the Senate itself, the Republic Fleet and twenty billion innocents have paid the ultimate price for them being wrong.


Now, I'm not going to claim that's any good; I'm not a script writer and I took about five minutes to write it down. But surely something like that wouldn't have taken too long, wouldn't have detracted from the rest of the film and would have given us enough exposition/background that we knew what had happened and why.

Honestly, I think that's too risky and this trilogy will largely be about minimizing risk and coming as close as possible to guaranteeing return. In this case that means largely aping the overall plot of the original trilogy. So in the next film we'll get more of Rey's backstory and her training with Luke (and quite possibly doing a parallel with Ren's backstory, him training with Snoke and a bit more on the Knights of Ren) combined with Poe and Finn doing more conventional action/adventure stuff, much like how Empire Strikes Back had Luke doing training while Han and Leia went off on adventures/the run.

I agree actually, I think a few scenes like that would have been excellent material for building up the backstory. But I guess it's too late for it now, so I guess we have to deal with it. It's just a shame overall really.

I'll admit that what I think will happen and what I want to happen are two rather different things. My view entirely follows the plot of the EU, in that I'd love to see a massive political and moral thing where the First Order and New Republic have to team up to take on an external threat. Potentially have the Sith and Jedi fighting alongside each other (or have the Sith switch sides or something). But I agree that my FIRST impression was that Episode VIII will just be the Empire Strikes Back 2.0. I.e. Finn will be in dire straits most of the time while Rey trains with Luke (and because its her she'll obviously become better than Luke and I'll just have to sit in the back-row seething...).

I think the main issue there is you'll note the camera never leaves the main characters for the most part. I think there are maybe two or three shots that are focused on unknown characters at most, but usually tied to some key plot device. It might be doable, but I think it would be a little poor for pacing. I think the distinction between the Resistance and Republic is not well established though in the movie itself. I just don't think it is terribly NECESSARY. It is world-building over the story, but nothing about the background really needed more establishing except in the larger context of what we knew from before.

If you take Episode VII on its own, I feel it is marvelously compact, is what I mean by that.

I also think they won't retread as much in the next film. The only thing we've heard about it is that it is the "weirdest" Star Wars script yet. And that JJ wishes he were directing it. I suspect that there was some feel that they had to play it a bit safe for TFA after the prequels and with new stewardship. I think now we'll see some drastically new things.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
As an aside, I think that one thing that is distinctly different is a note on Rey's behavior during the lightsaber fight. She definitely called on the Force. I don't think anybody argues that. But look at how her fighting style changes - it matches note for note with Luke in Return of the Jedi where he calls on the dark side. My personal other pet theory is that we'll see Rey fall to the dark side as Kylo Ren gets his redemption arc.


Now THIS is something I too noticed. You are entirely right. If anyone knows anything from even just the previous films then one knows that the Sith draw their strength from their emotions and Rey was obviously all raging on Ben during their duel. There was a shot where the camera zoomed in on her face and I couldn't tell if she were just becoming serene and peaceful or whether she was actually just getting exceptionally pissed off with the guy she watched murder Han Solo.

From a Hollywood perspective though, it would be bold as brass to have a main character turn evil. I mean, how would they sell action figures? But I would fucking love to see a story-line with Rey falling to the Dark Side and then Luke saves her. Or hell, maybe even Ben saves her (I'm not calling him Kylo). While not what I'm hoping for, that WOULD be extremely legit.

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #149 on: January 04, 2016, 03:33:51 PM »
If the new films never ever touch the vong, I would be so happy, personally. I don't quite see how anyone can really like the Vong in star wars.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #150 on: January 04, 2016, 06:43:58 PM »
From a Hollywood perspective though, it would be bold as brass to have a main character turn evil. I mean, how would they sell action figures?

The trite response to this would be to look at complaints that they weren't selling Rey action figures to begin with and say it wouldn't be a concern.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #151 on: January 04, 2016, 09:04:57 PM »
Yeah, I'm admittedly not a huge fan of the Vong. I felt they were somewhat out of place feeling. Star Wars EU got... weird after the Imperial Remnant wasn't the major threat. Well. Weirder.

I think a large external threat might be looming though. It is really odd for Rakata Prime to be marked otherwise.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2016, 09:06:16 PM »
If the new films never ever touch the vong, I would be so happy, personally. I don't quite see how anyone can really like the Vong in star wars.

I enjoyed them.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2016, 09:08:24 PM »
Honestly Episode VII being basically New Hope 2.0 it kind of makes Kreia right and the Force is really an ultimately purgatorial (if not outright malicious force) that needs to be expunged from the galaxy. :P

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2016, 09:09:03 PM »
Rakata Prime will be where the First Order digs up an ancient alien superweapon.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #155 on: January 05, 2016, 02:10:40 AM »
If the new films never ever touch the vong, I would be so happy, personally. I don't quite see how anyone can really like the Vong in star wars.

Yeah, I never got the popularity of this part of the EU. I was more interested in Thrawn, and the X-Wing series' encounters with the remnants of the Empire, like Isanne Isard.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #156 on: January 05, 2016, 06:25:53 AM »
Yeah, I never got the popularity of this part of the EU. I was more interested in Thrawn, and the X-Wing series' encounters with the remnants of the Empire, like Isanne Isard.
You mean a group that were brought in that actually challenged force users to think outside of the box? The kind of baddies that didn't rely on someone with a red lightsaber and consisted mainly of hordes of extras for the jedi to zoom through until they got to said baddie with the red lighsaber? Yeah, I can see how some people might see that as annoying. Personally, I found the Vong to be rather inspiring and since they're gonna...
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Destroy Coruscant anyways
, it might as well be with something other than
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
yet another Empire super-weapon.
Plus, it would give Palpatine an actual reason for building this legion of superweapons in the first place other than," For the good of Evil everywhere! Muahahahahaha!" Considering that the book introducing Thrawn is when Palpatine forsees the coming of the Vong.

Thrawn was awesome, though.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 06:30:47 AM by Deamonbane »

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #157 on: January 05, 2016, 06:32:54 AM »
I swear to God though, if there's ice anywhere but a drink in VIII I'm done. Also, if there's a swamp.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #158 on: January 05, 2016, 07:10:10 AM »
I liked the idea of the Vong more than I liked the execution. Or, to be more accurate, I liked the idea of an external force that made the Jedi and what was left of the Empire work together and that fell outside the "light side good, dark side bad" dichotomy (although that was undermined at the end). I just didn't particularly like the Vong themselves or the way those stories were told.

You mean a group that were brought in that actually challenged force users to think outside of the box? The kind of baddies that didn't rely on someone with a red lightsaber and consisted mainly of hordes of extras for the jedi to zoom through until they got to said baddie with the red lighsaber?

I'm not sure that point quite holds true with regards to the Vong; the ending of their invasion comes when some Jedi cut through a bunch of extras and then one has a lightsabre duel with the supposed big bad (which he wins) and another has a Force-battle with the mysterious power behind the throne (who's basically a dark-side user) and beats him with the power of the light-side. There may have been some interesting differences before hand (although despite being better developed than most other bad guys in EU Star Wars I always found the Vong themselves less interesting than the reaction to the Vong) but the ending to that saga was classic/generic Star Wars; the Force and Lightsabre duels.



As for the Vong (or a Vong type) in the new movies, I just can't see it. Partially that's the risk point I keep making but it's also a narrative and practical story telling one; we have what, about four hours of move time left in this new trilogy? That's not enough time to really establish a new invading race that radically break many of the rules of the existing Star Wars universe and have their own distinct (and important) society, beliefs and culture, especially when they've not been foreshadowed or pre-empted in any way. I'd put good money that the rest of the films are going to be focused almost entirely on the Resistance vs the New Order with a big side helping of Rey and Ren getting character development due to their training under Luke and Snoke, with Snoke himself possibly getting some more development/backstory (perhaps tying him in to Star Wars Rebels in the way Clone Wars gave us a lot more on General Grievous).

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2016, 07:12:38 AM »
I think the problem with the Vong for me was that it really represented the power creep that was happening at the time.

The original trilogy had the Jedi doing mostly believable things. Luke uses the Force to augment his physical capabilities, they lift some objects, there is Force Lightning as the pinnacle of the dark side.

Then the Vong storyline has Luke controlling black holes to destroy Vong fleets.

Online BeorningTopic starter

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2016, 04:11:56 PM »
Okay, just got home after watching TFA!  :-)

Overall, I must admit that I liked it a lot. It was, IMHO, a much a more solid movie than the prequels (which I really dislike - not because it's cool to do so, but because I genuinely find them to be weak movies that damaged the franchise). I agree that there was a lot of stuff lifted from TNH, most probably for nostalgia reasons... still, I can accept that. I do hope that Episode 8 treads some new ground, but for now, I'm not very annoyed with TFA. In this case, I prefer this approach to some kind of sweeping re-imagining - Abrams did that with Star Trek and the results are disastrous (IMHO).

In other words: TFA is a bit of a reheated meal, but it certainly is a *tasty* reheated meal!  ;D

Notes on specific story elements:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
1. Rey - I like her! Although she is uber-competent, I agree. BTW. I'm happy to see that I wasn't the only one wondering about her rage-fighting during her duel with Ren. It felt Darksidish to me, too. So, maybe this bit *was* intentional!

2. Finn is a cool, fresh idea. He's exactly the kind of character I'd play in a Star Wars RPG  ;D Although I wish we got to see more of his change of heart - it felt a bit abrupt. And it was weird to see him gun his fellow Stormtroopers down without any kind of internal conflict...

3. Poe - well, I can only say that I hope to see more of him!

4. BB-8 - I don't care that he's R2D2 2.0, he's very cute and I like the little guy!  :-)

5. Kylo Ren - okay, am I the only one who finds him a bit pathetic? I've seen his internal conflict and pain being praised here on the thread, but I don't really find this aspect of the story to be strongly realized. Maybe if we got more insight into Ben's backstory..?

6. Overall, I would prefer if there was more backstory in the movie in general. Who formed the First Order, exactly? What is the exact relationship between the Republic and the Resistance? And who is this Snoke guy????? Episode 8 really needs to delve into these matters.

7. One thing I liked about the movie: women! Finally, they are everywhere. There are female Resistance personnel, female X-Wing pilots, female First Order military personnel, female Stormtroopers (Phasma's not the only one!)... One of the annoying things about the original trilogy is that there are almost no women in Rebellion aside from Leia and no women in the Empire at all. I'm glad they changed that!

8. Light-claymore still is a bit much for me. Every time Ren spun it around, I thought he was going to cut his hand off...

9. Han Solo's death was a bit too predictable. For meta-story reasons, but still...

10. The movie did some nice misdirection in its promotion. For a time, I was genuinely sure that Kylo Ren was guing to turn out to be Luke... And I was also sure that Finn was going to be the Force-sensitive one.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2016, 04:31:46 PM »
I think the problem with the Vong for me was that it really represented the power creep that was happening at the time.

The original trilogy had the Jedi doing mostly believable things. Luke uses the Force to augment his physical capabilities, they lift some objects, there is Force Lightning as the pinnacle of the dark side.

Then the Vong storyline has Luke controlling black holes to destroy Vong fleets.
I don't recall Force Lightning ever having been anything close to the pinnacle of the dark side. A cool side effect maybe, and something that even Jedi are known to use. Pinnacle? I don't know. There's the battle meditation, related to in the old republic games and novels, And again, not limited to the dark side, but certainly 'cheating' as it were. The Jedi after thousands of years of being institutionalized lost so much of their own power. Necessary, I guess in a universe where they are the primary force users but still, it explains why they were so easily handled by Palpatine.

I digress.

Anyways, I agree with consortium in the fact that their reaction to the Vong and the idea behind them was so much better than the storyline. I was hoping, when stories began of new Star Wars movies, that they would build up to it, and with J.J. Abrams at the helm, it would have the potential to live up to it's potential, if that makes any sense. Of course the discarded characters like Mara Jade and Boba Fett as Mandalore (Not a discarded character, but a storyline, I guess)... There was a lot of potential in the Vong, ignored by both the books and discarded by the movies.

As for now, I'm anxious to see what Snoke is.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #162 on: January 05, 2016, 05:26:42 PM »
She did specifically say in the original trilogy, and it is. Force Lighting was the secret technique busted out by the Emperor, the ultimate Big Bad of the trilogy, and it completely incapacitated Luke when we saw it used. Battle Meditation was 'technically' in the movies, but never really shown or displayed in any way, it was more of a retroactive addition to explain why the death of the Emperor meant the Imperial fleet was defeated.

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2016, 05:29:01 PM »
By canon, Boba Fett is still a Mandalorian - the clone wars series (don't give me the gruff, that series was pretty damn rock solid all around with some standout arcs/episodes!) has him dealing with mandalorians. though obviousl - he's not Mandalore in them.

Plus I believe there has been some rumors (as always) of a Boba Fett film coming out, so we'd have to see.

And yeah, Anne and Glyph are right. By the OT and even the PT - only the most powerful of the Sith (the Emperor) was the only one to use lightning. And whenever it was used, it was devastating.  By all canon accounts, force lightning is one of, if not the most dangerous technique seen that's used offensively.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2016, 07:13:05 PM »
One thing I want to say in defense of Kylo Ren, because I feel it gets missed a lot on your first viewing.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
A lot of people have complaints about how Kylo Ren gets defeated by Finn and Rey 'so easily', claiming it makes him an underwhelming villain. However, I feel the following should be noted with regards to that.

  • They spent repeated scenes building up the bowcaster as an amazingly destructive weapon. Stormtroopers are sent FLYING by the shots. Kylo Ren takes a shot right to the gut, bends over, and then keeps going. He's got amazing endurance.
  • It is pretty clear he is toying with Finn in their fight. The moment Finn lands a grazing blow against him, he takes Finn out of the picture.
  • He is under orders to take Rey to Snoke, so he can't outright kill her.
  • He is not in his right mental state in that fight either. He just lost Anakin's lightsaber because he was unable to call it to his hand. Furthermore, he just killed his father, expecting to be more powerful in the process. He is definitely shaken from that though.
  • And of course he is clearly not a fully trained Force-user at this point. He has his strong points (grabbing blaster bolts, effectively a souped up Jedi mind trick, etc), but he probably has a lot of things he has missed learning.

A bit opinion, but I also feel that Rey was dramatically drawing on the dark side in that last part of the fight as well. For Kylo Ren, who we see is having trouble channeling the dark side and is avoiding the light side, he would have been at a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 07:56:22 PM by AnneReinard »

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #165 on: January 05, 2016, 07:48:45 PM »
The only major reasons I think Kylo is a weenie is that one, he gives the most eye rolling line in the movie (I feel the light side of the force calling to me!), and two, he clearly inherited the skywalker whining gene. Surprised he didn't discuss hating sand during his time on Jakku.

Other than that, he's a fairly solid character all around.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #166 on: January 05, 2016, 08:04:16 PM »
And his whiny emo-ness, somewhat weirdly, makes him the best portrayal of the supposed Sith ideal we've seen on screen. In previous movies, the bad guys are always shown as cold manipulators and ruthless murderers, cruel but weirdly dispassionate. Comparatively, Jedi very rarely seem to live up to the emotionless, tranquil zen-warrior image they are claimed to be. (One of the few genuinely good bits of TPM was the tiny segment of the Qui-Gon/Maul fight that actually did get this right; separated by a force field, Maul paces back and forth impatiently while Qui-Gon meditates).

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #167 on: January 05, 2016, 08:11:02 PM »
And his whiny emo-ness, somewhat weirdly, makes him the best portrayal of the supposed Sith ideal we've seen on screen. In previous movies, the bad guys are always shown as cold manipulators and ruthless murderers, cruel but weirdly dispassionate. Comparatively, Jedi very rarely seem to live up to the emotionless, tranquil zen-warrior image they are claimed to be. (One of the few genuinely good bits of TPM was the tiny segment of the Qui-Gon/Maul fight that actually did get this right; separated by a force field, Maul paces back and forth impatiently while Qui-Gon meditates).

I think in some sense, Kylo is a very good example of what a Sith really would be.

They claim to be emotion and passion and how it gives them strength, how they master it... But no, they really don't. It does twist them and corrupt them and turn them into something 'lesser', in a sense. He can't control his emotions, (Well, he can wreck computers and hardware instead of slicing up a subordinate), but overall he's more like a rabid animal than anything.He has the subtlety of a wrecking ball and does not know nuance, he instead just takes what he wants, is fueled by emotions of anger and rage in between this bouts of what look like depression almost - and every scene with him really does look like he's just about to start murdering people. If Darth Vader is some sort of figure who inspires awe and dread just because stories of his cruelty have spread, and by acting utterly cold during said cruelty, Kylo is basically a berserker and a wild card by all accounts.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #168 on: January 05, 2016, 08:28:28 PM »
I actually like these varied portrayals of what are philosophies about how powerful people treat a mystical force.

Never forget that there were militant sects of Buddhism that used guns.


Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #169 on: January 05, 2016, 08:59:28 PM »
I actually like these varied portrayals of what are philosophies about how powerful people treat a mystical force.

Never forget that there were militant sects of Buddhism that used guns.

So do I, don't get me wrong.

But for every darth vader or Sheev, there are a thousand Kylo Rens, people who want to think they can master the dark side but clearly can't.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #170 on: January 05, 2016, 09:11:28 PM »
I actually really liked the twist of 'I can feel the light side calling me.' We always see the dark side portrayed as this corrupting, vile force. But the only canon source of really strong force lore (the episode about the Ones in Clone Wars) suggests that the Dark Side and Light Side need to be in BALANCE with each other. And not in the sense that the dark side is an inherently unbalancing use of the Force.

I REALLY hope that they pull more along this route in Episode VIII to have strong characters. That and I want Jedistormpilot.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #171 on: January 05, 2016, 09:19:47 PM »
Well, considering Ren's philosophy is based on a lie that's not surprising.


Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #172 on: January 05, 2016, 09:22:35 PM »
I think the novelization, admittedly based on an earlier script, does have a scene where they are aware of Darth Vader's betrayal of the Emperor on the Death Star. They see it a weakness that brought along the downfall of the Empire.

...I still think he'll learn better.

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #173 on: January 05, 2016, 09:33:30 PM »
I personally wouldn't trust the novelization.

I'm still holding out for a reversal of the 'I am your father' scene

'What did Snoke tell you about your grandfather?'

'He told me enough! he told me he was a great sith!'

'No, I am your grandfather. Kylo, you can destroy the first order. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can save the galaxy as grandfather and grandson! Come with me. It is the only way.'

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #174 on: January 06, 2016, 12:25:01 PM »
The trite response to this would be to look at complaints that they weren't selling Rey action figures to begin with and say it wouldn't be a concern.

Well, I mean initially I had been joking but also: what? A quick Google search and I found loads of Rey action figurines for sale... One for a, frankly, ridiculous amount of money...

Regarding the current discussion of the Vong:

Now a lot of people seem a good deal more clued up on the EU than I am. I am only aware of the Vong to the extent that they invaded, that was why Palpatine made the Empire and the Death Star (he predicted it), and eventually the Good Guys stopped them. Plus that whole thing led to everything going wrong with Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. However, while I am aware of the broad strokes (due to rather too much time spent on Wookiepedia), I don't really know all the intricate details and I have never actually read any of the books. So it seems that a few folk in the thread kind of disliked them in the stories (although some liked the premise behind them, if we look at consortim), or at least how the whole arc ended. As I am unable to really comment on the intricacies I can only say that I also just like the whole premise of them, or at least of some kind of external invasion which causes the factions of the Galaxy to team up despite their differences.

At least that would be preferable to a whole new trilogy of Resistance versus New Order, because that would just be faaaar too samey for my liking. So yeah, I'm holding out for an external invasion or more focus on the Force side of things (here's hoping Rey turns to the Dark Side).

I think in some sense, Kylo is a very good example of what a Sith really would be.

They claim to be emotion and passion and how it gives them strength, how they master it... But no, they really don't. It does twist them and corrupt them and turn them into something 'lesser', in a sense. He can't control his emotions, (Well, he can wreck computers and hardware instead of slicing up a subordinate), but overall he's more like a rabid animal than anything.He has the subtlety of a wrecking ball and does not know nuance, he instead just takes what he wants, is fueled by emotions of anger and rage in between this bouts of what look like depression almost - and every scene with him really does look like he's just about to start murdering people. If Darth Vader is some sort of figure who inspires awe and dread just because stories of his cruelty have spread, and by acting utterly cold during said cruelty, Kylo is basically a berserker and a wild card by all accounts.

I'm not quite sure I agree with this... The whole point of the Sith is that they draw their strength from their emotions and that they don't master them... For Vader for example (not Anakin) it was always pretty clear he was drawing on hatred for his strength. Primarily his hatred for Palpatine actually. I think I far prefer Vader to Kylo Ren, I prefer his style and the sense of him drawing his power from his emotions. Of course, this might also be because Darth Vader is simply a more interesting character to me, far cooler, more iconic and simply better. But that's just me...

One thing I want to say in defense of Kylo Ren, because I feel it gets missed a lot on your first viewing.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
A lot of people have complaints about how Kylo Ren gets defeated by Finn and Rey 'so easily', claiming it makes him an underwhelming villain. However, I feel the following should be noted with regards to that.

  • They spent repeated scenes building up the bowcaster as an amazingly destructive weapon. Stormtroopers are sent FLYING by the shots. Kylo Ren takes a shot right to the gut, bends over, and then keeps going. He's got amazing endurance.
  • It is pretty clear he is toying with Finn in their fight. The moment Finn lands a grazing blow against him, he takes Finn out of the picture.
  • He is under orders to take Rey to Snoke, so he can't outright kill her.
  • He is not in his right mental state in that fight either. He just lost Anakin's lightsaber because he was unable to call it to his hand. Furthermore, he just killed his father, expecting to be more powerful in the process. He is definitely shaken from that though.
  • And of course he is clearly not a fully trained Force-user at this point. He has his strong points (grabbing blaster bolts, effectively a souped up Jedi mind trick, etc), but he probably has a lot of things he has missed learning.

A bit opinion, but I also feel that Rey was dramatically drawing on the dark side in that last part of the fight as well. For Kylo Ren, who we see is having trouble channeling the dark side and is avoiding the light side, he would have been at a disadvantage.

Despite what you say, there is no question that he does get defeated fairly "easily"... At the end though, that isn't really what bothered me. What bothered me more was how swiftly Rey seemed able to actually match Kylo, even if he was weak...Now, I would never have said he was toying with Finn, considering that in my memory Finn basically starts the fight by injuring Kylo and then Kylo struggles a bit before taking Finn out. Admittedly, he is wounded and in a pretty bad place mentally, but the fact that he lost both a lightsaber duel and a content of the Force with Rey is kind of unacceptable. In the same way that its unacceptable that Rey somehow learns how to use a Mind Trick without any prior training or experience.

I mean, he SEEMS strong. At the start that whole thing with catching a blaster bolt was fucking awesome! It's just that it felt like they both suddenly weakened him dramatically at the end (arguably because of the conflicting emotions at killing Han and so lacking in strength) but they also massively overpowered Rey. And that's my issue.

Also... Kylo really IS a poor man's Vader. Heck, I think the film even tried to make that clear with the whole "You'll never be as strong as Darth Vader" thing (incidentally, the fact that Rey won that particular battle is also unacceptable).

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #175 on: January 06, 2016, 12:27:47 PM »
Well, I think we have a very different interpretation of the duel, so that is part of it. I felt Rey was struggling until she started channeling the dark side and that he was toying with Finn based on how swiftly the fight completely changes with him.

As for Rey... I feel there is some backstory element with her that we haven't seen yet that is significant to how quickly she learned how to use the Force in terms of both the Mind Trick + lightsaber combat. Lots of fan theories about THAT.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #176 on: January 06, 2016, 12:36:41 PM »
Well, I think we have a very different interpretation of the duel, so that is part of it. I felt Rey was struggling until she started channeling the dark side and that he was toying with Finn based on how swiftly the fight completely changes with him.

As for Rey... I feel there is some backstory element with her that we haven't seen yet that is significant to how quickly she learned how to use the Force in terms of both the Mind Trick + lightsaber combat. Lots of fan theories about THAT.

Well, she was fending him off. And that alone I felt was bothersome. The whole point of a force-sensitive lightsaber duel is that the speed is possible because you can predict your opponents movements while they are predicting yours. In my head any self respecting force-user could absolutely decimate basically anyone except a Droid in close combat (and maybe a few very rare others, like the Mandalorians).

Well, I hope so. If it simply comes down to her parentage then I won't be happy honestly. Partly because of some chatter I saw somewhere which seemed to suggest that Force powers are not really heritable. And partly because it would mean she is Luke's daughter, which just feels way too obvious. If it's some kind of past training then that would make sense if it were not for the context of that it seemed like she was just discovering she could do these things AS she did them (or at least that's how it came across to me). And while some abilities, like pulling the Lightsaber might be straightforward in terms of the Force, prior to Episode VII the only people in the series who have used the Mind Trick have been Jedi/Sith who could be considered to have significant mastery over it, because it's not some straight-forward, brute-strength thing, but is subtle and requires training.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #177 on: January 06, 2016, 03:00:56 PM »
Well, I mean initially I had been joking but also: what? A quick Google search and I found loads of Rey action figurines for sale... One for a, frankly, ridiculous amount of money...

Regarding the current discussion of the Vong:

Now a lot of people seem a good deal more clued up on the EU than I am. I am only aware of the Vong to the extent that they invaded, that was why Palpatine made the Empire and the Death Star (he predicted it), and eventually the Good Guys stopped them. Plus that whole thing led to everything going wrong with Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus. However, while I am aware of the broad strokes (due to rather too much time spent on Wookiepedia), I don't really know all the intricate details and I have never actually read any of the books. So it seems that a few folk in the thread kind of disliked them in the stories (although some liked the premise behind them, if we look at consortim), or at least how the whole arc ended. As I am unable to really comment on the intricacies I can only say that I also just like the whole premise of them, or at least of some kind of external invasion which causes the factions of the Galaxy to team up despite their differences.

At least that would be preferable to a whole new trilogy of Resistance versus New Order, because that would just be faaaar too samey for my liking. So yeah, I'm holding out for an external invasion or more focus on the Force side of things (here's hoping Rey turns to the Dark Side).

I'm not quite sure I agree with this... The whole point of the Sith is that they draw their strength from their emotions and that they don't master them... For Vader for example (not Anakin) it was always pretty clear he was drawing on hatred for his strength. Primarily his hatred for Palpatine actually. I think I far prefer Vader to Kylo Ren, I prefer his style and the sense of him drawing his power from his emotions. Of course, this might also be because Darth Vader is simply a more interesting character to me, far cooler, more iconic and simply better. But that's just me...

Despite what you say, there is no question that he does get defeated fairly "easily"... At the end though, that isn't really what bothered me. What bothered me more was how swiftly Rey seemed able to actually match Kylo, even if he was weak...Now, I would never have said he was toying with Finn, considering that in my memory Finn basically starts the fight by injuring Kylo and then Kylo struggles a bit before taking Finn out. Admittedly, he is wounded and in a pretty bad place mentally, but the fact that he lost both a lightsaber duel and a content of the Force with Rey is kind of unacceptable. In the same way that its unacceptable that Rey somehow learns how to use a Mind Trick without any prior training or experience.

I mean, he SEEMS strong. At the start that whole thing with catching a blaster bolt was fucking awesome! It's just that it felt like they both suddenly weakened him dramatically at the end (arguably because of the conflicting emotions at killing Han and so lacking in strength) but they also massively overpowered Rey. And that's my issue.

Also... Kylo really IS a poor man's Vader. Heck, I think the film even tried to make that clear with the whole "You'll never be as strong as Darth Vader" thing (incidentally, the fact that Rey won that particular battle is also unacceptable).

She did have training from KYLO when did she first do the Jedi Mind Trick after fending off KYLO and it wasn't easy at the beginning of the exchange she got better and in the duel again her style MATCHED KYLO'S it was a Sith approach of thrusting and aggression not a Jedi one Luke never fought that way for example she was learning from his example. And Kylo was hurt and didn't lose the duel there was that crack in the planet placing them out of each others reach if KYLO was in top form REY would have lost. REY fought KYLO to a draw.

Anyway both are going to get more training when they do meet again it should be epic.


Offline Stella

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #178 on: January 06, 2016, 03:28:42 PM »
You mean a group that were brought in that actually challenged force users to think outside of the box? The kind of baddies that didn't rely on someone with a red lightsaber and consisted mainly of hordes of extras for the jedi to zoom through until they got to said baddie with the red lighsaber? Yeah, I can see how some people might see that as annoying. Personally, I found the Vong to be rather inspiring and since they're gonna...
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Destroy Coruscant anyways
, it might as well be with something other than
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
yet another Empire super-weapon.
Plus, it would give Palpatine an actual reason for building this legion of superweapons in the first place other than," For the good of Evil everywhere! Muahahahahaha!" Considering that the book introducing Thrawn is when Palpatine forsees the coming of the Vong.

Thrawn was awesome, though.

Hm, is that sarcasm? :/ No. Those weren't the reasons I preferred other enemies. They just weren't my cup of tea, and I wasn't particularly keen on the direction the EU went in after Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #179 on: January 06, 2016, 08:12:38 PM »
She did have training from KYLO when did she first do the Jedi Mind Trick after fending off KYLO and it wasn't easy at the beginning of the exchange she got better and in the duel again her style MATCHED KYLO'S it was a Sith approach of thrusting and aggression not a Jedi one Luke never fought that way for example she was learning from his example. And Kylo was hurt and didn't lose the duel there was that crack in the planet placing them out of each others reach if KYLO was in top form REY would have lost. REY fought KYLO to a draw.

Anyway both are going to get more training when they do meet again it should be epic.

Uh... What? Surely you're not claiming that having Kylo invade her mind (incidentally, I assume we need a name for that now :P ) just once is training? I mean, I had a football kicked at me once and didn't learn how to play when I kicked it back... I mean, like, actual legit training. I also would have argued she shouldn't have been able to fend him off in the first place. I'll admit it never seemed like she had it easy, but that's not really my point, my point is that I feel like Kylo should have been able to literally just pick her up and throw her around (and I do mean literally) and yet he actually ends up losing to this completely untrained novice.

Plus... Are you kidding? He was down on the ground with a massive lightsaber cut down his face and body. Rey absolutely beasted him at the end. The ground splitting saved his life!

Also, also, not to be rude but why were you capitalising their names like that? I almost felt like I was being yelled at *laughs*

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #180 on: January 06, 2016, 08:48:23 PM »
Personally i'm fine with Kylo getting his butt handed to him a bit. First, is that he had taken a gut shot from the bowcaster (A gun shown to toss mooks into the air from close hits/blasts, and he tanked one to the gut), then he was toying with Finn - until Finn actually got a lucky strike in and wounded Kylo's arm. Kylo and Rey were basically in an endurance match, and Rey already knew melee combat - mostly with a staff... But if you watched the way she fought with the saber, she was basically using the saber the way one would use a staff, not a sword. She basically outlasted a pretty wounded sith apprentice, who in his top game would have won... But one isn't in their top game after tanking a crap ton of hits and bleeding out from one of them (As I assume the shot from chewie was still bleeding. Kylo was basically hitting himself through the fight and I took it as a way to keep himself pumped up/not losing consciousness from bloodloss).

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #181 on: January 06, 2016, 08:59:28 PM »
The camera specifically focused on the blood in the snow from his wound at one point, so yeah, he was still bleeding out from the shot. (Which is kinda odd in its own right, shouldn't a blaster-type weapon cauterize its own wounds? W/e).

Offline Changingsaint

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #182 on: January 06, 2016, 10:14:19 PM »
The camera specifically focused on the blood in the snow from his wound at one point, so yeah, he was still bleeding out from the shot. (Which is kinda odd in its own right, shouldn't a blaster-type weapon cauterize its own wounds? W/e).

He was fighting and moving rather vigorously, I would expect that could still open the wound, or it may not have cauterized properly/fully.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #183 on: January 07, 2016, 10:16:58 AM »
Uh... What? Surely you're not claiming that having Kylo invade her mind (incidentally, I assume we need a name for that now :P ) just once is training? I mean, I had a football kicked at me once and didn't learn how to play when I kicked it back... I mean, like, actual legit training. I also would have argued she shouldn't have been able to fend him off in the first place. I'll admit it never seemed like she had it easy, but that's not really my point, my point is that I feel like Kylo should have been able to literally just pick her up and throw her around (and I do mean literally) and yet he actually ends up losing to this completely untrained novice.

Plus... Are you kidding? He was down on the ground with a massive lightsaber cut down his face and body. Rey absolutely beasted him at the end. The ground splitting saved his life!

Also, also, not to be rude but why were you capitalising their names like that? I almost felt like I was being yelled at *laughs*

He did get a bow caster shot into him he likely had to use the Force to hold back the full effect, Finn slashed him a good one and look at her fighting style in the movie its Sith and its simple on the other counts she's a Force Prodigy like Anakin and Luke were. It was Kylo's fault if he didn't mess with her she wouldn't then be able to tap into her inner Jedi. And I suspect Luke will fall next if he ends up fighting Kylo and Snoke at the same time.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #184 on: January 07, 2016, 10:23:38 AM »
Plus, remember the whole thing of the Dark Side is that it's not more powerful, just easier - you can channel it with far less training or discipline than the Light Side, and if Rey really is tapping into the Dark Side to fight Kylo, it makes sense for her instant power boost/skill increase.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #185 on: January 07, 2016, 11:05:34 AM »
I guess I just don't see the Force that way, that you can just innately learn how to use it. Using Luke as an example if you see the progress he makes between Episode IV and Episode V, in terms of Force Ability it isn't all that impressive. Like, they make a whole thing about the effort he has to put in just to pull his lightsaber towards him. And that is a whole three years after he begins training with the Force. It's only after he actually gets a decent teacher and properly studies that he becomes something of a match for Vader.

I get that the Dark side is easier (and hence more seductive) but I still feel like it takes a long time of training before you are even capable of actually "feeling" the Force. Let alone use it.

Admittedly, Changingsaint, you do make a convincing argument about Kylo's injuries. But what about earlier? When they have that sort of mental battle and Rey pretty handily bears him at his own game. Admittedly this IS a new power which has not been established before. But once again I just don't think it quite right that Rey is capable of doing it quite so easily... I could get if she forced him out of her head, because that seems more like a contest of brute strength, but actually reading his mind back?? Just innately knowing learning how to do that? I just am not a fan...

I feel I should make it clear that I am talking about all of this in the context of both Anakin and Luke Skywalker (both with a fair claim at being THE most powerful Jedi ever). It makes their powers seem negilible that Rey is capable of grasping things in, basically minutes, what it took them years to do.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #186 on: January 07, 2016, 11:27:09 AM »
I see it as the difference between years of hard training in the gym (Light side), and dosing yourself with a bunch of anabolic steroids (Dark Side), as two different means of gaining muscle (Force ability). In the long term, the former is far healthier and honestly just better overall, but the latter is faster+easier, providing a short-term benefit that equals a much larger time commitment to the former. Luke worked out in his jungleswamp gym with a skilled trainer, while Vader took a big hit of drugs and kept using it. Rey here has taken her first hit of the tasty Dark Side juice, it'll be her character arc that determines if she develops a habit or not.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:30:00 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #187 on: January 07, 2016, 11:28:05 AM »
Personally, I took the reading the mind back being more of a matter of the Force power requires some connection between the two minds. Since she was force-sensitive, she was able to push that connection right back. That being said, I do think she is an abnormality in terms of usage of the Force.

Also... all we see Luke doing with Yoda is strengthening his connection with the Force. We never see Yoda go: "This is how you do a Jedi Mind Trick. This is how you Force Choke somebody." But Luke definitely does both of those in RotJ.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #188 on: January 07, 2016, 11:31:12 AM »
Personally, I took the reading the mind back being more of a matter of the Force power requires some connection between the two minds. Since she was force-sensitive, she was able to push that connection right back. That being said, I do think she is an abnormality in terms of usage of the Force.

Also... all we see Luke doing with Yoda is strengthening his connection with the Force. We never see Yoda go: "This is how you do a Jedi Mind Trick. This is how you Force Choke somebody." But Luke definitely does both of those in RotJ.

To be fair, we did get montage-like bits and pieces of said training, and he both of those tricks in Episode VI. Plenty of time for Yoda to have taught him specific tricks offscreen.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #189 on: January 07, 2016, 11:34:13 AM »
To be fair, we did get montage-like bits and pieces of said training, and he both of those tricks in Episode VI. Plenty of time for Yoda to have taught him specific tricks offscreen.

It is true. But Yoda definitely wasn't teaching him how to Force Choke anybody.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #190 on: January 07, 2016, 11:38:54 AM »
It is true. But Yoda definitely wasn't teaching him how to Force Choke anybody.

Which kinda supports my theory above - Force Choke is a Dark technique. By tapping (briefly) the Dark Side, he was able to use a force power instinctively rather than through conscious training and practice, cause that's how Dark Power rolls.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #191 on: January 07, 2016, 11:46:19 AM »
Personally, I took the reading the mind back being more of a matter of the Force power requires some connection between the two minds. Since she was force-sensitive, she was able to push that connection right back. That being said, I do think she is an abnormality in terms of usage of the Force.

Also... all we see Luke doing with Yoda is strengthening his connection with the Force. We never see Yoda go: "This is how you do a Jedi Mind Trick. This is how you Force Choke somebody." But Luke definitely does both of those in RotJ.

Actually, you do make a valid point about the mind connection thing. Kind of like how Harry read Snape's mind when they were doing the whole Occulumency thing. That seems reasonable.

To be fair, we did get montage-like bits and pieces of said training, and he both of those tricks in Episode VI. Plenty of time for Yoda to have taught him specific tricks offscreen.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well. Just because you don't see him learn a specific trick doesn't mean he wasn't taught it.

It is true. But Yoda definitely wasn't teaching him how to Force Choke anybody.

Yeah, but a Force choke isn't exactly a difficult thing... It's just another form of telekinesis along the lines of moving objects. I figure once you learn how move something with the Force it's a quick step to working out other physical manipulations.

Offline Mathim

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #192 on: January 10, 2016, 06:18:32 PM »
Just saw it today with a friend. Didn't really want to but he did. Wasn't really impressed, had a lot of the same problems you guys are talking about with everything that went on. And the part where they were shooting the shit out of that settlement on Jakku when they were trying to capture BB8, did they not think blowing him up would destroy their only tangible link to find Luke? I'm done. He can go see the next one by himself.

To be honest, the best part for me was the fact that John Boyega, who played Finn, played a character called Moses in another movie, Attack the Block, and the beginning of this movie had...*chuckle*...Moses wandering in the desert! I think I was the only one in the theater who put that together.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 06:20:03 PM by Mathim »

Offline RubySlippers

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #193 on: January 12, 2016, 09:30:29 AM »
My suggestion take out the thinking part of your brain, polish it and drop kick it to the side watching most modern movies. You would do yourself a favor and put it back in when you watch classic movies and true masterpieces this is not supposed to be high art like 2001 A Space Odyssey or the original Solaris this is a very big hit popcorn movie. Enjoy that its better than Episode I by a long shot and not as good as the original film which I would argue is only a popular popcorn movie to just serious in that it revitalized a genre big time. It was a hit with fans and entered the popular culture but is still to me a popcorn movie and the Star Wars Franchise never got over that.

But its an enjoyable good popcorn movie in four cases, and bombed in three cases. In my view the prequels need a re-boot and Abrams would be perfect, at a later time.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #194 on: January 12, 2016, 09:38:50 AM »
My suggestion take out the thinking part of your brain, polish it and drop kick it to the side watching most modern movies. You would do yourself a favor and put it back in when you watch classic movies and true masterpieces this is not supposed to be high art like 2001 A Space Odyssey or the original Solaris this is a very big hit popcorn movie. Enjoy that its better than Episode I by a long shot and not as good as the original film which I would argue is only a popular popcorn movie to just serious in that it revitalized a genre big time. It was a hit with fans and entered the popular culture but is still to me a popcorn movie and the Star Wars Franchise never got over that.

But its an enjoyable good popcorn movie in four cases, and bombed in three cases. In my view the prequels need a re-boot and Abrams would be perfect, at a later time.
Honestly, I like the prequels, probably not for the right reasons, but I was a kid (and I've always maintained that's an important factor when a person watches--and how they remember--Star Wars). Nearly every problem that's present in the Prequels can be seen in the Original. Now, if I'm impersonal about it, I'll admit that George Lucas could have used a little more oversight from friends and editors on the prequels, but is VII that much better? Not really, it's got a lot of the same problems, but repeating IV and keeping it subdued doesn't make it anything grand.

Ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people have much more invested in Star Wars than they probably should have, but as someone prone to fits of nostalgia I'm not going to throw stones, but the prequels were at least not trying to redo the original trilogy, which I think is a mark for them.


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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #195 on: January 12, 2016, 12:23:44 PM »
Honestly, I like the prequels, probably not for the right reasons, but I was a kid (and I've always maintained that's an important factor when a person watches--and how they remember--Star Wars). Nearly every problem that's present in the Prequels can be seen in the Original. Now, if I'm impersonal about it, I'll admit that George Lucas could have used a little more oversight from friends and editors on the prequels, but is VII that much better? Not really, it's got a lot of the same problems, but repeating IV and keeping it subdued doesn't make it anything grand.

Ultimately I think it comes down to the fact that a lot of people have much more invested in Star Wars than they probably should have, but as someone prone to fits of nostalgia I'm not going to throw stones, but the prequels were at least not trying to redo the original trilogy, which I think is a mark for them.

I'm actually right with you there. I think it's actually kind of "cool" to hate the prequels, but in reality they really aren't all that bad. Now obviously Darth Jar Jar is a ridiculous character, purely there to try and get little kids to laugh while everyone else disliked him, we all dislike whiney, emo Anakin from Episode 2 (and the whole love story as well) and there's also the general dislike from the hardcore fans for Medichlorians.

However, I think a lot of the Prequels was actually quite good. Thinking back on it, I liked the set-up for Darth Vader. I liked a lot of the space battles and I liked the set-up of the Empire. I think that while the films get a bad rep they also are a bit better than people give them credit for.

Also, for any of you who are actually really into Star Wars, this here essay is actually quite thought provoking and intriguing and suggests that the way Lucas made all six Star Wars films is actually filled with a great deal many more layers than first glance would suggest.

Offline Florence

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #196 on: January 12, 2016, 01:42:40 PM »
I'm actually right with you there. I think it's actually kind of "cool" to hate the prequels, but in reality they really aren't all that bad. Now obviously Darth Jar Jar is a ridiculous character, purely there to try and get little kids to laugh while everyone else disliked him, we all dislike whiney, emo Anakin from Episode 2 (and the whole love story as well) and there's also the general dislike from the hardcore fans for Medichlorians.

However, I think a lot of the Prequels was actually quite good. Thinking back on it, I liked the set-up for Darth Vader. I liked a lot of the space battles and I liked the set-up of the Empire. I think that while the films get a bad rep they also are a bit better than people give them credit for.

Also, for any of you who are actually really into Star Wars, this here essay is actually quite thought provoking and intriguing and suggests that the way Lucas made all six Star Wars films is actually filled with a great deal many more layers than first glance would suggest.

Eeeeh, I gotta disagree. I'm talking as someone who enjoyed the prequels as a kid. I went back to watch them again, and... Phantom Menace was just... the Phantom Menace. It had Liam Neeson. That was pretty cool. Pretty much everything else was dumb. Ewan McGregor is awesome, but I didn't feel like he really came into his own as Obi-Wan until.. maybe Attack of the Clones. Jar Jar was obnoxious. Even as a kid I knew he was obnoxious. Darth Maul was cool, I guess, but he's honestly just kinda got less cool over time. The plot was boring, the characters were boring, the action was... yep, still pretty boring.

But I have to admit... I'm not sure its my least favorite any more.  For the longest time I pretty much went in reverse order. Revenge of the Sith was the best, Attack of the Clones was okay, Phantom Menace was the worst... but upon viewing them again... I kind of found Attack of the Clones to be the worst of the three. There was the big battle at the end which was cool but the entire rest of the movie was just a chore to get through. Even the parts with Jango Fett were tiresome and just... uninteresting.

Revenge of the Sith is still my favorite of the three, though, and I consider it more or less on par with Return of the Jedi. That should kinda say something though. The best of the prequels is on par with the worst of the originals.

Personally, I think they REALLY dropped the ball on Anakin's character development. Even as a kid I rarely found myself liking him. I always found Obi-Wan to be the more compelling character and that's probably just because it was Ewan McGregor playing him. I mean, he seemed like the one actor consistently trying through all three movies.

I did enjoy the new one, though. I mean, you can dissect the movie all you want, but at the end of the day, I enjoyed this one, and I didn't enjoy the prequels (at least, not after my brain had developed enough to not be easily impressed by the cinematic equivalent of jingling car keys), and that makes it a better movie in my book.

People accuse it of ripping off the classic movies, but I didn't view that to be the case at all. It certainly rehashed elements of the original movie, but I felt like it did so in fresh enough ways that... watching it, I just didn't care. I had a few moments where I was like "Oh hey, this is like the original", but never in a bad way.

tl;dr, TFA wasn't boring, and that's enough to make it better than the prequels in my book, ESPECIALLY the first two prequel movies.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #197 on: January 13, 2016, 02:55:46 AM »
Talking about the prequels and Phantom Menace in particular while clearly there's an awful lot wrong with it I also think the final fight with Maul is probably the best lightsabre duel across all the films. Without having either old actors or people in heavy suits there's a level of technique and athleticism they can use there that doesn't appear in either the original trilogy or Attack of the Clones, while it's not as overwhelmed by obvious CGI as either the final fight between Anakin and Obi Wan or whenever Yoda and Palpatine draw their blades.

There's also both some visually cool and pretty nice ideas in there as well; the double bladed lightsabre is a good start but the way the fight gets broken up by the "shields" (or whatever they are) also works damn well; it gives us the cool visual and character development point of Qui-Gon Jinn meditating while Maul paces, there's Obi Wan having to look on helplessly while his mentor and friend is killed and it also allows for one-on-one fights without resorting to the equivalent of the WWE situation where a wrestler gets thrown out of the ring and has to stay down for an inordinately long amount of time so the other wrestlers can face off.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #198 on: January 13, 2016, 06:47:51 AM »
I just have two things against the Darth Maul fight, though overall it is quite a nice touch.

1. An actual nitpick of the fight is the ending is incredibly unsatisfying. Maul just stands nice and still and lets himself get chopped in two. Also, I'm less of a fan of the random walls, because I think it begs the question of how come they didn't use the Force Speed they used EARLIER IN THE SAME MOVIE to get past it. Obi-Wan in particular has no excuse.

2. Less of a issue with the Darth Maul fight itself as much as the directors, I think they took the lightsaber duel in Phantom Menace, saw that people liked it, and then totally misjudged what people liked it for. I think they were like: "Wow, people liked this super choreographed fight full of flips and dramatic athleticism! Let's make EVERY lightsaber fight even more choreographed from now on!" But I look at that lightsaber fight and it is still visceral and grounded at least somewhat in sense. Sure, there is some choreographing that is obvious, but everybody is more or less making reasonable strikes with their blades. They don't have the lightsaber rave scene from Episode 3.

...overall, I think that story matters more for me than flashy effects. So I would have to say that I prefer the lightsaber duel in Return of the Jedi where we see Luke embracing the dark side briefly, because it gets across that effect using the duel as a storytelling technique and not a single word until the very end. Also, I think I WOULD have to say I prefer the Force Awakens lightsaber fight because they really captured the essences of the characters I think within the combat itself. Which is a nice touch.

Edit: Bonus point: I REALLY like the lightsaber fights in Star Wars: Rebels too. I worried they were going to go the path of Revenge of the Sith.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2016, 07:30:31 AM »
Eeeeh, I gotta disagree. I'm talking as someone who enjoyed the prequels as a kid. I went back to watch them again, and... Phantom Menace was just... the Phantom Menace. It had Liam Neeson. That was pretty cool. Pretty much everything else was dumb. Ewan McGregor is awesome, but I didn't feel like he really came into his own as Obi-Wan until.. maybe Attack of the Clones. Jar Jar was obnoxious. Even as a kid I knew he was obnoxious. Darth Maul was cool, I guess, but he's honestly just kinda got less cool over time. The plot was boring, the characters were boring, the action was... yep, still pretty boring.

But I have to admit... I'm not sure its my least favorite any more.  For the longest time I pretty much went in reverse order. Revenge of the Sith was the best, Attack of the Clones was okay, Phantom Menace was the worst... but upon viewing them again... I kind of found Attack of the Clones to be the worst of the three. There was the big battle at the end which was cool but the entire rest of the movie was just a chore to get through. Even the parts with Jango Fett were tiresome and just... uninteresting.

Revenge of the Sith is still my favorite of the three, though, and I consider it more or less on par with Return of the Jedi. That should kinda say something though. The best of the prequels is on par with the worst of the originals.

Personally, I think they REALLY dropped the ball on Anakin's character development. Even as a kid I rarely found myself liking him. I always found Obi-Wan to be the more compelling character and that's probably just because it was Ewan McGregor playing him. I mean, he seemed like the one actor consistently trying through all three movies.

I did enjoy the new one, though. I mean, you can dissect the movie all you want, but at the end of the day, I enjoyed this one, and I didn't enjoy the prequels (at least, not after my brain had developed enough to not be easily impressed by the cinematic equivalent of jingling car keys), and that makes it a better movie in my book.

People accuse it of ripping off the classic movies, but I didn't view that to be the case at all. It certainly rehashed elements of the original movie, but I felt like it did so in fresh enough ways that... watching it, I just didn't care. I had a few moments where I was like "Oh hey, this is like the original", but never in a bad way.

tl;dr, TFA wasn't boring, and that's enough to make it better than the prequels in my book, ESPECIALLY the first two prequel movies.

Honestly, I quite liked the actin in Phantom Menace, but really I think that comes down to a matter of taste and there isn't much more to be said. You didn't like it, I did. I would say this though, Darth Maul becomes really cool as a character in the Clone Wars TV show. In fact the story arc involving him, his brother and Obi-Wan was probably the best thing from those five series.

I've actually always thought Clone Wars was the worst of three for the exact reason you just said. Everything from the moment the stadium scene starts is awesome, but from about 20 minutes in you just get an hour of Anakin and Padme and it's just so fucking unspeakably boring. I totally get why they did it, it was necessary to see Anakin's development of finding something he loves and the death of his mother, but they just made it drag out so bloody long.

I also liked Revenge of the Sith, but I'll disagree with the other statement, but that's primarily because my favourite of all of the films is Return of the Jedi. I realise that's definitely unusual and not the commonly accepted belief, but for me it's definitely my favourite. For me, I always loved Luke Skywalker. Lots of people thought Han Solo was cool and all that, but Luke was my favourite character from day one and so seeing him evolve into a true Jedi Knight is probably the best thing in the whole series for me. Plus, Darth Vader's return to the Light side. Them feels.

You're probably right about the dislike of Anakin stemming from a dislike for the actor rather than the character. Although, like you say, it's nearly impossible to stomach Anakin in The Attack of the Clones and so it's pretty hard to get over that. So when he finally starts dropping his whiney, bitchy persona in Episode 3, by then you've already had 2 full episodes of Ewen McGregor being awesome, so there was just no way to stand up against that.

Talking about the prequels and Phantom Menace in particular while clearly there's an awful lot wrong with it I also think the final fight with Maul is probably the best lightsabre duel across all the films. Without having either old actors or people in heavy suits there's a level of technique and athleticism they can use there that doesn't appear in either the original trilogy or Attack of the Clones, while it's not as overwhelmed by obvious CGI as either the final fight between Anakin and Obi Wan or whenever Yoda and Palpatine draw their blades.

There's also both some visually cool and pretty nice ideas in there as well; the double bladed lightsabre is a good start but the way the fight gets broken up by the "shields" (or whatever they are) also works damn well; it gives us the cool visual and character development point of Qui-Gon Jinn meditating while Maul paces, there's Obi Wan having to look on helplessly while his mentor and friend is killed and it also allows for one-on-one fights without resorting to the equivalent of the WWE situation where a wrestler gets thrown out of the ring and has to stay down for an inordinately long amount of time so the other wrestlers can face off.

I just have two things against the Darth Maul fight, though overall it is quite a nice touch.

1. An actual nitpick of the fight is the ending is incredibly unsatisfying. Maul just stands nice and still and lets himself get chopped in two. Also, I'm less of a fan of the random walls, because I think it begs the question of how come they didn't use the Force Speed they used EARLIER IN THE SAME MOVIE to get past it. Obi-Wan in particular has no excuse.

2. Less of a issue with the Darth Maul fight itself as much as the directors, I think they took the lightsaber duel in Phantom Menace, saw that people liked it, and then totally misjudged what people liked it for. I think they were like: "Wow, people liked this super choreographed fight full of flips and dramatic athleticism! Let's make EVERY lightsaber fight even more choreographed from now on!" But I look at that lightsaber fight and it is still visceral and grounded at least somewhat in sense. Sure, there is some choreographing that is obvious, but everybody is more or less making reasonable strikes with their blades. They don't have the lightsaber rave scene from Episode 3.

...overall, I think that story matters more for me than flashy effects. So I would have to say that I prefer the lightsaber duel in Return of the Jedi where we see Luke embracing the dark side briefly, because it gets across that effect using the duel as a storytelling technique and not a single word until the very end. Also, I think I WOULD have to say I prefer the Force Awakens lightsaber fight because they really captured the essences of the characters I think within the combat itself. Which is a nice touch.

Edit: Bonus point: I REALLY like the lightsaber fights in Star Wars: Rebels too. I worried they were going to go the path of Revenge of the Sith.

I probably agree that the Darth Maul fight is one of the best, if not my favourite fight (for the same reasons I've stated above with Luke being my favourite character).

Anne makes a good point about the fight possibly being the reason the fights from then on became so massively overblown. Particularly the lightsaber duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

I actually think the best Lightsaber fights I've ever seen are also animated ones, but not from a TV show either. In fact my favourites are probably those in the cinematic trailers for Star Wars: The Old Republic. If you haven't seen them I seriously suggest you give them a look. Despite being a few years old now they still remain absolutely world class in terms of animation.



There's an absolutely fucking BEAUTIFUL moment around 3:00 minutes into that video where one of the Sith has disarmed and pinned the Jedi apprentice and is about to deliver a killing blow but then the Jedi Master throws his lightsaber across the room, the blade blocking the strike and then he calls it back into his hand using the force. What I love about these fights is that they incorporate two of the most important things that I think a lightsaber fight has to have:

First off: it ALWAYS has to be form following function. I think a big part of the reason that the fight in Revenge of the Sith was so overblown was because half of the time Obi-Wan and Anakin are just swinging their lightsabers around. It LOOKS flashy and cool until you realise that they aren't actually doing anything and are, in reality, just swinging their blades around for the express purpose of TRYING to look cool. In comparison, the fight in The Force Awakens was a perfect example of form following function because every single blow that Kylo and Rey are landing look like they are done with the intention of killing or wounding. It's why the fight has that brutal "Dark Side" quality, because it's pretty clear that they are ACTUALLY fighting as opposed to just swinging their toys around.

Secondly: it has to be clear that these people are force-sensitive. The reason they are so deadly with these blades is that they can predict the future, and are constantly predicting the future throughout the fight. They can just about see their opponent's moves while their opponent is doing the same to them. They should not only be obviously very acrobatic and athletic, but they should also be pulling off moves that would just not be possible or plausible if it were just two particularly good sword fighters. This is where, I think, The Force Awaken's lightsaber fight falls just a little flat (only a little, I thought it was extremely awesome while I was watching it) because it just looks like two people swinging glowing swords at each other. There's no subtlety.

Meanwhile in these trailers, you have the characters doing absolutely insane things, obviously starting to move BEFORE the other person has started to move as well in order to intercept them and fight them.

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2016, 07:47:07 AM »
I do love me some Old Republic! If only the game's endgame wasn't so riddled with bugs to the support that they just ended up not supporting it...

See, I've always heard the argument that they get flashes of insight into the future that guides how they carry out lightsaber combat and it always fell a bit flat to me. "Always in motion is the future" is a line that Yoda uses in particular. The idea that Jedi are able to perpetually see three seconds into the future with perfect precision always felt wonky.

So that was one of the things I was happy to see fall to the wayside in Force Awakens. That and the Empire being randomly racist for no reason.

Offline consortium11

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2016, 08:28:29 AM »
I do love me some Old Republic! If only the game's endgame wasn't so riddled with bugs to the support that they just ended up not supporting it...

You want bugs, go back to KOTOR 2; not only did they have to cut huge portions of the game out, what was left was still bug riddled. It's a really pity as the take on the Force in that is one of the most interesting ever presented in a Star Wars universe.



One of the "issues" with lighsabre duels is that they basically have to follow the rule of cool as a way to stop people thinking about it too much otherwise they stop making sense. The obvious example eventually got given a name in the EU (Tràkata); basically turning your own lightsabre on and off. Pretty much any parry in a lightsabre duel should be useless, especially the "dramatic" ones where it's held for a while; all either fighter has to do is turn their own lightsabre off and then turn it back on again when it's past the parry for virtually an auto win.

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2016, 08:42:55 AM »
I do love me some Old Republic! If only the game's endgame wasn't so riddled with bugs to the support that they just ended up not supporting it...

See, I've always heard the argument that they get flashes of insight into the future that guides how they carry out lightsaber combat and it always fell a bit flat to me. "Always in motion is the future" is a line that Yoda uses in particular. The idea that Jedi are able to perpetually see three seconds into the future with perfect precision always felt wonky.

So that was one of the things I was happy to see fall to the wayside in Force Awakens. That and the Empire being randomly racist for no reason.

Could never get into it. I played it AAAAAGES ago back in the Open Beta and thought it LOOKED cool (because I fucking love Star Wars) but it just never edged out WoW for me. But that's a discussion for here.

Well, see, I've always thought that made perfect sense. I mean, the future of a week from now IS going to always be in motion. If you think about real life, what if tomorrow I decide to actually go out for my lunch instead of having sandwichs and I get hit by a random car. That's HARD to predict, and you need a real connection with the Force to be able to do that sort of thing (or a deep connection with the person it involves). On the other hand, predicting what's going to happen 3 seconds from now is kind of possible even without any connection to the mystical Force. I doubt I could, in the next 3 seconds, do anything to really drastically alter the future, and in the middle of an intense sword fight I suspect it's much the same. There may be options, but a lot of the time you will already be making a decision about what to do, and that is what the other person predicts. Hell, even in a real sword fight/fencing one would expect an expert to be able to predict what another person will do based on movements/stance/tactics etc, I just see this as an extra edge to that.

You want bugs, go back to KOTOR 2; not only did they have to cut huge portions of the game out, what was left was still bug riddled. It's a really pity as the take on the Force in that is one of the most interesting ever presented in a Star Wars universe.



One of the "issues" with lighsabre duels is that they basically have to follow the rule of cool as a way to stop people thinking about it too much otherwise they stop making sense. The obvious example eventually got given a name in the EU (Tràkata); basically turning your own lightsabre on and off. Pretty much any parry in a lightsabre duel should be useless, especially the "dramatic" ones where it's held for a while; all either fighter has to do is turn their own lightsabre off and then turn it back on again when it's past the parry for virtually an auto win.

Aaaah, see though, this is the point. That OUGHT to be a legitimate move, but if the other combatant predicts that you will turn off your lightsaber then suddenly you are defenseless for that brief flash of time and so while you are moving your turned off lightsaber into the position to turn it back on again, the other guy is already chopping your arm off (see below: "Touching the Void" and "Restore the Balance").

You just check this out, it's pretty cool even if it's definitely not canon in any way:

« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 08:44:06 AM by Assassini »

Online AmberStarfire

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #203 on: January 13, 2016, 08:58:11 AM »
That picture reminds me of Art of the Saber.

(If the music at the start isn't to your taste - stick with it or forward past it. The saber fight is cool).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRVo3hwRYMU

Offline AnneReinard

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #204 on: January 13, 2016, 09:00:43 AM »
-10 points for the 9gag version where they put that damnable watermark on it and repost with no artist permission or credit.

Buuuut... I am quite fond of that. The dark side ones with "Torture at Will" make me giggle.

Offline Assassini

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2016, 09:59:08 AM »
-10 points for the 9gag version where they put that damnable watermark on it and repost with no artist permission or credit.

Buuuut... I am quite fond of that. The dark side ones with "Torture at Will" make me giggle.

Yeah, I actually only ever saw it as a repost of a repost (rule of the internet, yo) so you'll have to forgive the 9gag cancer.

Edit:

That picture reminds me of Art of the Saber.

(If the music at the start isn't to your taste - stick with it or forward past it. The saber fight is cool).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRVo3hwRYMU

Also, if you enjoy amateur lightsaber videos (and good god, that's from 2002? No wonder it looks like it was filmed with a potato) then you cannot go wrong with the Ryan vs. Dorkman series. Back in the day (and I really do mean back in the day) they were the gods of amateur lightsabers. Was pretty legit!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 10:02:24 AM by Assassini »

Offline Mathim

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #206 on: February 10, 2016, 08:50:46 AM »
I defy anyone to fail to enjoy this.



Online Lustful Bride

Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #207 on: August 19, 2017, 10:21:55 AM »
Not sure where else to put this, this thread seems like the best place to discuss the new Star Wars news.

Anyway, an Obi Wan stand alone film is now in negotiations.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/obi-wan-kenobi-star-wars-film-planned-director-talks-1030505


I am so excited for this I hope they bring back Ewan Maccgregor. I am eager to see what they do with this.

I kind of hope that It will go with a Logan type feel, slowly building to the arrival of a long forgotten enemy.

Spoilers for Rebels
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 10:25:48 AM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: The new Star Wars
« Reply #208 on: August 21, 2017, 08:48:41 AM »
I know I'm a bit late to this party, but having finally seen Rogue One, I will say that I am definitely looking forward to the Obi Wan stand alone. Especially if they do it the same justice that they did Rogue One. Admittedly, I went into the movie skeptical. Actually, if I'm completely honest, I went into Rogue One WANTING to hate it, since so much of what I love about the universe is tied to the dichotomy of the Force, and Rogue One is largely bereft of Jedi and Sith, especially when Ep7 was such a massive disappointment to me. The whole movie just felt like it was... not necessarily jumping from one point to the next so much as... ugh it's hard to put into words.

Like, you know how with any movie you watch, logically, you know that there are plenty of things going on in the universe, arbitrary or relevant, that you never see in the movie because... well, you can only fit so much in a time frame, and the point of the movie is to cover those moments that are most captivating and relevant to a story. But it's not something that ever actually occurs to you as missing from the film. I'm speaking, of course, of filler. We, as writers, deal with filler enough to know that there is a fine line between too much and not enough, and how it is applied.

Ep7 felt like... I dunno... the whole movie was just pushing from one 'important' moment to the next for the sake of getting to the next scene. Like it didn't really flow. And, really, of all the complaints I thought I would have about a disney made Star Wars film, this was not among them. All in all, I would have given Ep7 a 7/10 (which... is me being generous because of my love for the universe) which would probably be a 5 or 6/10 for anyone else. Not that I want to speak for anyone else in this.

Anyways, maybe it took Ep7 for them to work the kinks out of the equation, because they definitely did right by Rogue One in my book. I'm definitely looking forward to more Star Wars movies and hopefully more television shows.