Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, as advance note I do not plan to be GM (too much on my plate) but just check is there interest for a game which is set to high power since beginning but not quite epic cheese yet.

Basic idea is that there are legendary monsters (both good and bad) which exists in generic fantasy world. Each monster grew to intense power levels during their deeds/legends which have become even myths in the world before overgod Ao (creator of all DnD universes) sealed them up to slumber but not destroyed. Then aeons later and after the prime time of each these monsters overgod Ao releases them to answer a threat which is tearing universe itself apart. Work as guardians for it's existence and only reward being that these legendary monsters are once again loose upon the world which remembers them only in legends.

Overall all chars are 12th level but they all get Paragon Creature template for free and follow 'three path' gestalt system (but read how gestalt works in below). There could be other gestalts but none of them have three path system nor paragon template besides legendary monster PC's. Sources wise all 3.5 published sources would be allowed (plus some homebrew/house ruled stuff perhaps from my game which make less wanted/used classes viable). Overall each PC as solo is CR 30 and so in short they get no XP at all from any encounters unless they are CR 30 or so beings.

Anyways stat gen all use 32 point buy (you get lots stat bonuses already so no complaints :P). Paragon templates maxes all HD (plus adds +12 to each HD besides con bonus). We use pathfinder feat progression (so feat every odd level) and every 4th level get +1 to two stats added in (so +1 to Int and +1 to Str). Starting gold is only 200,000gp and only half of that sum is spend on a personal item (a item part of your legend/myth) and no money spend on tomes.

Now how gestalt works; there are several limitations on how you can build char and they go listed in below;

1) Cannot enter PrC which progress two careers (like mythich theurge) unless it happens inside single path.
2) One path must contain a spellcasting class or class which provides supernatural or spell-alike abilities (or psionic powers). This present mystical might of the legendary monster.
3) One path must contain either full BAB or skill class (fighter vs rogue), this present physical might/skill of the legendary monster.
4) You can multiclass only in single path.
5) Any PrC's entered must be finished before taking new one and between all paths you can take only one PrC at the time in progression.
6) One path is devoted store any racial or inherited/gained HD + CR or LA with case of template. Nothing else. You can take only single template besides inherited one (plus besides any racial/monster innate stuff).

Acceptable examples;

Vampire King
Path 1: Dread Necromancer 9/Master Vampire 3 (mystical might)
Path 2: Warblade 12 (physical might)
Path 3: Vampire Lord (+11 LA) Aasimar (+1) (monster stuff)

Mystic Guardian
Path 1: Sorcerer 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldricth Knight 2 (mystical might)
Path 2: Fighter 6/Ranger (non-spellcasting variant) 6 (physical might)
Path 3: Ogre Mage (5 HD + 7 LA)

Kingmaker
Path 1: Bard 5/Druid 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 2 (mystical might)
Path 2: Ranger (non-spellcasting) 7/Initiate of the Bow 5 (physical might)
Path 3: Janni (6 HD + 5 LA)

Note; took IotB levels before taking levels in fochlucan lyrist in path 1.

Non-Acceptable Examples;

Succubus Queen
Path 1: Rogue 2/Warlock 3/Ur-Priest 5/Hellfire Warlock 2 (Mystic Might)
Path 2: Paladin of Tyranny 5/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 3 (Physical Might)
Path 3: Succubus (6 HD + 6 LA)

Flaws: Is multiclassed more than in one path, has unfinished PrC before entering another PrC, has spellcasting more than in single path (paladin and hexblade both count for 'mystic power' paths as they have spellcasting powers). Also she progresses two PrC's in two different paths same time. Only okay is the race/monster choice.

Why these limits? To both help balance and also challenge creativity of players who are familiar with the system and curious to see what folks come up with. Overall it should give plenty of choices to go around but not go all out crazy. A 6th level divine or arcane spells is good sweet spot for legendary monsters as there should not be major game breakers there (if not count some race or template provided spell-alike abilities but those are few in number and limited daily use).

As said, not plan be GM but above is idea for potential GM who wants pick this up or likes it. Or we could have multiple GM game or try out a system where no one is GM and everything is determined by random dice roll (this idea has lurked in my mind long while now).

[Sain]

The basic idea sounds interesting alright. Here's to hoping that additional interest helps to attract epic level GMs.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Yeah, let's hope so. Overall there should be little to no actual dice rolling involved after chars are generated (as gestalt + paragon template combined makes very potent powerful mix). Idea is to have fun as when legendary monsters get freed they know some force (beyond Ao's power) is eroding the universe slowly but certainly and their release was designed as means to stop it. So it will be puzzle figure out what is erasing the cosmo while having old fashioned fun being epic legendary monster.

Naturally most opponents and foes cannot directly match against you (as each PC equals as CR 30 so only epic monsters or archfiends/demon princes avatars can even try fight vs you and you get worth while XP at all). The char gen just determines what you are and what your capable of. Also ruling on mystic and physical power to make somewhat balanced chars (albeit it's possible make weaker monster if mystic side has weak spellcasting class like paladin or ranger).

[indarkestknight]

I think Ao might be overgod of just Toril.

Also, anything that can cast holy word, blasphemy, dictum, or word of chaos at caster level 22nd or higher screws you over if they can get past spell resistance. Your HD is 12 at highest and except for the banishment clause, the spells don't allow a save. It isn't a death effect so deathward doesn't protect against it.

[Zaer Darkwail]

True, but paragon creature has it's CR + 25 SR. So total SR 55 even if they got only 12 HD. You would need minimum a CL 35 (or 31 if having spell penetration feats and assuming to get nat 20 on CL check).

[Kunoichi]

Hmm, this does seem rather interesting.  If you can get a GM interested in running the game, I'll definitely participate. ^^

[Zaer Darkwail]

Nice you joined in Kunoichi :). Anyways if there is enough interest but no GM I am willing run this game as GM myself but after over a week (so next week friday decision would come). You can already post brief description of ideas so others do not snag them :P. But hold on making actual full charsheets yet.

My own idea as player would had been following;

Dragon Emperor
Male tiefling vampire lord paragon, Incarnate (evil) 12|Monk 5/Dragon Descendant 7

[Sain]

I went ahead and wrote a brief prelude to bio the moment I saw this thread. I simply cannot get enough of evil overlord/big bad boss characters...

The original bogieman

Bogieman, the ghost tailor, the dark stalker, the dread kind, the reaper, the fear itself, people have given my existence many names, yet the names written down during the course of history have further and further diverged from the truth. It has been said that over time stories will grow bolder as they are exaggerated by each generation of new bards and lorekeepers. Sometimes it seems, the opposite will occur when those passing down the words deem their story much too disturbing to be told as it is or to be documented and immortalized on any stone or parchment.

They paint me as the stuff of nightmares that will come out during the dark to steal away the bad children or attack those who venture into the forbidden woods when there are no sounds to be heard at night. Some then claim I am a simple incarnate of death coming to lead them to afterlife or some forlorn king of a ghostly empire from beyond memorized time. I see how only the smallest seed of truth has remained of my memory in the world.
I was king Eidolon, the firstborn to the royal line of Israfil who ruled thousands of years over the elven empire of their name. I was the most beautiful son a mother could hope and the most powerful heir a king could desire, yet, for the twisted and tormented soul I was born with. all the gold, love and power in the world held no meaning. A night of lust would only deepen my craving to feel my love, holding a masterfully made blade would drive me mad to know the person who made it and ruling over my kin left me no choice but to find out who they really were. I learned the darkest of magic to consume my kingdom whole. I chased the halls of the castle to catch my little sisters who would not understand the need to have their souls ripped out. I confronted what army my father and brothers could muster when they thought I meant to hurt them. I raided each room in the countryside cottages to make sure no poor child would be left separate from their true king. They all joined me, one by one.

I could understand then, my psyche was calm even as thousands of souls raged against their eternal prison and clawed at the walls of my subconsciousness. I was not afraid, rather I desired nothing more than to feel their agony and rage. I opened the gates and let it all flow through me as one rapid of madness. To each individual song I listened to over and over again and to me they will sing for all time.

Even those who know my full story believe that this hunger defines me and that my identity is one of a monster. Yet, I like to think that the vortex of souls that converges on myself has finally brought sense and reason to myself. They cast me contrast that I require to remind me of my significance.

Don't really have the books on me but the gist was taking Caller in the darkness as the monster/race class then maybe experiment with some psion or wizard + master of the unseen hand (since telekinetic thrust depending on the interpretation could scale quite alright with that paragon feature). Well, psion version would require a slight house rule to work. Then throw in some martial class (sword sage or warblade) for the melee part. In essence something akin to a dark/ghost version of Gilgamesh :D

[Snake]

I'm interested! I'll have something up by tomorrow or the next day at the latest.

[indarkestknight]

Ideally, I'd like to play an invisible stalker with rogue as my martial path and swiftblade as my mystic path.

Not sure the invisible stalker's la would be low enough to allow for that, though; it doesn't have an official LA.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, in case of these (like dragons) I would follow HD or CR (whichever is highest between them). So 8 HD would allow +4 LA worth templates.

[Kunoichi]

I think I'd give the Invisible Stalker +4 LA, myself. ^^; Pixies have +4 LA and have at-will Greater Invisibility, which is slightly worse than an Invisible Stalker's natural invis, and also get spell-like abilities to make up the difference.  It seems like it would be a fair LA assignment to me.

Hmm.  It's too bad Sea Hags are Monstrous Humanoids, rather than regular humanoids.  I was thinking I could tack on the Half-Nymph and Mirage Mullah templates, to make a sort of terrifying-yet-beautiful, fey sea witch who lived on an island and lured sailors to their doom.

It would make for an awesome legend, and I could have built the island with the help of the Stronghold Builder's Guide...

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, it says 'any humanoid creature' in both templates so would allow monstrous humanoids allowed.

[indarkestknight]

Except that isn't how types work. Monstrous humanoids do not count as humanoids and vice versa. If that was so, one of the psionic charm person's augments wouldn't say you can now charm monstrous humanoids. Monstrous humanoids are exempt from hold person and charm person, can't use enlarge person, etc.

Edit: Of course if you're GM you can change how monstrous humanoid functions via Rule 0, but RAW, monstrous humanoids are not under the umbrella of "any humanoid".

[Kunoichi]

I think that he's saying he'll allow these specific templates to affect Monstrous Humanoids, rather than making a blanket change to how the Monstrous Humanoid type works.  Which I'm grateful for, though I think I'll try looking through the books a bit more, to see if there's some way of building the character without having to resort to rule 0. ^^;

[Zaer Darkwail]

Yeah, Kunoichi is correct. I would make specific allowance to apply templates to the monstrous humanoids (not otherwise change how monstrous humanoids differ from normal humanoids). But we see can Kunoichi find desired base creature which to apply templates in.

Just reminder despite what combination of templates or base creature you use, you do not go past 12 HD. So you can play a very young red dragon (10 HD) with +2 template added to it.

[indarkestknight]

Actually there's a full breakdown of LA for the ten core true dragons, chromatic and metallic, in Draconomicon. According to table 3-21 on page 143, a red wyrmling is the equivalent of an 11th level character. A very young red dragon is the equivalent of a 15th level character.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Oh! Well, that case then players can play only wyrmlings and it feels bit anti-climactic for legendary monster to be baby dragon :P.

[Kunoichi]

Well, there's always the option of taking a large-sized creature and adding on the half-dragon template.  You could be a half-ogre from Races of Destiny, for example.  LA +2, no racial HD, add on the +3 from half-dragon and then you'd have +7 left over for another template.  Just enough to fit in Monster of Legend, perhaps.  That would certainly result in a monster with appropriately draconic stats.

[Sain]

Oh right things have LA in addition to the hit die. Need I reconsider my core concept with using the Caller in the darkness? It had 11HD and 9CR, but dunno if there would be some additional LA there.

[Kunoichi]

You could probably make your core concept work, but you'd have to pick a different monster to use.  Ghost is actually a pretty common combination with the Master of the Unseen Hand prestige class, for example, and at +5 LA, you'd have plenty of room left to pick a base race and an inherited template for your character.

[Sain]

Alright, I think I'll go with something entirely different though. Don't want to do injustice to the awesome art piece and there's just so many fun things to play in a game like this.

Some sort of sphinx or lion like creature might be fun, or a flying sentient sword.

e. Oh damn only now realizing what comboing them templates means. Too much playing standard races, never tried these monstrous things before.

[Kunoichi]

A gynosphinx is ECL 12, and has well-rounded stats and some rather interesting spell-like abilities, if you'd like a sphinx character. ^^ A flying sentient sword will be a little more tricky...

[Sain]

Looks nifty, hovering over sphinx psion right now. How do you know the base stat bonuses from a sheet like that though? I thought that it's assumed the creatures have gotten extra stats from somewhere in addition to whatever their levels and race gives so how can one determine where the racial bonuses are :?

[indarkestknight]

Racial bonuses are base stats -10 for even stats, base stats -11 for odd stats. (Paragon template is very weird in that it makes all your even stats odd and your odd stats even. I don't think any other template adds an odd number to your stats.)

So! I'll use gynosphinx and paragon gynosphinx as examples.

A gynosphinx has Str 19, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 19. Her racial modifiers would be Str +8, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +8, Wis +8, Cha +8.

A paragon gynosphinx has Str 34, Dex 27, Con 28, Int 33, Wis 34, Cha 34. Her racial modifiers would be Str +24, Dex +16, Con +18, Int +22, Wis +24, Cha +24.