Star Wars sequels

[HailLucifer]

Opinions? I personally love them. I grew up on the OT and I feel like I’m the only long term fan that actually likes the prequels. Most the prequel fan base got introduced to Star Wars through the prequels, which is totally fine and awesome!

[HailLucifer]

Lmao I meant sequels. But for the record, I like the prequels too. My brain is fuzzy rn because it’s late and I have a migraine.

[Blythe]

Moved this thread to Off Topic, as the Off Topic section is more germane for Star Wars. :)

[Fierbali111]

I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.

[Deamonbane]

Love the OT. Love the prequels. The Force Awakens is a decent flick. Last Jedi... I really wanted to like it. I thought I did after the first viewing. But the more I watched it, the angrier I got with it.

[Tolvo]

I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.

Rey fails plenty of times, and does not outclass Han or Luke. Han is still the better pilot and with a blaster and better talker, Luke is still a far more powerful Jedi, even Leia has shown to be more powerful than Rey though that scene was pretty jarring not gonna lie. Rey is still young and inexperienced similar to Luke during Empire and is not even as skilled yet as Anakin Skywalker and likely she won't reach that level. Keep in mind a problem also comes from level of technology, Luke during Return of the Jedi doesn't do all of the feats that Obi Wan can do in Phantom Menace when Obi was a mere padawan. But Obi Wan at that point wouldn't be able to beat Darth Vader, yet Luke could in Return. Because they escalate the powers and abilities based on available technology when the movies are made. If they remade A New Hope now Old Ben would be flipping off walls and Darth Vader would be crushing starships to throw at him(In the Disney Novels Darth Vader and Palpatine are Force Unleashed Level powerful as seen in Lords of the Sith where they destroy entire starships with ease and can defeat armies single handed, similar to the old EU). Again, comparing to other characters, in the first movie Luke blows up the Death Star and out-pilots tons of veterans. Rey out pilots a bunch of TIE Fighters mainly, she never even out pilots Ren who is shown as superior to her and more like Anakin(Who as a child out classed veterans). A lot of the flying scenes she's aided by Chewbacca in The Last Jedi who is often actually flying it. Poe is the far better pilot than Rey or Finn. Rey is not really the best at anything, she's just better at most things than Finn. Though he's a better shot and more skilled with military tactics and knowledge than she is. For combat it is basically an untested trained trooper(Finn) up against a force sensitive street fighter and survivalist with tons of experience(Rey). And Finn during his first real battle froze up and deserted. While Rey has had to kill before growing up for survival.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjVvLRKjJLE

Also you may want to watch the movie again, Yoda doesn't destroy the Jedi texts. The movie contains a lot of subtle moments. Luke believes he did, as Yoda says the tree contained nothing she didn't already have.

“Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.” - Yoda

But Yoda is making a joke here. And it is shown later when people look through drawers on the Falcon, one drawer is full of all the Jedi Texts that Rey stole from the tree before Yoda hit it with lightning. Finn accidentally finds them when looking for a blanket and just thinks they're a bunch of random books but those are the sacred texts Luke showed Rey. It's a part of why I encourage repeat watches of The Last Jedi is a lot of things people miss because they aren't as attentive and such subtlety isn't common in a lot of Star Wars movies which are usually pretty blatant about things. Rey also showed great interest in the texts prior to this.

All of the main new characters have been shown to have flaws, to struggle to succeed, to have moments of fear and doubt. Rey really just beats up unnamed thugs easily(Makes sense she lived her whole life fighting against such people and is skilled with melee weapons). Rey for instance barely wins against Ren who was toying with her and was basically hit with a bazooka(Chewbacca's Bowcaster) the scene prior and was bleeding profusely and severely injured. Ren is also not even considered to be as skilled as basically any of the main Jedi or Sith we've seen, he has a power the others didn't show(Holding blaster bolts in the air) but Snoke and Luke are still the most powerful people around, or, who were around at the time. It is mentioned Ren isn't even fully trained and is still pretty novice and again that shows in his behavior. Darth Vader alone could probably take Rey and Ren at once while barely paying attention(Like he did to Luke in Empire). Poe not as much at first until The Last Jedi when he royally fucks up a ton. Honestly I can't think of a character who doesn't make serious mistakes in any of these films among the heroes or villains. Holdo was right about Poe but still miscalculated and her plan was foiled so she had to sacrifice herself to save the others. A lot of The Last Jedi is about learning from the past and trying to make a better future after all, with a focus on making a new better generation to take up the mantle after the old one has died out or been lost. Yoda is probably the only person in this movie who doesn't make mistakes, though it mentions he made many in the past such as during the Clone Wars.

Force Awakens is fun but pretty standard, The Last Jedi I think is contender for best Star Wars film in my opinion, I'd rank it in a similar place as Empire, A New Hope, and Rogue One. The Last Jedi I'd recommend repeat watches but Force Awakens you'll probably get all you need from one watch to be honest. And you can pick up on the things in The Last Jedi if close attention is paid throughout but people aren't really expected to do that for a Star Wars movie.

I still think Starkiller Base is really stupid, not just in the size and scale, but how it somehow fires that energy that then just goes into hyperspace itself or something? They treat it like it just itself fires like the Death Star but the Death Star needed to be at a planet to blow it up, and they don't fire it into like a focus that launches the energy through Hyperspace to a target. It just fires, goes into space, seems to trail off into the distance, cut to planets billions of lightyears away being blown up, unless Hosnian Prime blew up in like a billion years? It really makes no sense and it's a weird flaw that it seems like people during production didn't notice that is really beyond a lot of smaller science errors in Star Wars you can kind of ignore. The existence of Hyperspace jumps is designed to get around the distance and time problem via fast-than-light travel and they kind of just forgot or didn't notice this would require hyperspace.

[Deamonbane]

While I disagree with you about Rey (also known as Mary Sue, Star Wars edition), and without going into all the evidence of her acquiring force powers when the plot needs her to, acquiring skills when the plot needs her to (because even though she's only spent a few hours in the Falcon, of course she knows how to fix it better than that nobody Han Solo), since this was a flaw in both films.

While not going into all the plot holes, inconsistencies and plot twists used for the sole purpose of being expectation subversion that make the Last Jedi one of the worst films ever made, never mind the worst Star Wars movie of all time, I do have one question to ask: How is the Starkiller Base any more stupid than suddenly introducing the use of entering hyperspace as a weapon that can destroy fleets?

[Tolvo]

Hyperspace Rings are already shown in Attack of the Clones, Obi Wan's Jedi Starfighter uses them. Before Revenge of the Sith when they have built in hyperdrives. So already the Prequels establish those rings exist.

Rey doesn't gain new skills for the sake of plot she always had them, as mentioned she knows a lot about ships and has already been in the Falcon before as it was her boss's ship, she brings this up and how she thinks he made terrible modifications to it which Han agrees with. Han also is shown in the original trilogy to not be good at repairing ships, C3PO corrects him at times on how to repair the Falcon when Han couldn't and C3PO turns out to be right. And Han's ship is a modified common form of freighter, while it is modified it is still that common form of freighter which anyone can simply read about. And again, she mentions she's been in it before and worked on it in the film. And has flown before and spends almost all her free time in simulations. And still doesn't fly as well as Han does. The only one that was convenient is just that she can resist Kylo Ren's mind probe, which required just being powerful enough in the Force so Luke Skywalker and most main character Jedi can do that from the get go.

She's not as drastic as Luke Skywalker who goes from a farm boy who shoots rats in his training ship to blowing up the Death Star. Or Anakin Skywalker who goes from piloting a pod racer to blowing up Droid Flagships. Obi Wan was a padawan who defeated Darth Maul who defeated with ease a Jedi Master on the Jedi Council who was considered one of their greatest warriors(Though Darth Maul died mostly due to hubris). You can call Rey a Mary Sue but with that criteria most main characters in Star Wars are that then.

Or do you mean the Hyperspace ram? That's been done before in the EU. As well makes sense that it can work though often wouldn't. Enemies can scan your hyperdrive and your computers and just knowing it is charged up and where your ship is aimed would tell them when and where you're roughly going(Except distance which factors into travelling anything past a planet). So anyone wanting to hyperspace ram needs the enemy to not be paying attention, not expect it, or be so overconfident they don't realize it. Something the First Order hit the check marks for. And since it won't work from outside of a lightyear(Due to ships constantly moving and not actually staying still). Though it could be used on planets pretty easily since they follow trajectories and have orbits.

[Deamonbane]

Not sure what the hyperspace rings have to do with anything so... okay?

That said, there is no sign that Rey has ever piloted a ship before. No sign that she has ever operated so much as a blaster before, much less the turret guns on Falcon. She's a scrapper. At no point in the film is it ever displayed that she knows how to fix ships until she's on a ship fixing one. It's been a while since I've watched the Force Awakens, but from what I remember, the only thing that's set up of Rey's knowledge of the Falcon prior to her flying it better than skilled and trained imperial pilots fly their Tie Fighters is Finn pointing at the Falcon, and Rey says that it's garbage. And then proceeds to out-pilot Tie Fighter pilots with the same garbage. That's plot-acquired skills if I've ever seen them. As for fixing the Falcon, Han was always terrible at it, but as far as I know, that still trumps 'self-taught scrapper'.

So yes, far more drastic than Luke Skywalker, who was shown to have some skill in piloting charging into a battle and 'using the force' with the help of his dead mentor in a battle where some skill piloting a training ship and shooting at rats was enough since the rebellion was desperate for anyone at that moment. The rest can be amounted to what little that he learned about the force with Ben and then a bit of luck. It's a reasonable reach in logic, as opposed to Rey suddenly knowing how to out-pilot Tie fighter pilots with an old smuggling ship.

Similarly Anakin, having used the force without knowing it for years in building and piloting pod-racers (as the only human who can do it), and since most of the space battle is run on auto-pilot or R2 getting him out of trouble. Again, a reasonable leap.

And... well, I don't know if you remember the battle between Obi-Wan and Maul, but Obi-Wan was trained by one of the best of the best, and Maul still defeats him. The only reason why Kenobi walked away from that is because Maul decided to play with his kill instead of just killing him. Obi-Wan attacks, with his rage tapping into years and years of training and skill to stand up in a fight against a trained Sith Lord but still losing is not a leap in logic. Rey being able to not only stand up against but thoroughly trounce a trained Sith Lord (no matter how wounded, he still should have been able to crush her, or at least put up a fight) is a lot more of a leap. Her suddenly being able to perform a mind trick out of nowhere with no training is also a leap. Her being able to shoot not one, not two, but three fighters in her second firefight on the Falcon, and first time manning the turrets, is also a leap (though that was more of a rule of cool leap than anything). And don't get me started on the bullshit of the fight in the red room (conveniently disappearing knife by the red guardsman, anyone?)

Rey is a Mary Sue. That's not up for debate. She acquires skills and powers as the plot needs her to with no explanation, training or reasonable adaptation. She's completely lacking in flaws or weaknesses. She's a walking talking trope at this point.

As for the Hyperspace Ram, yes, that was the greatest plot point of them all. I'll admit that it looked cool, but if it is one of the greatest plot holes of all time. Not only because it's something that comes out of nowhere to change the direction of the plot (and therefore being inherently plot-centric), but because it gives rise to the question of why the hell is this the first time that it's being used? If it was used before (EU or no) why aren't there devices in place to protect against it? And don't give me that explanation that it's too expensive to be done with ships. It still would have been used at some point in the universe that would have merited some kind of mention, either in the clone wars, the Sith Wars... somewhere, sometime there would have been some mention of a desperate battlefield move that people have to prepare for now. It's creates a plot hole not only in the movie, but in the whole of the universe. There's no explanation for it, no prior mention of it, and if it were something new and bold, you'd think there would be some reaction other than sadness over Holdo's sacrifice. Not to be insensitive, but I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of the following.
Poe: "Holy shit, she took out a whole First Order fleet in one stroke. Why the hell didn't we pull this shit before?"
Leia: "Because it's too expensive, it's too dangerous, it has too many variables to account for, etc etc etc..."

Everything you said there regarding distance, size enemy distraction would all be okay, except that it's never addressed in the film or the canon. If a film is left open to questions to which the answers can only be found in vague, hard-to-find comics and books from the 70s sort of explain and which have already been invalidated and turned into 'Legends' it creates a problem usually referred to by writers as plot holes.

That added to the useless Finn and Rose romp to casino planet (that goes nowhere) the Poe vs. Holdo plot (That goes nowhere) the Finn sacrificing himself plot (which might have been a saving point for the film if Rose doesn't go in and almost kill him and herself to save him, so it goes nowhere), Rey's lack of training that doesn't do much more than provide exposition for Kylo's history, which also goes nowhere, since Kylo remains the same whiny, fit-prone emo that he was at the start of the film, the Last Jedi is full of a lot of padding and very little substance which is undermined by the plot holes and inconsistencies. That adds up to a bad film overall, in my book.

Edit: And let's not forget the useless opening bomber scene. That one actually annoyed me on my first viewing. Where the hell are you Y-Wing fighters that you see being used as bombers far more effectively in Rogue One.

Edit Edit: Oh, and the Leia floating through space scene too. That was just damn painful.

[Tolvo]

Well I explained the Rey parts, if you don't want to read what I said you don't have to but I'd just be repeating the parts where Rey in the Force Awakens states that she's been on the Falcon, since her boss owned it and that she's tinkered with it and, that she has flown before which she mentions, and that she spends all her free time in simulations which she states and we see her simulation programs and terminals in her house. I might suggest rewatching these movies. Rey had far more experience explicitly than Luke or Anakin prior to the events where they show off their skills, and Rey still doesn't show off as grand of moments.

Like do you think TIE fighter pilots are the best in the galaxy? It is established First Order troops and pilots are better than the old Empire, but still can be pretty bad. Finn is considered to be one of their best soldiers for example. Rey being a Mary Sue I'd find to be heavily up for debate unless again most other Star Wars heroes are too. Anakin is part of a prophecy even. To be frank Anakin and Luke are way more of tropes.

For the fight in the throne room, it is two skilled force users with lightsabers against a group of highly skilled warriors without lightsabers and without the force. Rey alone could not take them on, her and Ren combined barely did, and had the advantage of lightsabers and the Force. Though yes there is a technical error in that scene. Star Wars films have many of those. Ren alone probably couldn't beat them either and needed help.

I'm not sure why it's ok that Anakin and Luke were untrained but had mentors and luck, but Rey being experienced and having mentors and luck is not ok. Luke and Anakin are not established to have as much skill originally as Rey does. Anakin by Attack of the Clones is a trained fighter and experienced pilot, and Luke by Return of the Jedi is a fledgling Jedi, but they also do way grander of things. Rey has defeated TIE Fighters, has beaten a severely injured guy who wasn't trying to kill her, has defeated guards with the help of a far more skilled warrior while they both had the Force and their enemies didn't, and she lifted a bunch of rocks which she'd been training to do for a while. Mind tricks aren't established to be super hard, many characters use them with a flick of the wrist no concentration at all and Luke can use it in Return of the Jedi without being told how to do it. And Rey was told about the ability, and used it on a simple Storm Trooper.

The Hyperspace ram is not a plot hole, a plot hole would be the way fuel and propulsion works in The Last Jedi, since they're in open space and not within bodies with gravity pulls they wouldn't need to constantly use fuel, they'd just go in a direction once they reach the speed they want. The chase itself is more of a plot hole but more so based on basic science and knowledge of space travel. Which Star Wars in general is full of those. Using existing technology in a new way is not a plot hole, and there are methods to counter this such as having a powerful enough shield or simply being too big for it to work. It'd make more sense for the CIS to use this since they could just have droid piloted ramming vessels, but again wouldn't work really in open space unless against people who are overconfident, stupid, or are tricked such as the First Order was. It might be useful against the Death Star 2(They didn't have capital ships to fight the Death Star 1). But the shield would destroy them, and a Super Star Destroyer crashed into the Death Star 2 and wasn't shown to do any damage at all. Ramming itself we've seen in Star Wars Rebels, in Revenge of the Sith, and in Rogue One. And Interdiction fields have been around for a long time in the old EU, and are in the new EU, I'm trying to remember if they're mentioned off hand in The Last Jedi and Rogue One, I think they might be but if they do they don't explain what it is just use the known Star Wars term for it. That's a field that prevents Hyperspace travel around it, they use it in Rebels and Tarkin so it is Disney canon from before The Last Jedi. And the term has been around for over 20 years. So more so a reference for old school Star Wars EU fans. But even tractor beams would prevent it, or just blowing them up. Again, she surprised them. She surprised everyone.

Simply not understanding something doesn't make said thing a plot hole automatically. Many things are actually explained within a story or aren't contradicted by the story. Things happening at the wrong times or contradicting each other is where a lot of plot holes come from.

I think more of a problem is that we basically don't know the political landscape outside of the books. The movies don't really explain what the New Republic is like or how it functions, or why they had one fleet that was all at Hosnian Prime and why when the planet blew up it destroyed the orbital fleet that didn't just fly away when they saw the giant death ball of energy coming. The desire for the Resistance to be the underdogs like the old Rebels doesn't really feel earned, like why isn't there a New Republic army around did they really have their entire army grounded on a single planet? Bloodlines explains more of the political landscape and how the Centrists defected and joined the First Order splitting the New Republic. But we don't really know how big in scale the First Order is, at times they're an unheard of military group, at others they control half the galaxy but seem to have like six ships to spare to defeat their only enemies? Books explain certain aspects better but people shouldn't have to read the books to make sense of the lack of information in the film.

I'd say The Last Jedi is one of the most narratively consistent and solid Star Wars films, and is the most innovative. You don't have to like the movie, but a lot of these things are explained in the films. Or are references to older Star Wars materials. But most are explained in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi or the Prequels or the Original Trilogy. The only real one people might not be able to understand is that gravity wells might exist. Otherwise it's film stuff.

[Deamonbane]

First of all, Finn was an engineer before being a storm trooper, with no battle experience, and it shows. Even though he too manages to shoot one tie fighter in the battle, there's no demonstration of anything more than the skill that comes with passive Storm Trooper training. Actual pilots are shown to be an elite class in their own right, requiring a lot more training since... duh, flying a ship requires more training than shooting a blaster. So... I'm starting to think that you haven't watched the film, because at no point does Rey ever say that she's flown the ship before. Her actual lines are, and I quote "I've flown some ships before, but I've never left the planet."

That's it. That's the extent of her training up until that point. At this point, she has no force training, no real abilities in fixing anything more than what she owns (her little speeder thing) and taking apart pretty much anything else and selling it for scrap. That's supposed to be the extent of her skill in flying and repairing. Secondly... I've noticed that you avoided talking about the instant mind trick, so I think you know what I'm talking about. No training, no previous experience with anything other than scrapping fallen star destroyers. And suddenly she's an ace pilot, beating down trained Tie fighter pilots (again, training and experience would should trump the fact that she has no training in combat flying, no experience in combat flying, and is flying a run-down smuggling freighter.). The Tie-Fighter pilots shouldn't have needed to be the best pilots in the galaxy to take that on.

The the point with Anakin (thanks for dropping the Obi-Wan point), who's had experience using his force powers, knows how to pilot and react under extreme circumstances, and relied on R2 and an auto-pilot for the majority of his fight, and Luke, who had force training, had experience in combat flying being able to use the force in a very one-dimensional battle in which he had a top-of-the-line fighter ship and the support R2 and Han and the rest of the rebel fighter fleet to help him. It's a matter of support, training and luck for both of them. Rey only has luck. There's a canon booklet that shows that Rey has some training with a flying simulator, but that wouldn't prepare her for the kind of high maneuvering situations that she pulls off in the film, again with an ageing decrepit smuggling freighter.

At no point in the film is it established that she's flown the Falcon before. All that is established is that she knows that Unkar Plutt did and that it puts too much stress on that hyperdrive. I mean, she's never flow off planet, but she knows the intricacies of hyperdrives? Sure, okay.


Rey has no light saber training. Her only melee combat experience is with a staff (I don't suppose that I need to explain the differences between a scrapper staff and a complex melee weapon like a light saber) against ruffians. And yet, going up against one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, who is still in full possession of most of his faculties (Again, this is the guy that stopped a bolt in mid air. I'm thinking he could have saved himself some of the damage, since that same bolt is shown to kill armored Stormtroopers earlier in the film) and the ability to fight would at least put him on even terms with someone who's had no force training and whose combat experience in minimal. But no. He's pounded like... insert appropriate sexual metaphor here.

In the throne room fight, again, Rey, this time with minimal force training and just as minimal combat experience, takes on 8 fighters. In fairness, Ren does most of the killing in that scene, and helps Rey with most of her combat while she's stuck to defending herself. What I meant, though, was this scene:

https://youtu.be/mSmOLPs91Uc

I have no idea who approved that cut of the film, but that's just atrocious. Rey should have been dead right then and there. Twice actually, since that second blade is poised right at her gut in the first move, and then should have been free to stab her in the back in the next move. There are other choreographic goofs that made what I thought was the coolest scene upon first viewing the most headache inducing.

Either way, I did read what you said, and I questioned it, pointing out various inconsistencies. Your inability to respond to them without repeating what you've already said isn't really my problem. Pointing out that Luke and Anakin are Marty Stus (while I disagree) as well doesn't change the argument. Rey is a Mary Sue, whether there are other characters in the universe that share similar traits or not.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that fuel thing that they pulled, thanks for reminding me.

I've laid out everything that I have to say about the hyperspace ram. Again, referring back to a book and a comic that are from the 70s (that's almost fifty years ago) that have since been rendered non-canon and requiring people to research that tiny bit all the way back when to explain a move that changes the course of the film is just bad writing. That's not consistent, it's not referencing. It's bad writing. That's it. I'd go into detail, but I think this guy carries my point a lot better. You'll find his observations regarding the hyperspace ram start around the 33rd minute.

https://youtu.be/LusPtkntQy8

I'd suggest that you watch that whole series too.

That pretty much encompasses all I have to say. It's just lazy writing, so that, along with all the plot points that I laid out in my previous post:

That added to the useless Finn and Rose romp to casino planet (that goes nowhere) the Poe vs. Holdo plot (That goes nowhere) the Finn sacrificing himself plot (which might have been a saving point for the film if Rose doesn't go in and almost kill him and herself to save him, so it goes nowhere), Rey's lack of training that doesn't do much more than provide exposition for Kylo's history, which also goes nowhere, since Kylo remains the same whiny, fit-prone emo that he was at the start of the film, the Last Jedi is full of a lot of padding and very little substance which is undermined by the plot holes and inconsistencies. That adds up to a bad film overall, in my book.

Edit: And let's not forget the useless opening bomber scene. That one actually annoyed me on my first viewing. Where the hell are you Y-Wing fighters that you see being used as bombers far more effectively in Rogue One.

Edit Edit: Oh, and the Leia floating through space scene too. That was just damn painful.

Let's throw the hyperspace tracking bullshit in there too. And the fact that Holdo is in there. The woman is a walking plot hole.

All empirically prove that the Last Jedi is not the most narratively consistent or solid of the Star Wars films. Oh, and there's no mention of the tactic anywhere outside the comic and a book that have since been rendered non-canon. All it proves really is that the writer/director was uncreative in writing himself out of the narrative corner that he was in, which in turn proves that it's not the most innovative either. These things aren't explained in the films (hey, Rey, how did you learn the Jedi Mind trick if you've only just met your first trained force user five minutes ago? And how do you lift a literal wall of rocks when even Luke stopped training you after your first session together when it took the same Luke a long time training with one of the greatest force users in history to even start lifting rocks? That's like showing Luke pulling the cave down on top of the ice monster in Empire Strikes back) and most aren't even references to anything Star Wars. It was all new and mostly terrible. It was Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy wanting to make something new and exciting with the Star Wars franchise by actively ignoring everything that has come before. What they did with Luke and Leia was an atrocity. What they did with Rose was an atrocity. Hell, what they didn't do with Captain Phasma and Snoke was an atrocity. Even the most innovative part of the film (showing that Rey's parents have nothing to do with who she is) was so poorly done that so many people think that they were actively ignoring the questions that J.J. Abrams started instead of building on it.

This is not a good movie. Not from a writing aspect, not from editing, and not from delivery. Most of the actors did the best they could with what they were given, and the visuals were pretty good, and so was the soundtrack, but that's it. If I want to see something like that, I'll watch a damned David Attenborough documentary.

So, yeah, like if if you want to. That's a matter of taste. But to hold it up against the likes of Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes back and say that it's better is where I draw a line in the sand.

[Tolvo]

First of all, Finn was an engineer before being a storm trooper, with no battle experience, and it shows. Even though he too manages to shoot one tie fighter in the battle, there's no demonstration of anything more than the skill that comes with passive Storm Trooper training. Actual pilots are shown to be an elite class in their own right, requiring a lot more training since... duh, flying a ship requires more training than shooting a blaster. So... I'm starting to think that you haven't watched the film, because at no point does Rey ever say that she's flown the ship before. Her actual lines are, and I quote "I've flown some ships before, but I've never left the planet."

That's it. That's the extent of her training up until that point. At this point, she has no force training, no real abilities in fixing anything more than what she owns (her little speeder thing) and taking apart pretty much anything else and selling it for scrap. That's supposed to be the extent of her skill in flying and repairing. Secondly... I've noticed that you avoided talking about the instant mind trick, so I think you know what I'm talking about. No training, no previous experience with anything other than scrapping fallen star destroyers. And suddenly she's an ace pilot, beating down trained Tie fighter pilots (again, training and experience would should trump the fact that she has no training in combat flying, no experience in combat flying, and is flying a run-down smuggling freighter.). The Tie-Fighter pilots shouldn't have needed to be the best pilots in the galaxy to take that on.

The the point with Anakin (thanks for dropping the Obi-Wan point), who's had experience using his force powers, knows how to pilot and react under extreme circumstances, and relied on R2 and an auto-pilot for the majority of his fight, and Luke, who had force training, had experience in combat flying being able to use the force in a very one-dimensional battle in which he had a top-of-the-line fighter ship and the support R2 and Han and the rest of the rebel fighter fleet to help him. It's a matter of support, training and luck for both of them. Rey only has luck. There's a canon booklet that shows that Rey has some training with a flying simulator, but that wouldn't prepare her for the kind of high maneuvering situations that she pulls off in the film, again with an ageing decrepit smuggling freighter.

At no point in the film is it established that she's flown the Falcon before. All that is established is that she knows that Unkar Plutt did and that it puts too much stress on that hyperdrive. I mean, she's never flow off planet, but she knows the intricacies of hyperdrives? Sure, okay.


Rey has no light saber training. Her only melee combat experience is with a staff (I don't suppose that I need to explain the differences between a scrapper staff and a complex melee weapon like a light saber) against ruffians. And yet, going up against one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, who is still in full possession of most of his faculties (Again, this is the guy that stopped a bolt in mid air. I'm thinking he could have saved himself some of the damage, since that same bolt is shown to kill armored Stormtroopers earlier in the film) and the ability to fight would at least put him on even terms with someone who's had no force training and whose combat experience in minimal. But no. He's pounded like... insert appropriate sexual metaphor here.

In the throne room fight, again, Rey, this time with minimal force training and just as minimal combat experience, takes on 8 fighters. In fairness, Ren does most of the killing in that scene, and helps Rey with most of her combat while she's stuck to defending herself. What I meant, though, was this scene:

https://youtu.be/mSmOLPs91Uc

I have no idea who approved that cut of the film, but that's just atrocious. Rey should have been dead right then and there. Twice actually, since that second blade is poised right at her gut in the first move, and then should have been free to stab her in the back in the next move. There are other choreographic goofs that made what I thought was the coolest scene upon first viewing the most headache inducing.

Either way, I did read what you said, and I questioned it, pointing out various inconsistencies. Your inability to respond to them without repeating what you've already said isn't really my problem. Pointing out that Luke and Anakin are Marty Stus (while I disagree) as well doesn't change the argument. Rey is a Mary Sue, whether there are other characters in the universe that share similar traits or not.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that fuel thing that they pulled, thanks for reminding me.

I've laid out everything that I have to say about the hyperspace ram. Again, referring back to a book and a comic that are from the 70s (that's almost fifty years ago) that have since been rendered non-canon and requiring people to research that tiny bit all the way back when to explain a move that changes the course of the film is just bad writing. That's not consistent, it's not referencing. It's bad writing. That's it. I'd go into detail, but I think this guy carries my point a lot better. You'll find his observations regarding the hyperspace ram start around the 33rd minute.

https://youtu.be/LusPtkntQy8

I'd suggest that you watch that whole series too.

That pretty much encompasses all I have to say. It's just lazy writing, so that, along with all the plot points that I laid out in my previous post:

Let's throw the hyperspace tracking bullshit in there too. And the fact that Holdo is in there. The woman is a walking plot hole.

All empirically prove that the Last Jedi is not the most narrative consistent or solid of the Star Wars films. Oh, and there's no mention of the tactic anywhere outside the comic and a book that have since been rendered non-canon. All it proves really is that the writer/director was uncreative in writing himself out of the narrative corner that he was in, which in turn proves that it's not the most innovative either. These things aren't explained in the films (hey, Rey, how did you learn the Jedi Mind trick if you've only just met your first trained force user five minutes ago? And how do you lift a literaly wall of rocks when even Luke stopped training you after your first session together?) and most aren't even references to anything Star Wars. It was all new and mostly terrible. It was Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy wanting to make something new and exciting with the Star Wars franchise by actively ignoring everything that has come before. What they did with Luke and Leia was an atrocity. What they did with Rose was an atrocity. Hell, what they didn't do with Captain Phasma and Snoke was an atrocity. Even the most innovative part of the film (showing that Rey's parents have nothing to do with who she is) was so poorly done that so many people think that they were actively ignoring the questions that J.J. Abrams started instead of building on it.

This is not a good movie. Not from a writing aspect, not from editing, and not from delivery. Most of the actors did the best they could with what they were given, and the visuals were pretty good, and so was the soundtrack, but that's it. If I want to see something like that, I'll watch a damned David Attenborough documentary.

So, yeah, like if if you want to. That's a matter of taste. But to hold it up against the likes of Revenge of the Sith and Empire Strikes back and say that it's better is where I draw a line in the sand.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Finn

Finn was a top scoring Storm Trooper cadet, they talk a lot about how well he did in training and how he is considered one of their best but cracked under pressure and disagreement with what he was seeing and deserted. He did used to clean things as well, as they mention in the film.

I never said she's flown the Falcon before, I said she's flown before. Again, something she says in the movie.

I also addressed the mind trick explicitly, meaning now I know you aren't reading my posts. Rey is not an ace pilot, Rey is a good pilot but not an ace, Poe is an ace. She also doesn't tend to outfly fully her TIE Fighter enemies but often relies on the environment such as on Jakku, which she lives on and what she's familiar with in old ships she has fully explored.

I didn't drop the Obi Wan point, you didn't read what I said so I stopped talking about it. I've mostly stopped responding to things when you aren't actually addressing what I said or reading what I said since there's nothing for me to respond to since you aren't really talking to me but at me. Pod racing is not the same as flying starships in battle, it is less close than flying ships in atmosphere on Jakku.

And again, why is it a problem for Rey to have luck and the aid of others like Chewbacca, but if Anakin with less experience at a younger age has the aid of R2 D2 and does way grander of things is fine? And are you saying the Millennium Falcon is not as good as a TIE Fighter? Considered one of the worst ships in any scifi setting? The new ones have shields but still go down really easy a lot.

You can know the intricacies of an engine on a vehicle you tend to without piloting the vehicle itself. Scottie in Star Trek is not exactly a perfect helmsman is he?

Rey also fights with the lightsaber in a similar way to her staff, such as against Ren. In the Last Jedi she trains with the lightsaber itself but also still is not as skilled with a blade as Ren.

I said that weapon vanishing was an error in the movie, why do you think I think it is not an error?

I've addressed a lot of these things, you've simply stated a lot of false things and lied about what I said. Gravity wells as I mentioned are Disney Canon. I said they were in Star Wars Rebels, and in Tarkin. Those are from the past 4 years, Rebels was the continuation of the Clone Wars show. And these aren't necessary to understand any of the things in the films, just are things that can make it more clear.

I've mentioned actual flaws in the movie and problems I have with it, I don't think it is perfect, but there's no reason for you to need to make things up like that. Either about the movie or me. As I said no one has to like the movie or think it is good, but saying things that are factually false is going to be misleading to others as you have been doing.

Please actually read anything I'm saying. I'm trying to be as patient and understanding as I can be but this honestly seems pretty aggressive from you. Please stop lying about me and stating things that anyone who scrolls up can see are completely false, or that you have yourself contradicted yourself on(Like Rey's flying). If this continues I will contact staff.

EDIT: So while I had the films up personally during this discussion, I managed to find some clips of the things about Rey. I couldn't share my own versions since well, it's illegal to and gifs or images won't actually be able to show a character said something, and would require people to actually watch the movies in question and certain scenes that were mentioned. But Rogue One and The Last Jedi people could bring up if they have Netflix since those are still on there. But not everyone has Netflix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbfqFA30pDA

In these clips there is the specific scenes I talk about, I hope this is alright to edit in as I said I'm not looking to argue further but this is for people reading later who might be confused. Rey in them shows she knows the layout of the Falcon, runs immediately to the cockpit and tells Finn where the turret is located without having to check. In the second clip Rey mentions it is her boss's ship and she knows all the changes he made to it already and has examined them and understood the problems with them and told her boss as such. She has been on the Falcon very clearly before. She calls it junk because she didn't realize it was special, something she changes her mind about later. Which is unsurprising given it has one of the best track records in all of Star Wars. She also has heard of the Falcon though didn't realize this was The Millennium Falcon and is just familiar with this type of ship. Finn also in the atmospheric battle has to keep giving orders to Rey to tell her what to do and she follows his orders.

[Deamonbane]

A. The Millenium Falcon is a smuggling freighter, not a fighter. In combat situations, it would be at a disadvantage (and if you're going to call up any of the scenes where it beats tie fighters, let's remember that they were being allowed to escape from the death star, they were running away from Tie Fighters the whole time during Empire, and in a pitched battle, where focus is dividing, a ship with shields and armor has an advantage).

B. From what I'm reading, Finn was a promising cadet, but in battle proved to be rather ineffective, as he breaks after his first actual combat experience. So... yeah, you said soldier, and held him as the highest standard, and ignored the fact that fighter pilots would require a lot more training and experience, so I'm not the one that's being dishonest with what is being said.

C. At no point in the films is Rey shown tinkering with the Falcon. As I look through the Wiki regarding her history, I can't see any mention that she tinkered with the Falcon. So, again, that's you being dishonest with the narrative. I may have misread you comment about her flying the falcon, but the fact remains that her only experience is flying a couple of ships without even leaving the planet and a couple of simulators. That falls well short of say Anakin's skills.

D. At no point after I laid my argument about Obi-Wan vs. Maul did you mention it again, so I'm forced to assume that you dropped the point. I'm sorry if that wasn't the case. I also have no idea what Gravity Wells have to do with anything. Like with the Hyperspace rings, you're bringing up points that have nothing to do with what we're talking about and then getting angry when I ignore them?

E. At no point did you explicitly address this scene, which is what I mean by Jedi Mind Trick, since that's what Jedi Mind Trick is.

https://youtu.be/cNy-cDkC4xs

Edit: As I reread, you did address it in a throwaway comment about Jedi Mind tricks being extremely easy to use. Despite how wrong that statement is, I do apologize for overlooking it.

F. The fact that she was able to fly a larger, heavier ship that hadn't been flown in years better than trained pilots could handle their smaller, more maneuverable fighters makes her an Ace fighter. And again, she's said she's flown before, but nothing I've seen in her wiki says anything about combat flying, which is what she's doing. Simulations could have prepared her for that (which in fairness does make her more prepared to fly something than Luke) but then Luke at no point is shown performing maneuvers on the same scale as she does. Also, how an action impacts the large picture of a film does not change the amount of skill involved, and while what Luke's and Anakin's actions were pivotal, very little skill was involved, comparatively speaking.

F. I made my points as clearly an as concisely as they could have been made. I showed no aggressiveness in making them, and at no point have I lied about you or stated anything that anyone who scrolls up can see are completely false. I misread a few things that you said, but you have done the same, and my points still stand regardless. I have no interesting in continuing a debate with someone who's first instinct is to threaten with reporting to staff as soon as they run out of points to make, so I'll cut my time here short.

I'm glad you enjoyed the Last Jedi.

[Tolvo]

Well I explained the Rey parts, if you don't want to read what I said you don't have to but I'd just be repeating the parts where Rey in the Force Awakens states that she's been on the Falcon, since her boss owned it and that she's tinkered with it and, that she has flown before which she mentions, and that she spends all her free time in simulations which she states and we see her simulation programs and terminals in her house. I might suggest rewatching these movies. Rey had far more experience explicitly than Luke or Anakin prior to the events where they show off their skills, and Rey still doesn't show off as grand of moments.

Like do you think TIE fighter pilots are the best in the galaxy? It is established First Order troops and pilots are better than the old Empire, but still can be pretty bad. Finn is considered to be one of their best soldiers for example. Rey being a Mary Sue I'd find to be heavily up for debate unless again most other Star Wars heroes are too. Anakin is part of a prophecy even. To be frank Anakin and Luke are way more of tropes.

For the fight in the throne room, it is two skilled force users with lightsabers against a group of highly skilled warriors without lightsabers and without the force. Rey alone could not take them on, her and Ren combined barely did, and had the advantage of lightsabers and the Force. Though yes there is a technical error in that scene. Star Wars films have many of those. Ren alone probably couldn't beat them either and needed help.

I'm not sure why it's ok that Anakin and Luke were untrained but had mentors and luck, but Rey being experienced and having mentors and luck is not ok. Luke and Anakin are not established to have as much skill originally as Rey does. Anakin by Attack of the Clones is a trained fighter and experienced pilot, and Luke by Return of the Jedi is a fledgling Jedi, but they also do way grander of things. Rey has defeated TIE Fighters, has beaten a severely injured guy who wasn't trying to kill her, has defeated guards with the help of a far more skilled warrior while they both had the Force and their enemies didn't, and she lifted a bunch of rocks which she'd been training to do for a while. Mind tricks aren't established to be super hard, many characters use them with a flick of the wrist no concentration at all and Luke can use it in Return of the Jedi without being told how to do it. And Rey was told about the ability, and used it on a simple Storm Trooper.

The Hyperspace ram is not a plot hole, a plot hole would be the way fuel and propulsion works in The Last Jedi, since they're in open space and not within bodies with gravity pulls they wouldn't need to constantly use fuel, they'd just go in a direction once they reach the speed they want. The chase itself is more of a plot hole but more so based on basic science and knowledge of space travel. Which Star Wars in general is full of those. Using existing technology in a new way is not a plot hole, and there are methods to counter this such as having a powerful enough shield or simply being too big for it to work. It'd make more sense for the CIS to use this since they could just have droid piloted ramming vessels, but again wouldn't work really in open space unless against people who are overconfident, stupid, or are tricked such as the First Order was. It might be useful against the Death Star 2(They didn't have capital ships to fight the Death Star 1). But the shield would destroy them, and a Super Star Destroyer crashed into the Death Star 2 and wasn't shown to do any damage at all. Ramming itself we've seen in Star Wars Rebels, in Revenge of the Sith, and in Rogue One. And Interdiction fields have been around for a long time in the old EU, and are in the new EU, I'm trying to remember if they're mentioned off hand in The Last Jedi and Rogue One, I think they might be but if they do they don't explain what it is just use the known Star Wars term for it. That's a field that prevents Hyperspace travel around it, they use it in Rebels and Tarkin so it is Disney canon from before The Last Jedi. And the term has been around for over 20 years. So more so a reference for old school Star Wars EU fans. But even tractor beams would prevent it, or just blowing them up. Again, she surprised them. She surprised everyone.

Simply not understanding something doesn't make said thing a plot hole automatically. Many things are actually explained within a story or aren't contradicted by the story. Things happening at the wrong times or contradicting each other is where a lot of plot holes come from.

I think more of a problem is that we basically don't know the political landscape outside of the books. The movies don't really explain what the New Republic is like or how it functions, or why they had one fleet that was all at Hosnian Prime and why when the planet blew up it destroyed the orbital fleet that didn't just fly away when they saw the giant death ball of energy coming. The desire for the Resistance to be the underdogs like the old Rebels doesn't really feel earned, like why isn't there a New Republic army around did they really have their entire army grounded on a single planet? Bloodlines explains more of the political landscape and how the Centrists defected and joined the First Order splitting the New Republic. But we don't really know how big in scale the First Order is, at times they're an unheard of military group, at others they control half the galaxy but seem to have like six ships to spare to defeat their only enemies? Books explain certain aspects better but people shouldn't have to read the books to make sense of the lack of information in the film.

I'd say The Last Jedi is one of the most narratively consistent and solid Star Wars films, and is the most innovative. You don't have to like the movie, but a lot of these things are explained in the films. Or are references to older Star Wars materials. But most are explained in The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi or the Prequels or the Original Trilogy. The only real one people might not be able to understand is that gravity wells might exist. Otherwise it's film stuff.

Again you aren't reading my posts and are lying about me. You are lying about the content of the film as well and claiming that you have objective views about things that are highly subjective. Since you refuse to address the things I say or even read them and continue to lie, I'm going to stop responding.

[Deamonbane]

I edited my post and apologized. The rest of my posts and points remain unaddressed, though, so that's on you.

I'm glad you enjoyed the Last Jedi.

[Tolvo]

For the OP, are we supposed to discuss sequels only? I was wondering if you meant specifically the new trilogy or if the new movies in general are allowed too. I did recently watch Solo which I thought was fine and I adore Rogue One but those are technically prequels.

[Fierbali111]

I really liked rogue one minus maybe one or two small parts. I thought they should have made felicity Jones look a bit rougher around the edges as she was an imperial prisoner and basically an outlaw before then.

The Han solo movie had some moments, but for the most part bombed really hard. I found that they turned Han into a goofball, something i felt he never was in the original trilogy.

Then of course there was that bad guy(girl) that led that gang known as the cloud riders. When she took off the mask i was expecting an imposing Brianne of tarth sort of character but instead had a skinny 14 year old who was previously in the ice train scene physically overpowering Beckett, something that felt really off. Then when the rest of the imposing gang took of their helmets they turned out to be a band of forgotten misfits instead of the dangerous killers they were lead out to be, killers that stop killing as soon as they join Han's side.

Then of course there was the least subtle darth maul reveal of all time, you see his outline, then his face, then he uses the force, then he turns on his double bladed lightsaber. Jeez, i think i can get it.

[Azuresun]

My personal thoughts on the sequels, which went rambling on a bit longer than I intended them to once I got thinking--

For me, TFA was good but not mindblowing. It felt like it was playing too safe and copying the original trilogy too closely (a droid carrying critical information comes into the hands of a desert-dwelling scavenger, who teams up with Han Solo to deliver it to rebel HQ, then there's a big battle against a planet-wrecking superweapon and a masked Sith who killed the mentor figure). The prequels were very flawed, but they were at least trying to do new things with the universe. Rey....I can't think of much to say about her other than "she's strong", she felt like everyone's first original character in the Star Wars setting.  ;)

TLJ, I would describe as frustrating. It's interesting, in that it feels like the film was trying to do something radical, but it doesn't quite work. A lot of the plot twists and developments in the story could be followed with "....but it doesn't really matter."--at least not within the movie itself, there might be payoff later. Finn and Rose go to the casino planet to get aid, but it doesn't really matter. Poe attempts a mutiny, but it doesn't really matter. There's a big space battle in the opening, but it doesn't really matter. There's a homage to the AT-AT scene in ESB, but it doesn't really matter. Luke confronts Ren, but it doesn't really matter. The rebellion survives, but it doesn't really seem to matter when it's like ten people in one ship against Empire 2.0.

As well as that, the pacing felt really bad. The casino planet arc added very little to the film for its length other than "give Poe something to do", and the landspeeder battle at the end added nothing other than "Hey, wasn't it cool when we did this in ESB?", and the mutiny subplot should have been dealt with in five minutes  but was needlessly dragged out for fake tension. And there's also the questions inherited from TFA and still unanswered--where the hell did the First Order come from, and how did they get so powerful? Where did Snoke come from, and why is he such a big deal? Yes, there's probably a 5-part EU series that addresses that, but it would have taken maybe five combined minutes of exposition in the movies to address the questions. You can't tell me that they were worried about the running time!

But I don't hate the movie. There's a lot of stuff in there that genuinely impressed me. The visuals are gorgeous, and the environments really creative. I'd watch an entire movie of Luke as the grumpy old mentor, and the scene with Yoda really worked for me--a reminder that trying to recreate the old Jedi Order that Anakin tore down was misguided. I even liked the idea of Rose, if not the execution--that the SW universe is a place where any random everyman can become a hero if they step up at the right moment. I actually liked the idea that Rey is just a random person rather than the Chosen One--it made for a good moment when she was ready to see anything in the visions, but wasn't ready to see nothing.

Especially, I loved Ren's arc. At first he seems like a whiny Darth Vader fanboy, but intentionaly so, and I liked that he ends up exceeding Vader in some ways (he outsmarts and usurps his master, as a true Sith should). And he feels like the only Sith character in the movies who really comes across as drawing their strength from anger. He's a really good villain....I just hope the films remember he is a villain and doesn't go for a redemption plot to appease the fangirls.

Overall, the impression I had was that the film is what you get when someone tries to deconstruct a setting, but doesn't really have an idea how to put it back together. So too much of the story just comes across as a collection of random events that don't amount to much (not helped by the aforementioned padding) and amount to "things just get suckier and there's no real way back". I kind of want to see where it goes next--if TLJ was part of an overall arc that's going somewhere, or if the third movie will be mostly trying to do emergency repairs on the universe and story.

[Tolvo]

I don't think a lot of those scenes don't matter, but they a lot of them aren't strategically relevant. Many of them are not things that heavily impact the battles but are instead about giving characters their motivations and developing them. The Casino is to flesh out Rose more and teach Finn about the galaxy since as a Storm Trooper of the First Order he knows next to nothing about it. In the films they mention most First Order Storm Troopers are taken as babies and raised entirely within the First Order and only know what they're told and like Finn was in Force Awakens most have never even been in a battle(The Force Awakens is the very start of the First Order entering open conflict but they talk like skirmishes have happened before) and the few who have killed enemies more so just have gunned down unarmed civilians. Finn basically doesn't fully understand the stakes of the war or why everything is happening and how people can let these things happen, and the Casino also shows a bit of how the First Order did happen is greed, lots of people sell weapons to the First Order and have military contracts for them.

Though like I said, they really should explain the state of the galaxy more in the movies, the Casino arc partially does but it's still very little. Books explain the rise of the First Order but that should really be mentioned in the movies. Snoke's backstory I don't care too much about because how he got into that position doesn't really matter just that he is in that position(Or was). But stuff like even remotely any knowledge about the New Republic or the First Order and what is actually at stake and how the First Order is even this powerful and do they have borders, conquered planets, a government? Or are they just a paramilitary group and basically no one in the galaxy had an army but the New Republic and the Resistance and the New Republic had theirs grounded including the navy on a single planet that blew up?

The mutiny is again all about developing Poe as a character, but it is true they could have made a lot of these arcs shorter.

The salt planet scene is ok to me, not super great just like alright. It's mostly for the visuals and call backs and as a desperate last act to buy time. I do really enjoy the part though where a soldier picks up the salt on the ground, licks it, and goes "Salt!" Because that's just for the audience because they thought people couldn't tell and would think it was snow like on Hoth. And they were right from what I've personally seen many people needed that line to understand it was a salt planet.

I don't really mind the kiss with Rose and Finn, I don't think it was entirely necessary but I don't think it was terrible or anything. But I do think it was shot really weird, like they do it at a very awkward angle and I can understand not wanting a glamorous kiss in the midst of a battle after an attempt at suicide(Which the point of that was that you need to live to fight again and better the future, don't kill yourself as a pointless grand gesture now) but it just looks kind of weird and uncomfortable for them.

Luke vs Ren was just to distract him and defeat Ren ideologically and make him off kilter, he was really buying time for the others to escape.

And yeah I do like what they've done with Ren a lot, but I really hope they don't try to redeem him or make it a romantic story that's my biggest worry for the next movie because Star Wars likes to force that stuff pretty often. Darth Vader's redemption still seems really ridiculous to me(yeah I supported genocides and killed thousands personally and helped blow up planets, but I stopped my boss from killing my son. Thus, I am redeemed).

[Blythe]

Just as a note: we've had Star Wars threads before that have often become incredibly heated or uncivil--Staff knows this is a subject people are very passionate about, so we understand tempers can run high. That is natural when there's a subject people love so much and have so many disparate opinions about. But please step away from the keyboard or take a break from the thread if feeling frustrated rather than let tempers flare. Thank you.

[Tolvo]

Just as a note: we've had Star Wars threads before that have often become incredibly heated or uncivil--Staff knows this is a subject people are very passionate about, so we understand tempers can run high. That is natural when there's a subject people love so much and have so many disparate opinions about. But please step away from the keyboard or take a break from the thread if feeling frustrated rather than let tempers flare. Thank you.

Thank you Bly.

[RedRose]

My first thought when I'm asked is: like it or not this is what we have… and I love Star Wars so I'm happy it's there.

That said, there are many things I hate, and I hope they won't destroy good characters with a (badly done, cheesy-ish) redemption arc, or by turning them into (only) comic relief. Or on contrary, by making them COMPLETELY unrelatable and inhuman. Both Kylo and Hux are at risk mostly. Rey is another problem. She needs to be more… less… It was addressed above :D

But, it could always be worse. They could clone Jar Jar, and release an army of it onto the world.

[Tolvo]

Well Kylo Ren does mention after seeing how terrible First Order soldiers and pilots are(Most have not seen any battle prior to Force Awakens and like Finn are basically just Virtual Reality trained with some sparring) that he was considering making a Clone Army. The First Order's new Gungan clone army could be a reality. :P

I think Ren is one of the most relatable Star Wars villains we've seen on screen, I think he's pretty irredeemable but also still is like a person just a very bad one. He isn't all knowing just evil because he was always evil, Darth Vader did have moments of this between him and Luke and I think it's just a problem of it being a product of its time and the OT being made when they were still figuring out Star Wars. But Ren seems more like the type of person you meet, many people I have met. Technically he could just stop doing all this crap but wants it to continue. Hux is pretty comic relief at this point I don't know if he really has much of an edge left to him anymore unless he betrays Ren and he might end up like Starscream typically did in Transformers.

[RedRose]

Agree about Hux. Maybe he decided it just wasn't worth being serious rofl. Too bad though. Fun is fun, but I like a good villain.

Kylo I can see them wanting him to repent and go back crying to mom/Rey/Chewie (lol). Hope not. I'm not against redemption at all. Darth Vader's one was good, because he was always into his family and the emperor betrayed him. But please, no Kylo decides to go nice again so he can marry Rey. Dark Rey (or even just ambivalent) would be fascinating, but I'm not holding my breath

[Tolvo]

Kylo Ren I hope basically gets a last chance and is promised redemption and forgiveness, and spits in the face of the offer and tries to destroy everyone one last time. It seems more in line with his character to never learn, and that he's utterly destructive and can't even conceive of redemption for himself or going back on anything he's done. Though we still do get the hints like him being unable to kill his mother and letting his wing mate do it(Attempt to at least). But he strikes me as so far gone and without anyone for him to basically defeat to redeem himself it'd be a very hard arc unless some new more powerful villain is introduced just to give Ren a way to kill himself while saving others to redeem himself. Right now he isn't Darth Vader, he's Palpatine. He's at the top and is self centered and wants what he wants and he'll destroy anything that challenges him.

[TheGlyphstone]

I liked TFA. It was almost scene-for-scene an updated remake of ANH, but it did it well enough to still be enjoyable. It mashed my nostalgia buttons solidly enough that it was fun for all of its play-it-safe lack of originality.

TLJ...didnt'. There was a good movie inside it, there were several good movies inside it. But as others have said, the pacing of the movie was incredibly inconsistent to me. You had three seemingly separate and unrelated plotlines moving at different paces but still resolving at the same time:
1) The tense chase scene - suddenly inventing 'space gas' as a tension-building plot device was silly, but tolerably slow. But it was a high-tension subplot with a very specific and limited time limit, like seventeen hours IIRC.
2) The utterly irrelevant casino planet. If there was anything I can think of there that actually mattered, it was Rey handing the slave kid her emblem so he could be holding it at the end of the movie before TK-ing his broom. But the entire rest of the scene was long, flashy, and didn't contribute anything to the narrative; at the end they were in exactly the same situation as if they had never even left. And it felt like it lasted for a long time, at least long enough for them to spend hours locked up in jail.
3) Rey trying to get Luke to train her. This was the worst of the pacing problems. If that scene didn't last for weeks, it should have been days at minimum. At the very minimum we know it lasted overnight because of Chewbacca snacking on a Porg, which forces a tremendous amount of characterization flip-flopping and actual activity into a handful of hours the next day.

Trying to weave those three subplots together with massively different tonal pacing strained my limits of credulity far more than hyperspace ramming nonsense, crude gravity bombers replacing B-Wings/Y-Wings, or Poe not being shot for mutiny in the face of the enemy. (But really, opening the movie with an extended Yo Momma joke was an awful, awful decision that destroyed the mood of that scene.)

I also got a distinct sense that Johnson was more concerned with burning down Abram's trademark mystery boxes than he was in really innovating anything of his own? Rey's unknown parentage? Doesn't matter they were literal nobodies who sold her for drug money. The origins of Snoke? Doesn't matter he gets murderchopped (admittedly a scene done well). There was clearly no communication between the two directors in the interests of forging a coherent story from Part 1 to Part 2, and it shows.

On Ren: I enjoyed him in TFA. Abrams knew that no matter how well he made his new evil force user, they would inevitably be considered against/compared to Darth Vader, an impossible level to match. So he went hole-hog, embraced the inevitability, and created a wannabe Darth Vader in-universe; someone mocked by everyone around him and strugging to achieve an impossible ideal. It was brilliantly meta, and presented a good picture of someone still sliding down the Dark Side slope against their instincts. Ren in TLJ completely failed to follow through on that - his point of no return was murdering his father, and in TFA he knew it. In TLJ Johnson wound back his character development and tried to do the same thing again with Leia, in addition to spending 2/3 of the movie teasing a romantic link between him and Rey only to unceremoniously dump it as Snoke's Big Plan. When Ren goes whole hog EEEEEEVIL, it strips away what was left of his interesting characterization and leaves him exactly what he feared he was in the beginning, a weak and inferior Darth Vader imitation.

[Deamonbane]

I liked TFA. It was almost scene-for-scene an updated remake of ANH, but it did it well enough to still be enjoyable. It mashed my nostalgia buttons solidly enough that it was fun for all of its play-it-safe lack of originality.

TLJ...didnt'. There was a good movie inside it, there were several good movies inside it. But as others have said, the pacing of the movie was incredibly inconsistent to me. You had three seemingly separate and unrelated plotlines moving at different paces but still resolving at the same time:
1) The tense chase scene - suddenly inventing 'space gas' as a tension-building plot device was silly, but tolerably slow. But it was a high-tension subplot with a very specific and limited time limit, like seventeen hours IIRC.
2) The utterly irrelevant casino planet. If there was anything I can think of there that actually mattered, it was Rey handing the slave kid her emblem so he could be holding it at the end of the movie before TK-ing his broom. But the entire rest of the scene was long, flashy, and didn't contribute anything to the narrative; at the end they were in exactly the same situation as if they had never even left. And it felt like it lasted for a long time, at least long enough for them to spend hours locked up in jail.
3) Rey trying to get Luke to train her. This was the worst of the pacing problems. If that scene didn't last for weeks, it should have been days at minimum. At the very minimum we know it lasted overnight because of Chewbacca snacking on a Porg, which forces a tremendous amount of characterization flip-flopping and actual activity into a handful of hours the next day.

Trying to weave those three subplots together with massively different tonal pacing strained my limits of credulity far more than hyperspace ramming nonsense, crude gravity bombers replacing B-Wings/Y-Wings, or Poe not being shot for mutiny in the face of the enemy. (But really, opening the movie with an extended Yo Momma joke was an awful, awful decision that destroyed the mood of that scene.)

I also got a distinct sense that Johnson was more concerned with burning down Abram's trademark mystery boxes than he was in really innovating anything of his own? Rey's unknown parentage? Doesn't matter they were literal nobodies who sold her for drug money. The origins of Snoke? Doesn't matter he gets murderchopped (admittedly a scene done well). There was clearly no communication between the two directors in the interests of forging a coherent story from Part 1 to Part 2, and it shows.

On Ren: I enjoyed him in TFA. Abrams knew that no matter how well he made his new evil force user, they would inevitably be considered against/compared to Darth Vader, an impossible level to match. So he went hole-hog, embraced the inevitability, and created a wannabe Darth Vader in-universe; someone mocked by everyone around him and strugging to achieve an impossible ideal. It was brilliantly meta, and presented a good picture of someone still sliding down the Dark Side slope against their instincts. Ren in TLJ completely failed to follow through on that - his point of no return was murdering his father, and in TFA he knew it. In TLJ Johnson wound back his character development and tried to do the same thing again with Leia, in addition to spending 2/3 of the movie teasing a romantic link between him and Rey only to unceremoniously dump it as Snoke's Big Plan. When Ren goes whole hog EEEEEEVIL, it strips away what was left of his interesting characterization and leaves him exactly what he feared he was in the beginning, a weak and inferior Darth Vader imitation.

[TheGlyphstone]

Re-reading my own quote, that's 'tolerably so, not slow. Star Wars ships have always given the middle finger to Newton when they're not pretending to be atmospheric craft, so 'space gas' that runs out and immediately causes a ship to lose all its velocity is right in line with the universe's pseudo-physics.

[RedRose]

He probably can't kill his mother. It's good, keeps him human. I really really really hope they won't go the "Snoke brainwashed him poor him" road and blame Han's death on that. Even though yes, Snoke brainwashed him.

I've read a potential spoiler.

sucky spoiler

The First Order and the resistance need to ally against a more powerful and more deadly enemy. It could be interesting and yet… lame. Because it will make Kylo and/or Hux not "really" the enemy anymore, and hence easier to redeem/marry/whatever.

I'd pay to see Rey with Kylo despite his "issues" ;)

[Azuresun]

Kylo I can see them wanting him to repent and go back crying to mom/Rey/Chewie (lol). Hope not. I'm not against redemption at all. Darth Vader's one was good, because he was always into his family and the emperor betrayed him.

It's a tangent, but one thing I think the prequels did right is that they greatly deepen Vader's arc in the original trilogy. When Anakin believes he's responsible for the death of his wife and children, that's what breaks him. The atrocities he committed and people he betrayed to secure their safety turned out to be for nothing, and all he can do is cling to the role of Palpatine's enforcer to give his wretched existence some meaning. But then he finds out that his children survived--and pretty much from that moment, Palpatine's power over him is broken.

[TheGlyphstone]

He probably can't kill his mother. It's good, keeps him human. I really really really hope they won't go the "Snoke brainwashed him poor him" road and blame Han's death on that. Even though yes, Snoke brainwashed him.

I've read a potential spoiler.

sucky spoiler

The First Order and the resistance need to ally against a more powerful and more deadly enemy. It could be interesting and yet… lame. Because it will make Kylo and/or Hux not "really" the enemy anymore, and hence easier to redeem/marry/whatever.

I'd pay to see Rey with Kylo despite his "issues" ;)

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

If they try to adapt the Yuzan Vong arc into one movie, that will be my last gasp of support for SW.

[Deamonbane]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Grysk

There is some reason for hope, anyways.

[Tolvo]

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

If they try to adapt the Yuzan Vong arc into one movie, that will be my last gasp of support for SW.

Well the Yuuzhan Vong are back as the Grysk, though they don't appear to be Force Immune anymore or have their biotechnology. Not totally surprising given Thrawn returned and the Vong are his motivation for everything in the Thrawn Trilogy and Outbound Flight. But this version doesn't seem to be an all powerful extra-galactic military force like they were. But it might still only be a small scouting party of them that we've seen, like how they were originally introduced. Though I feel they want to have an ending to the arc of Rey and Ren and not just start an entire new plot thread to handle in another trilogy so I doubt it, but also it's not impossible. The First Order did come from the Unknown Regions.

[Fierbali111]

It would have been really nice and new if Rey went to the dark side or was at least more ambivalent, it would definitely leave me wondering at every moment what would happen next but i think Disney is dead set on keeping her pure paragon. I think JJ abrams also has his work cut out for him to try and make the 3rd act interesting and new.

[TheGlyphstone]

It would have been really nice and new if Rey went to the dark side or was at least more ambivalent, it would definitely leave me wondering at every moment what would happen next but i think Disney is dead set on keeping her pure paragon. I think JJ abrams also has his work cut out for him to try and make the 3rd act interesting and new.

That's one of my biggest wish-it-would-have-beens for this trilogy. At the end of TFA it looked almost plausible - Kylo was shattered and broken by forcing himself to kill Han, and Rey visibly tapped into the Dark Side when confronting him during their final fight. A second-act movie that flipped expectations and turned what looked like Rey's Hero Journey into a Start of Darkness, simultaneous with Kylo's struggle back to the Light Side, would be an alternate universe TLJ I'd love to see.

[Tolvo]

It would have been really nice and new if Rey went to the dark side or was at least more ambivalent, it would definitely leave me wondering at every moment what would happen next but i think Disney is dead set on keeping her pure paragon. I think JJ abrams also has his work cut out for him to try and make the 3rd act interesting and new.

They might be hesitant to do that since Anakin already was the hero who went evil(Though it's arguable that he really was a good person in the first place), and due to fan backlash, because that'd piss a lot of people off and the stories like that in the EU(Jacen Solo, Luke's false serving the Empire) are generally reviled by a lot of fans who read them or know of them. And Luke already momentarily gave in to anger in Jedi. Star Wars also often likes to be pretty black and white regarding good and evil in the movies. And Rey has had her moments of temptation of the Dark Side, regarding her parents, the lightsaber, Ren.

[TheGlyphstone]

Well the Yuuzhan Vong are back as the Grysk, though they don't appear to be Force Immune anymore or have their biotechnology. Not totally surprising given Thrawn returned and the Vong are his motivation for everything in the Thrawn Trilogy and Outbound Flight. But this version doesn't seem to be an all powerful extra-galactic military force like they were. But it might still only be a small scouting party of them that we've seen, like how they were originally introduced. Though I feel they want to have an ending to the arc of Rey and Ren and not just start an entire new plot thread to handle in another trilogy so I doubt it, but also it's not impossible. The First Order did come from the Unknown Regions.

Missed this.

If you take away the force immunity and freaky biotech...what's left of the Yuuzhan Vong other than being Proud Warrior Race #132345?

[Deamonbane]

Having Rey be a real Grey Jedi would be an interesting twist. If she's the last Jedi, having her guide it beyond simple parameters as light and dark would be an interesting story-telling twist.

[Tolvo]

Missed this.

If you take away the force immunity and freaky biotech...what's left of the Yuuzhan Vong other than being Proud Warrior Race #132345?

Well we don't know if they still have their religion or aspects of it. But yeah they're not really the same anymore. They have some concepts still like their powerful armor, and new things and still look the same, but they are much more standard and less interesting now to me. I'd rather they just made them less powerful but kept the biotechnology and stuff. It was a really interesting culture far more alien than what we often see in Star Wars. Which I wish we had more of in Star Wars.

[TheGlyphstone]

Having Rey be a real Grey Jedi would be an interesting twist. If she's the last Jedi, having her guide it beyond simple parameters as light and dark would be an interesting story-telling twist.

That was the other alt-universe TLJ I was hoping for, especially with how the Trailers Lied - a story that was indeed about The Last Jedi, and The Last Sith - Kylo and Ray both/together abandoning the teachings of their respective traditions and trying to forge something new outside the parameters of Dark and Light.

[Tolvo]

Note: Kylo Ren and Snoke aren't Sith at all. They're Dark Side but not Sith. Vader and Sidious currently are considered the last Sith unless they introduce some new secret Sith. They mention they aren't Sith and Snoke thinks the Sith were limited in thinking. Though Kylo may try to claim he is Sith now that he's in charge he actually doesn't know any of their teachings and wasn't taught by a Sith but he does want to be the heir to Vader.

[TheGlyphstone]

Note: Kylo Ren and Snoke aren't Sith at all. They're Dark Side but not Sith. Vader and Sidious currently are considered the last Sith unless they introduce some new secret Sith. They mention they aren't Sith and Snoke thinks the Sith were limited in thinking. Though Kylo may try to claim he is Sith now that he's in charge he actually doesn't know any of their teachings and wasn't taught by a Sith but he does want to be the heir to Vader.

Technically, yeah. But the whole idea of Dark Side force users who aren't Sith is a relic of the Legends-verse that I'm not sure Disney bothered to carry through...are the Witches of Dathomir re-canonized yet?

[Deamonbane]

Witches of Dathomir appear in the Clone Wars animated series.

And... well, we really don't know if Snoke was a Sith Lord or not. Don't know much of anything about him, really.

Edit: Turns out they updated his wiki since I last saw it. Yep, not affiliated to the Sith. :)

[Tolvo]

Witches of Dathomir show up in Clone Wars, when Darth Maul returns and his brother Savage Opress is introduced, that was before Disney. Sidious and Grievous kill all that we know of(Though likely some escaped). And their ghost queen mother is killed. Darth Maul goes on to lead the black sun(Which is now canon) and then goes on to rule Mandalore(Until being deposed) and eventually shows up in Rebels, then of course had his recent appearance.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

He shows up in Solo as the evil leader of the organizations.

Technically Abeloth is loosely canon since she is mentioned in by the Celestials, gods of the Force, in the Clone Wars show which we know now is film canon. They reference her as "The Mother" as she was the mother in the family in the EU. But I hope Abeloth won't return under Disney and they'll forget Lucas let Abeloth get mentioned. Since Clone Wars had Lucas family working on it and writing for it and he approved a lot of it and got involved at times(Such as making the Mandalorian vibrosword a form of lightsaber instead since he didn't want to show a lightsaber hit something and not cut it. Despite him already showing that with the Magna Guard and Electrostaffs in Revenge of the Sith which block lightsabers), and Clone Wars did feature Darth Revan in the final episode though he was cut, but they do reference KOTOR in Rebels(Malachor shows up and an unnamed Sith Holocron voiced by a female Sith Lord found on Malachor that acts like Kreia).

Them not being Sith is again in the movies and books, canonically they aren't Sith. Though they don't use terms like Dark Jedi or Gray Jedi, which Snoke would fall under Dark Jedi and Ren Gray Jedi(They mention he has the light side and that Snoke feels it is important that Ren have both light and dark in him) but Ren mostly shows off dark side abilities and things, with personal moments with Rey and Leia that show more of his light side. Snoke though does know the teachings of the Sith in the books but rejects them, in the movies he just talks about how he thinks the Sith were failures.

[TheGlyphstone]

Apparently Sith got backstory in some random tie-in novel?

Either way, rephrase it then. The Last Jedi is Luke, and The Last Sith is Vader.  Their respective students/heirs rejecting the traditions, teachings, and baggage of both Orders and forging a new Grey tradition instead. Kylo has hints of Light in his Dark, and Rey taps the Dark at times to fuel her Light, it could have been real.

It'll never happen, but I can imagine it did somewhen.

[Tolvo]

Well The Last Jedi sets up what you are asking for, but I doubt the next movie will deliver on it. As The Last Jedi is about how the Jedi Order failed and that Rey should learn from them but forge and entire new philosophy and not just continue a tradition that led to the rise of the Sith and the Empire. Ren wants to set up his own tradition as well though whether it would be based on Snoke's teachings, the Sith, or his own new one is not explicit. Rey already has rejected a lot of the teachings of the Jedi, and a part of the Last Jedi is about how new generations need to forge themselves rather than just keeping up traditions and that bloodlines and nobility are less important than who you are as a person. With Ren putting too much focus on his bloodline and believing in genetic superiority(Similar to the Empire, as well with his mentions of desiring a clone army) and Rey learning who your parents are doesn't make who you are and taking a more anti-Eugenics anti-Nobility stance.

But I doubt the next movie will follow through on what the Last Jedi set up. Abrams doesn't tend to do stuff like that he usually likes to play it pretty safe.

[Deamonbane]

No, Disney doesn't have the balls to go with a morally ambiguous tone in their films.

Good guys win and are happy. Bad guys lose and are angry and emo about it. Leave openings for potential sequels.

Though in my somewhen, there is Mara Jade and Thrawn in a live action film of their own.

[Tolvo]

Apparently Sith got backstory in some random tie-in novel?

Either way, rephrase it then. The Last Jedi is Luke, and The Last Sith is Vader.  Their respective students/heirs rejecting the traditions, teachings, and baggage of both Orders and forging a new Grey tradition instead. Kylo has hints of Light in his Dark, and Rey taps the Dark at times to fuel her Light, it could have been real.

It'll never happen, but I can imagine it did somewhen.

Oh I just realized did you mean Snoke got a backstory?

If so, I'm unsure if there is still much known. For a while we knew he was around during the Clone Wars and that he stayed out of the spotlight. And that he does know Sith teachings but disagrees with them. But there may be more recently(I haven't read all the movie novelizations or the YA novels since YA isn't really my thing). There is the Aftermath trilogy with a character who may secretly be him.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gallius_Rax#Last_stand_on_Jakku

Gallius Rax the Fleet Admiral was the secret figure leading the Empire after Endor, being the puppet master controlling Grand Admiral Rae Sloane. He in the books was a follower of the Dark Side, force sensitive(Palpatine senses his power and remarks on his force potential), was taught Sith teachings by Palpatine and was considered a sort of secret apprentice of Palpatine but wasn't given training and power like Vader. He was tasked with protecting the secret Dark Side Temple on Jakku. Later he was killed, but wasn't shot in the head or heart and we don't see his body blow up, so he could survive and if he did would be heavily disfigured, like Snoke. And there are similarities between them, and he gave Sloane the order to found the First Order(Which she did, also using the data and guides from Thrawn). Snoke also we know when he rose to power showed an extreme hatred of Sloane(Who "killed" Gallius Rax) and killed all of the people that also hated Gallius Rax leaving only Hux alive. And Gallius Rax tried to destroy the Empire and the New Republic as Palpatine had planned in the event of his death but at the last moment also shared his plan to rebuild the Empire as the First Order. As well he liked to keep a personal guard and child assassins who if they grew up, would be similar to Snoke's guards and Gallius Rax revered Palpatine so Snoke copying Palpatine's guards could be a mirror to that. So he is the best candidate, and his life parallels the known backstory of Snoke. But it might just be unintentionally similar or a fake out, and he could have been planned to be Snoke then they could just choose not to make him Snoke(Like how the Noghri and the Vong were originally the Sith species until that was changed). And Gallius may just actually be dead.

[RedRose]

Disney will NEVER go grey/ambiguous. That's what RP or FF is for lol. But still they could just not "spoil" interesting villains with comedy or cheapo arcs. It is obvious to me that Rey has some deep seated anger from her parents and Kylo and her life and would fit nicely as grey+

[Tolvo]

Well keep in mind, Lucas explicitly stated the Light side will always win, is always right, and that he wanted Star Wars incredibly black and white. So going against that is going against the setup of Star Wars and original creator, which would piss off a lot of fans. And since they often want to do a war between morally good rebels and an evil empire throughout Star Wars, it's kind of hard to make any aspect of the Empire morally ambiguous and any aspect of the people trying to bring freedom to be bad. They did it a bit in Rogue One with the rebel faction on Jedha being termed extremists, but otherwise mostly that's just in books where they show people within the Empire who were tricked by the Empire into serving evil. And Clone Wars had the Force Gods show up, tell Anakin his future, they died, and the goddess of the Light Side, the Daughter, became one with the Force and was set to make sure the Light Side always wins in the end, while the Gray Side, the Father, didn't come back nor did the Son, the Dark Side, and Anakin and Obi Wan and Ashoka were teleported from the Force realm back to the physical galaxy and had their memories erased. And that was George Lucas approved, Mortis was very weird.

Hux though from the inception was not really set up to be tough or very serious, he was set up to be the "Butt monkey" from the start of the First Order. If anyone is getting redeemed out of the First Order I'd guess him, if he gets pissed at his treatment and turns sides probably not for ideological reasons but because if he doesn't he'll just be abused and probably killed.

[TheGlyphstone]

Well, yeah. We're just spouting pipe dreams here, of a world where Disney use their purchase of the franchise to tell a new story that built on the work of the old one instead of just safely retreading it. We had Plucky Rebels vs. Evil Empire because, as you said, that is the core narrative of Star Wars. Unfortunately, Disney intepreted that as meaning they can only tell Plucky Rebels vs. Evil Empire, with any possible side stories either being irrelevant or serving solely to support that core narrative.

It's another reason why we will never see a live action Thrawn, because he was expressly written to be a competent, three-dimensional Imperial character. He just doesn't fit in the mold Lucas forged and Disney has adopted.

[Tolvo]

Well a part of why I bring it up is that The Last Jedi was them trying to tread new grounds, do away with all the prophecies, bloodlines making people super powerful force users and giving them important destinies, a lot of very overplayed narrative devices that were in Star Wars though kept the rebel underdogs vs great empire part(Though that one was impossible to remove without just getting rid of the First Order somehow, or going back on the entire New Republic navy blowing up which I wish they would). If Disney listens to the vocal people angry about The Last Jedi, we're going to see a lot more retreading, a lot more playing safe. I'm not saying everyone who didn't like The Last Jedi is criticizing it poorly, but a lot of the most vocal criticisms are about things that were too subtle for them, or are of new ideas and the removal of overdone fantasy tropes that are found throughout Star Wars. And it often seems like said people are not going to be happy with anything they get so I hope Disney won't cave to that stuff. Certain things I'd like to see them listen to(Like criticisms of pacing for instance and working more on the way overly blatant science flaws like a projectile moving slower than the Death Star laser but hitting planets millions of lightyears away within minutes without using hyperspace). And it kind of worries me that we'll see more of where companies try to please every single person and end up pleasing no one.

It at times seems like people don't know if they actually want something new or actually want something old. The Force Awakens was too much of the same for many, The Last Jedi was too new for people. It asks where the balance is of old vs new.

While The Last Jedi was a massive success, got massive fan acclaim, and massive critical acclaim, it is still possible they're worried about pissing off the very vocally angry people(Especially after all of the harassment sent to the crew members and people working on The Last Jedi).

[TheGlyphstone]

You say that, but I just don't see it - that's the problem I have. The Last Jedi tried to have its cake and eat it to by claiming to burn the sacred cows while still keeping them alive and healthy. For all its claims and imagery of forging new narratives, it doesn't really deliver. To whit:

-Rey makes noises about abandoning the Jedi path, but takes the Jedi sacred texts with her and was still trained by Luke, at least to the extent Luke was trained by Yoda. She's still a Jedi in every sense of the term, just one who is learning from books instead of a master-apprentice relationship.
-Kylo loves to monologue about killing the past, but he's still obsessed with being Vader's successor. Snoke might look down on the Sith, but he re-enacts the Rule of Two right up to the sudden yet inevitable betrayal by his apprentice.

With regards to the movie itself, it tries to be a remix of Empire Strikes Back as much as The Force Awakens tried to be a remastered A New Hope.
-The salt planet battle happens at the end of the movie instead of the beginning, but is unquestionably designed to evoke the Battle of Hoth.
-Kylo and Rey's confrontation in the throne room where he asks her to join him and together they can rule the galaxy as father and sonship-teased male/female leads is such familiar ground I was half-expecting Rey to get her hand cut off, right up to the imagery of the extended black glove.
-TLJ ends on the same downer note/low point as ESB did, with the rest of the galaxy failing to show up at Leia's rally in unity against the First Order. If Johnson had really wanted to break new ground, this is where he could have done it - have them think no one is coming, then by ones and twos all sorts of different fleets from Mon Calamari to the Hutt Cartels appear. Boom - you can keep continuity with the official Republic fleet being blown up while still getting an entirely new fleet of volunteers to fight back.

It was still retreading safe ground, just with sprinkles and window-dressing to give the appearance of being something innovative. I'm not entirely willing to blame Johnson on his own for this - he's still working for The Mouse and Kathleen Kennedy had overall control between movies, but I think a lot of the criticism would have been muted if he actually committed to one side or the other instead of attempting to thread the needle and get the best of both worlds.

[Deamonbane]

Say what you want about the prequels, but they show a lot of things and people in a very ambiguous light. Sure, the bad guys are bad, but the Jedi aren't saints either and intentionally shown at the end as being on the same coin as the Sith, with Mace Windu's mirroring of Palpatine's 'He's too dangerous to be kept alive'.

[TheGlyphstone]

True, and Anakin's entire Fall is presented as a string of increasingly dark shades of grey - the road to the Dark Side is paved with good intentions, so to speak. First it's an altruistic desire to intervene proactively against slavery and injustice, then it becomes personal.

[Tolvo]

Snoke doesn't follow the Rule of Two, he has had other apprentices Ren is just his greatest one, and the way Snoke words his talk of other apprentices makes it sound like they are still his apprentices just that Kylo is his focus. They also may be the Knights of Ren, as Kylo led them, before that they followed only Snoke and under Kylo still followed Snoke and are Dark Side followers and are talked about like they're force sensitives, though we still know very little about them. I'm guessing they'll be the enforcers for Kylo next movie. And Ren is the representative of what is wrong with focusing too much on bloodlines. He's very much a character showing the flaws in his behavior not promoting them as good. Ren is the antagonist.

The Jedi texts may not be adhered to, she may read them and disagree with them, or read them and take concepts but still forge her own path or even not set up a new order at all. And since those books are allegedly from the founding of the Jedi order many thousands of years ago(Not quite sure what they're made of that they survived since in Disney books that is the Jedi Order homeworld and those books are like 10,000 years old) and may be quite a bit different from the Jedi Order we saw in the prequels as well.

And yes there are still similarities, that's a part of what makes me concerned a lot of people don't know what they want, The Last Jedi was still in ways playing it safe. If they wanted to go all in they'd have been far more drastic, and not let the Jedi Texts survive, they'd have completely set into motion things that can't easily just be changed and left methods for the story to later be changed if things didn't work out. And the less safe routes they took people still hated for even mildly subverting tropes and having meta commentary on the series.

Also no I'd call Anakin pretty evil in Attack of the Clones and beyond, once he butchered all those children and did that one man genocide of a village he was pretty much too far gone. It's a part of why I find it so weird that the prequels either make Old Ben more of a liar or are retconning his comments in A New Hope, because Obi Wan and Anakin don't get along at all and disagree on everything and Anakin is a huge hateful asshole most of the time. Old Ben talks with a fondness you probably wouldn't have for your overly aggressively hateful coworker who killed almost everyone you love and genocided your entire religion and butchered children. Especially after you personally almost died to him and had to leave him burning cut apart on a lava planet. Especially when Anakin falls to manipulation from Palpatine that either means he is the dumbest person around, or that Palpatine can just mind control everyone around him which is really boring. I'd say Anakin was never gray at all, as a child he did get into fights but as an adult he was basically a genocidal serial killer who wanted to control everyone around him.

[Deamonbane]

https://youtu.be/v_YozYt8l-g

Despite everything, Obi-Wan loved Anakin. He raised him from a kid. They weren't coworkers. They were family. The fact that this is lost on you makes a lot of other stuff suddenly make sense.

[Tolvo]

Please stop making personal attacks towards me and false assumptions about me during a discussion. As I've said I try to be understanding and patient with others but it is annoying when this keeps being done to me. Things like this aren't lost on me, I think they're flat out badly done. I don't want to start bashing the Prequels but I do consider them the worst films in the Star Wars series(Though I did like them as a child). So when trying to discuss this with me and using what I consider to be terrible movies as a good standard isn't really going to be convincing to me. You might as well be using Jar Jar Binks to me as an example of a well developed well written and interesting fresh character that everyone loves to me.

[Deamonbane]

You're right, and I apologize. It won't happen again.

[Deamonbane]

Though, and with no personal attack intended, the prequels get better each time I see them. Revenge of the Sith is easily in the conversation of the best film of the franchise.

[Tolvo]

They seem worse to me every time I see them. Though I don't think anyone is stupid or less of a fan if they like them, and I think a lot of talented people worked on them and that there is a lot of unnecessary hatred towards them and the people who made them(While I don't like what George Lucas made with the Prequels I don't think he destroyed Star Wars or my childhood). A lot of the people who worked on it are very talented, and I think there were a lot of factors that impact how it turned out(Going so heavy on green screens really impacted the ability for actors to get into character and a lot of interactions and limited them using the set to chew up the scenery) as well as it getting released when the graphics were getting kind of good but not great, so it looks incredibly dated now and back then still looked a lot like a video game(Certain parts still look good, like Grievous but the average Clone Trooper looks so fake). I kind of wish we could get a better executed redo because the Rise of the Empire and the political aspects I think are very interesting and that if they just executed it better I'd find them to be far more solid of films.

But in general I don't like to insult people for the media they enjoy and don't feel like I am superior because I like only "good" things(Note I like plenty of things considered to be crap).

[TheGlyphstone]

And yes there are still similarities, that's a part of what makes me concerned a lot of people don't know what they want, The Last Jedi was still in ways playing it safe. If they wanted to go all in they'd have been far more drastic, and not let the Jedi Texts survive, they'd have completely set into motion things that can't easily just be changed and left methods for the story to later be changed if things didn't work out. And the less safe routes they took people still hated for even mildly subverting tropes and having meta commentary on the series.

Yeah, that's why I think it got the hate it did. It's easy for some people elsewhere on the Internet to say that it was massively, near-universally popular except for a tiny minority who doxxed/spammed/bought/faked a disproportionate amount of outrage, but I think the reality is that it was in fact a tremendously controversial movie, and my belief is a large amount of that is because it refused to fully commit. An entirely new direction to the story would have been a giant risk, and Disney is famously risk-averse, so they couldn't truly tell a new story. Instead they half-assed it, resulting in them infuriating both the Star Wars purists who insist on total fidelity to the legacy and infuriating the...divergents? I dunno...who were sick of the same old stories and wanted to see something new done with the potential SW contains.

[Deamonbane]

I'd agree with you about the graphics needing a redo, but other than that, I have only a couple of corny lines of dialogue to complain about (Some of Anakin's interactions with Padme were stilted and cringe-worthy). However, the same can be said about a lot of aspects regarding the originals as well.

[Inkidu]

The thing I'll point out about the Prequels is that everything people did not like about them was absolutely present in the original trilogy's scripts. It's just by the time of the prequels Lucas didn't have peer review. I also have never walked away so dissatisfied with a movie as I have with The Force Awakens. I mean the moment to moment stuff was fine. I thought Rey was an abysmal boring character given to a perfectly good actor. I thought Fynn's arc held the most promise and thought the climax would have been ten times better if Rey had been defeated by Ren and then Fynn had managed to fight him off (not win, but fight him off). That would have put Rey's skill into a more human context and been a natural progression for Fynn. By that final showdown there was no tension. It wasn't some Luke V. Vadar fight. I knew the second Rey stepped into the ring she was going to win, because she wins at everything. It's established by the movie. Fynn was much more up in the air and tense.

But that's not what happened and I ultimately left the movie theater more interested in the bathroom and feeling like I'd just left some kind of subliminal message machine designed to check off all the little buttons on my nostalgia center. *Shrugs* It felt like a Star Wars movie designed by a committee.

I've not seen the Last Jedi, and I don't want to. Ultimately I learned that sometimes you can't force the things you loved as a kid to grow up with you and that's okay. Maybe it'll inspire someone else or at warn them of what not to do. Who knows?

[Tolvo]

But mentioning that things were present in the original trilogy, but that you didn't like things in the Force Awakens that were present in the original trilogy(Inexperienced people being unable to fail and winning all the time and defeating far more experienced people) comes off contradictory. Luke Skywalker(George Lucas's self insert, named Luke S) was a farmer who flew in atmosphere in training ships and shot massive rats.  He fought Tusken Raiders at times so he isn't new to combat but easily gets outmatched by them. He went on to out pilot nearly everyone except Darth Vader who is considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in the Prequels, and matches the skill of the best of the Rebellion many of which die in the battle, Luke starts out as a fighter Ace. Rey however is an experienced veteran combatant raised by herself having grown up defending herself against the various criminals and thugs around her. She is not educated by others but has experience flying and spends all her free time training in simulations. She actually has more combat experience than a lot of the people she's fighting(Force Awakens is mentioned to be the Cold War going hot and that the First Order forces are mostly VR soldiers and pilots and haven't seen battle, such as Finn who had never been in battle before despite being one of their highest ranking skill-wise troopers). Rey is most skilled in melee combat, not very good with blasters, and is a fine enough pilot though often needs to rely on others to teach her and others to aid with piloting like Chewbacca. And Rey still fails quite a bit, she even gets captured, and as mentioned Ren was not trying to even win that fight he wanted to convince her and was incredibly injured. It was a battle of ideology to try and get Rey to turn not an actual battle of martial skill which Ren had the upper hand in. If he was uninjured or even just wanted to actually kill her she'd have died. He was very clearly the superior fighter(Though he himself is not very experienced with this, remember Ren mostly kills unarmed people or people with blasters, and he was the best student of Luke and killed literal children when he destroyed Luke's order. This is a guy who is also very inexperienced). And since it is the story of Rey you kind of expect her to not just die in the first movie in a trilogy she is a main character in. You don't kill Luke Skywalker off in A New Hope.

Though it is still a very "Play it safe movie." Disney was under a lot of pressure to do this and as soon as the Disney purchase was announced everyone thought it would just be a repeat of the prequels(Which were at a point where they were very reviled due a lot to the critical discourse changing because of viral discussions and things like RedLetterMedia, though personally I think while there was a lot of good criticism about the prequels in those reviews that they are really overly harsh and feature a lot of personal attacks). And they didn't want to get a repeat of all of the hatred towards the prequels(Which were popular with kids but hated by many adults, critics at first were happy with it but as public opinion soured on them they too got harsher) and copied a lot of the original trilogy. We'll probably see a much safer third movie than The Last Jedi due to this sort of stuff, similar to how Return of the Jedi was made to play it safe in response to all of the backlash to Empire Strikes Back(The reveal of Darth Vader as Luke's father, the downer ending).

EDIT: Removed the part about Luke and Leia, that was outrage from Return of the Jedi that I accidentally put in there. About the Star Wars shipping communities of the 80's being angry with the sibling reveal as Luke and Leia were the most popular ship, though the original script for Empire had Anakin Skywalker(Who was a different character from Darth Vader at this point) reveal Luke's sister, who was not Leia. George changed that out after.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-cronin/luke-and-leia-kiss_b_8817166.html

[Inkidu]

But mentioning that things were present in the original trilogy, but that you didn't like things in the Force Awakens that were present in the original trilogy(Inexperienced people being unable to fail and winning all the time and defeating far more experienced people) comes off contradictory. Luke Skywalker(George Lucas's self insert, named Luke S) was a farmer who flew in atmosphere in training ships and shot massive rats.  He fought Tusken Raiders at times so he isn't new to combat but easily gets outmatched by them. He went on to out pilot nearly everyone except Darth Vader who is considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in the Prequels, and matches the skill of the best of the Rebellion many of which die in the battle, Luke starts out as a fighter Ace. Rey however is an experienced veteran combatant raised by herself having grown up defending herself against the various criminals and thugs around her. She is not educated by others but has experience flying and spends all her free time training in simulations. She actually has more combat experience than a lot of the people she's fighting(Force Awakens is mentioned to be the Cold War going hot and that the First Order forces are mostly VR soldiers and pilots and haven't seen battle, such as Finn who had never been in battle before despite being one of their highest ranking skill-wise troopers). Rey is most skilled in melee combat, not very good with blasters, and is a fine enough pilot though often needs to rely on others to teach her and others to aid with piloting like Chewbacca. And Rey still fails quite a bit, she even gets captured, and as mentioned Ren was not trying to even win that fight he wanted to convince her and was incredibly injured. It was a battle of ideology to try and get Rey to turn not an actual battle of martial skill which Ren had the upper hand in. If he was uninjured or even just wanted to actually kill her she'd have died. He was very clearly the superior fighter(Though he himself is not very experienced with this, remember Ren mostly kills unarmed people or people with blasters, and he was the best student of Luke and killed literal children when he destroyed Luke's order. This is a guy who is also very inexperienced). And since it is the story of Rey you kind of expect her to not just die in the first movie in a trilogy she is a main character in. You don't kill Luke Skywalker off in A New Hope.

Though it is still a very "Play it safe movie." Disney was under a lot of pressure to do this and as soon as the Disney purchase was announced everyone thought it would just be a repeat of the prequels(Which were at a point where they were very reviled due a lot to the critical discourse changing because of viral discussions and things like RedLetterMedia, though personally I think while there was a lot of good criticism about the prequels in those reviews that they are really overly harsh and feature a lot of personal attacks). And they didn't want to get a repeat of all of the hatred towards the prequels(Which were popular with kids but hated by many adults, critics at first were happy with it but as public opinion soured on them they too got harsher) and copied a lot of the original trilogy. We'll probably see a much safer third movie than The Last Jedi due to this sort of stuff, similar to how Return of the Jedi was made to play it safe in response to all of the backlash to Empire Strikes Back(The reveal of Darth Vader as Luke's father, the downer ending).

EDIT: Removed the part about Luke and Leia, that was outrage from Return of the Jedi that I accidentally put in there. About the Star Wars shipping communities of the 80's being angry with the sibling reveal as Luke and Leia were the most popular ship, though the original script for Empire had Anakin Skywalker(Who was a different character from Darth Vader at this point) reveal Luke's sister, who was not Leia. George changed that out after.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-cronin/luke-and-leia-kiss_b_8817166.html

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't follow this at all. This seems to miss by a wide margin and I'm more confused than anything.

[TheGlyphstone]

Might not have been at you. There's at least 2-3, maybe 4, different sub-topics going on here interwoven between different people.

[Tolvo]

Hmm? No I was responding to Ink. I was addressing specifically things he mentioned. Though the part about them playing it safe in the future and the past is more broad to the conversation of the sequels.

[Inkidu]

Okay in the interest of being fair I'm going to have to do something I really detest doing in discourse, but it's the only way I'm going to manage your post. I'm going to have to fisk this post. I apologize in advance.

But mentioning that things were present in the original trilogy, but that you didn't like things in the Force Awakens that were present in the original trilogy(Inexperienced people being unable to fail and winning all the time and defeating far more experienced people) comes off contradictory.

I didn't say that. I said, "Everything that people hate about the Prequels was present in the Original Trilogy. Some of the widely known criticisms of the prequels were:

Boring political plot (Pre: Trade Fed, OT: Empire)
Gimmicky sidekicks (Jar-Jar, Ewoks)
Acting (Anikin, "BUUUT I WAS GOING TO TACHI STATION TO PICK UP SOME POWER CONVERTERS!"

My point was that people like to rake the Prequel movies over the coals for stuff like this, but it was always in George's wheelhouse to do it. What changed was he didn't have peer review this time around. A lot of people helped shape Star Wars, if anything the Prequels should be a cautionary tale about the need to editing not trying new things.

Luke Skywalker(George Lucas's self insert, named Luke S) was a farmer who flew in atmosphere in training ships and shot massive rats.

Yep, bullseyed some wamprats in his T-16, but all that's used in the movie its presented was that the small target they were shooting for could be hit. Have you ever seen a movie called Sargent York? It's got a famous seen where he shows superlative turkey-shooting skills. Country boy knowing how to shoot trope, and it's a much bigger plot point in that film. I bet ten bucks Lucas saw that film. Point is that the scene was establishing it can be done, and yes we all know Luke is going to land the shot because movies, but the movie does have one other guy try to make the shot to show it's not easy.

He fought Tusken Raiders at times so he isn't new to combat but easily gets outmatched by them.

Good bit of writing right there, because you know he didn't pick up a lightsaber the first movie in and duel Darth Vadar. That would have really been weird and inconsistent for a guy who got bushwhacked by Tusken Radiers. Good bit of writing.

He went on to out pilot nearly everyone except Darth Vader who is considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in the Prequels, and matches the skill of the best of the Rebellion many of which die in the battle, Luke starts out as a fighter Ace.

I don't think you have support for this point. By the end to the trilogy Luke's shot down 1 maybe 2 (memory's fuzzy) tie fighters from the gun seat of the Falcon, he got to the end of one long trench, didn't outfight Darth Vadar in a dogfight (Darth Vadar got shot out by Han Solo and because Han got the drop on him). Then he got his land snow speeder wrecked. It's a legitimate rebellion so who knows how good any of the other pilots are. The movie doesn't establish. The whole trench run was more a last hurrah to lay the torpedo in. I very much got the idea that they were all shooting for the trench trying to keep the Y-wings safe but they were full gas for that vent, no one was really stopping to engage the tie fighters. Then they were all fleeing, and he crashlands his X-Wing in a swamp. I don't think he does any meaningful flying for the rest of the original trilogy. The forest speeder section is right up his T-16 alley though.

To wrap up the Luke points though: So? I didn't bring him up you did. I made a deliberate effort to let Rey stand in her own movie without comparisons to anyone outside of her movie. This whole thing right here is way out of left field.

Rey however is an experienced veteran combatant raised by herself having grown up defending herself against the various criminals and thugs around her.

Let's be honest. Experienced, veteran combatant is an overly generous term that implies professional skill. She's probably a very good street fighter who in theory having been left there as a little girl had to have some one looking out for her in some capacity or spent most of the time sneaking and running. What your saying gives the implication she was taking down muggers well before her teenage years which I'm not going to say is true.

She is not educated by others but has experience flying and spends all her free time training in simulations.

Now, I only watched TFA once, and I'm sure I didn't fall asleep during it, but it would have been nice if you know the movie had showed this? Maybe there was a throwaway line? But I didn't hear it. I didn't see her spending a lot of time at a holo arcade or something, nor did I see an overabundance of holo arcades in her shanty town. Are you pulling from non-movie sources, because that's not going to cut it.

She actually has more combat experience than a lot of the people she's fighting(Force Awakens is mentioned to be the Cold War going hot and that the First Order forces are mostly VR soldiers and pilots and haven't seen battle, such as Finn who had never been in battle before despite being one of their highest ranking skill-wise troopers).

But Rey's theoretical junk-town simulators, those are way better than state funded ones. Now this is going to be a more a condemnation of JJ Abrams's bad directing "Mystery Box" method than Rey, because I'm not saying Rey couldn't have had some of this. We're all fans of a child of destiny trope, but because Abrams is a bad director and the only thing he has to keep people hooked is internal questions with no payoff we don't learn if Rey has any special heritage to justify this, we don't learn if she has. We also only see her take out of few people and never struggle in situations outside of her context.

As someone who holds held a brown belt in karate let me tell you. I could take you out with a bo, I trained for about two years with it, two days a week in class and several days outside of class. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, I'm saying it to provide context. I might pick up a sword, I know swords, but I haven't trained with swords. A competent sword master is going to kick my ass, unless... wait what if Rey got like a vibro staff and fought Ren the first time with it because when she tried to use the saber she found he was better at it in every way so she defaults to her strengths?

Nope people want to see a lightsaber fight, give 'em a lightsaber fight, just make her instantly good with an incredibly light, fast, amputation prone weapon (that in reality I found out would cause organic tissues to explode like a can of a overheated can of a aerosol, but I get why they don't do that).

Rey is most skilled in melee combat, not very good with blasters, and is a fine enough pilot though often needs to rely on others to teach her and others to aid with piloting like Chewbacca.

Mmm... she did way better than she had any right to with just slapping some duct tape on the old Mil Fal and putting her through some hardcore paces for having pulled it right out of the sand. Chewie makes everyone looked better, too. That's Chewie's job.

And Rey still fails quite a bit, she even gets captured,

Sorry to stop this at a comma but this is a really bad comma splice and I want to separate out the two separate-but-fused ideas. No she doesn't fail quite a bit. She fails very little. I get that you're not going to accept that as an answer, but she doesn't fail. I don't except failing to stay on Jakku as a moral, personal, or physical flaw of hers either. Everything she touches comes up aces. In fact her capture is the first point of vulnerability. The first point in the whole film where she actually has to rely on the skills and abilities of other in a meaningful way. I sat up thinking, "Oh boy, we're going to get to see the others step up and Rey's going to have her moment where she realizes she has to rely on other people and we'll get some genuine character growth--never mind she just learned the Jedi mind trick without even knowing it could be done.

At least Luke had seen that one in action at this point.

and as mentioned Ren was not trying to even win that fight he wanted to convince her and was incredibly injured. It was a battle of ideology to try and get Rey to turn not an actual battle of martial skill which Ren had the upper hand in. If he was uninjured or even just wanted to actually kill her she'd have died. He was very clearly the superior fighter(Though he himself is not very experienced with this, remember Ren mostly kills unarmed people or people with blasters, and he was the best student of Luke and killed literal children when he destroyed Luke's order. This is a guy who is also very inexperienced).

I feel I can tackle this one as the general fight scene. I've already detailed two ways I think this fight scene could have been better, one in this post and one previously, but again. He's not blooded but he's still better trained than her in the weapons they're using, and with the particular weapon he's using. Battle of wills is fine, and I get that he wouldn't want to force read her again, but he's still a man strong enough to stop laser bolts in the air with the force. He should be strong and skilled enough in the force to force-hold her in the air and monologue her and kill her at his leisure should he feel it's going nowhere, but Rey isn't allowed to have weakness so that's not going to happen. And that's kina boring that's why it wasn't my option one rewrite for that scene, but it's still possible given what's established in the movie. There are a lot of little things they could have done to make this fight a more humanizing experience for Rey but at this point I was totally divested (not un-invested mind you) of any care for her character arc.

And since it is the story of Rey you kind of expect her to not just die in the first movie in a trilogy she is a main character in. You don't kill Luke Skywalker off in A New Hope.

Of course not, but it wouldn't hurt her to lose a hand...

Though it is still a very "Play it safe movie." Disney was under a lot of pressure to do this and as soon as the Disney purchase was announced everyone thought it would just be a repeat of the prequels(Which were at a point where they were very reviled due a lot to the critical discourse changing because of viral discussions and things like RedLetterMedia, though personally I think while there was a lot of good criticism about the prequels in those reviews that they are really overly harsh and feature a lot of personal attacks). And they didn't want to get a repeat of all of the hatred towards the prequels(Which were popular with kids but hated by many adults, critics at first were happy with it but as public opinion soured on them they too got harsher) and copied a lot of the original trilogy. We'll probably see a much safer third movie than The Last Jedi due to this sort of stuff, similar to how Return of the Jedi was made to play it safe in response to all of the backlash to Empire Strikes Back(The reveal of Darth Vader as Luke's father, the downer ending).

Now we finally get to something that looks like a reply to my post. This is why I fisked this whole thing. Again I'm not going to comment on The Last Jedi because I didn't like TFA and I'm not in the habit of throwing good money after bad after adopting my general no hype, no pre-order, only the merits of the product and if I can get interest up for it philosophy of media consumption. So back to the nature of TFA. I get that they didn't want another Prequel. I think the movies aren't nearly as bad as people think and you have a lot of hurt adults who saw the OT as kids realizing you can't go home again. However, I stand that TFA isn't just a safe movie. It's a manufactured product. It's really endemic of the whole industry really.

You don't really have JJ Abrams's take on Star Wars (even though I don't think his unrestricted take on it would have been any better), you have a very careful and manicured and overseen set of Star Wars-shaped pieces put into a Star Wars shaped mold to make something that looks, smells, and feels like Star Wars but again left me feeling like someone had deliberately manipulated me by trying to push nostalgia buttons. I know this is easy to say, especially since it's so hard to escape corporate overlords in media, but I'd rather have the horrible flawed but honest vision of a creator than the perfectly manicured product of a corporate committee. I don't think playing it safe is what they did, and even if it was I still don't think it made and enjoyable movie.

[TheGlyphstone]

Fun bit of cameo trivia - the trooper that Rey mind controls to get out of captivity is played by Daniel Craig, aka James Bond.

[Tolvo]

I don't understand why you think me directly addressing your point was not addressing your point? you mentioned that the criticisms of the prequels were present in the original trilogy, then your criticism of Rey was present in the original trilogy.

Luke Skywalker does take down TIE fighters fairly easily, he does blow up the Death Star, he does fight alongside and against very skilled pilots. They talk about how the Rebel pilots are very skilled and how they're unsure about someone who hasn't ever flown even in space before taking part in the Death Star assault. And he does survive Darth Vader, he needs to be saved, but the person they treat as the best pilot Wedge Antilles even gets show and has to retreat. Luke does get help, but also shows his incredible skill. And Darth Vader just tears through everyone else but Luke. I never said Luke out flew Vader, this is another thing that is frustrating I use very specific language that people ignore to assume I mean something I didn't actually say. I literally said that Luke out piloted everyone EXCEPT Darth Vader, you read that as me saying he out piloted Darth Vader, the opposite of what I said. What am I supposed to do when people don't even read my posts?

I don't understand why lines mentioning Luke having skills such as the shooting womp rats is seen as a good explanation, but Rey talking about her own experience isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sarFZJl3h0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbfqFA30pDA

This is a part of why I keep having to repeat myself a lot, as I said early on I felt people missed things in the movie for one reason or another. And I can get why especially in The Last Jedi as it was far more subtle, but it kind of sucks to have to try and find youtube versions of every scene in the entire movie to show people missed a lot of things over and over. I've had the films up to double check to make sure my memory is correct, but I can't just send people copies of these movies. I keep specifying when things are in books and when they are in the films themselves. As I've mentioned, I think they films shouldn't need books to explain parts of them and they should be able to stand on their own, only bringing up books into when they have additional info for people wanting to know more details or where ideas come from and that they aren't new to Star Wars just the films.

And you did bring up Luke Skywalker, because you brought up that things in the prequel trilogy that people were critical of were still present in the original trilogy, and I brought up that the same is true for the sequel trilogy. The criticisms about Rey apply even more strongly to Luke(And to Anakin in an even greater way).

Veteran I'll concede was a word I should not have used, I was using it in comparison to those she fights but yes she is not a veteran in a broader sense only the old people really are and Phasma. I didn't imply she was taking down muggers who were adults as a young teenager or before her teenage years, she would probably have fought back against other people her age up until she was large enough to put up more of a fight, but they do establish she is experienced(Which again, I didn't say she was trained, I said she was experienced). Rey talks about how she was alone and how no one on Jakku cares for each other and how people are always trying to steal from and kill each other because it is so harsh, and we see scenes showing this. Rey also again beats up random thugs and people of that nature. While Storm Troopers are trained they still don't tend to have any real combat experience while Rey is untrained but does have combat experience. She doesn't have military experience(She doesn't even recognize the sound of TIE Fighters flying overhead and Finn has to grab her and pull her away before they blow up on Jakku).

Rey's flight simulations are something she mentions and we're shown them actually in her home. Rey's home is a down AT-AT, and she scavenges the remnants of Imperial forces and Rebel forces on Jakku, which includes Star Destroyers. This is where she gets her flight sims from, she is using military flight simulators from the Rebel and Imperial war.

I don't get why you assume I don't have martial arts training? I'm not an expert but I have been trained and I study martial arts in a historical context. And Rey doesn't fight like a person familiar with a lightsaber, she uses it similar to her staff(She even thrusts a lot with it in Force Awakens, and fights with it like a more of a cutting sword in The Last Jedi). Ren doesn't want to kill her and is trying to bring her to his side, and he was also show with Chewbacca's Bowcaster which is used as a running gag in the movie for how it just blows everything it hits apart and they show it is like a bazooka. Ren got hit with that in the abdomen, and is visibly bleeding and stumbling and keeps punching himself to fuel himself on through the pain. Even still he would have beaten Rey if he had tried to but didn't. And when you are basically toying with an opponent is a good time for them to overcome you.

I also don't get why you say that Rey doesn't fail and isn't allowed weakness, but that she was vulnerable and was captured. Does she fail and get captured and show weakness, or does she not? She also is often mentored in how to do things even by Finn who is not exactly an experienced knowledgeable guy but he does know the First Order well. Rey didn't even really know how to fire a blaster and Han Solo gets the drop on her and Finn easily. To mention the mind trick, the Force powers Rey uses she gets told about by others. Han and Ren mainly tell her things about the Force and she duplicates them similar to how Luke does, she also screws them up at first and uses them on Storm Troopers. Who again, are not force sensitive and who we see get mind tricked in the original by Old Ben. Ren is her semi-teacher and even Han is at this point until The Last Jedi, it's why I brought up before that the only new power she just gets is resisting Kylo Ren's mind probe but they mention it is because she's strong in the Force, so most Force users we've seen could resist this who are main characters. Probably a padawan weak in the Force couldn't I'm guessing but who knows, any Force power at all might resist it we have no idea if he's every successfully used it on a Force user.

I also never said TFA wasn't manufactured, it's a big budget movie nearly all of those are. I specifically talked about how they were playing it safe and were focusing on crowd reactions and fandom reactions, which is not making what they exactly would want but what they think will upset the least people and will excite the most people. I'm not under some illusion that movies are made for free by tons of people who only do it for the art of it, these are paid people trying to make money who are under a massive corporation. And I don't like JJ Abrams I think he's a boring director personally(Which is why I'm concerned for the next movie, since I consider The Last Jedi a massive step forward but worry that JJ will take a step backwards). There's a lot of other directors I'd rather see on the next Star Wars movie, hell give it to Taika Waititi(Though he is working on episodes of the Mandalorian).

And keep in mind again, I haven't said others don't watch the movies but have had it accused of me, I have not talked down to others but have had that done to me, I've been lied about a lot in this thread and accused of things that I've never said or even accused others of, I've mentioned when people have lied after mentioning something as a fact that they then claimed was untrue even when it was. Saying things aren't said that are makes the statement untrue. Now, saying those things aren't clear enough or enough explanation for each person individually is more of a subjective thing that can be discussed. But whether or not a character actually said something or did something in the films is a matter of fact. I'm considering leaving the thread simply since it's been so hostile and people are not actually addressing a lot of points and it feels like people aren't even reading my posts(Some are I should mention, and some are reading some parts but not others).

As well people are applying criticism to the sequels only that they don't also apply to the other trilogies which have those same problems. If someone said Rey is a mary sue, and then that Luke is too. Sure I can understand that more so, going by anything that defines Rey as one would include Luke(Unless it is gender based). If a movie is bad for having x, but another movie isn't bad for having x, it's noticeable very easily. Now if a movie is bad for having a lot of things including x, and another is good despite having x, that's another matter. But we should apply things equally and not let our own liking of certain things bias us(I've mentioned a lot of flaws of the Sequels and how I think there are a lot of things to criticize).

EDIT: Also if people do want to argue that Kylo Ren was uninjured by being hit in the abdomen by Chewbacca's bowcaster which sends people flying and functions like a bazooka, especially that Kylo Ren didn't even bleed from it. As I mention he does bleed, they dedicate multiple shots to him hitting himself in pain and struggling to move(He is limping at points and having to focus to walk and move around, despite which he still dominates the fights), and show his blood in a snow and at one point the camera goes down and the entire shot is just Kylo Ren's blood, snow, and his boot.

[Fierbali111]

I think the problem here is that everyone is typing full on essays and by the time you reach the end you forget the first half of what was written and go down an endless spiral of confusion. Sure, no movie is without its flaws and i think what bothered me much more with the last jedi over the force awakens(which i would put roughly at prequel level) was the side plots that dont lead anywhere(capain phasma anyone), strong social overtones(free the race animals but lets ignore those slave kids), and the lack of a competent and imposing villain( Hux is a laughing stock that gets thrown around in front of his own men and kylo ren has frequent temper tantrums ie console and helmet smashing)

[Tolvo]

I think the problem here is that everyone is typing full on essays and by the time you reach the end you forget the first half of what was written and go down an endless spiral of confusion. Sure, no movie is without its flaws and i think what bothered me much more with the last jedi over the force awakens(which i would put roughly at prequel level) was the side plots that dont lead anywhere(capain phasma anyone), strong social overtones(free the race animals but lets ignore those slave kids), and the lack of a competent and imposing villain( Hux is a laughing stock that gets thrown around in front of his own men and kylo ren has frequent temper tantrums ie console and helmet smashing)

I do think the length of posts can contribute to this. But some have very directly quoted and responded to parts while showing they did not read the part they're directly quoting and responding to. So for those instances, it doesn't really fit.

Hux I don't mind I'm fine with him being a joke, Kylo I think is shown to be serious enough but is supposed to be very immature, Phasma though I do feel similarly about I think they really have not used her well. In The Force Awakens her barely mattering, The Last Jedi they do use her more so but also I'm hoping somehow she survived(Her armor is made out of a starship hull, it's Palpatine's Naboo Yacht, though also Finn was able to expose her face with just a riot baton). Phasma is set up to be very competent and one of the best of the First Order compared to Hux who is very inexperienced. But Phasma only gets to shine a bit in The Last Jedi I wish we saw more of her and in The Force Awakens she's criminally underused.

I think a part of the competent villains part will also hopefully be fixed with the Knights of Ren in the next movie, since they're mentioned but not fully explained and are shown and are Dark Siders who followed Snoke and were led by Ren. And are shown to be in intimidating armor with weapons(Similar to Snoke's guards, who were competent but ended up losing). Snoke was competent but like most Star Wars villains, died due to his overconfidence(This is how a good majority of main villains in Star Wars die).

Animals are a bit easier to release into the wild and leave to their own devices, children are not. They need care and aren't capable of fighting people off like the large animals can. But I do think the animal escape could have been condensed a lot. I'm not sure how they could save the children since it would require them dropping them off somewhere safe with people ready to take care of them, bringing them back to the doomed Resistance ships seems really dangerous. Though maybe they could have split up, Finn going back while Rose with the kids takes another ship to find somewhere to drop them off. Or reverse since while Finn is more of a main character Rose was the one who was going to actually shut down the tracker on Snoke's ship. But both had information important to the task so it's who could have explained their part best to the other(Intricate electrical and mechanical details, or the layout of the ship).

EDIT: I do reread things over even after posting and a lot before, I will say if Ink didn't mean that Kylo Ren wasn't bleeding by his comment on him not being blooded I'd believe him if he said such. Blooded does have multiple meanings and we were talking both about him being injured and his experience, and different uses of blooded apply to each. Blooded in combat meaning having had a first experience in combat, or blooded in combat mean someone has drawn their blood. Either those or Ink mean Kylo's blood wasn't important but that's a point I was making is that bloodlines and concepts of genetic superiority and Eugenics don't matter and Kylo is the heir to Vader so I don't think that was the meaning.

[TheGlyphstone]

The criminal under-use of Brie Larson is indeed one of the biggest problems I've had with the franchise. TLJ was slightly better than the total waste that was TFA, but not to a significant degree.

[Tolvo]

I sort of wish they'd focus more on the main cast at times. Sometimes I think certain things are over explained or overshown(Like Rose's sister could have been a much quicker scene and audiences would easily still understand it and Rose's motivation). Though the Original Trilogy wasn't devoid of this. Grand Moff Tarkin who is the actual main villain of A New Hope is barely in it, doesn't meet most of the heroes and only talks to Leia, then just blows up. Vader people associate as the main antagonist because he's in it more and more direct, but Tarkin is actually the one in charge of everything and giving the orders. And he's played by an incredibly famous and respected actor so it's not like he was played by a nobody and wasn't talented. They do get better about this later but I always found it strange how Tarkin is barely in the movie and doesn't even seem to know about Obi Wan or Luke or Han, only Leia.

I do like that they keep Phasma mostly in the armor outside of TLJ where her face is partially seen, I often get annoyed when they have to constantly show the actor/actresses face especially in combat situations when they should have their armor(Though I understand doing this to remind people who they are, and to actually promote the person and show them on screen). I feel like a lot of battles they could have put her in but just didn't, just have her leading the Storm Troopers at the points where they are winning in battles, have her fight alongside Kylo rather than just him leading the Storm Troopers when she is the leader of the Storm Troopers.

[Rustic]

Wow, tried to skim this thread, but there's a lot to read here. So I'll just jump in with my two cents. My apologies if it's been covered.

When it comes down to it, I think the sequels suffered from one major factor. Time. I was so excited to hear Disney had aquired Star Wars—up until I heard there would be a movie every year. Right out of the gates I knew there were problems when JJ abrams tries to campaign to get the movie's release date pushed. Disney compromised by keeping it in the same year, just at the end of the year.

Simply put, there wasn't enough time to plan, and there wasn't enough time to make a proper story. Yes Marvel somehow makes it work, but Marvel is an exception. No other studio does this well. Even then, not all their movies hit the mark.

I enjoy the new Star Wars movies, to a certain extent. You can tell they feel rushed, the stories not refined nor polished.

The Force Awakens: I enjoyed it, as one would a popcorn flick. In the end that's what Star Wars is, but my biggest issue is the same as many others—but with a tweak. I hate that the story took a 180 to the familiar. What do I mean by that? Yes I didn't like that it was just another death star... but more importantly it diverted from the story—which was to find Luke Skywalker. They get the plans to find Luke Skywalker, but then it becomes about Rey being captured—and then blowing up the death star...er I mean starkiller base. Eventually Luke's Skywalkers map became less a plot device, and just a replacement for the Death Star plans. It could have been about a race between Rey and Kylo to find and kill/warn Luke. They also introduce a missing piece of the map... which is conveniently in R2D2 when he decides to wake up at the end... I rolled my eyes at this point.

Rogue One: I enjoyed this film very much—as a Star Wars fan who enjoys war films. That's what it was to me, a war film set in the Star Wars universe. So I can certainly understand the many people who don't enjoy it, because Star Wars was always more about adventure than about war, despite having "war" in the name. I didn't like the main characters much though, and hated how Jyn was a passive character only until the second half of the film—but it was still enjoyable.

The Last Jedi: Ooof, where to go with this. First, I hate the toxic fans mostly for the hate they give this film. I didn't like the film, but I had to take a step back from the hate bashing that came along with it, and especially when they turned against the actors, like the woman who played Rose. She didn't deserve it, she just wanted to be in a Star Wars film. Blame the writer for her character, not her.

I also didn't hate that Luke was different—and quite enjoyed it. I don't get the fans who complain about him not being him. People are allowed to change over the period of 30 years, especially if all your students are killed and your academy destroyed.

So I don't have the usual gripes most of the fans have. But I still didn't enjoy it. What I hated was this was clearly a response to the backlash of the Force Awakens. "They wants something different, so I'll give them something different." I think even on the press junket the actors pushed their buzz line of "things won't happen the way you think they will happen." So they gave us a traitor who--remained a traitor. A teacher who didn't teach. A bad guy who kills the "emperor" but doesn't turn good. It was more of a gimmick to me, and I just didn't get how that makes for a good story.

Then the lovers of the film have responded by "why do you hate it? They gave you exactly what you wanted!" How is the opposite of what's expected, exactly what we wanted? We wanted different. There are many places you can take a story—The Last Jedi was like the same, but just the opposite. They follow the same beats, but just turn them on their head.

Not to mention the writing was lackluster. It didn't feel like star wars, right from the beginning with Poe pretending he couldn't hear their transmission while he waited for the weapon to charge—then how he zipped around blasting all the turrets with ease—then the bombers with gravity (if the bombs were propulsion—why didn't they just launch them from far away?). So many things made me irk, like that purple haired woman who didn't tell them her plans because... reasons... then Rose and Finn who were able to get away... then the fact that they were being chased down—despite the first order having hyperspace capabilities... and I assume more than just a few ships? The jokes weren't landing, and then the Canto scene just made me think of the prequels. I sighed when they took those horses and stampeded everywhere... Time and time again, there were things that made me scratch my head and irk. I wasn't looking for these strange oddities, nor was I trying to analyze it while watching. I was trying to turn off my brain and enjoy a film—but there's only so much you can take. It just didn't feel like Star Wars, and that was the most disappointing part.

Han Solo - This one felt more solid to me. It wasn't a great film, but it was fun, enjoyable. It had a bit of trouble taking off, and I wasn't sure if I liked him as Han Solo—but it worked. But this was more what I was expecting out of Star Wars, a different story. Sure it was a bit of fan fare, showing us a story about a well known character, showing us how he got the millenium falcon and showing us the kessel run. But for what it was, it was well done. It even felt a bit like a western, and was solid in that regard. A bit disappointing that this may not get a sequel due to the backlash of the return of the Jedi.


In the end, if they had just taken their time with it—I think they would be a lot more solid. They all lacked a bit of refining, a bit of polish.

[CaptainNexus616]

My big thing was they had plenty of content to incorporate into new movies until they declared all that the "Legends" continuity and non canon.

I actually have a friend who was confused as hell as she skimmed some stuff that was Post Return of the Jedi in the Legends lore until I cleared it up.

I also have to agree the "Marvel Schedule" is also really straining the quality

Marvel can get away with several movies a year on the grounds they are pulling from decades worth of comics. They take something from the comics and adapt it to the history they already built up from past movies.

The guys in charge of Star Wars are trying the schedule, but are doing things mostly from scratch. (Yes Kylo Ren is basically inspired by Jacen Solo, and the Solo Movie does rely on still canon details). With the occasional snippet remolded to fit this new continuity.

It doesn't have to be a word for word adaptation, but they had history they could have used that was well received but opted out of it.

That said, glad Thrawn is canon and I'm still hoping we get a badass Old Mara Jade someday on the screen. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Tolvo]

Well they are still using a lot of the EU. Even the First Order is from the EU, as it is Thrawn's concept of the Empire of the Hand(And in the Disney books it was based on Gallius Rax's orders, using Thrawn's concept and knowledge of the Unknown Regions, formed by the leader of the Imperial Remnant Grand Admiral Rae Sloane). Before Disney I never thought I'd see Thrawn in anything but books and comics and the odd video game, now he's been the primary antagonist of a TV series and I wouldn't rule out him showing up in a movie in the future. Much of the EU is back in the books and the new movies are referencing the new books and comics quite a bit. Ransolm Casterfo was even originally in the script for the Last Jedi(They even wanted Tom Hiddleston to play him) and he's from Star Wars: Bloodline(The book explaining much of the politics and backstory of the New Republic and the Resistance). Darth Maul surviving and him being a crime lord from Clone Wars is now movie canon. A lot of what they talk about of fleets and organizations of the Empire are from the old EU. A lot of things are back and many are slightly altered but still similar to their original form. KOTOR is now loosely canon. Darth Revan even almost appeared in Clone Wars(Though George Lucas decided not to allow it, not because he didn't want Revan to be canon but he doesn't want any Dark Siders to have Force Ghosts). Republic Commando's events aren't canon but the squad appears in Clone Wars. Darth Bane and his story is still pretty similar and the Ruusan Reformation is back, much of the Old Republic main plots are the same(Even the Massassi are back though whether there is a full Sith Species yet is unknown). It's mainly the broad history that is different. But lots of characters are being made canon again(Dash Rendar is even back). They're more canon than they were under Lucas and Disney is being very specific and not making a difference between book and film canon and just considering them all canon(Other than ones marked as clearly non-canon, like the LEGO games).

[TheGlyphstone]

LEGO Star Wars will always be in my canon...

[Tolvo]

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ackbar_Tonight

At least in LEGO Star Wars Ackbar is still alive.

[Azuresun]

I'd agree with you about the graphics needing a redo, but other than that, I have only a couple of corny lines of dialogue to complain about (Some of Anakin's interactions with Padme were stilted and cringe-worthy). However, the same can be said about a lot of aspects regarding the originals as well.

One interesting thing about the prequels is that the bits without speaking are usually pretty good. When the actors aren't struggling with clunky dialogue that nobody could have made sound good, and can just express emotion. For example, there's a great bit at the climax of the first movie when the Jedi are seperated in the middle of the fight. Obi-Wan seethes with impatience, Darth Maul stalks up and down like a caged predator, never looking away from his prey, while Qui-Gon takes advantage of the moment of quiet to sit down and mediate.

Also, they gave us Backstroke of the West. :)

[Tolvo]

One interesting thing about the prequels is that the bits without speaking are usually pretty good. When the actors aren't struggling with clunky dialogue that nobody could have made sound good, and can just express emotion. For example, there's a great bit at the climax of the first movie when the Jedi are seperated in the middle of the fight. Obi-Wan seethes with impatience, Darth Maul stalks up and down like a caged predator, never looking away from his prey, while Qui-Gon takes advantage of the moment of quiet to sit down and mediate.

A lot of problems with the prequels that aren't rooted in technology I think would be solved with "Show don't tell." But much of the story is told to us not shown to us. We don't see a lot of little friendly moments between Anakin and Obi Wan, we get told they're good friends and they make action movie quips and get told they like each other, then are shown they are completely different people that don't get along and if Obi Wan knew about even half of the things Anakin does he'd hate him, and does when Anakin does them openly(Purging the Jedi). Same goes for the romance, Padme and Anakin fall in love purely based on physical attraction. With a lot of lines basically being from Romeo and Juliet and Anakin at one point kills an entire village and talks about how while doing so he didn't even see them as people, and that he killed everyone trying to run who were just innocents, and that specifically he killed all the children. That's not attractive unless Padme is also a really evil person, and just the announcement of the Empire was enough to make her flip on Palpatine so she doesn't strike me as uncaring about the lives of others.

Show Anakin and Obi Wan having actual friendly moments, show that they have anything in common, show them outside of battle helping each other. Show these sorts of things and don't just show us how they are not even remotely compatible and end up trying to kill each other. Dexter and Obi Wan seem more like friends than Obi Wan and Anakin. I'm struggling to think of anything positive Anakin does in Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith that isn't just personally advantageous to him or killing his enemies. He doesn't go back and free all the slaves on Tatooine, in general the Jedi don't do many good things more so just what they're personally involved in and what defeats their enemies. In the prequels they're pretty self centered and aren't very altruistic(Something they talk about in The Last Jedi). The closest I'd say is Yoda helping the Wookiees, but that is more war related and for the Republic with the Separatists invading the Wookiees. Yoda I imagine wouldn't want them enslaved but would the Jedi care in the prequel movies if a bunch of non-Sith related slavers came to conquer the Wookiees? In other material we see Jedi that do but we aren't shown this sort of behavior in the movies. The Jedi generally didn't want to even get involved in anything until they found out the Sith were behind it. They don't care about slavery but do care about defeating the Sith.

I think they could be good movies with more modern technology to deal with the really fake looking CG bits, with more editing of the script and someone with a focus on writing dialogue, and fully built sets and aids to help the actors actually get into a moment rather than them sitting in a blank room with an X painted on a wall where the head of an alien would be and "ACTION!" As well as someone who is going to work with the actors(George was really notorious during the prequels for not giving any acting directions and just telling everyone to wing it or that it didn't matter or not even say anything when asked questions other than "I don't know").

[pandorarose3]

I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.

Actually, I think you missed it, Rey took the texts with her they were in the drawer that Finn got the blanket from.  Remember what Yoda said "That Library contained nothing that the girl doesn't already have."

[Deamonbane]

One interesting thing about the prequels is that the bits without speaking are usually pretty good. When the actors aren't struggling with clunky dialogue that nobody could have made sound good, and can just express emotion. For example, there's a great bit at the climax of the first movie when the Jedi are seperated in the middle of the fight. Obi-Wan seethes with impatience, Darth Maul stalks up and down like a caged predator, never looking away from his prey, while Qui-Gon takes advantage of the moment of quiet to sit down and mediate.

Also, they gave us Backstroke of the West. :)

Agreed. The scene where Anakin is slowly coming to his decision to disobey the council while stuck in the council chamber is one of the tensest moments in the franchise and not a single line of dialogue.

I'd never seen Backstroke of the West, so thanks for that :D Not sure if you've already seen Auralnauts' Star Wars Parodies?

[Fierbali111]

Actually, I think you missed it, Rey took the texts with her they were in the drawer that Finn got the blanket from.  Remember what Yoda said "That Library contained nothing that the girl doesn't already have."

Yes it was already explained, though it was odd why yoda would blow up the place where they were kept, i mean what was the point?  also why did he answere luke in a way that could be easily misinterpreted(also for anyone that wasn't looking at the screen in the 2 second cut to the books).

[Tolvo]

As we see in Empire, Yoda loves to mess with Luke. He is quite a jokester. And it's supposed to make people think he really did destroy them until the reveal and you realize what Yoda meant.

[Dice]

I liked most of 8, but I fear 9 will be an overcorrection to "fix" issues that where not issues. Rey, regardless of what you think about her skills, being just a girl who happened to have the force was a nice touch. Now I hear that people involved in the project want to retcon that.

I know it's small, but it shows me why I will not follow the series as Disney carry it forward. The base is too regimented and static to allow something new to happen. The issues I hear about 8 are often that it broke the mold and people didn't like that. The issues about 7 was that it was just 4 all over again. Wtf? How does anyone win here.

The lore of the world is interesting, the concepts, the opportunity for building upon a complex world and reacting to the sins of the past. (Let's take children that have power away from their parents during the time of their life they need them the most, teach them to suppress emotions causing stunted emotional growth and then wonder how the hell this ever went wrong...) But I feel very little of the world can be explored to any satisfactory degree, because if you break the mold in any way...

That said, yea, the casino was a great show not tell about the seedy side the world has, but that needed to be done better. Also killing what felt like 99% of the rebels? Wow. That was drastic.

[Tolvo]

I wonder if a part of the problem with the casino as well could be rooted in them wanting to show abused child workers, but not adults. If there were adults there that they could sneak out or get to rise up rather than just releasing the animals to rampage, I feel it would thematically fit more as a resistance helping the people. The adults could also then watch over the children after the breakout meaning they don't have to find a new safe place for the children. As well that could set it up so that the adult workers could help replenish the Resistance ranks in the future. And set up the message of "Hey the Resistance is freeing people everywhere and these people are going to help fight the First Order."

I also feel like while showing corporations and industries having people selling arms to both sides and how war profiteering is benefiting these people who don't care about who is in power, they should have also showed New Republic politicians there and how they're very willing to work with these people for money. To establish similar to Bloodlines how the First Order can get away with so much being that many in the New Republic are either sympathetic to the First Order or simply are greedy enough to support them.

[pandorarose3]

Yea I never thought of Rey as being a 'Mary Sue' character.  The power of the force was always within her, it just happened that as Kylo was searching her mind he flipped a switch causing them to become activated?  Then when she pushed back and read his mind she probably saw his own training.  As far as knowing how to fight with a lightsaber, had people missed the fact that she beat the asses out of two guys earlier with her staff?  She grew up having to defend herself so I don't find it hard to believe that she could defend herself and even defeat him.  But her being the only woman he would ever want ever?  I find that one hard to believe though.  I mean come on didn't he know any females when he was a child or even a teen?  That is where I kinda pull the bullshit card at.

Yep Yoda was like that for sure, and basically destroyed the tree because Luke was being a pussy about doing it, after all the end of 7 the start of 8 showed us Luke having just standing after yet another attempt at destroying the tree it was his way of saying 'Hey dumbass when you going to learn to do what you set out to do.'

I liked parts of 8, if they would have cut the Canto Bite scene in half, as that clocked in at almost 45 minutes of filler, then they could have kept in the scenes they put on the blue ray that they said they had to cut due to time.  I mean Rose and Finn spent more time running around looking at things like WOW rather than for the codebreaker, then the fater(can't remember the spelling) chase scene was WAY too long too I mean Rose was about 'Oh the ship is running out of fuel' but you guys had time to play the fuck around.

Also, time made NO fucking sense in 8.  In space, the resistance had only 24 hours of fuel, but yet Rey was on Act-oo for 3+ days????  That made absolutely no sense.

Then the whole Snoke created the bond I call BS on because if he did then they wouldn't be able to still connect after he died, that would have been gone I think he just took and knew about it and took credit for that shit to fuck with them.  Sorry, Snoke, you are not that smart.  Then there is the whole not telling the plan to any one thing on Holdo's part.  Made her a major bitch.

Don't get me started on the boomer scene.  I mean WTF?  Why were they so fucking close together?

But aside for that.  Anyone in the US, or where you can get the Super Bowl on TV, ready?  I can't wait for the first teaser trailer and the title to finally be revealed for episode IX.  It is the ONLY reason I am watching.

[TheGlyphstone]

I never thought Rey was a Sue of some kind, because all her milestones were ones Luke hit in his first movie. But that also meant I didn't really care about her or her story, because she was simply walking in the footsteps of a more interesting character and hitting the same requisite story beats. Finn's story was far more interesting to me in Ep7, Rey was just...there.

I liked parts of 8, if they would have cut the Canto Bite scene in half, as that clocked in at almost 45 minutes of filler, then they could have kept in the scenes they put on the blue ray that they said they had to cut due to time.  I mean Rose and Finn spent more time running around looking at things like WOW rather than for the codebreaker, then the fater(can't remember the spelling) chase scene was WAY too long too I mean Rose was about 'Oh the ship is running out of fuel' but you guys had time to play the fuck around.

Also, time made NO fucking sense in 8.  In space, the resistance had only 24 hours of fuel, but yet Rey was on Act-oo for 3+ days????  That made absolutely no sense.

As I had mentioned in my first post, this was what hurt Ep8 for me more than anything else. It felt like three fragmentary scripts stapled together, except someone forgot all three were running on different internal timescales.

Don't get me started on the boomer scene.  I mean WTF?  Why were they so fucking close together?

Poor formation station-keeping was a far smaller flaw for the boomers compared to their very existence. B-Wings and Y-wings exist. Y-wings in particular were a staple of the Rebellion forces, particularly in the heavy bomber role. The whatever-they-were's were a new design that managed to be inferior to an existing design...unless it was a major plot point that the Resistance was so cash-strapped they had to buy out someone's failed prototype design instead of getting real starfighters, it's just bizarre.

But aside for that.  Anyone in the US, or where you can get the Super Bowl on TV, ready?  I can't wait for the first teaser trailer and the title to finally be revealed for episode IX.  It is the ONLY reason I am watching.

Star Wars Episode IX: R. Johnson Is A Talentless Hack, Signed JJ. Abrams

[RedRose]

Kylo is the obsessing type LOL. I can see him fixating on Rey like forever, since he didn't have someone already.

Canto Bight, agree.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I hate most translated names in Star wars (and Harry Potter, ew TOM JEDUSOR).


https://www.thelocal.fr/20170504/star-wars-force-awakens-star-wars-characters-in-french

The stuff above is very very triggering ;)

[TheDarkness1123]

I found they were very rough. It's hard to relate to Rey as she's pretty unstoppable, feels no fear, and has no real attachments to anyone. She also outclasses her teachers( Han and Luke, who both then die soon after) within minutes, showing no need to improve on anything really, even all the jedi texts (which she never even glanced at) which were then blown up by yoda, maybe as a nod off in an attempt to destroy what the old movies and characters represented.

Finn i found was much more relatable, and it was unfortunate to see him reduced to even more of a gag in the second movie when he showed major character development from being a coward wanting to run from the first order, to then face off against kylo ren in a 1 on 1 lightsaber duel in order to save his new friend. With the actions he took, you could see the fear and hesitation in his eyes and the incredible will it took to push forward and overcome them, something greater than fancy force powers will ever be.

I have to agree with everything Fierbali writes here. I found it also so sad how the aftermath of Hans death was handled with Leia hugging Rey after they come back all the while Chewy just walks past. Sure, ignore Hans 30 years or so long friend. Also in the Last Jedi Chewbaca doesn't comes immediatly with Rey to greet Luke and we get literally just one scene about Hans death. The rest of the Luke acts like Han wasn't a his best friend for years and the father of his nephew. For me Star Wars died with "The Last Jedi", at least until I hear that one of the upcoming movies is worth watching.

Love the rest of Star Wars. I think the first six movies were great and I also like the CGI series at least from what I've seen so far.

[Rustic]

I don't get the Mary Sue argument. A character can be perfect — and still carry a story. The problem is likability. I don't much care for Rey, which to me that's the problem. People try to pin point why, usually pointing to the fact that she's perfect and can do anything... which is only half right.

There are so many characters out there that are considered perfect, yet people enjoy them. I really like Captain America, and it's honestly hard to find a flaw with him in any way, shape or form. Look at the first film of his, he has no growth as a character. Sure he was weak physically, but he certainly wasn't weak mentally or morally. Yes at one point he figures being a show act is helping the troops and almost gives up trying to get into the fight, but then gets coaxed back into that desire. Aside from that, he's morally perfect and has no character arc. As with the rest of the films.

The same with Gladiator. Maximus has no character arc, and he's perfect as a character. Morally good, fighting for what's right, strong, smart, strategic, and he's super bad-ass.

So why does it work for them and not for Rey? Is it because she's female and we have different societal expectations when a character is female vs male? I'm not sure about that, but I do know that she doesn't resonate with me. She was a bit likeable in the first film, especially because she had this endearing doe-eyed attitude towards Han Solo and Luke Skywalker as legends... but in the second film that went away for obvious reasons.

I think because when you're a perfect character, you need what's called a linear story-arc. This is when the character doesn't grow, but instead is oppressed somehow, and makes those around them grow. Gladiator, for example, has Maximus being the moral center, but he becomes a slave, and everyone around him is only about gold and power, or survival—but he changes their minds and makes them join him to fight and do good. Captain America is a bit the same, especially as the films progress, and people join his ranks because they believe what he's doing is right.

Rey did change Luke's mind... but it was done in a way that it seemed more like his story rather than hers. Same with the first film, she influenced Han Solo I believe (it's been a while), but they attempted to give her a story arc (wanting to stay at Jakku) which just made it muddled.

Also for her, perhaps the problem was she learnt too easily. I don't mind that she used a mind trick despite not being taught it (I'm sure she's heard stories), which would show she's strong with the force. Yet it was when she fought Kylo Ren, someone who destroyed Luke's temple and is an apprentice... and when she just learnt on her own how to fight in the second movie by fighting a rock... that's when it was too much for me. Yes she may have fought with a stick before, but it's stretching it a lot.

In the end it's not that she's a perfect character, but it's that she's not oppressed as a character, and things come too easily to her with little struggle. She can be a perfect character, but she needs a big struggle, something we can relate with, and several characters she would change around her.

Or just give her a proper story arc...

[Tolvo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf0qZLK8l-Y

I mean, regarding her fighting Ren, Finn did stand up to the severely wounded Ren with a lightsaber, and Finn managed to cut Ren's lightsaber arm deeply before having his spine cut. So someone who lost to another Stormtrooper in melee who is less skilled and experienced than Rey in melee combat(Though he is more trained) was able to even further injure Ren before he fought Rey. Luke's Order also keep in mind Ren was the best of them, as far as we know the others might not even have had any combat training. They may have been even younger than Ren. They weren't even old school Jedi Knights and the person who would be the most trained of them all is Ren since he's related to Luke.

I think Rey's arcs have been working fine, with her having her motivations change. Originally feeling her ancestry is important then learning it isn't. She goes from worshiping the past to try to work on creating a better future. She gets knocked out a lot, fails plenty of fights, Han Solo gets the drop on her.

[pandorarose3]

Well, I think Rey's character was dropped down to just a toy for Kylo to mess with mentally by Ryan.

I think we can only hope JJ can make things better.  I just can't wait for the teaser trailer today and finally a reveal for the title.  The only reason to watch the Super Bowl for me.

GGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAA 4 hours of my life GONE with nothing to show for it.

[Azuresun]

I don't get the Mary Sue argument. A character can be perfect — and still carry a story. The problem is likability. I don't much care for Rey, which to me that's the problem. People try to pin point why, usually pointing to the fact that she's perfect and can do anything... which is only half right.

For me, Rey's a strong character and that's cool. It's certainly neat to see a woman getting to take centre stage in a main Star Wars movie. But....."strong" by itself doesn't make for much of a character, so she just felt to me like "Star Wars Protagonist Person"--like the first Star Wars OC that everyone (including myself, aged 17) creates.

[Rustic]

For me, Rey's a strong character and that's cool. It's certainly neat to see a woman getting to take centre stage in a main Star Wars movie. But....."strong" by itself doesn't make for much of a character, so she just felt to me like "Star Wars Protagonist Person"--like the first Star Wars OC that everyone (including myself, aged 17) creates.

True, I think the main issue with her is she's so one-dimensional. She shows compassion for her friends and for BB-8 by not selling him, but other than that, and being strong (and determined—to drive the plot), it's hard to describe her.

[RubySlippers]

Well the great issue is Hyperspace Ramming which is now Canon, devastating one small capital class ship to destroy the far bigger one and many of the supporting ships of the enemy had and now the poor writers have to figure out how to solve this why not just ram big ships or FTL weapons into each other. You have the Starkiller Base II ram into it five or six big ships manned by droids or has auto-piloted computers. Done. Seriously its a thing and there aren't a lot of fixes one use lots of small ships so there is no easy target but will the First Order give up its big ships, or you can develop any ramming defenses but that might not work too well or well the bad guys can go there ramming a big ship into a planet at a base could be better than parking over firing on the enemy so it now goes both ways.

I think it was a cool move but the implications are not going to influence warfare forever any ship with an FTL drive little fighters to big ship now have an ultimate weapon if they are willing to suicide themselves or risk a minimal crew to do what must be done. I suspect the safety features need to be pulled but other than that your a weapon a fighter on a full ram could take out a Star Destroyer on a good critical hyperspace hit. Kind of a big can of worms to open up if you ask me and one that you can't just put back in the can.

[Lomesa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adzYW5DZoWs

Teaser trailer for Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

The Skywalker bloodline redeems itself? Count me in. So killing Palpatine is the thing that Vader started that Kylo is going to finish?

[Deamonbane]

I'm fairly certain that Palpatine is only coming back as a ghost to influence someone, hopefully Rey.

Meaning that Ben is probably going to be called in to stop her, hence redeeming him and therefore being the Skywalker that is rising? Though in that case it would make more sense to name it 'The Rise of Solo.'

But that's the only theory I can think of. Not that many Skywalkers left.

[RedRose]

Ooooh that would be interesting. 

Just out of interest, Star wars music rofl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVL-zZnD3VU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUdcIF00ekg

[pandorarose3]

I can see Kylo Ren/Ben Solo being redeemed in this movie if he is willing to finally remove the 'Kylo Ren costume' fully from himself.  Because if you noticed in TFA and up until he is stripped down in TLJ Rey saw him as Kylo Ren.  But when she saw him without his cowl, helmet, and gloves she finally really faced to face with Ben Solo.  When he offered his hand in the hut scene he removed his glove and offered his hand as Ben Solo, probably unintentionally, but still did that.

Rey saw Ben Solo until he offered her everything including himself, but he had the Kylo Ren persona on him at that point.  He had pulled Kylo Ren back on fully.  Because if you noticed they really did focus on his hands.

In the hut removing the glove and showing his bare hand, in the throne room showing the offered gloved hand.  It was Ryan's way of saying one is Ben the other is Kylo.

SO if JJ continued with that thinking we might just get him stripped down again and back in Ben Solo's mind instead of Kylo Ren's.

[TheGlyphstone]

If Kylo does get redeemed, I'm 100.345% certain it will be shortly before his death. They've drawn the parallels between him and Vader too strongly, both in and out of universe - Anakin Skywalker redeemed himself and died in the process, Ben Solo will do the same.

[RedRose]

Unsure. He's young and it's Disney more than SW

[TheGlyphstone]

The Mouse didn't shy away from having a saber blade rammed through Han Solo's gut. So I wouldn't rule out the death of a main character like that, especially with JJ's fetish of retreading ground. Plus...he murdered his dad in cold blood. Disney is still big on wholesome morals, that sort of thing needs to be answered.

[RedRose]

Oh yes he's going to suffer if he wants redemption. You might be right about killing him though they don't want to lose too many fans LOL. Han Solo, well, he was passé (runs). Not holding my breath for what I would really like to see (grey Rey/coming to terms with liking both Ben and Ren).

[pandorarose3]

No Daisy actually stated that for redemption it has to be Ben Solo.  Also, I know all of the fans are still pissed about the death of Hans Solo BUT we have to remember that Harrison Ford back during the second movie said that he wanted Hans Solo to die then.  Then when he came back for the sequel trilogy it was under the condition that the character finally gets to die.  To have Kylo Ren kill him pushed Kylo closer to the dark side.

[TheGlyphstone]

I had mentioned Han, but let's also remember that in TLJ his pitch to Rey is basically "You are nothing, but working with me you could be something. Want to join forces and rule the galaxy? We can watch my gunners blow up your friends in their escape shuttles while you decide."

I think his death is all but assured, he's done too much bad over the previous two movies to walk away alive. I think it's possible he could earn Redemption Through Death first and die as Ben Solo instead of Kylo Ren, much as his grandfather died as Anakin Skywalker instead of Darth Vader.

[RedRose]

Please let it not be cheesy, silly and lovey Dovey.